The little I know

I have no opinion about medical cannabis. But recreational, oh yes. The OP wanted to address this from a Torah perspective. I will try to keep to that.

There is not a question that marijuana is a mind altering substance. If it was as benign as a slice of cucumber, there would have never been discussion.

Question #1. Is there a heter to alter one’s mind? At all times, a Yid is obligated to be an oveid Hashem, whether in the midst of learning, davening, and even going through the mundane parts of one’s daily existence. While lofting away under the THC laden smoke, it is a tough sell to say that one is aware of HKB”H. The euphoria one experiences is not the product of ‘ אז תתענג על ה, but a chemically induced neurological state. That is not to be confused with Avodas Hashem. I have heard some young people claim to “learn Gemora better when under the influence”, but that is so absurd is laughable.

Question #2. Is there a threat to health? Great question, though most people first provide the answer they want, then go backwards to justify it. There is a very different toxicity from marijuana than most other drugs. There is no risk of overdose. The degree of impairment while “high” is both different from other drugs, and less dramatic. It does not normally trigger getting wild. We can list many other things it does cause. But it is important to examine what it does do. Research indicates it is a serious gateway drug. It impairs reaction time, making driving and operating machinery a risk. It affects a great many internal organs, and is stored in fat cells as well as those making up many organs and glands. The MJ remains in the cells for periods up to several weeks, and its effects at the cellular level continue until it is somehow excreted. It can impair fertility. I have met people whose pancreas was affected, and are now insulin dependent diabetics. I have met people whose voice and other gender specific characteristics have changed because of impairment to their glands. If tobacco smoking poses risk to the lungs, MJ is several hundred times more dangerous. Considering the mitzvah of ונשמרתם מאד לנפשתיכם, MJ poses a huge problem.

Question #3. Is there anything wrong with being high? The Rambam specifies that mitzvos, including learning and davening, that are performed while intoxicated are not mitzvos at all, and are actually abominable.

Question #4. If marijuana is not addictive, is it less dangerous that alcohol and tobacco, both which seem to be quite widely accepted in the frum community? The problem is the word “addictive”. If one is looking for physical dependency, that would be characterized by tolerance and withdrawal, no. But addictive means much more than that. Becoming accustomed to dealing with life by escaping into a world of another brain state is actually quite terrible and frightening.

East 12th:

I am open to hearing other approaches to anything, including mental health. There is a serious problem with the discussion with regards to interventions based on lifestyle modification and the array of supplements. Simple problem. There is very close to no research that indicates any efficacy for this. There is good reason to believe that poor nutrition contributes to medical issues, and included here are psychiatric ones. When we engage in the conversation that excludes genetics, biochemical disorders, and the complete ban on medication, we have crossed into territory that is unsafe and poorly supported. There is much anecdotal report about this or that helping for various conditions. Some of these have even intruded into mainstream psychiatry. However, research has not come up favorable.

Some examples. Remember St. John’s Wart? It was heralded as the newest breakthrough to treat depression. So much so that it was found in the major mainstream psychiatric journals, and submitted for research. It was found to have negligible effects, not enough to have clinical use. There is also a major handicap to the industry that produces these vitamins and supplements. There is very little funding to conduct proper research. So either shoddy, unprofessional research gets done, which can easily be refuted by normal science. Or one resorts to anecdotal data, which may be interesting but not informative to the scientist. There have been numerous crazes and fads in this industry that have failed to yield enough data to support the suggestions of miracle cures. Unfortunately, it is only the pharmaceutical industry that is regulated, and can recoup the funds expended in conducting scientific study. The food market, including the supplements lacks that. Money talks.

The production of the many supplements on the market is also a troublesome subject. There is no regulation that assures quality of a product. Every so often, outside studies are done to verify the veracity of the products. A label that attests to containing “50 mg.” of a certain vitamin or supplement may have little to do with what the package really contains. I have spoken to people who work for companies that manufacture these products who have told me that the absence of regulation even bothers them, as they claim no one really knows what the pills contain.

With too little verifiable proof that a substance has any effect, and little reliability that a product is real, there is a severe problem here. To the degree that these packages contain the claimed ingredients, who knows what the side effects are? How about the incompatibility between them or with medications?

I cannot engage in debate, and probable should not do so in the CR. But the role that nutrition and lifestyle play is probably relevant, as it would pertain to anything in the medical field. But the leap to the liberal attitude toward treatment with regimens of supplements is beyond logic. Yes, deficiencies in nutrients can be problematic, and should be treated with supplementation. But as pseudomedical interventions – I see it as a craze and sometimes a costly one.

fem377:

I beg to differ. BPD cannot be cured. With intense therapy, the person suffering with it can learn to control reactions enough to manage well. There is nothing magical about 7 years or any other time limit. One of the prominent features of BPD is significant resistance to input from others, and this sets the therapy option back several steps. Yes, I am familiar with DBT and Marsha Linehan. I am not quarreling with her method or its results. I am making a statement about BPD. Living with someone that has it is gehinom. If there is adequate motivation to get better, some sufferers of BPD can do quite well. I assume, from your comment, that you fit this category. But this benefit ends up serving too few. I would join you in wishing this help for so many others.

Bipolar disorder probably cannot be cured. I agree. There are exceptions to that which would be an academic study, and the CR is not the forum for that. Bipolar disorder is a label that contains many variants. And it is often that medicating this condition (or these conditions) is a challenge, even for the best psychopharmacologists. It is guesswork, and some make better educated guesses than others. It is not an exact science. And an issue that is a potential complication in the psychiatric field is that compliance with medications is a potential problem, more so than other aspects of the medical world. It is not uncommon that someone is taking medication successfully for years, and then it stops working, requiring a change in the medication regimen. But short term positive results in Bipolar disorder are far more likely than in treatment for BPD (which does not respond to medication at all).

There is quite a bit I do know, and I have no problem sharing it in the CR or elsewhere. I accept arguments and disagreement.

After slumber, back to the front page of the CR.

Another thought.

When someone wishes to fulfill a mitzvah, it is often that the really frum someone will don a jacket and hat, wash their hands, and put on a gartel. After all, a mitzvah is G-d’s territory, and requires proper preparation and attire. Has anyone ever seen a rebbe do this in front of a class? I know of those rebbeim that return from the washroom, and demonstrate how they wash their hands and recite the brocho of Asher Yotzar wearing a hat. According to those who claim the potch to be such a great mitzvah, would they do this before engaging in it? I suspect that not, proving that this an emotional reaction on their part, and is not a true mitzvah. In fact, I believe this to be the same situation with all forms of discipline. that have been wrongly made into the mission of chinuch, at the expense of teachinig children to love Torah and Midos Tovos.

It is quite possible that the heter meah rabbonim occurs far more often, but it tends to get very little publicity. It is a process that involves a sense of victory and shame at the same time. On one hand, the divorcing husband manages to win the get war, and slips out of the bond that stopped him from remarrying. But it is also a nuclear option, and makes the husband appear to be a mean, narcissistic person.

I have actually see a few of these. I would NEVER allow my child to consider marrying someone who received his heter to marry by the heter meah. Firstly, (I am not a posek and am not qualified to establish halacha) I frown on the way the signatures are obtained, with very few of the signatories knowing anything at all about the case. In cases I observed, the document was carried into a kollel, and made its rounds collecting signatures of yungerleit who were uninformed about any of the facts of the case. I would not consider my signature cheap, and struggle when someone else does. Secondly, there are opposite extremes of situations that result in seeking heter meah. One extreme is a wife that refuses to accept a get out of stubbornness, such as impossible demands. The opposite end is the husband who refuses to give the wife anything, and since the affairs cannot be settled, she will not accept the get. This husband then turns around and seeks the heter meah rabbonim. These situations are extremes, and their are always unique variables to a specific case. But all too often, the situation of heter meah stinks.

It may be more common than we think. Just lots of cases stay below the radar.

For the most part, heter meah rabbonim is used as a threat to leverage some power to the husband.

Joseph:

Anger and shalom bayis. It depends on how the research is done. Our community is afflicted with a dreaded condition. It involves the whitewashing of too much. Part of this is the “discovery” process in investigating a shidduch prospect. We tend to ask only certain people, such as a neighbor, a Rov inn a community, a former Rosh Yeshiva or Menaheles. The responses are some version of a rosy picture, without a shred of detail. You know, just garden variety, prepackaged answers. It really takes a greater effort to seek people in other positions where some more pointed questions about the above subjects can be answered with objectivity. Personally, I have done that, and I have been steered correctly every time, B”H. I have asked the challenging questions, and have gotten objective answers. This can be done if we invest the time, and dismiss the pat answers that tell us absolutely nothing. The Chofetz Chaim addresses this subject openly, and notes that even the most damaging information is not considered lashon horah, and that one must do this type of exploration.

Joseph:

No one was questioning why some are motivated to withhold the info about mental illness. The question is whether that is okay according to halacha or yashrus. I doubt that most commenters here believe it is proper to keep such secrets, and I still bet that anyone confronted with such a situation would want to keep it secret.

For those who speak about bipolar disorder or borderline personality disorder, please recognize they are two completely distinct conditions, and rarely co-exist. Bipolar disorder is a treatable illness, though its fluctuations make it difficult to effect a 100% remission. Borderline personality cannot be treated with medication, and its treatment through therapy is partially effective at best. Being married to a borderline (BPD) is one of the greatest nisyonos one can have. Hats off to anyone that can tolerate this life. Approximately 80% of all borderlines are females. There is a wealth of information online about BPD. It is majorly difficult to live with a borderline. It is not fun having the condition either. I have heard people say they wish one could detect BPD in blood tests, so that those with it could be excluded from shidduchim altogether. I know this does not sound nice at all, and perhaps discriminatory. But once you see how these marriages turn out, you will likely agree with that. BTW, there is no blood test for BPD.

Answers to these two heavy questions:

1) There is really no purpose for a rabbi in the Reform movement. However, someone needs the identity as the leader of the flock. In reality, there is no flock, just club members. But there needs to be a CEO. This masquerades as religion. It’s basically Purim all year round.

2) The title rabbi connotes nothing. Many reform rabbis know less than the average frum kid in kindergarten. Some of us have actually observed the challenge between a 3-4 year old kid from a mainstream frum family and a Reform rabbi. These fellows get terribly embarrassed. What qualifies them for a title is having a tad more knowledge than the next fellow (or gal).

OP asked; “Which gedolei poskim today…..”

My inquiry is simple. Such questions, involving pikuach nefesh should be answerable by anyone who is a posek. Pikuach nefesh is not a specialty area. When I hear someone ask “Which poskim” about a non-specialty area, I wonder whether the individual is shopping for a psak. That is greatly different from asking a shailoh. I wonder what the OP is asking.

SH:

The issue here is that we are not dealing with Yaakov Avinu. The idea of “Lo Mes” is something unique to Yaakov, and was never hinted to for anyone else since creation of the world (with the exception of those that the gemora says never experienced misa). So the “alive” myth is completely unacceptable, as per Torah and as per logic. To believe that is complete hergesh. I am uninterested in the efforts to provide afterthought logic to rationalize this.

As for the being oveir an issur, this is the expression used by several of the poskim who dealt with the Kever Rochel shailoh. They did not conclude that it is better not to, but that the issur is clear and cannot be subjected to compromise.

I cannot speak for the Chid”a or other poskim from the Sephardic world. It is known that many of their piskei halacha differ from the Ashkenazic prevailing halacha. I have an issue with someone who concocts his own heter for something, and then tries to justify it with a basis from poskim who paskened their halachos for their own communities. These same Sephardic communities were not under the jurisdiction of Rabbenu Gershom, and technically did not accept the takana against marrying more than one wife. With the greatest of regard for the Chid”a, this is a case of apples and oranges.

To all the great Chachomim in the CR:

Please interpret the following two Mishnayos, both from Pirkei Avos. You might say they are repetitious of each other, and the duplication is for emphasis. Or you might recognize two different messages. Without a doubt, there must be many ways to explain this. I am looking to use this as a means to clarify the subject question of this thread.

עשה לך רב קנה לך חבר
אבות פרק א

עשה לך רב והסתלק מן הספק
אבות פרק א

Your thoughts please.

The insanity of this subject still behooves me.

Chabad chassidus has a history of making emunas tzaddikim into something quite extreme. They have been accused for generations, long before the birth of this last Rebbe ZT”L as deifying their rebbe. I possess testimony to that.

I can give anyone here a blanket guarantee that my Avodas Hashem will NEVER improve the tiniest iota if i were to believe that the Rebbe is Moshiach. It would improve if I were to engage myself in following Taryag Mitzvos in a stronger way, more kavvanah, etc. Limud Hatorah is precious, and it does not include the hours and days of time spent in fabricating explanations to justify the obsession that forms the subject of this thread and another one like it. I provide my guarantee that wearing a Yechi yarmulka will not hasten the geula. I also would oppose the singing to the chair stuff, regardless of whether during davening or after, as it represents a diversion from the focus on HKB”H to a bosor vodom. To a greatly smaller degree this exists in other factions of Klal Yisroel, other chassidishe groups, and even some yeshivos. It is a bizayon and chilul Hashem, and our generation should stop replacing Kavod Shomayim with aggrandizing its leaders.

GH:

My issue with this subject is not whether their claim has merit or not. My point is that this is a terrible diversion of energy that needs to go into bring Kavod Shomayim to the world, and into this silliness. I would accept the \rebbe as Moshiach, if it turned out to be him. But I will not waste my time trying to prove this or making my life into a promoter of the idea. It is more important to engage in Torah, Avodah, and Gemilus Chassodim. And I believe the Rebbe ZT”L himself would agree.

Joseph:

There have been gedolim that possessed areas of expertise, without having attended college. The Skverer Rebbe had been involved so intensely and over so long a time that he gained considerable knowledge. I knew the rebbe, and while he was ready to impart advice, he was not beyond recommending these suggestions to the doctor. He never wrote prescriptions or performed surgeries. The Chazon Ish, having similarly gained hands on experience, was often able to access something we might call “Ruach Hakodesh”. And, while I do not personally know anyone who can do that today, I am not beyond believing that there could be someone holy enough today that we could say צדיק גוזר והקב”ה מקיים. Outside of their training, yes. But learned in this area, yes.

Our generation witnessed many rabbonim and gedolim completely outside their league with poor understanding of many mental health issues, including child abuse, domestic violence, mental illness, addictions, and others. Many proclamations made needed to be retracted, revised, and this multiple times. They are not infallible.

Lastly, there are many aspects to jobs, including location, tasks, training, work environment, wage, and more. I am trying to think of any Rov who is knowledgeable enough in all of these areas to be capable of giving advice. It is too easy to confuse approaching a Rov for his brocho with seeking his advice. I refer you to a wonderful article on that subject penned by Rabbi Yaakov Horowitz in one of the last issues of Jewish Observer.

A relative of mine moved a few years ago. Prior to making that decision, he approached several rabbonim, rebbes, etc., and asked advice. None knew a bit about the location where he was moving, not the community, schools, etc. They were unable to answer. He collected their brochos, but that was all.

drastically edited

DY:

You wrote “Why do you assume that it’s within anyone’s power to prevent someone from making bad choices?”

I don’t. People have personal responsibility for their behavior. But there is a longstanding debate whether the chinuch input that is believed to be at fault for the OTD phenomenon is the flaw of the parents or the yeshivos/schools. Everyone volleys the responsibility to the other. In reality, there are usually a variety of forces at play, and I don’t give a pass to anyone.

The typical response of the Rov is that the parents are at fault, as no Rov wants to go on record as holding a complaint against yeshivos (all of them or a specific one). In fact, it is difficult to ever take a yeshiva to Beis Din, as almost every single Beis Din refuses to accept such cases. They fear the backlash if they were to pasken against a yeshiva. However, if this typical Rov blames parents for flawed chinuch, how would he explain his own child that is OTD? No one can overlook personal choice. But parents and yeshivos have considerable input and influence over young people.

So the question still remains. Is the Rov qualified to guide decisions in matters of chinuch?

Shopping613:

What tells you (or everyone yu know) that your Rov is competent to answer these shailos? Being a nice guy, a talmid chochom, capable of saying Daf Yomi, and darshening by simchos and Shalosh Seudos might not qualify to guide you in taking a job, moving, or college/career issues.

Chabadshlucha:

True and accurate. But with regards to Rebbishe kids, to proclaim them actors would be a put down, not an asset. My point is that one cannot rely on the levush to become something. To excel in Avodas Hashem, one needs to engage in hard, sincere work on one’s character. You cannot purchase madraigos of kedusha off the rack.

Chassidus accepts the principle that one dresses princely and as a result behaves princely. The language is something like the chitzoniyus influences the penimiyus. Personally, I can accept this, however, clothes do not make the man. When Yaakov donned Eisav’s clothing, he did not become a rasha. Similarly, one can wear the costume of a rebbe, and will not automatically become one. Pedigree may mean something, but it does not substitute for the personal growth that is required for someone to achieve the status of a Manhig Yisroel. The frock does not create a Rosh Yeshiva, and the beketshe does not make someone any holier than another.

There have been a few people that we can remember who never wore the traditional garb of the Rosh Yeshiva, whose gadlus for Klal Yisroel was extreme. Anyone remember Rav Pam ZT”L? He wouldn’t even sit in the front of his Beis Hamedrash. Not mentioning others is in no way to imply exclusion. But there have been many. Chassidim have grown to place undue value to levush, and this detracts from a derech of Avodas Hashem that can be very meaningful. At the end, the garb worn in the kever is all the same, and we stand in front of the Beis Din Shel Maaloh without any of the fancy trappings of garb.

People think they are smart when they cross the lines of halacha and dina dimalchusah to make themselves richer. That is not only incredibly stupid, but it indicates their bitachon in Hashgochas Hashem to fulfill the gzar din of מזונותיו של אדם קצובים לו מראש השנה עד ראש השנה. I always wondered why people do this, as they are trying to outsmart G-d. Senseless. Actions have consequences. Hashem yeracheim.

ZD:

I did not check the OU website, but I am certain there are requirements for membership. There is also a “Mission Statement”, and I would have to believe that this also references the adherence to halacha. The OU can easily state such a requirement and note that since HIR adopts a different set of guidelines, their membership is an error. They have not damaged HIR in any way, and the only basis for lawsuits is the thirst that some people may have to create a chilul Hashem. Regardless, the OU needs to take a stand on this. I cannot tell them what actions to take, and having no expertise in law, that may be a piece of guidance and direction they should consider. In any case, if a member of a club breaks the rules of the club, there needs to be a response.

This situation is not the carrot nor the stick. No one is looking to punish a shul for breaking Torah rules. The OU can simply say that they do not comply with the Torah standard of halacha, and expel them from membership. Perhaps the organization needs to examine the process in which they were approved – something did not work. But ousting them is not punishment. If I got accepted to the plumbers union through an error, expelling me would not be a punishment. I should never have been there in the first place. I don’t get the discussion about a stick, punishing them, maybe some members would reject even more halacha because of this, etc.

Actually, most shuls daven too quickly. The problem lies with the davening, not the talking. Here’s my take.

Most of us had zero formal education, or even role modeling that taught us to properly oriented to tefiloh. Boys’ yeshivos rarely, if ever, have classes on tefiloh. Some girls’ schools do, but the talking problem we are addressing is on the men’s side of the mechitzah. What we do have is a proclamation of “don’ts”. The huge published signs about the issur to talk during davening and laining, the custom signs in some shuls about how talking from beginning to end of davening is not tolerated, the drashos about this, the police who patrol the shul to admonish those that talk, and the literature and videos from various rabbonim on the subject are all versions of “don’t”. There seems to be some impact, but the discussion here implies that the impact is minimal.

I propose something that was alluded to in several prior comments here. Instead of rebuking talkers, instead of highlighting the don’ts (I am keenly aware of the halacha that tells us גוערים בו), instead of hanging signs or policing, I note that the worst aveiroh is not the talking part but the “not davening” part. If we could encourage a proper attitude toward tefiloh, if we could educate everyone on how precious it is to be able to talk to Hashem directly, being invited into His Home three times a day, if we could understand what we ask, if we could appreciate that our praises to Him are benefitting us, etc., the problem is solved. People should socialize, and there is ample time before and after davening to accomplish that. To waste the opportunity to speak to Hashem is a terrible loss, and that direction of education (by example plus teaching) would likely make a massive change.

GH:

NIce attack. There are a number of askanim who are ready at every beck and call to come to the assistance of members of the community. Some do more than others. Dov Hikind is right near the top of the list (if not the very top). There are not too many with that distinction. He has been doing this for decades. You might address his need to retire and have younger blood succeed him. But you are somehow irritated by Dov, and I cannot fault you if this is a personal issue. But for the Klal, Dov has an incredible record. I know many askanim, and few reach his toes. He has always been and continues to be an עוסק בצרכי ציבור באמונה. If he enjoys a spotlight, I haven’t a care in the world. I get irritated by those whose only distinction is the media coverage, with nothing behind it. That does not characterize Dov.

You may share personal beef, but your pronouncement about him is nasty and unwarranted.

By the way, what is your office that “permits” you to opine about him?

What gives you that idea? Let’s hear some facts, and then see if they support your allegation.

Yelling “anti-semitism” may be a conditioned response, but it smacks of the current trend to label anything we dislike as victimization. It seems popular. That’s the energy behind the myth of Islamaphobia (it is really fear of terrorism), which is used to identify it is an unfair victimization.

Similarly, I ask the OP and commenters to explain the Mishna in Pirkei Avos:

המחלל שם שמים בסתר נפרעים ממנו בגלוי

If the qualification for chilul Hashem is publicity, than how can one do this in private? I believe the answer to that question will shed a great deal of light on the question posed by the OP.