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Shopping:
You are paraphrasing my point precisely. I wear white shirts, and “behave”. I happen to prefer wearing white shirts. However, not for a moment do I believe it defines me. My character, I hope, I can attribute to the input I received through my years on how to be an Oveid Hashem, not the choice of store or manufacturer of my shirts. My preference of apparel is my personal choice, and it does not define me. But then, it really shouldn’t matter, because I am not the one that dictates public policy. I do not impose anything as a “value” on anyone.
There seems to be no question, as you put eloquently, that colors of shirts really mean nothing. It is a gross misfortune, as I have also stated eloquently, that the public finds these trivial things to add to the Taryag mitzvos, and allows these to identify whether someone is “frum” or a “maamin”. And none of us are willing to take the plunge and proclaim that the emperor has no clothes (pun not intended). So we all know it is a stupid policy, but we play along with it, since we do not have a bit of control to stop the madness. I think we both agree on this.
I was thinking that the meforshim on Shulchan Aruch (Be’er Heiteiv, Mishna Berura) bring down in Hilchos Shabbos that the Ari Zal stated that one should wear 4 white garments lekovod Shabbos. If one wears white all week, what is different that indicates kovod Shabbos? Just asking.
iacisrmma:
Koheles 9:8 בְּכָל־עֵ֕ת יִֽהְי֥וּ בְגָדֶ֖יךָ לְבָנִ֑ים
Cute. Now let’s address the actual message of that posuk.
Start with Rashi, based on the gemora (Shabbos 153a) that explains this is about behavior, and it refers to the beauty of the expected way that we are to present ourselves. Not at all about attire.
Targum focuses directly on white referring to cleansing from sin. Several meforshim (Akeidas Yitzchok, R’ Aharon of Karlin, R’ Mendel of Kotzk) describe this as a metaphor, where one is donned with pure white clothing, and is also balancing a vessel of oil on his head. The slightest deviation from being perfectly straight and steady (referring to one’s focus on Yiras Shomayim) will lead to the oil spilling over everything and making a mess out of the clothing. Once again, the message about clothing is just a metaphor.
I return to my original question. Is there a Torah source for wearing white shirts?
DY:
You wrote: “Why do you call them “hooligans”, “laydig gayers”, and “a bizayon”?
They’re cholim! Have rachmanus!”Glad you asked. The choleh that gets treatment is the one who seeks help, or struggles with that because of personal suffering. They are not claiming tzidkus while damaging others. When pure yetzer horah dresses as a tzaddik, the problem is greater. If HKB”H wishes to consider that as a choleh, He can certainly do so. We cannot. We are not experiencing his illness, we are experiencing his violence and damage being inflicted on others. There needs to be zero tolerance. As far as yenem’s spirituality, we have little to no control. Our limitations on tochachah are severe, and the efficacy of that is also poor. It is the rare exception when a doctor can successfully treat the resistant patient. As long as anyone conveys to these thugs that they are doing something holy, they will trash their learning to be busy being לוחם מלחמות השם. That’s what they did here. If this behavior gets rewarded, it will continue.
I am all for therapy, and recognizing that OTD kids are cholim. I still hold them responsible for their behavior. The OTD kid that steals money from the parents to finance their vices is still liable. The illness does not absolve them of responsibility for their actions.
Shopping:
You have either drunk from the koolaid, or you are saying that the “value system” of white shirts is senseless, but we’re stuck with it. The reality is that it makes no sense at all, is arbitrary, and is believed to have magical powers that are associated with kedusha. This is completely untrue. I will dare anyone to provide sources in Torah for this mishugaas.
I wear a white shirt every day, and do not own others. I do not believe that my shirt color defines me as anything at all. Rather, my mission in life is to be the best Yid I can, maximizing Torah, Avodah, and Gemilus Chassodim. If I need to somehow assess someone, my yardstick is never connected to attire, which tells me nothing beyond the choices of stores. I need to know character.
gilda:
Show us all a serious comment. Please.
Sadly, our generation has adopted the standard that the clothes make the man. For anyone that has studied Torah, there are countless references to the contrary.
Chassidus does give ample basis to the influence of chitzoniyus on pnimiyus. However, to be defined by the choice of clothing is beyond anything Torah recommends. רחמנא ליבא בעי is a clear reference to the ultimate being the internal. The cloak of honor, when incongruent with the internal is what was described by Shlomo Hamelech – נזם זהב באף חזיר.
The dress codes in yeshivos may be based on a good idea, but they have achieved a momentum of their own, and no longer are directed at the growth of the talmid. Just visit the photos of many of today’s Gedolei Yisroel as they dressed in Europe as talmidim in yeshivos there. If a talmid today wore those clothes, he would be expelled on sight. Can someone show me what changed? Sure, the streets are not the same, and our generation has its share of contemporary nisyonos. Where are the budding Gedolei Yisroel that emerge from this dress code controlled generation? Will they become great because of their dedication to Torah and Avodas Hashem, or will they attribute their greatness to having worn a white shirt from age 13?
I am anxious to hear others’ thoughts on this.
BaltimoreMaven:
Your last comment is laughable. Perhaps another few words will help. Maybe not. I will not keep trying to explain myself, and really do not feel a need to do so. But her’s another try.
I will not divulge much about myself, but I am among those that strongly believes that a wedding is an incredibly important experience, most for the chosson-kallah, secondarily the parents and family, and next to other friends and family who partake of the simcha. It is (hopefully for the chosson-kallah) a once in a lifetime experience, and it has gigantic spiritual significance. That is very real, and not just a nice painting. The minhagim that are followed at simchos, each faction of Yiddishkeit as per their heritage, are truly holy, and connect today with the generations that preceded us. I am not in any way mocking or belittling a minhag. I have witnessed some minhagim that were novel, even strange to me, and I maintain the deepest respect for them. None of that is the issue here. I just addressed the ideal, and a goal of every chasunah. My complaint concerns the actual, which fails too often to approach the ideal.
I have paid attention to the Chosson sitting opposite the badchan. It is the rare exception that this environment involves the chosson crying and doing teshuvah. Mostly, they are noticing who enters, particularly close family and rabbonim, and accepting the wishes of mazel tov. That is not a bad thing. But they are distracted much of the time from the solemn experience that the minhag tries to establish. The length of time is an important factor. The words טירחא דציבורא refer to a reason to be מבטל certain things so as to not impose the time passage on others. Those words are as relevant to the simcha as to the shul.
Please look up the words ad hominem. They do not apply to a minhag. And I do not trash minhagim, just the practice of them when they are conducted in a manner that defies the purpose.
Mitzvah tantz – This is indeed a heilige mitzvah, and has become a serious problem. The process of badchanus has departed from the small ritual to the level of a professional performance. Calling up someone for the honor was once something that occupied a few minutes at the longest. Now, it can easily extend to a half hour. The content of recounting the lives of everyone, from the parents, grandparents, and converting a time of serious simcha to sadness is not what the minhag once was. It evolved into this. The honoree at mitzvah tantz years ago would dance for a brief time in front of the kallah. No longer. The tantz itself can lest several minutes. When a rebbe does this, I would hope and expect that there are heilige kavonos. But when every “Tom, Dick, and Harry” does this, we are observing something very different. Each honoree is now a public performer. That was not the minhag.
I am not trashing anybody. I am just pointing out that the minhagim of yesteryear have grown into something else. This something else takes an awfully long time. I may choose to spend my time doing whatever I wish. But I do not own the time of others. Making them stay up at my simchos because of today’s version of “minhagim” is direct conflict with my understanding of טירחא דציבורא.
I am not making fum or trashing. I would hope that the message that simcha is an emotion that bursts forth in a manner that follows tradition and heritage (and kal vachomer halacha). The trends we are observing are problematic, and deviate from what our heilige zeides and rebbeim established.
You may disagree if you wish. I do not intend to continue this debate.
BaltimoreMaven:
I debated whether to respond. I voted not to do so. My comment stands for itself. I reviewed it, and I have no reason why to defend it or qualify it. Mod is correct. I am not the least insulted. You may disagree, and I have no problem hearing your point. As for the ad hominem, I do not direct my life in a popularity contest. Plus the anonymity of a screen name is an excellent camouflage.
Meanwhile, I attend quite a few weddings, both chassidishe and litvishe. Each has its nice points, and each has its detractors. The OP is correct in noting that the weddings often are too long. This often involves being too costly. One of my weddings (my children’s) was in a hall that had takanos that were quite strict. The musician, singer, badchan, and photographers collected similar pay, and did not lose out from the simcha ending a few hours earlier. We saved on the catering, and coming home at a more decent hour made the simcha more enjoyable. I actually found davening with a minyan the following morning much easier.
Jersey Jew:
I agree. Yeshivos do not cause 99% of the OTD problem. But the extreme the other direction is also a definite lie. No one has statistics that are scientifically reliable. We only have observation. And those who are in the trenches are work with these issues constantly have a perspective that is valuable, even if the numbers are off. There is a tendency for discussions on this topic play ping pong with the blame. “It’s the chinuch system.” “It’s the parents.” Each case varies. There is plenty of poorly exercised chinuch. There is plenty of bad parenting. Denying all responsibility is morally dishonest, and insures that big chunks of the problem will never go away.
Today’s world offers incredible ease of access to influences that are a threat to young developing minds. The schedules of parents are hectic, and make the mission of spending quality time with their children a challenge. The trends of what is acceptable and the “norm” are constantly changing, and generations struggle to recognize what is now “in”. The confusion is widespread, and nothing today is being done on a large enough scale to steady it.
Learning Torah is great. Forcing someone to adapt to a curriculum that is incompatible with his/her character is dooming the child to failure. Full time learning is bad advice for some people, and making that the yardstick is irresponsible. But trends win out over logic every time.
With all this chaos, the shortcomings of all those in caregiving positions, whether parent or mechanech, are dangerous. What do we expect from our kids?
There are other factors that make this situation problematic. At chassidishe chasunahs, there is this ritual called badchanus. This places one in front of the chosson before the badeken, and he can drone on with no one listening for quite some time. I was explained the reason for this minhag, to say דברי כבושין before the chosson to keep his focus serious and somber. Me thinks this could be accomplished in under 5 minutes.
At MItzvah tantz, we get to observe something very serious, where badchanim are instructed to drone on for endless introductions and eulogies. The longer the intro, the more kovod is believed to be given. I fail to see this as meaningful at all. Additionally, the amount of time taken to dance before the kallah is obscene, with every honoree cavorting as if engaged in some exalted exercise of דברים נסתרים. Then there is this comparatively new phenomenon of the chosson dancing individually with everyone, including the mechutanim, zaides, uncles, and VIP’s. The music is also expected to accommodate to play certain nigunim to respect each individual. Someone who is not invited to dance with the chosson is apt to feel excluded and demeaned.
I grew to enjoy the down time when the music rests, as it is so loud that socializing with anyone is virtually impossible. I know this delays everything, but I actually enjoy it more than the dancing.
It is a separate thread, but the dancing, and often the choice of music, are hardly compatible with a Yiddishe simcha. Someone commented than any menahel that dances to some of the music commonly played at today’s weddings would be a total hypocrite if he gave mussar or disciplinary consequences to a talmid caught listening to goyishe music.
The OP proposes an idea that is wonderful on paper (and sometimes might actually work). However, this is often a worthy concern but impossible.
Mental illness usually develops between the ages of 10-11 through 25-26. There certainly are exceptions to this range. The hormonal changes that precede puberty are influential in this, and so are genetics. But it is wholly possible that the condition is not detected until the 20’s. I am aware of cases where a couple married, with both of them symptom free, and one of them later developed a serious mental illness. There is no one to blame or hold responsible. Similarly, the development of the mental illness is seldom an overnite experience, but rather the array of symptoms develop gradually. This makes the issue complex in that the evaluating professional is trying to assess a moving target.
I would urge anyone seeking evaluation (if the need presents) seeking a professional that is trained to work with that age group. All mental health evaluation involves a certain amount of guess work, as it is a soft science. But the more experienced and educated guess is a better bet. An underscore is that tefiloh is warranted, as the ultimate healer is HKB”H. We have our hishtadlus to make, and our obligation is to do this with the best of responsibility. Then, Hashem takes over and guides these professionals and their interventions with Syatta Dishmaya.
Joseph:
You wrote: “Some doctors keep people waiting for no other than to seem busier than they are.” I also believed that. There are certain realities that suggest this is a myth. Firstly, doctor’s offices are seriously understaffed. Secondly, the use of doctor’s for impromptu visits is commonplace. In this era when payments to doctors are significantly decreased, and insurance premiums for malpractice are skyrocketing, the funds to provide more staff are limited. There is newer technology that makes things quicker and easier, which also costs. There are more non-physicians (nurses, PA’s, etc.) providing services today, and this all comes with its disadvantages.
One of the most respected medical journals carried an article many years ago where the suggestion was that the patient send the doctor a bill for the waiting time, which makes sense if that patient works in a field where charge is levied by units of time.
A down side of waiting in doctors offices, aside from the delay factor is the exposure to other sick people and the microbes they carry. This poses potential risk, especially when there are contagious diseases like flu that have been at epidemic levels.
Avram:
In a few of your comments, you have labeled me something that I am not. Whether this fits the technicality of מכנה שם לחבירו or not is not the issue. But I should clarify, so that you are not walking around believing that I am okay with kids being mechalel Shabbos just because telling them not to would be rejection.
For starters, we are dealing with a kid that is already acting out, not initial chinuch. The OTD kid is doing so in pain, though we may not know what precipitated it. This is not about the blame game either. What we do tell a kid is what will produce the best result for the kid. If imposing will on him just makes him rebel, then we need to find another option. No, I do not absolve the kid of responsibility either. But his acting out from his personal pain does not designate him as an apikores either.
The argument I make is that boundary setting, a critical part of basic chinuch, must be done right and at the proper time. At the wrong time, it does not convey a message of direction but a set of criteria to earn punishment. That message rejects, and has no place in chinuch. No one would be pleased to be ordered around like that, and at the very least, מה דעלך סני לחברך לא תעביד. If one needs to give this direction to a kid that is already OTD, or even struggling, there needs to be guidance how to accomplish that. I will share a general rule in all of chinuch. Absolutely everything that is done in the way of chinuch must be focused on bringing about the desired result of the child’s learning (whether information or behavior). The role of the mechanech (rebbe, teacher, or parent) is to teach, not control. There are times when it becomes necessary to engage in control, but that is not true chinuch, and should also be the exception. When we fail to teach אהבת השם to our children and talmidim, we have failed at our mission. No one is perfect, and many of us will have experienced failures.
I do not believe that boundaries are forms of rejection. But the kid needs to hear it as a boundary, not a criterion for punishment or tolerance. Hashem’s love for Klal Yisroel was ever present even after the חטא העגל. That needs to be our role model for how to love. Under the very worst conditions, Hashem never interrupted the מן or the בארה של מרים. He never rejected us, even throughout the turbulent years of the דור המדבר with a series of negative events. I humbly believe that HKB”H knows a lot better than humans, and that the love for a Yid needs to be unconditional. Ultimate rejection is not in our domain. If we are machmir on everything else in life, why not apply that to the cherishing of a Yiddishe neshomoh?
The matter at hand is that the secondary has been prioritized in a manner that affects the market. We all know about the eating of fruit on Tu Bishvat. To carry the issue to the current is a disservice, and throws things out of balance. Should one fund the public coffers to supply such fruit to the less privileged? I am not saying it would be nice to deprive people who suffer poverty. But it is not a mitzvah, just a symbolic act. Yes, there were some that tried to make the brocho of shehechiyanu on Tu Bishvat. Again, nice. But not halacha. I have heard of a minhag to eat 15 different fruit on Tu Bishvat. Can we make such demands? Well, our generation witnesses these things being made into priorities. Someone who fails to do this is apt to frowned upon, and some may even scorn. And this is unwarranted.
Perhaps we can create a fund raiser for some worthy organizations that will accept donations in exchange for a talmid chochom eating fruit on Tu Bishvat while praying for you. Sounds far fetched? Enter any frum food store and scan the array of merchandise displayed. By next year, it may appear as a banner ad on YWN!
Avram:
You’re free to question the context and veracity of the reports I presented from the Divrei Yoel, Rav Elyashiv, and others. I am plenty skeptic, and all those who shared these incidents with me, in print, in video, or word of mouth are implicitly trusted by me. I cannot force anyone to accept those bits of information. Myself, I do not always accept such things, and won’t fault anyone for doing the same.
The overriding point is that the whitewash pronouncement of the Satmar Dayanim is not acceptable. yes, I respect them, but they are wrong here. Their pilpul is simply not applicable, concerning the facts. And there is ample support from a great variety of Gedolei Yisroel (Many references I cited in detail that can be verified) that such discarding of neshamos is certainly unwarranted. Whether one must accept them all can be questioned (I acknowledge teshuvah inasmuch as I would want HKB”H to accept mine). No one was discussing a single situationin which dayanim paskened to reject. The matter at hand was a generalization that all OTD kids are to be permanently rejected, zero kiruv, and no possibility of teshuvah. That deserves my defiance.
For those who are inclined to be rejecting of other Yidden, I guess there is the freedom to buy the Satmar publication. For me, it goes into the shaimos pile.
Avram:
Your discussion of the two brothers was neither rational nor stable. It was pure sarcasm. That is one way of making a point when there is not one to make. Much of your commenting has been rational, whether I agreed with you or not. This was frankly bizarre. When I address the tolerance of the wayward kid, I never insinuated that we should withdraw support from a good kid for the OTD one. Your insinuation was a bizarre extension of my message. i would think you understood that.
Joseph:
I stand by my statements. I have had the occasion (not exactly occasional) to speak with mechanchim of all groups, persuasions, and affiliations. While most deny engaging in public shaming, nearly all justify it as an accepted, Torah compliant form of discipline. I have needed to confront rebbeim about this often. It was once quite dramatic, with extremely awful things being said. One rebbe I knew would punish a talmid by sending him to every other classroom in the building, standing before these other classes, and telling everyone that he was a bad boy. The laughter was horribly biting and painful. Thankfully, that rebbe has not been allowed in a classroom for many years now. Today’s shaming is less dramatic, but there is plenty. I can cite examples, and many of these involve multiple incidents, not just one. One rebbe was upset that a talmid returned late from recess (he had gone to the bathroom). The rebbe took him around to other classes, and told everyone to stop being friends with this boy, as he was a bad influence. That boy dropped out of yeshiva completely, with erroneous messages about his behavior history preceding him to every attempt to learn elsewhere. I know many kids who were taken out of a class with the announcement that the parents had defaulted on their tuition payments. The sending home issue is worth debating, and I defer on that. But the public forum for this is inexcusable. These were events that repeated many, many times, with different details. Sorry, Joseph, but the improvements in chinuch that richly deserve praise have only begun. There is a long way to go.
Avram:
Your comment is neither accurate nor responsible. I thought your intellect was above that.
Joseph:
Sorry, but I am in the know on this. I stated fact, not some bizarre idea/accusation.
Joseph:
Bad news for you. The shaming incidents are not rare or tiny exceptions. I am stating fact. Painful, but true.
The reason things are not worse than they are is because of resilience. Many of our kids are B”H resilient, and tolerate these forms of abuse without traumatic effect. Include bullying, when the perpetrators are peers. When our kids make it, they are often angelic. Someone once quipped at an Agudah Convention, “Our kids come out okay from the current chinuch system not because of the system but despite it. That was stated from the microphone, and the speaker was not stoned.
ME12345:
Two corrections. “most of these teens need serious physiology” You meant psychology. Lok up definitions.
You wrote: “Most otd teens went off because of their parents.” I would not generalize like that. Most OTD went off because of experiences with adults. I cannot cite any statistics, but it is close to a draw between parents and chinuch. There is plenty of inadequate, even bad, parenting. True. There is also a huge amount of abusiveness in chinuch. No, I am not making a mountain out of a molehill.
Let’s start with a personal question. How many of your rebbeim from your elementary and high school years do you still keep contact with? If any, why not the others? Keep your answer to yourself, but it will tell you something about that rebbe that remains with you. That is real chinuch.
Next, there is hardly a day during which a yeshiva experience involved not a single instance of a member of the hanhala embarrassing a talmid. Yes, public shaming. Some cases might have been particularly severe, others not so dramatic. But the impact on the child can be lasting and deep. These occurrences are very far from rare, and do not even qualify as uncommon. This is tantamount to emotional murder. Once you have been shamed by a rebbe, you will never revere him again. Children also generalize to all adults. Maybe one rebbe was the culprit in this, but the child is apt to consider all members of the hanhala guilty. This is not a simple issue. The Rambam refers to the use of shame as a tool in teaching. But if you check out the context of that halacha, it is definitely not a first approach. It is as much a last resort as a potch. But it is popular.
I have heard some hair raising things that yeshiva boys, elementary and high school, have been told. If your child spoke that way to your grandchild, you would be enraged.
There is a lot that mechanchim need to learn about discipline. A good rebbe rarely needs it, if ever. The more use of discipline, the poorer quality a rebbe or teacher. Now, the talmid is the victim of this. And it is not just a rare exceptional case. I know way too many situations in which OTD kids pointed directly to a rebbe, with a long list of alarming events. Most of these events were not when the rebbe was dealing with an OTD kid, but long before the transformation.
Again, no numbers, but close to a draw between parents and chinuch. Either way, the kid is escaping. These kids (as you stated, 95%) are not kofrim, and do not meet the qualifications for complete and final rejection, even if the Satmar pilpul is accurate.
Avram:
You wrote: “And whoosh – out the escape hatch you go. Boundaries are good, but only if you “teach” them beforehand, and it’s almost impossible to teach them all beforehand. And now they’ll just be viewed as punitive. So…”
Boundaries can be taught to anyone. But the teaching methods must be a fit for the child. Shlomo Hamelech told us that. Parents were not given an instruction manual upon birth of the child, and must try to accommodate the best they can. It works most of the time, but sometimes do not. I have watched parents who recognized that a child responded to teaching in different ways, and have taken steps to accommodate. While there are more options today than there were a half century ago, we are more apt to push our kids into the molds of the yeshivos, with far less accommodation than ever. And we have the fruit of such labor. More OTD kids than any time in our recorded history.
If our teaching of boundaries failed, instituting them after the kid is already into the phase of acting out will certainly fail. You may be fortunate that no acts of chilul Shabbos occur under your roof, but you may not know the whereabouts of your child. This is not a simple dilemma, and there is no “one size fits all” answer. Presenting boundaries to the OTD child might sound “right” but it is ineffective. Our real questions should be, “What will work?” “How much compromise is appropriate?” “Is this kid ready for kiruv and embrace?” “What are the child’s needs at this time?”
Avram:
Long comment. Many responses. Will separate them so that the mods can post them, and dialogue can continue.
You wrote: “This is nonsensical. If my car is continually ramming a barrier, it’s not because the highway administration randomly put a guardrail up for my car to crash into. It’s because my car is veering off the road.”
Precisely my point. If boundaries are taught properly earlier, they have become ingrained. If there is ramming, there is a problem. The car that keeps veering into the guardrail needs to be reguided. The barrier might prevent from going off the cliff or into the ditch. But it does not constitute guidance or chinuch. And it does not create a safer highway.
You wrote: “I think, unfortunately, that the majority of OTD issues arise within the influence of a toxic peer culture…”
Sometimes happens, but this is a real minority. Most kids that go OTD are running nowhere, looking for somewhere they feel accepted. They are on the escape. Talk to anyone who works with these kids. Yes, the OTD culture accepts them. But why are they running away from a life we know to be so rich with spirituality, moral value, and closeness to HKB”H? The answer to this question is as individual as facial appearance. כשם שאין פרצופיהם שונות. These kids are not attracted to leave the fold. They are running from it, and the “bad friends” welcome them. Those bad friends were once in the same situation.
iacisrmma:
You wrote: “If it was written in a sefer of R’ Mendel that we no longer have, how can you be certain that he descendants know or don’t know of it?”
These descendants told me so, clearly. They are a family of very chassishe Yidden, Bnei Torah.
Next, Reb Mendele advocated reciting it every day. That is not disputed. It has sources in kadmonim. Reb Mendele was quite busy with Parshas Hamon, saying Divrei Torah on just this topic for many years. There is no challenge to that. All I said was that the Tuesday Beshalach is a fabrication. And I have witnesses who observed this fabrication being developed. Reciting Parshas Hamon is no more a segula that day than if it is recited any other day of the year. It is a myth gone viral. People like to create minhagim, and this is wrong.
Avram:
You wrote: “B = Boundaries are good in theory, but if a child has problems with boundaries, the boundaries should fall by the wayside, because it’s not loving or accepting to make a child with boundary issues face boundaries.”
I happen to believe that boundaries are good in more than theory. Boundaries that exist only on the architect plans do not protect anyone. Boundaries must exist in reality.
Now let’s explore the reality of this issue. I noted earlier than boundaries, to be effective, must be taught, not imposed. I want the guardrails on the highway to serve as a visual cue to maintain the proper direction of my car. To create a guardrail that one will continually ram, even if it effectively blocked the vehicle from exiting the highway, is not a boundary, but a barrier. That may be useful in the perimeter of a prison. It is dysfunctional in a home, even if it actually works.
My kids need to be happy in my home, not looking for the loophole to break out. Imposed boundaries create the barrier that kids look to circumvent. They have learned nothing. And I have perpetuated their negative status.
Boundaries need to be taught, where the kids learn what is right and wrong, what is good or not. I suggest that a great many OTD situations involve problems with this process, having been done incorrectly, or in a manner that was not effective. Now that the kid is acting out, now we are going to impose boundaries. This does not work. This imposition of boundaries is a parallel with rejection, because that’s the only message. Sure, the situation is frustrating. I freak when my toddler grandchildren discover a light switch they can reach. No one wants chilul Shabbos in their home. But the fight is futile, and carries major risk, in short term and long term.
One additional thought. We are conditioned to being mechanech all our children the exact same way. Shlomo Hamelech told us חנוך לנער על פי דרכו. The instruction includes that this derech may not be that which I would choose, and also not the derech that works for another child. We may have done a great job at teaching boundaries to all our children. But if, for whatever reason, it did not work with this one child, I have an obligation to accomplish that teaching in a way that will be effective. That is the OTD kid. Not necessarily bad parents. Just the failure to match the right parenting skills needed for that kid.
This subject gets center stage every year. The question is not whether there is a segula in reciting Parshas Hamon. There is ample reference to this. The issue is whether there is any significance whatsoever to Tuesday of Parshas Beshalach.
I have yet to see a single reputable source for this. I am acquainted with a rather big Talmid Chochom, a Rosh Yeshiva in one of the Chassidishe Yeshivos, who stated publicly that he remembers exactly when this “minhag” was formed. It was approximately in 1947, and was part of a casual conversation among a group of baalei batim in a shul on the Lower East Side.
Meanwhile, virtually any reference to Tuesday Beshalach postdates that. I would be open to any factual challenge to this.
BTW, I also know a devoutly Chassidishe family that comes from Rimanov, and are also descendants of Reb Mendele ZT”L, and they know nothing of any such mesora from Reb Mendele about this “minhag” of Tuesday Beshalach. Again, I am open to any factual challenge.
Meanwhile, I believe there is no such minhag, and that is was fabricated. It is attributed to Reb Mendele, who was an advocate to recite Parshas Hamon every day. The originator had the mazel, and his fabrication went viral.
RebYidd23:
You speak truth. People confuse chinuch with setting boundaries. They do not have to be separate things. If setting boundaries teaches, then it is chinuch. If setting boundaries makes family ties conditional, if setting boundaries rejects, if setting boundaries is a message of an authoritarian relationship, it is not chinuch. It becomes part of the problem, not part of a solution.
When someone enters a new job, they are provided with a list of company policies. Many of these are rules. But there is a paycheck, and there are benefits. If the relationships with bosses, coworkers, etc. are poor, the person is likely to seek employment elsewhere. At least the rules came with some positives. And sometimes the match won’t work.
Boundaries are crucial. But we want to teach them, and the dynamics of the home environment flow in a positive way. If we impose rules that are confining, as a show of force, sacrificing the family relationship for decorum, basing the love on compliance, we are rejecting. That rejection shows the kid that they do not matter at all, and will be expelled for the parents’ convenience and comfort. Nobody considers that chinuch, and this is certainly never the ideal.
Boundaries must be taught, not imposed. I think that should be simple enough. Sadly, we were not taught how to parent before we became parents.
Avram:
You wrote: ” Parents who have no boundaries are not parents. They are avoiders and negligent.”
I completely agree with you. Parents are obligated to teach their children boundaries. Successful parents manage this well. Others do not.
You have drawn a parallel between absence of boundaries and rejection. They are definitely not the same. The ultimate rejection, which is what the Satmar publication advocates is something I will never accept. Neither would the Divrei Yoel, and countless other rabbonim and gedolim. And, no, I do not have any “straw” gedolim. I presented enough references from seforim to review and see the statements in print. And there are other seforim I have not yet seen.
The question we need to ask is what do we do with a child that failed to learn boundaries and expects to violate them in the home. This is certainly a problem. The dismissive “throw him out, and do not ever allow him to be recognized as having done teshuvah and returned” is not acceptable. If this individual had explored other ideologies and left Yiddishkeit for any of these, we are dealing with a kefira issue. I would never publish the psak from Satmar Dayanim to be lifted and implemented, as it is dinei nefashos, and each case needs to be investigated individually. I do not think it could never be accurate, but would need a separate diyun before implementing. The Rebbe of Kotzk stated clearly that “Not everything that is said should be written. Not everything that is written should be published.” That’s the story here.
I completely believe that the overwhelming percentage of OTD kids leave the fold because they are escaping, not because of some intellectual attraction to something else. That does not qualify for the metziyus of kefira, and their psak is not relevant.
I will defer to others here to debate whose authority matters. My issue is different, and all my comments on this thread point to the single most crucial variable here. I stated that this is not under jurisdiction as a matter of kefira and how to handle that. I stated, again I repeat, based on much interaction with gedolim of today and yesterday, many of their quotes (some were presented her), and considerable experience and study, this is an emotional issue. If that is ignored, it is misinterpreted as kefira. But that is rarely true, if ever. I therefore reject the publication of the Satmar Dayanim as irrelevant to the subject, while it might well be academic genius. The throwing away of anyone is unacceptable to me, and I believe, באמונה שלימה that HKB”H is desirous of teshuvah by anyone at any time. For those who want to portray me as being מבזה תלמידי חכמים, go ahead. I can continue to have utmost respect for them. Here, they are flatly wrong, and their drawback is not knowing the metziyus. Again, I am more qualified in that arena, and I disagree.
Received in email from R’ Avi Fishoff: (copied and pasted)
The famous Dayan HaRav Binyumin Gruber shlyt”a told these stories to me and gave me permission to say them over in his name:
A Satmar chussid came to his Rebbeh the Divrei Yoel zy”a crying bitterly about his son who was extremely rebellious to the extent that he was off the derech, r”l.
The father exclaimed that he was fed up with the boy and wanted to throw him out of the house!
The Rebbeh zy”a told him very clearly: “DO NOT SEND HIM OUT OF YOUR HOUSE!”
When the father expressed his frustration because the child was so rebellious and would not conform to the rules of the house and they simply could not deal with him the way that he was acting, the Rebbeh zy”a explained to him the secret of how to deal with wayward and rebellious children who do not respond to regular Chinuch:
The Rebbeh zy”a advised the parents to do the exact OPPOSITE of what they were doing and instead of being ‘against’ him – ADERABA – prove your LOVE and ADMIRATION to him by spoiling him and showering him with EXTRA love!
The Rebbeh gave an example of how to win this child back by BOOSTING HIM: “Whatever amount of money you usually give your kids – give this child DOUBLE!”
(HaRav Yankele Pshevorsk zy”a gave similar advice to a very Chassidishe family whose son brought a shiksa to live with him in their home! His words were: “Give him MORE LOVE and MORE MONEY!” Indeed this seemingly “Twisted” advice ultimately proved to be successful and the son returned and built a beautiful chassidishe family to the extent that his daughter is currently a teacher in a Chassidishe moised!)
When the father expressed to the Divrei Yoel that they were worried about the negative influence on the other siblings in the house, the Rebbeh zy”a replied: “Send all of the other children out of the house and give THIS CHILD ALL of your attention!”
(The same exact advice was given by HaRav Elyashiv ztz”l and the Lubavitcher Rebbeh zy”a. We see that ALL Gedolim were not agreeable to EVER lose a child!)
The lesson:
People mistakenly believe that we must be MIRACHEIK (reject) the sinners, while our Gedolim understood that ADERABA (on the contrary) we must SPOIL them!
People mistakenly believe that HaShem wants us to CUT OFF those who sin against him, while our Gedolim understood that ADERABA (on the contrary) we must pull them even closer to us!
People mistakenly think – if we show him that we are ok with him, why would he ever change??? Yet we see that the big Gedolim all understood very clearly that what saves these children is baking in a strong feeling EXTREME UNCONDITIONAL SUPPORT & ACCEPTANCE!
People often ask me – where does it say that we should be mikarrev those who go off the derech? Before I list the myriad of sources from the Zohar to the Baal Shem Tov to the Chazon Ish, I ask them: where is your source saying that you should reject them?
Why is the natural standard of reaction of so many frum people to FIGHT AND REJECT those who struggle?
We have lost TOO MANY souls from the misguidance of REJECTION.
Let us all learn from the Gedolim and make sure not to reject our struggling souls!
We must replace REECHOK – with KIRRUV!
We must replace REJECTION – with CONNECTION!
We must replace CRITICISM – with COMPLIMENTS!
We must replace JUDGEMENT – with UNDERSTANDING!
We must replace cold negative looks – with warm positive smiles!
And finally:
It is time for us to replace our own IGNORANCE – with HaShem’s TOLERANCE!
I have seen the miracles that HaShem bestows on those who follow in His ways as taught to us by all of the real gedolim of the past generations.GAON:
The publication from the Satmar Dayanim was not the psak of a Beis Din in a specific instance. It was for general consumption, and seeks to establish a halachic precedent to apply when someone from המון עם deals with an OTD kid. That is a huge problem. Who assessed this kid? Is every OTD kid a kofer? I suggest that there is a microscopic percentage that go these ways due to intellectual motives. Everyone else, the vast overwhelming majority, are doing so for emotional reasons. That is metzius. I happen to be more qualified than the dayanim to assess that. How is a regular baal haboss supposed to address his child that is OTD. With rejection, hate, etc.? I suggest that this is NOT a general psak that belongs in circulation. The examples I gave were not from drush, and were not exceptional cases.
Joseph:
You wrote: “Gaon, Halacha empowers us (meaning Beis Din bzman hazeh) to enforce bein adam lmakom Halachas, even via corporal punishment if necessary.”
Can you provide a reference please? Are you insinuating that the BD has the authority to reject a Baal Teshuvah (which is not the halacha that HKB”H follows)? Can BD punish someone who is mechalel Shabbos? Which BD, and how do they exercise that authority?
Joseph:
You wrote: “Respect for in-laws is like Kibud Av V’Eim. You must do it whether it is earned or not.”
Except that for in-laws it is not D’Oraysa.
Technically, that is correct. One must respect in-laws. The issue here extends into the reality matter. One can fulfill the “respect” here by refraining from being disrespectful. In reality, we seek a goal of a mutually respectful and congenial relationship. That cannot be demanded. If it were, it would be artificial, and that would be obvious. It needs to be a genuine one, which is generated by nice feelings and behaviors that are in the proper emotional context. That cannot be demanded.
If we get hung up on the technicality, we will create a nice picture show, without the commensurate emotional relationship. That is certainly not the goal. I guess someone can choose such a scene, but I never would.
mdd1:
I am not disrespecting the Satmar Dayanim. I never spoke of them with disrespect, and despite drastic disagreement, I do not consider them negative. I believe they are dangerously wrong, and I have provided a small sample of guidance from Gedolei Yisroel to support the position. Likewise, the experience of so many proves my point, that only love and embrace brings these kids back. MY disagreement is not based on their Torah knowledge, but in their understanding of the subject matter. I have no problem with stating that I qualify to assess that, and kal vachomer many others who I referenced above.
The question about how we are to act, knowing their position and that of nearly all other gedolim is serious, as the consequences are potentially grave. I would say that for someone to pick up their publication and blindly follow it is grossly irresponsible. Before examining how to deal with a specific situation, I believe one needs to be fully informed. One must be aware that this psak from the Satmar Dayanim is a lone shittah, and opposite of all other poskim. For anyone that has experience with learning gemora, it is not unusual for there to be a shittas tanaim or amora’im, and certainly among rishonim and acharonim that is a lone voice. We are obligated to follow the majority. I am not prescribing what to do for anyone else, but to stay away from a lone shittas yochid has great precedent. But I am not a talmid chochom, so these words of wisdom do not apply.
Lastly, I disagree with the premise that these OTD kids are kofrim. They are kids in pain, and are the same בנים למקום as the greatest תלמידי חכמים. Among the seforim I quoted earlier, several discuss the status of חולה נפש, while others use terminology of חולה הרגשי. Check them out. Then direct your disagreement to them. I have just studied their seforim, gained much practical experience, and communicate with contemporary Gedolei Yisroel. That’s how I formulate my positions.
Continuing with additional references.
• Rav Shach ZT”L was approached by a father whose son was expelled from a yeshiva. The Rosh Hayeshiva felt that this bochur would ruin others. The father cried to Rav Shach, but he refused to intervene. If the yeshiva needs to put the bochur out, that’s what needs to be. After this father left, Rav Shach summoned his gabbai. He stated that what he told the father was truth, but that the matter did not stop there. That was for the yeshiva. But what will be with this bochur? He cannot be sent to the street where he will deteriorate further. Rav Shach asked to be connected to another Rosh Yeshiva, and finally established the contact to place the bochur. He did not relax until that placement was completed. Expulsion may be necessary, but the child cannot be abandoned. (Mesoras Hachinuch, p. 87)
• Rav Gamliel Rabinovich shlit”a (Tiv Hachinuch p. 306) writes about the OTD child. “Therefore, when we approach this bochur, we first ask them how they are, and continue to speak to them ina friendly way to establish a connection. Everyone that has an inherent love for HKB”H needs to experience pain over those people that do not serve Hashem, and we must therefore invest our energy to be mekarev them to Hashem. The way to accomplish this is to not look at them askance, and not to concentrate on their faults and their inappropriate behavior. But the contrary, we must look and emphasize their assets, the mitzvos and good deeds they have done until now, as they have certainly accumulated many millions of mitzvos, D’Oraysa and D’Rabbonon as well as minhagim. And even if now they are not acting properly, the Chachomim tell us (Chagiga 27a) that HKB”H loves even the sinners. When we increase our love for them, they will recioprocate their love for us, and we can thus restore them to a closeness to HKB”H. It is clear to any Bar Daas that these bochurim need much kiruv and love, as even their physical situation is not favorable to them. And even if they appear to be physically happy, that is a façade. Being mekarev a single neshomoh is a zechus for generations, hundreds and thousands of potential Yidden who will fulfill mitzvos. (This was translated and adapted somewhat. The interested reader is encouraged to study this in the original, and the ensuing pages of the sefer.)This question cannot be answered in generality. There are likely disrespectful young men. There are also those fathers-in-law that fail to earn the respect. It is true that sons-in-law have the same obligation to be respectful of the shver regardless. But when the shver is making a claim, seeking this respect, the question must be asked whether he deserves it.
One would assume that Bnei Torah should know better. That is for an ideal world, to which we should strive. Sadly, the average Ben Torah is not provided the guidance to develop good midos. The typical mussar seder in yeshiva tends to be academic, not how to implement. This is likely the result of yeshivos being as large as they are, impeding the goal of providing individual attention to develop one’s potential.
Joseph, mdd1, Et al
The discussion here seems to have deteriorated into a personal attack. In reality, my presence here is anonymous, being behind a screen name. I haven’t a care what anyone here thinks of me as a person, whether I qualify as a talmid chochom or not. My Torah and midos will be judged by Hashem, whose ultimate judgment matters. Go ahead and believe what you wish about TLIK. I am not invested in a popularity contest. We will all sleep by night and work by day. I do hope you all enjoy Avodas Hashem, bringing yourselves and others closer to HKB”H.
Next, for those who wonder about my gender, I am a male, married to a great woman. We have a great family B”H. I studied in mainstream yeshivas, and I have maintained a close relationship with several members of the hanhala of my alma mater. I am not sure what my style of writing says about my gender. I do have a college degree, and have written and published a bit.
It bears repeating that OTD kids who misbehave at home are causing the family, parents and sibs, great discomfort. No one suggests to be pleased with that. No one says a home cannot have rules or boundaries. There are two questions here, and I will support my positions. Is this child a choleh? Should this child be rejected from the home. I stated clearly for question #1 – yes, for question #2 – no.
Now for direct quotes from the “anonymous” Gedolim. Some quotes are translated and paraphrased, but I offer clear and precise references. I refer readers to a sefer published in E”Y in תש”ע called פרי הנושר. There are also quite a few seforim on the subject of chinuch that address our topic.
Here are some samples, with citations:
• Rav Tzadok Hacohen of Lublin ZT”L writes in the Pri Tzaddik concerning the “Ben Rosho” that we recite on Pesach at the Seder. He says, אלו היה שם לא היה נגאל to mean that at that juncture of history such a person would not have been merited to be miraculously saved. But once the Jews were liberated and left Mitzrayim and we were born as a Jewish nation, from then on, no matter how awful his conduct, he can never be detached from his Jewishness. This is true even for someone whose actions have been abominable. That is, in fact, why the Hagadah prefaces these statements with “ברוך הוא” because only Hashem can guarantee that no Jew will be spiritually lost.
• The Nesivos Shalom states in his work on chinuch that when one’s child begins acting out committing issurim, the obligation is “to control oneself, not the child, to shower the child with additional love, not rejection.”
• Rav Shteinman ZT”L (recording) stated that only being mekarev is appropriate for even those committing the most serious aveiros. We are to look away from the aveiros and embrace the children.
• Rav Gershon Edelshtein shlit”a (recording of Rav Shmuel Neiman shlit”a a dayan in Monsey quoting Rav Edelshtein) stated regarding a young girl who was OTD who was buying clothing that was not tznius appropriate that the parents should provide her the money, because that was where she was holding, and to preserve the relationship. Definitely not to throw her out. Rav Neiman also quoted numerous Gedolim that these children today are cholim, not baalei aveiro.
• Rav Shteinman ZT”L (A lengthy quote, translated) was asked by a parent who stated that he would rather his child die then to be OTD. Rav Shteinman’s response: “These people think that they are doing a tremendous Mitzvah by wanting to sacrifice their child just like Avraham Avinu did by ‘Akeidas Yitzchak’! But that is not the case! Avraham was asked to sacrifice his BELOVED child whom he loved more than anything in the world! If a parent is ready to sacrifice a child that he loves so much, a child that gives them great honor and is a tremendous nachass to the family, that is considered a great thing and is truly a sacrifice like ‘Akeidas Yitzchak’! However, if the parents are disgusted with the son because he is not going on the right path and he is a great embarrassment to the family, and that is why the parents are ok with him dying, that is not something to be proud of! That is simply wanting to MURDER a Jewish child because of their own selfish motives due to their own honor! This is not the proper way to talk about a child! On the contrary! The child must be made to BELIEVE that his parents truly LOVE HIM and that it hurts them to see their BELOVED child lose out on a life of real happiness! If this understanding – that his parents truly LOVE HIM – enters into the child’s essence and he really believes that they really love him now: THEN THE CHILD CAN CERTAINLY RETURN!!! It is true that it is a really difficult job, but that is the role of being a parent! It is up to you to daven, to ask advice and to try to do everything possible to HELP the child – not wish him DEAD!”
• Rav Dov Brezak shlit”a writes in his book “Chinuch in Turbulent Times” (p. 387) “Our spiritual leaders have tught us how careful we must be with our children’s precious souls. Contemporary giants no longer with us, including the Chofetz Chaim, the Chazon Ish, R’ Elyah Lopian, R’ Yaakov Kaminetzky, R’ Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, R’ Eliezer Menachem Man Shach, R’ Avrohom Pam, and R’ Avraham Chaim Brim, and those still with us, including R’ Shlomo Wolbe and R’ Michel Yehudah Lefkowitz, all say we must educate our children with love, not with harshness.”
• Rav Wolbe once came to the Chazon Ish regarding a difficult child in his yeshiva. The Chazon Ish told him that a yeshivah can be compared to a hospital; those that come there are not well and need our help. It is our job to make them better. (In Rav Brezak’s book, p. 412-413)
• Rav Ovadia Yosef ZT”L writes in his sefer Maadanei Melech (on Chinuch Yelodim) regarding expelling a talmid from yeshiva for committing serious aveiros. He quotes אין לך דבר העומד בפני התשובה. This perek is lengthy, and anyone interested in his extensive review of the subject should consult that sefer. He repeated the story from the Chofetz Chaim regarding a shiur he presented to an audience of Roshei Yeshivos. To one of them, he refused to respond, and turned his back on him. This was shocking to others who witnessed this. The Chofetz Chaim asked them if they heard of Leon Trotzky, one of the leaders of Communism. He was orphaned at an early age, and his mother sent him to the yeshiva of this particular Rosh Yeshiva. This lad was uncontrollable, and discipline did not help. Finally, he was expelled from the yeshiva. The mother’s pleas were futile. The Chofetz Chaim said that if he would have been mekarev this man, he could have grown into a great talmid chochom. Now he became a terrible hater, and murdered thousands of Yidden.Plenty more, which I can supply in another comment.
T22T:
You wrote: ” When i say mundane i mean in the over all picture its mundane on the large chance of losing your child totally. ”
I agree with this. The trouble here is that the subject being debated is whether there is a mitzvah to lose your child totally because he/she is behaving in ways that depart from your mesorah. And there are some that suggest that the boundaries must be set in ways that complete the rejection and place the risk of no return at an extremely high level. This seems to be the position of the of the Satmar Dayanim in their publication, and I take strong issue with that as antithetical to the derech of Torah, as understood by all the Gedolei Yisroel of the past many generations.
I know I am repeating from earlier comments, but each and every OTD person possesses a נשמה that is a חלק אלוק ממעל. That is no less holy and precious before HKB”H than yours, mine, or that of any other Yid, regardless of his/her proficiency in Torah learning, track record of mitzvos, progeny, or belonging to any particular community. The very thought that we possess the authority to discard such a neshomoh is blasphemous. If we demonstrate that we use our mortal and limited judgment to throw away a neshomoh that is cherished and precious to its Creator, we are proclaiming that such judgment over us is okay. Is that a risk anyone wants to take? I would rather be in the place where I do not repel and reject other Yidden, whatever their situation is. Then when I appear before Beis Din Shel Maaloh, I can be judged via מדה כנגד מדה in an accepting way.
We need to see the possibility of losing the child totally as a tragedy, not something we volunteer to do.
MTAB
Your statement is inaccurate. You wrote: :because you could create mamzerim that way, the Torah says the husband has to give the get willingly, otherwise the get isn’t valid and they still are married, ”
That is not true. A get may be given against the will of the woman. It was a תקנת רבינו גרשם to disallow this practice. That does not invalidate the get, which על פי דין תורה is valid. Perhaps he instituted a consequence of cheirem in order to put teeth into this תקנה, since invalidating the get is not possible. Regardless, these is no issue of mamzeirus if a get was given forcibly.
JJ2020:
You wrote: “There is a difference between now allowing behavior in your home and rejecting your children. You may not be able to stop.them from doing it when they leave the house but not in your mikdash miat.”
I join you in wishing to establish proper boundaries in the home. Helivai we could manage this. If a parent can set a boundary, it should certainly be done. No one would want their son in a t-shirt and shorts or a girl dressed inappropriately sitting at the Shabbos table. They do need to be taught decorum and respect for the home. And these kids we are addressing in this discussion actually know better. And it is also fact that we have zero control over our children when they step out the door. No arguments so far. The question is how do we set boundaries? How do children accept the request? Do they see this as a boundary, or a rule intended to challenge them? Is this just another way of telling them that we don’t want them? Is it a provocation that will result only in their digging their heels in deeper? Is this a form of תוכחה that halacha specifically tells us not to do because it is ineffective?
Check out the gemora ערכין דף טז ע”ב. Giving rebuke is a great mitzvah. But the greatest Tana’im recognized that not every situation is amenable to this being done. If it produces a non-positive result, it is a greater problem than had the situation been left alone.
Our מקדש מעט will not be fashioned by the dictating of rules when a child begins acting out. It would have been established by the home representing the most beautiful of values in the time years until now. Maybe the failure of the past is a contributing factor for this child seeking his gratification from outside sources that are inconsistent with the Torah ideals we want. Rules? Is that all we need to?
Rejecting a kid from living in your home is the equivalent of disowning them. It is not terribly meaningful what the intent of the parent is. That language to the child is clear and unmistakable – rejection. And these extreme rejections are so painful that reconciliation is close to impossible. If we are recognizing the sanctity of the parental relationship as a critical element when the child decides to return, then we must admit that this rejection all but makes that impossible.
I have never challenged Torah. But the metziyus must be ascertained so that we know which halachos to apply. The nearly unanimous opinion of Gedolei Yisroel has been made clear. And the authors from KJ have an agenda to challenge that. I will not spend a moment to study them, why they take this approach, etc. We are not dealing with a huge controversy among the Gedolim. They have been clear.
The Chazon Ish ZT”L made a clear statement in his generation, some 60 years ago. He stated that the gemora that describes שמאל דוחה וימין מקרבת is no longer applicable. Today, he said, we must me mekarev with the left as well. The Chazon Ish cannot be accused of modifying halacha to suit his opinions or agendas. He was clearly explaining that the outcome mattered to the application of the halacha. His insight is not only amazing, but it is prophetic. Today’s generation so clearly finds the דוחה approach provocative and rejecting, clearly not the agenda of the Torah. Not because these youngsters are “right”, but because they are seriously impaired.
As far as being “deputized” to fulfill Hashem’s vengeance, I have great trouble accepting this message. There are way too many statements throughout תורה שבכתב and תורה שבעל פה that say otherwise.
mdd1:
We have a fundamental difference. I believe we are understanding the issue completely differently. You believe we are discussing baalei aveiroh. I do not. I believe we are discussing a choleh.
mdd1:
Your problem is that you know nothing about the metziyus of the problem. These are not baalei aveiroh at all. These are people suffering from a dreaded disease. They are reacting with psychiatric symptoms to events and situations that drove them to rebel or escape. They are running away from people like you who consider everything they do an aveiroh. As a choleh, which is how Gedolei Yisroel recognize the problem, they are not responsible. It is then an aveiroh to treat them as chot’im. There is a chiyuv to be mekarev them and help them do teshuvah.
Yes, I know a whole lot about Pinchos and Zimri. Zimri was not a choleh. He was a baal aveiroh. And Pinchos knew that, and had the capacity to recognize it. He was the grandson of Aharon Hacohen who knew more about making shalom than you or I will ever be able to grasp. And Pinchos reached a non-impulsive decision, which even Moshe told him was a הלכה ואין מורים כן, that it cannot be carried out as an instruction but rather by the tacit recognition that this was needed.
Until you understand something about the OTD problem being rooted in an emotional situation, all the rest of your arguments are irrelevant. And the Gedolei Yisroel that all say this have reached their conclusions based on having learned to recognize the experience of these kids. Sure, it is unpleasant to see your own child violating Shabbos, dressing in ways that are grossly different from your mesorah, and acting out in ways that are hair raising. But they are sick, not evil. They are not apikorsim at all.
Now picture the coming of Moshiach, where he will be searching the corners of the world for the Yidden, children of the Avos, to gather together and bring to Eretz Yisroel. And you will volunteer to ride shotgun and throw out some of these precious neshamos, who suffered in their illnesses. Is that what you hope to do? How about those who toil relentlessly to restore the cleanliness of these neshamos, all from the same חלק אלוק ממעל as you, me, the rest of Klal Yisroel? They get first class rides and special schar for working to complete the family of Hashem Yisborach, לבל ידח ממנו נדח.
Lastly, HKB”H never employed you to enforce his halachos. He did give you a mitzvah of הוכח תוכיח, but not to ostracize or punish anyone. Have you ever had a child of yours that was sick ח”ו? Did you toss him/her out with the garbage at curbside, or did you go to the doctor? If the child engaged in behaviors that were upsetting to you, did they get taken back to the hospital for a refund? Are any of your children more or less of your child? That statement of yours is absurd, and has never been acceptable by anyone with a minimum of Torah achievement. Who can you quote that would ever support that ridiculous statement – that an OTD kid is less child to HKB”H? Just one reputable name?
DovidBT:
You wrote: “If someone were transgressing secular laws, e.g. committing murder or robbery, would a tolerant attitude toward them be acceptable? Why should we more lenient with halachic transgressors?”
I cannot believe you think drawing a parallel is logical at all.
Secular laws involved are social ones. They are about public safety. Getting robbers or murderers away from society is critical to the function of society. Getting involved to protect the public is praiseworthy. And halacha supports this as well.
In your label of “halachic transgressors”, we have two separate topics. There are those that בין אדם לחבירו. These are similar to the secular laws. If someone poses risk to another, then there is a reason to be intolerant, and to intervene to protect innocent victims. But there are also those areas that are בין אדם למקום. These do not involve me. HKB”H did not create me to serve as his law enforcement officer. Whether someone has failed to put on tefillin today, or ate without washing or benching, is frankly not my business. Yes, there is ערבות, and there is a mitzvah of הוכח תוכיח. If my intervening will restore an appropriate relationship between and individual and אבינו שבשמים, then there is a good reason to mix in. If not, my mitzvah is to stay out of it. The “halachic transgressor” is as much a child to HKB”H as any of us. I will never have the authority or the moral justification to block HKB”H from His child.
Finally, there is a horrible myth that dominates much of the discussion. It suggests there is a domino effect, where the OTD family member brings others down. This myth is even more emphasized in yeshivos, and is exploited as justification to expel kids all the time. The impact on another child may happen, but it is actually a rare exception. Gedolei Yisroel have been known to take a strong stand on this, and suggest retaining the close proximity and concentration of chinuch efforts on the child who is acting out, even if that means to scatter the other children to live with other family and friends. The Satmar Rov ZT”L once told a Rosh Yeshiva to throw out the other 25 talmidim, and to keep his yeshiva open for the one who was causing trouble. Rav Elyoshiv told a mother to move her other 8 children out of the home to concentrate on the one who was acting out.
The ultimate rejection of kicking a child out of the home is the nail in the spiritual coffin. Yes, I call it retzichoh. No, I did not originate this. Gedolei Yisroel said it.
Stop worrying about “halachic transgressors”. It is not your business. Just leave a path for them to return when they are ready. And if you do want to intervene, get in the business of helping bring HKB”H’s children back to him, not push them farther away. They are not less בנים למקום than you or me.
Rand0m3x:
You asked: “Marijuana doesn’t impair judgment in the way alcohol does
(causing users to drive despite their impaired ability), does it?”Yes it does. Because it is usually not as sedating, the user has the illusion of the greater sense of control. In fact, and research shows this, is impairs reaction time, and it affects perception in a potentially destructive way.
Me12345:
You wrote: “Takes2 that’s a big shaila in halacha if you’re supposed to answer about smoking. ” Can you please tell me where this shailoh is found? I need a single reference (or more) in a reputable sefer that considers this as a question. Smoking, according somewhere around 95% plus of poskim consider this an issur d’Oraysa. Secondly, smoking implies an aspect of self pleasure that easily affects others adversely (in stinking and second hand smoke). Thirdly, there are health risks that significantly increase the possibility of chronic disease and early death. Someone who asks about this is entitled to an honest answer, and I cannot believe that anyone who is considered a posek says that there is a question about this. To me, there is zero shailoh. Who (poskim please) think there is a question?
I am shocked to read an implied “halacha” in several comments. This “halacha” suggests that if saying something truthful is L”H, then one can lie. This is definitely not true. There is no heter to mislead someone into a shidduch by lying. If someone believes the Chofetz Chaim implies this, I need to see this black on white. I do not recall such a thing, and it is certainly inconsistent with known halacha. It may be one matter to withhold information. But to deliberately give false information is quite another.
Smoking tobacco vs. smoking pot – carcinogens
I cannot cite specific references, and I’m not in the research mood today. But I do recall hearing a lecture in college, provided with the actual scientific article that compared these two with specific regards to cancer risk. The carcinogen risk ration between cannabis:tobacco was approximately 400:1. I guess this suggests that a single joint was about 400 times the cancer risk of a single cigarette. If we are going to calculate that an average smoker is consuming a pack a day, which is 20 cigarettes, then the risk factor for weed is still 20:1. That is not small time danger. And with the halachos about the obligation to refrain from danger, this qualifies for an issur. And furthermore, this issur does not need to be a psak halacha from a posek, any different than one needs to ask a shailoh if it is permissible to eat a ham sandwich. As for the sandwich, once one knows it is chazzer, the issur is open in the Torah. Same here.
I just checked a Google search. Try “cancer risk from cannabis”.
It is difficult to compare issurim to determine which is worse. I think enough commenters here recognize the issurim on excessive alcohol, tobacco, and weed. Whenever I discuss any of these topics, I find those who wish to retain their freedom to ingest the substance as the most avid matirim, with some pieces of logic that any toddler would reject. So let’s recap a bit. Cigarettes are lethal to the smoker (and pretty bad for the second hand smoker, too). Smoke does not belong in the lung. Only clean air does. All the dangers of tobacco smoke exist with cannabis smoke, plus lots of others. Tobacco creates physical dependence. Marijuana does not. Actually, NIDA has published evidence of physical dependency to marijuana, but this is definitely not the most common or dominant issue with it. Alcohol affects many organs, including liver, pancreas, stomach, brain, and more. There is brain damage from excessive alcohol. Nothing near that is found with weed.
The medical damage from weed is more insidious. It appears with little to no drama. Rarely does MJ send someone to the emergency room. It becomes hallucinogenic in very high doses. This can occur with anyone, but it is rare that someone bothers to ingest that much. But the damage is more subtle, and one does not see it happening at all, so there is no motivation to abstain. That makes it more of a danger.
MJ – Long term damage to lungs, glands, and brain. Short term memory and reaction time impairment. Makes one stupid.
Alcohol – Intoxication and poisoning, physical dependency, damage to gut, brain, liver, and pancreas, among other organs.
Tobacco – Heart, lungs, and cancer.These are just a sampling of the headlines of dangers associated with these 3 substances. There are also a variety of issurim. My Torah tells me that every לא תעשה is bad.
DY:
This will drag the thread into a different direction, which perhaps should have a thread of its own (if I recall, there have been threads on this), but i challenge what you wrote: “And it should be limited to Purim and perhaps Simchas Torah when it’s a mitzvah/minhag.”
Our Gedolim have spoken openly about the myth of serious intoxication on Purim as being plain old yetzer horah. It is fairly clear from the poskim that the “dead drunk” is not the intent of the mitzvah on Purim. Next, I still await to hear something reputable about drinking on Simchas Torah. I asked around several poskim and dayanim I know, and none was able to find a source for this “mitzvah” or “minhag”. Someone once challenged me on my revulsion to drunkenness on Simchas Torah by claiming that it was unfair to see it as negative. After a painful month of Elul, with the requisite cheshbon hanefesh and teshuvah, there was selichos, then Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, then the Sukkos mitzvos, one needs a break, and the imbibing on Simchas Torah is that chance to let go. This was cast as if it was Toras Hachasidus. I was as disgusted by this perverse thinking as I am by shikruso shel Lot. Maybe on these two Yomim Tovim, there should be a mitzvah to smoke weed? I am sure the Satan will derive much nachas from this, and I am convinced that HKB”H will not accept this as positive anything.
In galus:
The Ari Z”L says quite openly that the galus of Mitzrayim was a galus of daas. The minds of Klal Yisroel were in galus. There are probably multiple ways of understanding this. There was a slave mentality. In your case, your comment, as well as screen name suggest someone who is “out to lunch” or “in galus”. No, I’m not name calling. I am attacking your comment, being completely stupid and not factual.
The precise problem of cannabis is that its mind altering effects lack the drama of the “high” that accompanies many other drugs. The person under the influence of pot believes himself to be perfectly normal, even more aware. That feature is sometimes called denial, perhaps other labels. But in multiple studies, the person under the influence of cannabis cannot maintain scores on so many tests that measure acuity, reaction time, memory, decision making, etc. I am personally acquainted with people who, while still using pot, insisted they could understand a piece of Gemora better than when sober. Yet, if one engages them in some dialogue while under the influence, one discovers that there is no one home. I have tried it. You are failing to sell me the package that pot in any way truly enhances anything. Things that are not humorous at all trigger laughter. Purely mundane things spark interest. Non-musical percussion is experienced as music to enjoy. All absurdities that defy reality. You are totally wrong about shteiging on pot.