The little I know

DY:

You wrote: “Why do you call them “hooligans”, “laydig gayers”, and “a bizayon”?
They’re cholim! Have rachmanus!”

Glad you asked. The choleh that gets treatment is the one who seeks help, or struggles with that because of personal suffering. They are not claiming tzidkus while damaging others. When pure yetzer horah dresses as a tzaddik, the problem is greater. If HKB”H wishes to consider that as a choleh, He can certainly do so. We cannot. We are not experiencing his illness, we are experiencing his violence and damage being inflicted on others. There needs to be zero tolerance. As far as yenem’s spirituality, we have little to no control. Our limitations on tochachah are severe, and the efficacy of that is also poor. It is the rare exception when a doctor can successfully treat the resistant patient. As long as anyone conveys to these thugs that they are doing something holy, they will trash their learning to be busy being לוחם מלחמות השם. That’s what they did here. If this behavior gets rewarded, it will continue.

I am all for therapy, and recognizing that OTD kids are cholim. I still hold them responsible for their behavior. The OTD kid that steals money from the parents to finance their vices is still liable. The illness does not absolve them of responsibility for their actions.

gilda:

Show us all a serious comment. Please.

BaltimoreMaven:

Your last comment is laughable. Perhaps another few words will help. Maybe not. I will not keep trying to explain myself, and really do not feel a need to do so. But her’s another try.

I will not divulge much about myself, but I am among those that strongly believes that a wedding is an incredibly important experience, most for the chosson-kallah, secondarily the parents and family, and next to other friends and family who partake of the simcha. It is (hopefully for the chosson-kallah) a once in a lifetime experience, and it has gigantic spiritual significance. That is very real, and not just a nice painting. The minhagim that are followed at simchos, each faction of Yiddishkeit as per their heritage, are truly holy, and connect today with the generations that preceded us. I am not in any way mocking or belittling a minhag. I have witnessed some minhagim that were novel, even strange to me, and I maintain the deepest respect for them. None of that is the issue here. I just addressed the ideal, and a goal of every chasunah. My complaint concerns the actual, which fails too often to approach the ideal.

I have paid attention to the Chosson sitting opposite the badchan. It is the rare exception that this environment involves the chosson crying and doing teshuvah. Mostly, they are noticing who enters, particularly close family and rabbonim, and accepting the wishes of mazel tov. That is not a bad thing. But they are distracted much of the time from the solemn experience that the minhag tries to establish. The length of time is an important factor. The words טירחא דציבורא refer to a reason to be מבטל certain things so as to not impose the time passage on others. Those words are as relevant to the simcha as to the shul.

Please look up the words ad hominem. They do not apply to a minhag. And I do not trash minhagim, just the practice of them when they are conducted in a manner that defies the purpose.

Mitzvah tantz – This is indeed a heilige mitzvah, and has become a serious problem. The process of badchanus has departed from the small ritual to the level of a professional performance. Calling up someone for the honor was once something that occupied a few minutes at the longest. Now, it can easily extend to a half hour. The content of recounting the lives of everyone, from the parents, grandparents, and converting a time of serious simcha to sadness is not what the minhag once was. It evolved into this. The honoree at mitzvah tantz years ago would dance for a brief time in front of the kallah. No longer. The tantz itself can lest several minutes. When a rebbe does this, I would hope and expect that there are heilige kavonos. But when every “Tom, Dick, and Harry” does this, we are observing something very different. Each honoree is now a public performer. That was not the minhag.

I am not trashing anybody. I am just pointing out that the minhagim of yesteryear have grown into something else. This something else takes an awfully long time. I may choose to spend my time doing whatever I wish. But I do not own the time of others. Making them stay up at my simchos because of today’s version of “minhagim” is direct conflict with my understanding of טירחא דציבורא.

I am not making fum or trashing. I would hope that the message that simcha is an emotion that bursts forth in a manner that follows tradition and heritage (and kal vachomer halacha). The trends we are observing are problematic, and deviate from what our heilige zeides and rebbeim established.

You may disagree if you wish. I do not intend to continue this debate.

Jersey Jew:

I agree. Yeshivos do not cause 99% of the OTD problem. But the extreme the other direction is also a definite lie. No one has statistics that are scientifically reliable. We only have observation. And those who are in the trenches are work with these issues constantly have a perspective that is valuable, even if the numbers are off. There is a tendency for discussions on this topic play ping pong with the blame. “It’s the chinuch system.” “It’s the parents.” Each case varies. There is plenty of poorly exercised chinuch. There is plenty of bad parenting. Denying all responsibility is morally dishonest, and insures that big chunks of the problem will never go away.

Today’s world offers incredible ease of access to influences that are a threat to young developing minds. The schedules of parents are hectic, and make the mission of spending quality time with their children a challenge. The trends of what is acceptable and the “norm” are constantly changing, and generations struggle to recognize what is now “in”. The confusion is widespread, and nothing today is being done on a large enough scale to steady it.

Learning Torah is great. Forcing someone to adapt to a curriculum that is incompatible with his/her character is dooming the child to failure. Full time learning is bad advice for some people, and making that the yardstick is irresponsible. But trends win out over logic every time.

With all this chaos, the shortcomings of all those in caregiving positions, whether parent or mechanech, are dangerous. What do we expect from our kids?

The OP proposes an idea that is wonderful on paper (and sometimes might actually work). However, this is often a worthy concern but impossible.

Mental illness usually develops between the ages of 10-11 through 25-26. There certainly are exceptions to this range. The hormonal changes that precede puberty are influential in this, and so are genetics. But it is wholly possible that the condition is not detected until the 20’s. I am aware of cases where a couple married, with both of them symptom free, and one of them later developed a serious mental illness. There is no one to blame or hold responsible. Similarly, the development of the mental illness is seldom an overnite experience, but rather the array of symptoms develop gradually. This makes the issue complex in that the evaluating professional is trying to assess a moving target.

I would urge anyone seeking evaluation (if the need presents) seeking a professional that is trained to work with that age group. All mental health evaluation involves a certain amount of guess work, as it is a soft science. But the more experienced and educated guess is a better bet. An underscore is that tefiloh is warranted, as the ultimate healer is HKB”H. We have our hishtadlus to make, and our obligation is to do this with the best of responsibility. Then, Hashem takes over and guides these professionals and their interventions with Syatta Dishmaya.

Avram:

In a few of your comments, you have labeled me something that I am not. Whether this fits the technicality of מכנה שם לחבירו or not is not the issue. But I should clarify, so that you are not walking around believing that I am okay with kids being mechalel Shabbos just because telling them not to would be rejection.

For starters, we are dealing with a kid that is already acting out, not initial chinuch. The OTD kid is doing so in pain, though we may not know what precipitated it. This is not about the blame game either. What we do tell a kid is what will produce the best result for the kid. If imposing will on him just makes him rebel, then we need to find another option. No, I do not absolve the kid of responsibility either. But his acting out from his personal pain does not designate him as an apikores either.

The argument I make is that boundary setting, a critical part of basic chinuch, must be done right and at the proper time. At the wrong time, it does not convey a message of direction but a set of criteria to earn punishment. That message rejects, and has no place in chinuch. No one would be pleased to be ordered around like that, and at the very least, מה דעלך סני לחברך לא תעביד. If one needs to give this direction to a kid that is already OTD, or even struggling, there needs to be guidance how to accomplish that. I will share a general rule in all of chinuch. Absolutely everything that is done in the way of chinuch must be focused on bringing about the desired result of the child’s learning (whether information or behavior). The role of the mechanech (rebbe, teacher, or parent) is to teach, not control. There are times when it becomes necessary to engage in control, but that is not true chinuch, and should also be the exception. When we fail to teach אהבת השם to our children and talmidim, we have failed at our mission. No one is perfect, and many of us will have experienced failures.

I do not believe that boundaries are forms of rejection. But the kid needs to hear it as a boundary, not a criterion for punishment or tolerance. Hashem’s love for Klal Yisroel was ever present even after the חטא העגל. That needs to be our role model for how to love. Under the very worst conditions, Hashem never interrupted the מן or the בארה של מרים. He never rejected us, even throughout the turbulent years of the דור המדבר with a series of negative events. I humbly believe that HKB”H knows a lot better than humans, and that the love for a Yid needs to be unconditional. Ultimate rejection is not in our domain. If we are machmir on everything else in life, why not apply that to the cherishing of a Yiddishe neshomoh?

Avram:

You’re free to question the context and veracity of the reports I presented from the Divrei Yoel, Rav Elyashiv, and others. I am plenty skeptic, and all those who shared these incidents with me, in print, in video, or word of mouth are implicitly trusted by me. I cannot force anyone to accept those bits of information. Myself, I do not always accept such things, and won’t fault anyone for doing the same.

The overriding point is that the whitewash pronouncement of the Satmar Dayanim is not acceptable. yes, I respect them, but they are wrong here. Their pilpul is simply not applicable, concerning the facts. And there is ample support from a great variety of Gedolei Yisroel (Many references I cited in detail that can be verified) that such discarding of neshamos is certainly unwarranted. Whether one must accept them all can be questioned (I acknowledge teshuvah inasmuch as I would want HKB”H to accept mine). No one was discussing a single situationin which dayanim paskened to reject. The matter at hand was a generalization that all OTD kids are to be permanently rejected, zero kiruv, and no possibility of teshuvah. That deserves my defiance.

For those who are inclined to be rejecting of other Yidden, I guess there is the freedom to buy the Satmar publication. For me, it goes into the shaimos pile.

Avram:

Your comment is neither accurate nor responsible. I thought your intellect was above that.

Joseph:

Sorry, but I am in the know on this. I stated fact, not some bizarre idea/accusation.

ME12345:

Two corrections. “most of these teens need serious physiology” You meant psychology. Lok up definitions.

You wrote: “Most otd teens went off because of their parents.” I would not generalize like that. Most OTD went off because of experiences with adults. I cannot cite any statistics, but it is close to a draw between parents and chinuch. There is plenty of inadequate, even bad, parenting. True. There is also a huge amount of abusiveness in chinuch. No, I am not making a mountain out of a molehill.

Let’s start with a personal question. How many of your rebbeim from your elementary and high school years do you still keep contact with? If any, why not the others? Keep your answer to yourself, but it will tell you something about that rebbe that remains with you. That is real chinuch.

Next, there is hardly a day during which a yeshiva experience involved not a single instance of a member of the hanhala embarrassing a talmid. Yes, public shaming. Some cases might have been particularly severe, others not so dramatic. But the impact on the child can be lasting and deep. These occurrences are very far from rare, and do not even qualify as uncommon. This is tantamount to emotional murder. Once you have been shamed by a rebbe, you will never revere him again. Children also generalize to all adults. Maybe one rebbe was the culprit in this, but the child is apt to consider all members of the hanhala guilty. This is not a simple issue. The Rambam refers to the use of shame as a tool in teaching. But if you check out the context of that halacha, it is definitely not a first approach. It is as much a last resort as a potch. But it is popular.

I have heard some hair raising things that yeshiva boys, elementary and high school, have been told. If your child spoke that way to your grandchild, you would be enraged.

There is a lot that mechanchim need to learn about discipline. A good rebbe rarely needs it, if ever. The more use of discipline, the poorer quality a rebbe or teacher. Now, the talmid is the victim of this. And it is not just a rare exceptional case. I know way too many situations in which OTD kids pointed directly to a rebbe, with a long list of alarming events. Most of these events were not when the rebbe was dealing with an OTD kid, but long before the transformation.

Again, no numbers, but close to a draw between parents and chinuch. Either way, the kid is escaping. These kids (as you stated, 95%) are not kofrim, and do not meet the qualifications for complete and final rejection, even if the Satmar pilpul is accurate.

Avram:

Long comment. Many responses. Will separate them so that the mods can post them, and dialogue can continue.

You wrote: “This is nonsensical. If my car is continually ramming a barrier, it’s not because the highway administration randomly put a guardrail up for my car to crash into. It’s because my car is veering off the road.”

Precisely my point. If boundaries are taught properly earlier, they have become ingrained. If there is ramming, there is a problem. The car that keeps veering into the guardrail needs to be reguided. The barrier might prevent from going off the cliff or into the ditch. But it does not constitute guidance or chinuch. And it does not create a safer highway.

You wrote: “I think, unfortunately, that the majority of OTD issues arise within the influence of a toxic peer culture…”

Sometimes happens, but this is a real minority. Most kids that go OTD are running nowhere, looking for somewhere they feel accepted. They are on the escape. Talk to anyone who works with these kids. Yes, the OTD culture accepts them. But why are they running away from a life we know to be so rich with spirituality, moral value, and closeness to HKB”H? The answer to this question is as individual as facial appearance. כשם שאין פרצופיהם שונות. These kids are not attracted to leave the fold. They are running from it, and the “bad friends” welcome them. Those bad friends were once in the same situation.

Avram:

You wrote: “B = Boundaries are good in theory, but if a child has problems with boundaries, the boundaries should fall by the wayside, because it’s not loving or accepting to make a child with boundary issues face boundaries.”

I happen to believe that boundaries are good in more than theory. Boundaries that exist only on the architect plans do not protect anyone. Boundaries must exist in reality.

Now let’s explore the reality of this issue. I noted earlier than boundaries, to be effective, must be taught, not imposed. I want the guardrails on the highway to serve as a visual cue to maintain the proper direction of my car. To create a guardrail that one will continually ram, even if it effectively blocked the vehicle from exiting the highway, is not a boundary, but a barrier. That may be useful in the perimeter of a prison. It is dysfunctional in a home, even if it actually works.

My kids need to be happy in my home, not looking for the loophole to break out. Imposed boundaries create the barrier that kids look to circumvent. They have learned nothing. And I have perpetuated their negative status.

Boundaries need to be taught, where the kids learn what is right and wrong, what is good or not. I suggest that a great many OTD situations involve problems with this process, having been done incorrectly, or in a manner that was not effective. Now that the kid is acting out, now we are going to impose boundaries. This does not work. This imposition of boundaries is a parallel with rejection, because that’s the only message. Sure, the situation is frustrating. I freak when my toddler grandchildren discover a light switch they can reach. No one wants chilul Shabbos in their home. But the fight is futile, and carries major risk, in short term and long term.

One additional thought. We are conditioned to being mechanech all our children the exact same way. Shlomo Hamelech told us חנוך לנער על פי דרכו. The instruction includes that this derech may not be that which I would choose, and also not the derech that works for another child. We may have done a great job at teaching boundaries to all our children. But if, for whatever reason, it did not work with this one child, I have an obligation to accomplish that teaching in a way that will be effective. That is the OTD kid. Not necessarily bad parents. Just the failure to match the right parenting skills needed for that kid.

RebYidd23:

You speak truth. People confuse chinuch with setting boundaries. They do not have to be separate things. If setting boundaries teaches, then it is chinuch. If setting boundaries makes family ties conditional, if setting boundaries rejects, if setting boundaries is a message of an authoritarian relationship, it is not chinuch. It becomes part of the problem, not part of a solution.

When someone enters a new job, they are provided with a list of company policies. Many of these are rules. But there is a paycheck, and there are benefits. If the relationships with bosses, coworkers, etc. are poor, the person is likely to seek employment elsewhere. At least the rules came with some positives. And sometimes the match won’t work.

Boundaries are crucial. But we want to teach them, and the dynamics of the home environment flow in a positive way. If we impose rules that are confining, as a show of force, sacrificing the family relationship for decorum, basing the love on compliance, we are rejecting. That rejection shows the kid that they do not matter at all, and will be expelled for the parents’ convenience and comfort. Nobody considers that chinuch, and this is certainly never the ideal.

Boundaries must be taught, not imposed. I think that should be simple enough. Sadly, we were not taught how to parent before we became parents.

I will defer to others here to debate whose authority matters. My issue is different, and all my comments on this thread point to the single most crucial variable here. I stated that this is not under jurisdiction as a matter of kefira and how to handle that. I stated, again I repeat, based on much interaction with gedolim of today and yesterday, many of their quotes (some were presented her), and considerable experience and study, this is an emotional issue. If that is ignored, it is misinterpreted as kefira. But that is rarely true, if ever. I therefore reject the publication of the Satmar Dayanim as irrelevant to the subject, while it might well be academic genius. The throwing away of anyone is unacceptable to me, and I believe, באמונה שלימה that HKB”H is desirous of teshuvah by anyone at any time. For those who want to portray me as being מבזה תלמידי חכמים, go ahead. I can continue to have utmost respect for them. Here, they are flatly wrong, and their drawback is not knowing the metziyus. Again, I am more qualified in that arena, and I disagree.

GAON:

The publication from the Satmar Dayanim was not the psak of a Beis Din in a specific instance. It was for general consumption, and seeks to establish a halachic precedent to apply when someone from המון עם deals with an OTD kid. That is a huge problem. Who assessed this kid? Is every OTD kid a kofer? I suggest that there is a microscopic percentage that go these ways due to intellectual motives. Everyone else, the vast overwhelming majority, are doing so for emotional reasons. That is metzius. I happen to be more qualified than the dayanim to assess that. How is a regular baal haboss supposed to address his child that is OTD. With rejection, hate, etc.? I suggest that this is NOT a general psak that belongs in circulation. The examples I gave were not from drush, and were not exceptional cases.

Joseph:

You wrote: “Respect for in-laws is like Kibud Av V’Eim. You must do it whether it is earned or not.”

Except that for in-laws it is not D’Oraysa.

Technically, that is correct. One must respect in-laws. The issue here extends into the reality matter. One can fulfill the “respect” here by refraining from being disrespectful. In reality, we seek a goal of a mutually respectful and congenial relationship. That cannot be demanded. If it were, it would be artificial, and that would be obvious. It needs to be a genuine one, which is generated by nice feelings and behaviors that are in the proper emotional context. That cannot be demanded.

If we get hung up on the technicality, we will create a nice picture show, without the commensurate emotional relationship. That is certainly not the goal. I guess someone can choose such a scene, but I never would.

Continuing with additional references.

• Rav Shach ZT”L was approached by a father whose son was expelled from a yeshiva. The Rosh Hayeshiva felt that this bochur would ruin others. The father cried to Rav Shach, but he refused to intervene. If the yeshiva needs to put the bochur out, that’s what needs to be. After this father left, Rav Shach summoned his gabbai. He stated that what he told the father was truth, but that the matter did not stop there. That was for the yeshiva. But what will be with this bochur? He cannot be sent to the street where he will deteriorate further. Rav Shach asked to be connected to another Rosh Yeshiva, and finally established the contact to place the bochur. He did not relax until that placement was completed. Expulsion may be necessary, but the child cannot be abandoned. (Mesoras Hachinuch, p. 87)
• Rav Gamliel Rabinovich shlit”a (Tiv Hachinuch p. 306) writes about the OTD child. “Therefore, when we approach this bochur, we first ask them how they are, and continue to speak to them ina friendly way to establish a connection. Everyone that has an inherent love for HKB”H needs to experience pain over those people that do not serve Hashem, and we must therefore invest our energy to be mekarev them to Hashem. The way to accomplish this is to not look at them askance, and not to concentrate on their faults and their inappropriate behavior. But the contrary, we must look and emphasize their assets, the mitzvos and good deeds they have done until now, as they have certainly accumulated many millions of mitzvos, D’Oraysa and D’Rabbonon as well as minhagim. And even if now they are not acting properly, the Chachomim tell us (Chagiga 27a) that HKB”H loves even the sinners. When we increase our love for them, they will recioprocate their love for us, and we can thus restore them to a closeness to HKB”H. It is clear to any Bar Daas that these bochurim need much kiruv and love, as even their physical situation is not favorable to them. And even if they appear to be physically happy, that is a façade. Being mekarev a single neshomoh is a zechus for generations, hundreds and thousands of potential Yidden who will fulfill mitzvos. (This was translated and adapted somewhat. The interested reader is encouraged to study this in the original, and the ensuing pages of the sefer.)

Joseph, mdd1, Et al

The discussion here seems to have deteriorated into a personal attack. In reality, my presence here is anonymous, being behind a screen name. I haven’t a care what anyone here thinks of me as a person, whether I qualify as a talmid chochom or not. My Torah and midos will be judged by Hashem, whose ultimate judgment matters. Go ahead and believe what you wish about TLIK. I am not invested in a popularity contest. We will all sleep by night and work by day. I do hope you all enjoy Avodas Hashem, bringing yourselves and others closer to HKB”H.

Next, for those who wonder about my gender, I am a male, married to a great woman. We have a great family B”H. I studied in mainstream yeshivas, and I have maintained a close relationship with several members of the hanhala of my alma mater. I am not sure what my style of writing says about my gender. I do have a college degree, and have written and published a bit.

It bears repeating that OTD kids who misbehave at home are causing the family, parents and sibs, great discomfort. No one suggests to be pleased with that. No one says a home cannot have rules or boundaries. There are two questions here, and I will support my positions. Is this child a choleh? Should this child be rejected from the home. I stated clearly for question #1 – yes, for question #2 – no.

Now for direct quotes from the “anonymous” Gedolim. Some quotes are translated and paraphrased, but I offer clear and precise references. I refer readers to a sefer published in E”Y in תש”ע called פרי הנושר. There are also quite a few seforim on the subject of chinuch that address our topic.

Here are some samples, with citations:

• Rav Tzadok Hacohen of Lublin ZT”L writes in the Pri Tzaddik concerning the “Ben Rosho” that we recite on Pesach at the Seder. He says, אלו היה שם לא היה נגאל to mean that at that juncture of history such a person would not have been merited to be miraculously saved. But once the Jews were liberated and left Mitzrayim and we were born as a Jewish nation, from then on, no matter how awful his conduct, he can never be detached from his Jewishness. This is true even for someone whose actions have been abominable. That is, in fact, why the Hagadah prefaces these statements with “ברוך הוא” because only Hashem can guarantee that no Jew will be spiritually lost.
• The Nesivos Shalom states in his work on chinuch that when one’s child begins acting out committing issurim, the obligation is “to control oneself, not the child, to shower the child with additional love, not rejection.”
• Rav Shteinman ZT”L (recording) stated that only being mekarev is appropriate for even those committing the most serious aveiros. We are to look away from the aveiros and embrace the children.
• Rav Gershon Edelshtein shlit”a (recording of Rav Shmuel Neiman shlit”a a dayan in Monsey quoting Rav Edelshtein) stated regarding a young girl who was OTD who was buying clothing that was not tznius appropriate that the parents should provide her the money, because that was where she was holding, and to preserve the relationship. Definitely not to throw her out. Rav Neiman also quoted numerous Gedolim that these children today are cholim, not baalei aveiro.
• Rav Shteinman ZT”L (A lengthy quote, translated) was asked by a parent who stated that he would rather his child die then to be OTD. Rav Shteinman’s response: “These people think that they are doing a tremendous Mitzvah by wanting to sacrifice their child just like Avraham Avinu did by ‘Akeidas Yitzchak’! But that is not the case! Avraham was asked to sacrifice his BELOVED child whom he loved more than anything in the world! If a parent is ready to sacrifice a child that he loves so much, a child that gives them great honor and is a tremendous nachass to the family, that is considered a great thing and is truly a sacrifice like ‘Akeidas Yitzchak’! However, if the parents are disgusted with the son because he is not going on the right path and he is a great embarrassment to the family, and that is why the parents are ok with him dying, that is not something to be proud of! That is simply wanting to MURDER a Jewish child because of their own selfish motives due to their own honor! This is not the proper way to talk about a child! On the contrary! The child must be made to BELIEVE that his parents truly LOVE HIM and that it hurts them to see their BELOVED child lose out on a life of real happiness! If this understanding – that his parents truly LOVE HIM – enters into the child’s essence and he really believes that they really love him now: THEN THE CHILD CAN CERTAINLY RETURN!!! It is true that it is a really difficult job, but that is the role of being a parent! It is up to you to daven, to ask advice and to try to do everything possible to HELP the child – not wish him DEAD!”
• Rav Dov Brezak shlit”a writes in his book “Chinuch in Turbulent Times” (p. 387) “Our spiritual leaders have tught us how careful we must be with our children’s precious souls. Contemporary giants no longer with us, including the Chofetz Chaim, the Chazon Ish, R’ Elyah Lopian, R’ Yaakov Kaminetzky, R’ Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, R’ Eliezer Menachem Man Shach, R’ Avrohom Pam, and R’ Avraham Chaim Brim, and those still with us, including R’ Shlomo Wolbe and R’ Michel Yehudah Lefkowitz, all say we must educate our children with love, not with harshness.”
• Rav Wolbe once came to the Chazon Ish regarding a difficult child in his yeshiva. The Chazon Ish told him that a yeshivah can be compared to a hospital; those that come there are not well and need our help. It is our job to make them better. (In Rav Brezak’s book, p. 412-413)
• Rav Ovadia Yosef ZT”L writes in his sefer Maadanei Melech (on Chinuch Yelodim) regarding expelling a talmid from yeshiva for committing serious aveiros. He quotes אין לך דבר העומד בפני התשובה. This perek is lengthy, and anyone interested in his extensive review of the subject should consult that sefer. He repeated the story from the Chofetz Chaim regarding a shiur he presented to an audience of Roshei Yeshivos. To one of them, he refused to respond, and turned his back on him. This was shocking to others who witnessed this. The Chofetz Chaim asked them if they heard of Leon Trotzky, one of the leaders of Communism. He was orphaned at an early age, and his mother sent him to the yeshiva of this particular Rosh Yeshiva. This lad was uncontrollable, and discipline did not help. Finally, he was expelled from the yeshiva. The mother’s pleas were futile. The Chofetz Chaim said that if he would have been mekarev this man, he could have grown into a great talmid chochom. Now he became a terrible hater, and murdered thousands of Yidden.

Plenty more, which I can supply in another comment.

MTAB

Your statement is inaccurate. You wrote: :because you could create mamzerim that way, the Torah says the husband has to give the get willingly, otherwise the get isn’t valid and they still are married, ”

That is not true. A get may be given against the will of the woman. It was a תקנת רבינו גרשם to disallow this practice. That does not invalidate the get, which על פי דין תורה is valid. Perhaps he instituted a consequence of cheirem in order to put teeth into this תקנה, since invalidating the get is not possible. Regardless, these is no issue of mamzeirus if a get was given forcibly.

Rejecting a kid from living in your home is the equivalent of disowning them. It is not terribly meaningful what the intent of the parent is. That language to the child is clear and unmistakable – rejection. And these extreme rejections are so painful that reconciliation is close to impossible. If we are recognizing the sanctity of the parental relationship as a critical element when the child decides to return, then we must admit that this rejection all but makes that impossible.

I have never challenged Torah. But the metziyus must be ascertained so that we know which halachos to apply. The nearly unanimous opinion of Gedolei Yisroel has been made clear. And the authors from KJ have an agenda to challenge that. I will not spend a moment to study them, why they take this approach, etc. We are not dealing with a huge controversy among the Gedolim. They have been clear.

The Chazon Ish ZT”L made a clear statement in his generation, some 60 years ago. He stated that the gemora that describes שמאל דוחה וימין מקרבת is no longer applicable. Today, he said, we must me mekarev with the left as well. The Chazon Ish cannot be accused of modifying halacha to suit his opinions or agendas. He was clearly explaining that the outcome mattered to the application of the halacha. His insight is not only amazing, but it is prophetic. Today’s generation so clearly finds the דוחה approach provocative and rejecting, clearly not the agenda of the Torah. Not because these youngsters are “right”, but because they are seriously impaired.

As far as being “deputized” to fulfill Hashem’s vengeance, I have great trouble accepting this message. There are way too many statements throughout תורה שבכתב and תורה שבעל פה that say otherwise.

mdd1:

Your problem is that you know nothing about the metziyus of the problem. These are not baalei aveiroh at all. These are people suffering from a dreaded disease. They are reacting with psychiatric symptoms to events and situations that drove them to rebel or escape. They are running away from people like you who consider everything they do an aveiroh. As a choleh, which is how Gedolei Yisroel recognize the problem, they are not responsible. It is then an aveiroh to treat them as chot’im. There is a chiyuv to be mekarev them and help them do teshuvah.

Yes, I know a whole lot about Pinchos and Zimri. Zimri was not a choleh. He was a baal aveiroh. And Pinchos knew that, and had the capacity to recognize it. He was the grandson of Aharon Hacohen who knew more about making shalom than you or I will ever be able to grasp. And Pinchos reached a non-impulsive decision, which even Moshe told him was a הלכה ואין מורים כן, that it cannot be carried out as an instruction but rather by the tacit recognition that this was needed.

Until you understand something about the OTD problem being rooted in an emotional situation, all the rest of your arguments are irrelevant. And the Gedolei Yisroel that all say this have reached their conclusions based on having learned to recognize the experience of these kids. Sure, it is unpleasant to see your own child violating Shabbos, dressing in ways that are grossly different from your mesorah, and acting out in ways that are hair raising. But they are sick, not evil. They are not apikorsim at all.

Now picture the coming of Moshiach, where he will be searching the corners of the world for the Yidden, children of the Avos, to gather together and bring to Eretz Yisroel. And you will volunteer to ride shotgun and throw out some of these precious neshamos, who suffered in their illnesses. Is that what you hope to do? How about those who toil relentlessly to restore the cleanliness of these neshamos, all from the same חלק אלוק ממעל as you, me, the rest of Klal Yisroel? They get first class rides and special schar for working to complete the family of Hashem Yisborach, לבל ידח ממנו נדח.

Lastly, HKB”H never employed you to enforce his halachos. He did give you a mitzvah of הוכח תוכיח, but not to ostracize or punish anyone. Have you ever had a child of yours that was sick ח”ו? Did you toss him/her out with the garbage at curbside, or did you go to the doctor? If the child engaged in behaviors that were upsetting to you, did they get taken back to the hospital for a refund? Are any of your children more or less of your child? That statement of yours is absurd, and has never been acceptable by anyone with a minimum of Torah achievement. Who can you quote that would ever support that ridiculous statement – that an OTD kid is less child to HKB”H? Just one reputable name?

Rand0m3x:

You asked: “Marijuana doesn’t impair judgment in the way alcohol does
(causing users to drive despite their impaired ability), does it?”

Yes it does. Because it is usually not as sedating, the user has the illusion of the greater sense of control. In fact, and research shows this, is impairs reaction time, and it affects perception in a potentially destructive way.

I am shocked to read an implied “halacha” in several comments. This “halacha” suggests that if saying something truthful is L”H, then one can lie. This is definitely not true. There is no heter to mislead someone into a shidduch by lying. If someone believes the Chofetz Chaim implies this, I need to see this black on white. I do not recall such a thing, and it is certainly inconsistent with known halacha. It may be one matter to withhold information. But to deliberately give false information is quite another.

I just checked a Google search. Try “cancer risk from cannabis”.

DY:

This will drag the thread into a different direction, which perhaps should have a thread of its own (if I recall, there have been threads on this), but i challenge what you wrote: “And it should be limited to Purim and perhaps Simchas Torah when it’s a mitzvah/minhag.”

Our Gedolim have spoken openly about the myth of serious intoxication on Purim as being plain old yetzer horah. It is fairly clear from the poskim that the “dead drunk” is not the intent of the mitzvah on Purim. Next, I still await to hear something reputable about drinking on Simchas Torah. I asked around several poskim and dayanim I know, and none was able to find a source for this “mitzvah” or “minhag”. Someone once challenged me on my revulsion to drunkenness on Simchas Torah by claiming that it was unfair to see it as negative. After a painful month of Elul, with the requisite cheshbon hanefesh and teshuvah, there was selichos, then Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, then the Sukkos mitzvos, one needs a break, and the imbibing on Simchas Torah is that chance to let go. This was cast as if it was Toras Hachasidus. I was as disgusted by this perverse thinking as I am by shikruso shel Lot. Maybe on these two Yomim Tovim, there should be a mitzvah to smoke weed? I am sure the Satan will derive much nachas from this, and I am convinced that HKB”H will not accept this as positive anything.

I have no opinion about medical cannabis. But recreational, oh yes. The OP wanted to address this from a Torah perspective. I will try to keep to that.

There is not a question that marijuana is a mind altering substance. If it was as benign as a slice of cucumber, there would have never been discussion.

Question #1. Is there a heter to alter one’s mind? At all times, a Yid is obligated to be an oveid Hashem, whether in the midst of learning, davening, and even going through the mundane parts of one’s daily existence. While lofting away under the THC laden smoke, it is a tough sell to say that one is aware of HKB”H. The euphoria one experiences is not the product of ‘ אז תתענג על ה, but a chemically induced neurological state. That is not to be confused with Avodas Hashem. I have heard some young people claim to “learn Gemora better when under the influence”, but that is so absurd is laughable.

Question #2. Is there a threat to health? Great question, though most people first provide the answer they want, then go backwards to justify it. There is a very different toxicity from marijuana than most other drugs. There is no risk of overdose. The degree of impairment while “high” is both different from other drugs, and less dramatic. It does not normally trigger getting wild. We can list many other things it does cause. But it is important to examine what it does do. Research indicates it is a serious gateway drug. It impairs reaction time, making driving and operating machinery a risk. It affects a great many internal organs, and is stored in fat cells as well as those making up many organs and glands. The MJ remains in the cells for periods up to several weeks, and its effects at the cellular level continue until it is somehow excreted. It can impair fertility. I have met people whose pancreas was affected, and are now insulin dependent diabetics. I have met people whose voice and other gender specific characteristics have changed because of impairment to their glands. If tobacco smoking poses risk to the lungs, MJ is several hundred times more dangerous. Considering the mitzvah of ונשמרתם מאד לנפשתיכם, MJ poses a huge problem.

Question #3. Is there anything wrong with being high? The Rambam specifies that mitzvos, including learning and davening, that are performed while intoxicated are not mitzvos at all, and are actually abominable.

Question #4. If marijuana is not addictive, is it less dangerous that alcohol and tobacco, both which seem to be quite widely accepted in the frum community? The problem is the word “addictive”. If one is looking for physical dependency, that would be characterized by tolerance and withdrawal, no. But addictive means much more than that. Becoming accustomed to dealing with life by escaping into a world of another brain state is actually quite terrible and frightening.