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Joseph:
There is an obscure Ramban that discusses the subject of medical care by a professional. He essentially states that there is a science that utilizes empirical study that must be the training of anyone practicing in the field. No, he doesn’t endorse a particular medical school. But he states clearly that those who lack this scientific training should not engage in the practice. The context of this is a discussion about the mishna that exempts a physician from liability if a patient was injured or harmed in the process of healing. The message is that “The surgery was successful, but the patient died” is adequate to free the doctor of liability. But this is limited to the physician who is trained and expert. The charlatan or untrained doctor (lacking the empirical background) is liable for any harm.
I have personally witnessed adverse reactions to vitamins and supplements recommended by “experts” in that field. B”H none were life threatening. I have also observed some of the advocates of this approach bombard family members of someone with the dreaded illness, looking to stop chemotherapy and traditional medical care for IV drips of various vitamins. The fight was between these advocates and oncologists with years of experience. It was sad to watch patients die because their families withheld responsible treatment.
There is a place for nutrition management, supplementation, etc. The federal government requires labeling that specifies that these products cannot be used to diagnose or treat any medical ailment (check the labels for exact wording). The advocates would override that. Results are typically tragic.
East 12th:
I am open to hearing other approaches to anything, including mental health. There is a serious problem with the discussion with regards to interventions based on lifestyle modification and the array of supplements. Simple problem. There is very close to no research that indicates any efficacy for this. There is good reason to believe that poor nutrition contributes to medical issues, and included here are psychiatric ones. When we engage in the conversation that excludes genetics, biochemical disorders, and the complete ban on medication, we have crossed into territory that is unsafe and poorly supported. There is much anecdotal report about this or that helping for various conditions. Some of these have even intruded into mainstream psychiatry. However, research has not come up favorable.
Some examples. Remember St. John’s Wart? It was heralded as the newest breakthrough to treat depression. So much so that it was found in the major mainstream psychiatric journals, and submitted for research. It was found to have negligible effects, not enough to have clinical use. There is also a major handicap to the industry that produces these vitamins and supplements. There is very little funding to conduct proper research. So either shoddy, unprofessional research gets done, which can easily be refuted by normal science. Or one resorts to anecdotal data, which may be interesting but not informative to the scientist. There have been numerous crazes and fads in this industry that have failed to yield enough data to support the suggestions of miracle cures. Unfortunately, it is only the pharmaceutical industry that is regulated, and can recoup the funds expended in conducting scientific study. The food market, including the supplements lacks that. Money talks.
The production of the many supplements on the market is also a troublesome subject. There is no regulation that assures quality of a product. Every so often, outside studies are done to verify the veracity of the products. A label that attests to containing “50 mg.” of a certain vitamin or supplement may have little to do with what the package really contains. I have spoken to people who work for companies that manufacture these products who have told me that the absence of regulation even bothers them, as they claim no one really knows what the pills contain.
With too little verifiable proof that a substance has any effect, and little reliability that a product is real, there is a severe problem here. To the degree that these packages contain the claimed ingredients, who knows what the side effects are? How about the incompatibility between them or with medications?
I cannot engage in debate, and probable should not do so in the CR. But the role that nutrition and lifestyle play is probably relevant, as it would pertain to anything in the medical field. But the leap to the liberal attitude toward treatment with regimens of supplements is beyond logic. Yes, deficiencies in nutrients can be problematic, and should be treated with supplementation. But as pseudomedical interventions – I see it as a craze and sometimes a costly one.
Fme377:
BPD has never been demonstrated to be curable, and I find it shocking that your psychiatrist seems to believe it is. That is inconsistent with the reams of research on the subject. I repeat my earlier statement, that there has been very little that has managed to manage the condition. DBT has shown dramatic success in helping the sufferer to control the symptoms. While the spouse or other family living with the BPD sufferer has quite a struggle, this does not suggest that the sufferer him/herself does not have a difficult life.
You were correct in pointing out that personality disorders can co-exist with any other mental disorder. And medication for the other mental disorder can be indicated. Sadly, it will have zero impact on the BPD.
You are commended for the progress you have made, and may HKB”H continue to help you.
fem377:
I beg to differ. BPD cannot be cured. With intense therapy, the person suffering with it can learn to control reactions enough to manage well. There is nothing magical about 7 years or any other time limit. One of the prominent features of BPD is significant resistance to input from others, and this sets the therapy option back several steps. Yes, I am familiar with DBT and Marsha Linehan. I am not quarreling with her method or its results. I am making a statement about BPD. Living with someone that has it is gehinom. If there is adequate motivation to get better, some sufferers of BPD can do quite well. I assume, from your comment, that you fit this category. But this benefit ends up serving too few. I would join you in wishing this help for so many others.
Bipolar disorder probably cannot be cured. I agree. There are exceptions to that which would be an academic study, and the CR is not the forum for that. Bipolar disorder is a label that contains many variants. And it is often that medicating this condition (or these conditions) is a challenge, even for the best psychopharmacologists. It is guesswork, and some make better educated guesses than others. It is not an exact science. And an issue that is a potential complication in the psychiatric field is that compliance with medications is a potential problem, more so than other aspects of the medical world. It is not uncommon that someone is taking medication successfully for years, and then it stops working, requiring a change in the medication regimen. But short term positive results in Bipolar disorder are far more likely than in treatment for BPD (which does not respond to medication at all).
There is quite a bit I do know, and I have no problem sharing it in the CR or elsewhere. I accept arguments and disagreement.
Respect the bond and privacy of your children (daughter and SIL). Even in your home, they are entitled to interact with each other without your involvement. Hopefully they will want to do that. Recognize it, take note of it, and give HKB”H gratitude that they love each other.
This young couple is their own family, and you are only extended family. Let them spend Shabbos and YomTov wherever they wish, whether at the other sides home or at their own home. Invitation should open, but never, ever imposing your own needs on them.
After slumber, back to the front page of the CR.
Another thought.
When someone wishes to fulfill a mitzvah, it is often that the really frum someone will don a jacket and hat, wash their hands, and put on a gartel. After all, a mitzvah is G-d’s territory, and requires proper preparation and attire. Has anyone ever seen a rebbe do this in front of a class? I know of those rebbeim that return from the washroom, and demonstrate how they wash their hands and recite the brocho of Asher Yotzar wearing a hat. According to those who claim the potch to be such a great mitzvah, would they do this before engaging in it? I suspect that not, proving that this an emotional reaction on their part, and is not a true mitzvah. In fact, I believe this to be the same situation with all forms of discipline. that have been wrongly made into the mission of chinuch, at the expense of teachinig children to love Torah and Midos Tovos.
With an eye on the current divorce rate, it seems that there are many marriages that cannot succeed, with a man being unable to manage with one woman. How on G-d’s earth does anyone expect hmi to manage with two?
One downside of polygamy is that a man can end up with two mothers-in-law. Imagine! Two shviggers! That is a nightmare!
On the serious side, there is a relatively unknown (it should stay that way) movement to reinstitute the subject of Pilegesh. The advocates for this base their position on a tshuvah from Rav Yaakov Emdin where he discusses the subject. I do not recall his precise language, but it boils down to ืืืื ืืืื ืืืจืื ืืื, that the halacha is that this is permitted, but one cannot implement this halacha. Pilegesh would not be a technical violation of the Cherem D’Rabbenu Gershom. But it would be highly problematic for a wide variety of reasons.
It is quite possible that the heter meah rabbonim occurs far more often, but it tends to get very little publicity. It is a process that involves a sense of victory and shame at the same time. On one hand, the divorcing husband manages to win the get war, and slips out of the bond that stopped him from remarrying. But it is also a nuclear option, and makes the husband appear to be a mean, narcissistic person.
I have actually see a few of these. I would NEVER allow my child to consider marrying someone who received his heter to marry by the heter meah. Firstly, (I am not a posek and am not qualified to establish halacha) I frown on the way the signatures are obtained, with very few of the signatories knowing anything at all about the case. In cases I observed, the document was carried into a kollel, and made its rounds collecting signatures of yungerleit who were uninformed about any of the facts of the case. I would not consider my signature cheap, and struggle when someone else does. Secondly, there are opposite extremes of situations that result in seeking heter meah. One extreme is a wife that refuses to accept a get out of stubbornness, such as impossible demands. The opposite end is the husband who refuses to give the wife anything, and since the affairs cannot be settled, she will not accept the get. This husband then turns around and seeks the heter meah rabbonim. These situations are extremes, and their are always unique variables to a specific case. But all too often, the situation of heter meah stinks.
It may be more common than we think. Just lots of cases stay below the radar.
For the most part, heter meah rabbonim is used as a threat to leverage some power to the husband.
Joseph:
You asked: “Is marrying someone who has a mental health issues something to be avoided, if possible?”
No one said that, though this does seem to be the overwhelming belief. The point here is whether one would be correct to keep this a secret until after. No one said that someone that has mental illness should never marry. It is an issue, and in deciding whether a shidduch is right for your child, you should have the information relevant to the decision. To be compelled to decide without all the facts is simply unfair.
Joseph:
Anger and shalom bayis. It depends on how the research is done. Our community is afflicted with a dreaded condition. It involves the whitewashing of too much. Part of this is the “discovery” process in investigating a shidduch prospect. We tend to ask only certain people, such as a neighbor, a Rov inn a community, a former Rosh Yeshiva or Menaheles. The responses are some version of a rosy picture, without a shred of detail. You know, just garden variety, prepackaged answers. It really takes a greater effort to seek people in other positions where some more pointed questions about the above subjects can be answered with objectivity. Personally, I have done that, and I have been steered correctly every time, B”H. I have asked the challenging questions, and have gotten objective answers. This can be done if we invest the time, and dismiss the pat answers that tell us absolutely nothing. The Chofetz Chaim addresses this subject openly, and notes that even the most damaging information is not considered lashon horah, and that one must do this type of exploration.
Joseph:
You wrote: “Do you require potential shidduchim for yourself and your family to undergo a physical to insure their good health?”
I never mandated a physical. But I specifically asked about medical issues. I am less interested in diagnostic labels, and far more interested in symptoms. My questions are varied, but specific to common issues. I ask about anger. What does he/she do when they get angry? How do they get along with others? How do they handle situations that are new, strange, or challenging to them? These questions matter far more than their academic performance, whether they were in the school play or choir, or their yichus. If there are medical issue sin the family, such as diabetes, hypertension, etc., I want to know about that beforehand, so that I have the risk factors as an open issue, not a secret.
It is very, very useful to inquire about the shalom bayis of the parents. Just needed to put that out, though it might be a completely different thread.
Joseph:
No one was questioning why some are motivated to withhold the info about mental illness. The question is whether that is okay according to halacha or yashrus. I doubt that most commenters here believe it is proper to keep such secrets, and I still bet that anyone confronted with such a situation would want to keep it secret.
For those who speak about bipolar disorder or borderline personality disorder, please recognize they are two completely distinct conditions, and rarely co-exist. Bipolar disorder is a treatable illness, though its fluctuations make it difficult to effect a 100% remission. Borderline personality cannot be treated with medication, and its treatment through therapy is partially effective at best. Being married to a borderline (BPD) is one of the greatest nisyonos one can have. Hats off to anyone that can tolerate this life. Approximately 80% of all borderlines are females. There is a wealth of information online about BPD. It is majorly difficult to live with a borderline. It is not fun having the condition either. I have heard people say they wish one could detect BPD in blood tests, so that those with it could be excluded from shidduchim altogether. I know this does not sound nice at all, and perhaps discriminatory. But once you see how these marriages turn out, you will likely agree with that. BTW, there is no blood test for BPD.
A word of caution here.
It is easy to fall prey to making assumptions based on generalizations, which would be a horrible mistake. There are those with mental illness who cannot manage in marriage, and it is an aveiroh to allow them to marry. Poskim have spoken about this, so I am not out of line with this pronouncement. There are many who have a diagnosis and are in treatment and currently stable. I vote against keeping things secret. Yet, if the other side knew a diagnosis, they would run away, even if treatment resulted in a fully functioning individual whose marriage capability was no different from anyone else. So I vote against keeping it secret, but suggest that a decision be made on the evaluation of the individual and their condition, not a label.
A simple piece of advice to the secret keepers would be, “If the shoe was on the other foot, would you be outraged from the other side keeping such information from you? If so, don’t keep it from them.”
There are ways of presenting the information. The dishonest ones are recipes for disaster. I have observed a few such situations. There was an article in one of the frum magazines several years ago that described such a situation. It was awful. May we never know of such problems.
Answers to these two heavy questions:
1) There is really no purpose for a rabbi in the Reform movement. However, someone needs the identity as the leader of the flock. In reality, there is no flock, just club members. But there needs to be a CEO. This masquerades as religion. It’s basically Purim all year round.
2) The title rabbi connotes nothing. Many reform rabbis know less than the average frum kid in kindergarten. Some of us have actually observed the challenge between a 3-4 year old kid from a mainstream frum family and a Reform rabbi. These fellows get terribly embarrassed. What qualifies them for a title is having a tad more knowledge than the next fellow (or gal).
Though we cannot take any such action, a good response to him might be to tell him to be subtracted.
OP asked; “Which gedolei poskim today…..”
My inquiry is simple. Such questions, involving pikuach nefesh should be answerable by anyone who is a posek. Pikuach nefesh is not a specialty area. When I hear someone ask “Which poskim” about a non-specialty area, I wonder whether the individual is shopping for a psak. That is greatly different from asking a shailoh. I wonder what the OP is asking.
Another thread?
It is not my business who Moshiach is or will be. These are agenda driven threads, and they are contaminating YWN. Anyone who wishes to carry on discussion on this has numerous sites to go to, or people to engage in it. I am finding this subject offensive, missionary or cult like, and narcissistic and grandiose. I plan to not read this thread again or comment.
SH:
The issue here is that we are not dealing with Yaakov Avinu. The idea of “Lo Mes” is something unique to Yaakov, and was never hinted to for anyone else since creation of the world (with the exception of those that the gemora says never experienced misa). So the “alive” myth is completely unacceptable, as per Torah and as per logic. To believe that is complete hergesh. I am uninterested in the efforts to provide afterthought logic to rationalize this.
As for the being oveir an issur, this is the expression used by several of the poskim who dealt with the Kever Rochel shailoh. They did not conclude that it is better not to, but that the issur is clear and cannot be subjected to compromise.
I cannot speak for the Chid”a or other poskim from the Sephardic world. It is known that many of their piskei halacha differ from the Ashkenazic prevailing halacha. I have an issue with someone who concocts his own heter for something, and then tries to justify it with a basis from poskim who paskened their halachos for their own communities. These same Sephardic communities were not under the jurisdiction of Rabbenu Gershom, and technically did not accept the takana against marrying more than one wife. With the greatest of regard for the Chid”a, this is a case of apples and oranges.
Yaakov Avinu Lo Mes is completely irrelevant to the discussion here. There is extensive discussion among the poskim of many generations regarding the entry of Kohanim to Kever Rochel, and the poskim are near unanimous that they may not enter at all. I am not familiar with how they deal with Meoras Hamachpela and I don’t recall whether it is part of the discussion, but there is ample basis to recognize the marked kevarim there are not at all the real locations of the Avos, though the proximity is not questioned.
The reality is that the pronouncement of anything to permit a Kohen to approach a kever must be something extremely solid among poskim. The hergesh of chossid is unreliable for this, and those Kohanim who approached the aron were undoubtedly oveir their issur. This is an example of the deification I described that was seconded by Phil.
To all the great Chachomim in the CR:
Please interpret the following two Mishnayos, both from Pirkei Avos. You might say they are repetitious of each other, and the duplication is for emphasis. Or you might recognize two different messages. Without a doubt, there must be many ways to explain this. I am looking to use this as a means to clarify the subject question of this thread.
ืขืฉื ืื ืจื ืงื ื ืื ืืืจ
ืืืืช ืคืจืง ืืขืฉื ืื ืจื ืืืกืชืืง ืื ืืกืคืง
ืืืืช ืคืจืง ืYour thoughts please.
I commented this before, and it is so true that it bears repeating. It is still beyond logic to believe this myth. And an earlier comment stated that it is based on hergesh. I would second that motion. It is not based on logic or saichel. That is why all the efforts to find proofs for it are failures. One can take any written line and find ways to contort it to support a position, but that does not make the interpretation true, and it certainly does not make it saicheldig.
I noted earlier that chassidus Chabad has a history that dates back many generations of deifying their leaders. I do not say this mockingly. There is a degree to which all can learn a bit about emunas tzaddikim. But the extremes are never good. And many have commented that this extreme smacks of avodah zarah. My position is not that negative. i do believe it detracts from the true avodas Hashem.
But back to the point about hergesh. Emotion does not always have logical explanation, and is sometimes not even based on fact. In this case, the explanation might well have more to do with the fact that today’s Chabad is leaderless. There is a huge population without a leader. In an effort to fill that gap, the messages of the Rebbe being alive today can flourish, and so can the reincarnation of the Rebbe as Moshiach. And when one seeks to rationalize this, the logical arguments all postdate the conclusion because they are not the basis for it. It is a forgone conclusion, and the grasping at anything to support the idea are futile efforts to justify it.
While I may sometimes laugh at all this, I adopt a position of rachmanus, on so many people that could actually fulfill the mandate of Taryag Mitzvos, and also promoting the Rebbe’s derech of kiruv, without the obsession about the Rebbe. And once someone wants to obsess about something not real, the world of fantasy is limitless.
The insanity of this subject still behooves me.
Chabad chassidus has a history of making emunas tzaddikim into something quite extreme. They have been accused for generations, long before the birth of this last Rebbe ZT”L as deifying their rebbe. I possess testimony to that.
I can give anyone here a blanket guarantee that my Avodas Hashem will NEVER improve the tiniest iota if i were to believe that the Rebbe is Moshiach. It would improve if I were to engage myself in following Taryag Mitzvos in a stronger way, more kavvanah, etc. Limud Hatorah is precious, and it does not include the hours and days of time spent in fabricating explanations to justify the obsession that forms the subject of this thread and another one like it. I provide my guarantee that wearing a Yechi yarmulka will not hasten the geula. I also would oppose the singing to the chair stuff, regardless of whether during davening or after, as it represents a diversion from the focus on HKB”H to a bosor vodom. To a greatly smaller degree this exists in other factions of Klal Yisroel, other chassidishe groups, and even some yeshivos. It is a bizayon and chilul Hashem, and our generation should stop replacing Kavod Shomayim with aggrandizing its leaders.
Chochom:
You are suffering from a serious cognitive disorder. You begin with a conclusion, and them seek to rationalize it. You have decided, for reasons that nothing to do with Rambam, Gemorah, or any other Torah source, that your Rebbe is Moshiach. Now, you are frantically searching for a reference somewhere that you can interpret to support your position, and then claim that this idea comes from that source. That is intellectual dishonesty, and it is to be shunned and disgraced. This is sometimes referred to in the words of the Chachomim as ืืืื ืคื ืื ืืชืืจื ืฉืื ืืืืื. You need a serious wake up call.
GH:
My issue with this subject is not whether their claim has merit or not. My point is that this is a terrible diversion of energy that needs to go into bring Kavod Shomayim to the world, and into this silliness. I would accept the \rebbe as Moshiach, if it turned out to be him. But I will not waste my time trying to prove this or making my life into a promoter of the idea. It is more important to engage in Torah, Avodah, and Gemilus Chassodim. And I believe the Rebbe ZT”L himself would agree.
One thing is obvious to me. It is far more important to invest one’s time and energy in doing Hashem’s mitzvos than in trying to convince anyone that the rebbe is Moshiach. And I fervently believe that the Rebbe would agree completely. He was not too happy with the chassidim saying that many years before he died.
The message of mofsim is that there is a G-d, and that He will enlist tzaddikim to make them happen in order to increase Kvod Shomayim. They are not to be used to increase the kavod of a bosor vodom. That is a horrible diversion of kedusha. Tzaddikim are terrific assets, but to deify them is frank avodah zarah.
I follow the Rambam’s 13 principles of emunoh. He never, ever suggested that when one recites the one about Moshiach that one should concentrate on any specific person.
I would love to see this thread closed.
Joseph:
There have been gedolim that possessed areas of expertise, without having attended college. The Skverer Rebbe had been involved so intensely and over so long a time that he gained considerable knowledge. I knew the rebbe, and while he was ready to impart advice, he was not beyond recommending these suggestions to the doctor. He never wrote prescriptions or performed surgeries. The Chazon Ish, having similarly gained hands on experience, was often able to access something we might call “Ruach Hakodesh”. And, while I do not personally know anyone who can do that today, I am not beyond believing that there could be someone holy enough today that we could say ืฆืืืง ืืืืจ ืืืงื”ื ืืงืืื. Outside of their training, yes. But learned in this area, yes.
Our generation witnessed many rabbonim and gedolim completely outside their league with poor understanding of many mental health issues, including child abuse, domestic violence, mental illness, addictions, and others. Many proclamations made needed to be retracted, revised, and this multiple times. They are not infallible.
Lastly, there are many aspects to jobs, including location, tasks, training, work environment, wage, and more. I am trying to think of any Rov who is knowledgeable enough in all of these areas to be capable of giving advice. It is too easy to confuse approaching a Rov for his brocho with seeking his advice. I refer you to a wonderful article on that subject penned by Rabbi Yaakov Horowitz in one of the last issues of Jewish Observer.
A relative of mine moved a few years ago. Prior to making that decision, he approached several rabbonim, rebbes, etc., and asked advice. None knew a bit about the location where he was moving, not the community, schools, etc. They were unable to answer. He collected their brochos, but that was all.
drastically edited
iacisrmma:
Extensive experience.
Joseph:
That accusation was uncalled for, totally false, and quite a disgrace. My only issue is that some expect rabbonim to go outside of their domain. This type of dependency is pathological, and not Torah sanctioned. There is nothing wrong with rabbonim having their areas of specialty, similar to many professions. And when a shailoh outside their realm is posed, they need to redirect it to someone more capable. Many do. Some do not. And the list of jobs, moving, and chinuch are examples that some understand well, and others do not. I am not anti-rabbonim. I am quite close to many of them. I include Roshei Yeshivos, Poskim, Dayanim, and others. But if you enjoy throwing around accusations, go right ahead. I am very comfortable with my position, and so many quite noteworthy rabbonim are similarly comfortable with me.
DY:
You wrote “Why do you assume that itโs within anyoneโs power to prevent someone from making bad choices?”
I don’t. People have personal responsibility for their behavior. But there is a longstanding debate whether the chinuch input that is believed to be at fault for the OTD phenomenon is the flaw of the parents or the yeshivos/schools. Everyone volleys the responsibility to the other. In reality, there are usually a variety of forces at play, and I don’t give a pass to anyone.
The typical response of the Rov is that the parents are at fault, as no Rov wants to go on record as holding a complaint against yeshivos (all of them or a specific one). In fact, it is difficult to ever take a yeshiva to Beis Din, as almost every single Beis Din refuses to accept such cases. They fear the backlash if they were to pasken against a yeshiva. However, if this typical Rov blames parents for flawed chinuch, how would he explain his own child that is OTD? No one can overlook personal choice. But parents and yeshivos have considerable input and influence over young people.
So the question still remains. Is the Rov qualified to guide decisions in matters of chinuch?
I’m real simple when it comes to this slogan. If someone appears to share my opinion, I make the observation that great minds think alike. If you think I’m arrogant, you have also seconded my own self-assessment. Once again, great minds think alike.
Shopping613:
What tells you (or everyone yu know) that your Rov is competent to answer these shailos? Being a nice guy, a talmid chochom, capable of saying Daf Yomi, and darshening by simchos and Shalosh Seudos might not qualify to guide you in taking a job, moving, or college/career issues.
Joseph:
It is sad, but many of the life questions that can be brought to a Rov involve areas in which the Rov himself either struggles or has zero experience. You delineated chinuch. This is a sore spot. While there are rabbonim who are quite wise and astute, aside from their vast book knowledge, many are simply not equipped. If one surveys the oilem of kids that are OTD, there is a surprising number who come from homes of rabbonim and roshei yeshivos. I am not pointing a finger at them for doing anything wrong. They are just not immune from these issues. And if they could not prevent such things from happening to their own, what precisely is their expertise to share with others?
One of my pet peeves with chinuch is that it takes training and experience to be prepared for the applied chinuch, involving creating curriculum, classroom management, teaching strategies, establishing the proper relationship with talmidim as per the guidance of Chazal, etc. This background needs to be a universal mandate, and it is not. There are more such training programs than before, and we still view the rebbeim and teachers with such training to be a small percentage of the population of mechanchim(os).
So if those who actually work in chinuch every day are lacking the expertise and training to do their job, what should make me believe the Rov down the block has the answers?
It is easier than you think to pose shailos to your LOR that fall way outside the domain of his expertise. This is not a condemnation of rabbonim. They may have other redeeming qualities. And the difficult shailoh will probably result in a referral to someone with a greater expertise in the subject.
Chabadshlucha:
True and accurate. But with regards to Rebbishe kids, to proclaim them actors would be a put down, not an asset. My point is that one cannot rely on the levush to become something. To excel in Avodas Hashem, one needs to engage in hard, sincere work on one’s character. You cannot purchase madraigos of kedusha off the rack.
The trouble with this thread and similar ones is that many comments are opinions that follow one’s desires, not fact based. The ones on cigarettes border on foolishness, since the overwhelming majority have spoken clearly about the issurim involved. Yet, the frequent comment from those who wish to smoke is that Reb Moshe Feinstein ZT”L was matir smoking. This is actually a dirty lie, obvious to anyone who has read his tshuvos on the subject. Here. too, I expect evidence to support a heter to be nowhere found, yet justifications and rationalizations everywhere.
The definition of rationalization is where the answer precedes the reasoning for it.
Chassidus accepts the principle that one dresses princely and as a result behaves princely. The language is something like the chitzoniyus influences the penimiyus. Personally, I can accept this, however, clothes do not make the man. When Yaakov donned Eisav’s clothing, he did not become a rasha. Similarly, one can wear the costume of a rebbe, and will not automatically become one. Pedigree may mean something, but it does not substitute for the personal growth that is required for someone to achieve the status of a Manhig Yisroel. The frock does not create a Rosh Yeshiva, and the beketshe does not make someone any holier than another.
There have been a few people that we can remember who never wore the traditional garb of the Rosh Yeshiva, whose gadlus for Klal Yisroel was extreme. Anyone remember Rav Pam ZT”L? He wouldn’t even sit in the front of his Beis Hamedrash. Not mentioning others is in no way to imply exclusion. But there have been many. Chassidim have grown to place undue value to levush, and this detracts from a derech of Avodas Hashem that can be very meaningful. At the end, the garb worn in the kever is all the same, and we stand in front of the Beis Din Shel Maaloh without any of the fancy trappings of garb.
He does not only need such a yeshiva, but he also needs an environment that accepts his noble intent as acceptable. Unfortunately, the prevailing belief in the streets is that anyone who seeks to engage in the slightest secular education is an oisvorf. Yet, one may attend Agudah conventions, Torah Umesorah, and such events as Keiravtuni Shabbatons, and discover plenty of wonderful people, ืืจืืื ืืฉืืืื, who remain steeped in Torah, and have accomplished themselves as professionals, gracing the tzibbur with their services.
I applaud the honesty of this bochur, who seeks to utilize his time for a to’eles, rather than to do what so many others do, kvetch a bonk, and claim to be a full time TOrah student.
People think they are smart when they cross the lines of halacha and dina dimalchusah to make themselves richer. That is not only incredibly stupid, but it indicates their bitachon in Hashgochas Hashem to fulfill the gzar din of ืืืื ืืชืื ืฉื ืืื ืงืฆืืืื ืื ืืจืืฉ ืืฉื ื ืขื ืจืืฉ ืืฉื ื. I always wondered why people do this, as they are trying to outsmart G-d. Senseless. Actions have consequences. Hashem yeracheim.
Not that I condone the practice, but the populace has learned to recognize that rabbonim and poskim have their areas of expertise. Certain ones are keen on kashrus, others on Choshen Mishpat, others on Shabbos, etc. In fact, I have asked shailos of many rabbonim, and have often been directed elsewhere because of the issue of expertise. The result, I fear, is that the average frum Yid can now pick and choose whom to ask, and does so. With this becoming a pattern, there are those rabbonim who are known for being particularly lenient or strict on specific subjects, and the choice of whom to ask is predicated on the expected psak. For that matter, batei din fare similarly, with those specializing in gittin, Choshen Mishpat, and with reputations of being fair to women more than men or vice versa.
The OP implies that there should be a return to the words of Chazal ืขืฉื ืื ืจื. My agreement or endorsement is unnecessary. But I do wonder how things got this bad.
ZD:
I did not check the OU website, but I am certain there are requirements for membership. There is also a “Mission Statement”, and I would have to believe that this also references the adherence to halacha. The OU can easily state such a requirement and note that since HIR adopts a different set of guidelines, their membership is an error. They have not damaged HIR in any way, and the only basis for lawsuits is the thirst that some people may have to create a chilul Hashem. Regardless, the OU needs to take a stand on this. I cannot tell them what actions to take, and having no expertise in law, that may be a piece of guidance and direction they should consider. In any case, if a member of a club breaks the rules of the club, there needs to be a response.
Is there any reaction from the OU?
ZD: You make a good point, but I fail to see the relevance to this thread.
This situation is not the carrot nor the stick. No one is looking to punish a shul for breaking Torah rules. The OU can simply say that they do not comply with the Torah standard of halacha, and expel them from membership. Perhaps the organization needs to examine the process in which they were approved – something did not work. But ousting them is not punishment. If I got accepted to the plumbers union through an error, expelling me would not be a punishment. I should never have been there in the first place. I don’t get the discussion about a stick, punishing them, maybe some members would reject even more halacha because of this, etc.
As a major organization that stands for Torah values, the OU cannot give a “hechsher” on something that is inconsistent with Torah. It is not about throwing them out of OU. If they truly espouse values that are contrary to Torah, they are simply ineligible. the OU has many departments, but the world perceives them as a stamp of kashrus. It’s one thing to accept a more lenient psak halacha. It is quite another to welcome a shul that violates basics. If expelling them makes them feel bad, they may seek therapy. Feelings do matter, but not here.
Actually, most shuls daven too quickly. The problem lies with the davening, not the talking. Here’s my take.
Most of us had zero formal education, or even role modeling that taught us to properly oriented to tefiloh. Boys’ yeshivos rarely, if ever, have classes on tefiloh. Some girls’ schools do, but the talking problem we are addressing is on the men’s side of the mechitzah. What we do have is a proclamation of “don’ts”. The huge published signs about the issur to talk during davening and laining, the custom signs in some shuls about how talking from beginning to end of davening is not tolerated, the drashos about this, the police who patrol the shul to admonish those that talk, and the literature and videos from various rabbonim on the subject are all versions of “don’t”. There seems to be some impact, but the discussion here implies that the impact is minimal.
I propose something that was alluded to in several prior comments here. Instead of rebuking talkers, instead of highlighting the don’ts (I am keenly aware of the halacha that tells us ืืืขืจืื ืื), instead of hanging signs or policing, I note that the worst aveiroh is not the talking part but the “not davening” part. If we could encourage a proper attitude toward tefiloh, if we could educate everyone on how precious it is to be able to talk to Hashem directly, being invited into His Home three times a day, if we could understand what we ask, if we could appreciate that our praises to Him are benefitting us, etc., the problem is solved. People should socialize, and there is ample time before and after davening to accomplish that. To waste the opportunity to speak to Hashem is a terrible loss, and that direction of education (by example plus teaching) would likely make a massive change.
Noch an asifa? The first asifa at Citifield had minimal impact, aside from awareness. There has been far greater effectiveness with TAG making dates and times to be present in shuls and available to do their work. It is critical for every beis hamedrash to have a moroh d’asroh address the subject individually with the mispallelim. The major events (ask TAG to verify if you don’t believe) make hardly a dent.
Other forms of addressing the issue as an issur that requires enforcement have nearly all failed. Rejecting admissions for yeshiva/school is a colossal farce. It’s ineffective, besides being wrong. It is shocking to see the time and money being wasted on ineffective means of preserving kedushas hamachaneh.
GH:
NIce attack. There are a number of askanim who are ready at every beck and call to come to the assistance of members of the community. Some do more than others. Dov Hikind is right near the top of the list (if not the very top). There are not too many with that distinction. He has been doing this for decades. You might address his need to retire and have younger blood succeed him. But you are somehow irritated by Dov, and I cannot fault you if this is a personal issue. But for the Klal, Dov has an incredible record. I know many askanim, and few reach his toes. He has always been and continues to be an ืขืืกืง ืืฆืจืื ืฆืืืืจ ืืืืื ื. If he enjoys a spotlight, I haven’t a care in the world. I get irritated by those whose only distinction is the media coverage, with nothing behind it. That does not characterize Dov.
You may share personal beef, but your pronouncement about him is nasty and unwarranted.
By the way, what is your office that “permits” you to opine about him?
I never thought I would ever find something to say about robo calls. They are annoying, and they literally rob me of time. Yes, I am flooded with them. The Do Not Call list specifically exempts non-profits, politicians, and businesses where you are already a listed customer. So they are not breaking a secular law. But they are guilty of stealing my time and disturbing me. Yes, I hate them. Yes, I would support legislation to block them completely, requiring an opt in to receive them.
But there is good news here. Today was the last day, until the next election, that you will get these calls. Tomorrow, no one will be calling you, not to report the results of the election, not to congratulate you for going with the winner, nor to curse you for trying to spoil it.
What gives you that idea? Let’s hear some facts, and then see if they support your allegation.
DY:
That is an ancient line, quoted from Hershele Ostropolier.
Personally, if my wife ate only the last cookie, I’d be thrilled.
Yelling “anti-semitism” may be a conditioned response, but it smacks of the current trend to label anything we dislike as victimization. It seems popular. That’s the energy behind the myth of Islamaphobia (it is really fear of terrorism), which is used to identify it is an unfair victimization.
Similarly, I ask the OP and commenters to explain the Mishna in Pirkei Avos:
ืืืืื ืฉื ืฉืืื ืืกืชืจ ื ืคืจืขืื ืืื ื ืืืืื
If the qualification for chilul Hashem is publicity, than how can one do this in private? I believe the answer to that question will shed a great deal of light on the question posed by the OP.
Freddyfish:
You claim to be in the know. How is that? My connections in Baltimore tell me the situation is no different from any other Jewish community. Some data please.
To the OP:
You are either uninformed, in denial, or simply lying. Baltimore is no different than any other community, and it has its share of every one of the painful issues that the frum oilem prefers to ignore.