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What is the Yiddishkeit to which you want them to return? If it resembles what they ran from, you won’t get anywhere.
Sadly, much of today’s Yiddishkeit is devoid of true spiritual connection to a alarming degree. We are far too busy with external trappings, the glamour and glitz, the photos and publicity, the size of weddings and other events. The individual connection to Hashem was never determined by a grade on a test/bechina, and one’s choice of work versus learning tells you nothing about their commitment to Torah and its values.
OTD kids are escaping a life in which they felt rejected. It is rarely an intellectual challenge. They cannot tolerate remaining in a world where boundaries are perceived as constraints, where any deviation from an arbitrary norm is labeled as defective, and where one is cookie cut into a pattern that is incongruous with ones set of strengths and weaknesses. Success and failure is judged by external criteria, and is a flagrant violation of חנוך לנער על פי דרכו.
The attributions of OTD issues to internet are not laughable, they are pitifully wrong. I know a huge number of OTD kids, and have never, ever met one who “went off” because of internet. They went to that address after they “left” because they would not be rejected, and could at least entertain themselves.
Until we make Torah and Mitzvos something that our kids enjoy and value, we will continue to watch youth seek solace and acceptance everywhere else. And as long as we fail miserably in doing that with everyone, we will definitely get nowhere trying to entice an OTD kid to reconsider Yiddishkeit.
Joseph:
A little intellect, please.
A problem exists when it is observed, not put together by a pile of words on a page. I live within a chassidic community, and associate with chassidim of various groups, locally and elsewhere. As with any community, there will be individuals with a variety of problems, some involving mental health, medical, OTD, shalom bayis, shidduchim, machlokes, and many more. We are not addressing individual problems that require specific solutions. The insinuation was that there is something at the tzibbur level, and that this needs to be understood and addressed. I have not had any reason to believe that there is anything at all relevant to a community, not formal scientific study, nor even any accumulation of anecdotal information. So before I entertain the hypothesis that there is a problem to examine, first show me something convincing that there is an issue to study. I do not set a standard of scientific study. But just something.
This reminds me of an old witticism about a Brisker talmid that asked a serious question about a Rambam? His chavrusah pointed out to him that the Rambam actually does not say what was being used to create the question. His retort was, “That’s no way to say a teretz on a shverrer Rambam”. It is ridiculous to fabricate a problem, and then challenge those who cannot find reason to justify it because of the serious implications.
Let’s try this in really simple words. There is no such shidduch crisis in the chasidisshe community. Case closed. Now, המוציא מחבירו עליו הראיה.
Joseph:
We know there is a problem with the child abuse issue. That has been demonstrated in accumulated anecdotal data, and there is even more formal data from surveys among mental health professionals. It may not be enough to give reliable statistics of exactly how prevalent it is. I strongly believe the pronouncement by the “activists” that it is dangerous for a Jewish child to attend yeshiva is baseless, and even destructive. No, I don’t get impressed with the media coverage of the incidents that do get reported. So it is important to give the issue its day, because there are system issues at play that must be fixed. If a rebbe bullies my kid, that may be an individual issue for me, but it places the entire class at risk, and needs to be solved at the system level.
You effort to compare the real to the fabrication is not accepted.
Joseph:
There isn’t even anecdotal data from normal observers that there is a problem. You’re getting ridiculous. Frankly, carrying on a conversation with a toddler is more productive than this back and forth here.
I don’t expect scientific data. There isn’t a valid hypothesis to launch any such project. Let’s start with a research model. You ask a question, and provide some background (literature, previous studies, etc.) to support the position. You then create the design to obtain the data to either prove or disprove the hypothesis. Nothing acceptable has happened for step one. I can create many scenarios that might have their place in fiction novels. Just what do you think sci-fi is?
Joseph:
Before trying to understand or address a problem, we must first ascertain there is one. To dream one up, then open a thread in the CR, and create a castle in the sky, is an exercise in fiction creation. As in a library, it has its location, and may even have its popularity. But that doesn’t create a reality.
Maybe this ounce of metaphor helps explain what I commented earlier.
These generalizations only feed idle chatter. Anyone have a broad enough experience for an impression that has any validity? How about some formal study to determine whether there actually is a problem.
The original post and most of the comments are tragically primitive. First present me with facts, then we will have a discussion.
laskern:
מאבד עצמו לדעת is a halacha that has many poskim who consider it academic only. The reason they give is that the depression involved in choosing suicide is a חולי that disqualifies it from being considered suicide according to the halacha. In practice, the true מאבד עצמו לדעת is buried away from others in a Jewish cemetery, which is less honorable. This has been done extremely few times in America in the past many years. I have first hand knowledge of a case that was treated so, and the ones behind it were desperate to protect the true murderer.
Joseph:
No one should need to hear or read a lecture on how different today’s world is from the earlier generations. But since you ask, something must be presented.
The existence of yeshivos is a comparatively new phenomenon. The existence of selectivity for admission is also rather new. Expelling talmidim was hardly known before the present era. And chinuch was not a backdoor job for someone unable to find gainful employment elsewhere.
Besides for these and many more differences, the world was also a different place. In the lifestyles among Shomrei Mitzvos, there was a palatable emunoh, in which HKB”H was part of the home. Yiddishkeit was not a competitive sport (frummer than thou), chitzoniyus was not a status symbol, and the true goals of the averge Yid was to be the best nachas ruach to Hashem. Children were imbued from birth with a sense of Yir’as Hashem and Ahavas Hashem. It is sad and tragic, but we can no longer say this for today’s world. There is louder volume of Kol Torah than ever before. We have taken kashrus to extremes unknown to our ancestors, and chumros that were once almost extinct have been revived to become commonplace. There is a thriving marketplace for segulos. There are daily albums of photos of luminaries meeting, performing various mitzvos and rituals, and a plethora of frum media. But the core values of Ahavas Hashem and Yir’as Hashem are harder to find. The pashtus that energized Klal Yisroel is gone, and the emunoh pshutoh that formed the unbreakable chain is deeply hidden. When a melamed taught children, there was an electricity in the air, and kids (yes, kids) wanted to learn and excel. There was a melamed or rebbe who invested his effort in this small group of talmidim, and individual connection was a priceless ingredient in this process.
In today’s home, we need to examine what we teach. We need to buy only certain products in certain stores because of what the neighbors or the yeshivos might say. We need to dress up in ways that are foreign to our respective families, because of the dress codes yeshivos dictate for parents. We can go on and on, and it would be a great lecture if given by the right speaker.
Today’s children are being raised differently. The rebbe of a century ago would be unable to handle this, nor would they the high ration of talmidim per rebbe.
Pence seems okay, but I have yet to see something original from him. Another Trump echo might not be bad, especially that he doesn’t suffer from compulsive tweeting. But Haley would be a breath of fresh air to the country. Ryan is also pretty good, though doesn’t appear to be the great leader. Gowdy has the guts to side with moral high ground consistently, something that is returning to Washington since we voted Democrats out. So, I rebel against the OP. I would want to see a ticket of Haley and Gowdy.
As critical as I am, the availability of training in chinuch has progressed greatly. Merkaz has existed for a really long time. Torah Umesorah has their summer institutes, plus the additional trainings done with their annual convention. TU also conducts other workshops and continuing education events during the year. In Brooklyn, there are a few programs, catering to the Yiddish speaking community. The picture is far less bleak than it once was.
Yes, but. With all the available training, what percentage of the population of rebbeim and teachers have this background? Are there any schools or yeshivos that make this training a mandatory requirement for eligibility to serve in that capacity? No car service would hire a driver who is not licensed. Chinuch is a profession, much should go into it, and this background should be required. It should then deserve appropriate compensation.
Aside from programs to train, we have a wealth of resource by way of seforim on the subject that derive their material from purely Torah sources (not that the secular education world has nothing to teach a teacher). Are any of these seforim required study for the rebbe or teacher entering the field? Should the role of the rebbe, who serves as a link in the chain of mesoras haTorah from Har Sinai be guided by the Gedolei Hador of the many generations that preceded us? Sadly, way too many in the field barely know of the existence of these seforim, and are arrogantly obsessed with their “great knowledge” to hear that there is another approach that just might be more Torah based. Visit your favorite seforim store and discover the treasures there.
DY:
Your comment sounds really nice and caring, but the assumptions are often untrue. There are many mechanchim who are worth their weight in gold, providing excellent service, benefiting our children so greatly, and are seriously and unfairly underpaid. There are also way too many who should not be in the field altogether. Their talents and gifts of skills lie elsewhere, and they pursue chinuch because it does “pas” to do anything else. That is sinful, and actually punishes the children with an incompetent rebbe/teacher, drains the yeshiva budget by directing wages to the undeserving, and possibly hurts the reputation of the yeshiva by providing inferior services. These incompetents are not the kids’ key to Olam Haboh. Quite contrary, they are potential contributors to the children finding the Torah world an uncomfortable, even painful place.
Chinuch is a profession. It involves a set of skills, and should be treated as any profession, preceded by training, the achievement of proficiency, and some form of documentation to be eligible to work in this field. There should also be continued education to expand and improve one’s skills. This has begin to happen, but sadly has not yet become the norm. For those who do their jobs well, they deserve a huge salary plus lots more.
GH:
Correct. A school should not be a gemach. Ideally, other organizations should serve the role of assisting parents with tuition costs. Trouble is, that is a fantasy. There are no such organizations. So it won’t happen. If these hundreds or even thousands of kids end up in the street, a generation is lost, and the community would need to tackle a huge crisis. So that’s not the answer either.
These same yeshivos conduct countless fund raising campaigns. They train the students to collect tzedokoh at various times of the year (debatable whether this is good or bad chinuch), and they have various events including dinners, chinese auctions, mailings, and other events. This should spread the financial burden away from tuition. But sadly, this does not happen.
TM:
You have a valid point. The clocked hours often do not reflect the amount of time invested in the job. Yeshivos know that,, and compensation is calculated that way (though it is still usually way too low). But there is a painful reality. There is a huge (though shrinking) percentage of melamdim, rebbes, teachers, etc. who lack training, and are utter failures at doing the job well. They may have a greater knowledge fund than their students, but that is nowhere close to the top of the list of qualities and skills needed to teach a class. We have large classes, and classroom management is a mammoth task. The time that gets invested in discipline, enforcing rules, etc., is destroying education time. Truly trained faculty make lesson plans that captivate the students who want to attend, participate, and absorb the material. Kids are not so “bad behaved”. Teachers are just unable to manage them because they don’t know how. Kollel for a decade has never prepared anyone for a classroom, though it may have enhanced one’s Torah knowledge.
Being a rebbe requires individual attention to every single talmid, including connecting with the parents. Nachas calls are not a staple, though discipline calls are frequent. Watch what happens when a kid discovers the rebbe extending a caring hand. Presto, the “bad behavior” vanishes. I’m not preaching here. I just would like to see our mechanchim and parents more aware of what chinuch is. I promise you one thing. It is not synonymous with discipline.
Yosef768:
You are using the wrong yardstick. You are looking to establish a fair tuition based on your income. Well, I got news for you. What you are suggesting is like measuring your floor dimensions with a scale. the establishment of tuition is based on the projected school budget. The faculty in the highly populated areas like NY tend to be underpaid, and the administration well compensated. The costs of buildings, rent, etc. in these locales is also quite high. The expected tuition is intended to offset the expenses.
I am no great admirer of yeshiva administrations. But if you expect them to offer you free or almost free schooling because of your financial straits, wake up and smell the coffee. In fact, the parents who lose their income mid-year due to job loss are apt to have trouble from the school. After all, your job loss is not their fault. Some yeshivos are quite rigid with disallowing students to enter the premises with outstanding tuition bills. This varies greatly, but I have personal knowledge of this being done. It is not a rare exception.
Having disparaged the school administrations, recognize that schooling costs, and that you, as the consumer, should be shouldering part of that cost. Sometimes, schools have asked for parents to contribute time to helping out, sort of bartering. They may not always be fair, but they have a right to expect something.
I think there is a point missing here. For many, the work we do is more than just parnosoh. It is also providing goods and services to others. If I am a doctor, my receipts from patients and insurance companies constitutes parnosoh. But the healing services I do are benefiting others. Do I have the right to limit that and deprive others of the needed medical care?
Perhaps those who have the skills and talents have that obligation to the Klal. They are entitled to bill for their goods and services. If they get rich by doing so, kal hakavod to them.
No, I am not a doctor. This was just an example.
Yes.
Yet, the Torah includes words of Aramaic, and the Chazal state that Odom Harishon spoke Aramaic. One may note that there are several “unclean” words that do not exist within Lashon Hakodesh. The seforim address this.
If our only concern with being mechanech children is to insure they are compliant, then whatever forms of lecture, reward/punishment, etc. may work. However, I shudder when I hear discussion in this vein, because ultimately, tefilah needs to be seen as a privilege, and an opportunity to create and enhance the connection that every Yid has with HKB”H. Allowing it to be a chore, even with full compliance, won’t accomplish that.
We are addressing tefilah as a value, not an action. The best, and probably only successful successful, way to achieve this is by appropriate models. That means us.
Do we portray the yearning to daven?
Do we make it our business to be in shul on time?
Do we abstain from talking and other distractions during davening?
Do we ever show our children that their tefilos are holy and effective?
Do we make frequent reference to the role of tefilah in dealing with the challenges of life?
Do we expose our children to the emotional side of tefilah?We should eachthink how these questions should be best answered, and then look to implement these in our lives. Then, watch the kids responses.
everyyidisspecial
I get your point. However, I suggest you examine a bit of history. The vocabulary changes over time, with words added to describe new things, but mostly meanings of words change. Part of this is fueled by the voice of the street.
When I was a kid, we spoke about Negroes. The word was not slang, and it was not used in a derogatory manner. Then things changed to where that word was given negative meaning, and one needed to call them Blacks. That evolved into African-Americans. We now have People of Color. I do not quite care what the accepted term is for today, because it will change in a short time. And words spoken with zero intent on degrading anyone will be interpreted as offensive and criminal. Now, that’s pretty crazy.
I recall use of the word reta—. The political correctness movement brought vocabulary changes, and this word is now given a negative connotation. Why? I don’t know. For clinicians, it’s not specific enough. But it’s jargon. Who cares?
ylevy613:
That is not correct. Many of the Chassidim prepare the “ayer mit zviebel” at the table, as the rebbes did it. True, there are those that don’t, but many do. It is not a minhag for just the Zanzer aineklech.
jackk:
1. Wrong. His text messages say clearly that he wants to stop him.
2. Trump does not want a trade war any more than you or me. The current lopsided status is not sustainable. These countries already place tariffs on American products. Why is that OK? Why should America take it on the chin? Trump wants an even playing field. If you have any business sense, you would want that, too. If these foreign countries find that hard for them, they will sit at a negotiating table and make a deal. They refused so far.
3. Volunteer to facilitate aliyah for American Jews. Don’t just make snide comments.
4. Perhaps privatization is the way to go. Obviously, no White House or Congress considers this idea viable, and never did in the past administrations. Meanwhile, you cannot dictate what is in the public interest. I would be open to all suggestions. But I doubt you have all the relevant issues in your knowledge base to make a decision on this, or even to have an educated opinion. Meanwhile, the Amazon USPS deal is running in the red, and does so daily. What would you put in place before you dismantle USPS?
There is a sefer אוצר החיים that was published in E”Y by R’ Yosef Scheinberg who was a well known mohel in Yerushalayim. It is a collection of minhagim from Zanz. It is on Hebrewbooks.org, an dthis is the link: http://www.hebrewbooks.org/20741
It needs to be kept in mind that the Divrei Chaim was not consistent with many minhagim, sometimes doing this, other times differently. He certainly had his cheshbonos, and we are not to judge. But many minhagim were not “established”. So these are based on individual reports of what he did, and conflicting reports are more likely both true.
The families who descend from Zanz that uphold many of the minhagim include the chassidus kehilos of Klausenberg, Bobov, Zmigrod, Stropkov. Be aware as well that it is fairly common for rebbes to adopt minhagim that come from other sources, often other ancestors through their wives and other grandmothers. All goes to say that “pure Zanz” hardly exists in terms of minhagim.
My personal suggestion is to recognize the known greatness of the Divrei Chaim, with huge gadlus in Toras Haniglah, Chassidus, & Chesed. I suggest that emulating these would please him more than following his minhagim of specific matters.
Jack:
You deserve a line by line response. Firstly, I note that you repeat yourself , making the list longer. If I don’t accept your statement the first time, chances are that the next 1-2 times won’t help much. But the longer list sure makes your anti-Trump stand look stronger.
1, 14, 23 – lying. Not so sure, and it certainly doesn’t add up to lying about everything.
2, 3 – enriching. This cannot be documented anywhere. The left sells this message via its liars in the media. No evidence has ever been found. Trump himself has disconnected from his businesses, and this was monitored carefully prior to his taking office. Yet, his businesses continue to prosper, without current benefit to him. Same goes for his family.
4, 5, 6, 7 – ethical issues with those he hired. Once again, conjecture, and based on the belief that anything he does must be suspect. Most of his hires have undergone scrutiny by others, including Congressional approval.
8 – free press. You gotta admit, as even they do – the MSM has occupied often up to 80% of their broadcast time to trashing Trump, even ignoring major stories in the news. There is a HUGE amount of falsehood in the MSM. Trump just calls them on it, and NEVER took any action to restrict what these journalists do, even when they spread lies and misrepresentations about him.
9 – distrust of Congress. You are factually inaccurate. Trump did not challenge the hacking and meddling claims. He has denied having any role in that whatsoever, and there has yet to be evidence demonstrated that he did. There is evidence that Russia did not directly influence the election, though they tried. This was reported in your beloved MSM.
10 – destroying institutions of US. You’re kidding. There is demonstrated improper behavior of people at the helm of major government agencies. IRS, the Obama cabinet, the FBI, and the CIA. The evidence of all this has seen sunshine. The electoral system has its issues, and massive pockets of voting fraud have been exposed. Trump never destroyed or tried to destroy anything. There have been problems, still are, and Congress is aware of them, as is available to the public via the WWW.
11, 12 – pardons. You’re kidding. Please supply a quote and source for any such statements. The idea was floated by inquisitive people within the media. No one ever stated they would commit crimes with impunity. That accusation is vicious on your part. You know it’s untrue,but you flaunt it the same way the Fake News MSM does it. Have you no shame?
13 – staff who worked for other countries. You’re getting ridiculous. Every administration had staff that had prior connections to other countries. Such experience can be potentially valuable. Whether this experience becomes a conflict of interest is an issue. Don’t suggest that Obama and Hillary had no such conflicts of interest. They were jam packed loaded with these. Shall I cite Uranium One?
15 – racist and sexist. This is a proven fabrication. This gets repeated often enough by some of the stupidest people, including some Democratic politicians and some of the imbeciles of the MSM. Nothing has ever been documented. But it does sell well. Sorry, but it doesn’t wash.
16 – Muslim ban. Another documented red herring. The countries on the travel ban are all associated with terror. I agree that when we think of terror, the first image that comes to mind is a Muslim. That’s not a Trump fabrication. That’s the hard work of the terror groups, and gets the support of the libtards of the world. Do you want to offer the populations that commit, support, justify, and encourage terror, who have sworn to attack Israel and the United States free entry without proper vetting? If you do, I would sooner see you as an enemy of Israel and US than a friend.
17 – trade wars. Partially valid issue. I am not in the business world, and I do not have any deep understanding of world economics. I bet that trade wars are not good for anyone. But the current lopsided status, with American goods subject to tariffs without anything similar existing in the other direction just sounds unfair. If someone offers to negotiate with you and you refuse, can you blame him for taking a hard stand against you? You asked for it. More often than not, US has a good chance of winning the trade war, and the other countries are likely to back down and bargain in good faith. I understand Trump’s stand, as far as my limited grasp of economics permits.
18 – health care. I would agree. But who will pay for these pre-existing conditions? You, me? This is not the only problem with health care. The costs of health care are inflated greatly by the desperate need for tort reform, and no one with a background in law will tolerate this. I think only one state placed a cap on awards, and health care costs went down drastically. 49 to go. Would you support that, or do you just want to gripe about the push to eliminate the albatross called Obamacare?
19 – birthing. Do you really care at this point? There was so much shrouded history and documentation that the suspicion that something was being hidden is justified. The real problem with Obama was that he was an enemy of democracy, the Constitution, and he wanted desperately to push socialism and Islam down the throats of America. I might believe what I want about his legal status, but it is overshadowed by my disdain for him.
20 – insults. Good point. Anyone want to address Obama’s insults to Netanyahu? Trump is quite free with saying insulting and insensitive things. Most have learned to not take those comments seriously. As of yet, they are foolish and babyish, but harmless.
21 – revenge. Please explain. I can’t guess what you mean. In the business world, that’s how competition works.
22 – financially destroying. Are you for real? There are times when companies exert their market power in a manner that becomes destructive to the public. Amazon has huge discounts for delivering Amazon merchandise. It comes at a substantial deficit for the USPS, and contributes handsomely to the USPS running in the red. That system is bankrupting a government agency, and needs to be revamped. Trump is correct. I am a beneficiary of the current system, but it is unfair to all. It has nothing to do with political views. It is dollars and sense.
24 – aid to PR. Read the rest of the story. The systems in place to distribute monies effectively are failing. Just giving them a blank check will not work. There is structure needed so that the people of PR benefit, and the current work is about creating that.
25 – police violence. I won’t debate the cause, though I solemnly disagree with the premise. But even so, there are ways to deal with it. The anthem kneeling thing is nothing but a disgrace. It accomplishes nothing. It creates a narrative that is false, and justifies the pattern of protest and violence that has characterized the left. Trump loves America, and is sincerely trying to make it great again. The left doesn’t want that, and opposes everything just because it comes from Trump. That’s shameful. What, pray tell, does the left propose to make America great again? Anything?
26 – unpatriotic opposition. Another myth promoted by the MSM, the anti-American politicians, and the left. I ask you to please document this suggestion of yours.
27 – stroking his ego. You’re getting stupid. He has an ego, strokes it all the time, especially in his persistent tweeting. The money spent on the parade was supposed to go for another event, which he cancelled and diverted to this. He ended up saving a ton of money.
You have the burden of proof.
Avram:
As a moderate, I reject the extreme. The reason that Liberalism has become a Disease is because it is limitless in its scope. One might entertain a concept of gender identity as something other than a form of psychopathology. But it has wandered far beyond the limits of morality or logic, and has thus become a goal of its own. At last count, I found gender identities listed as some 70+, and anyone who guesses wrong at someone’s momentary self-identification is branded as a guilty perpetrator of discrimination.
I can entertain positions that differ with the current Trump administration. When every single action and word is taken as a cause for a “justified” protest full of hate, violence, and threats, we are dealing with a different situation.
The labeling of anything Trump does as evil is an extreme position, and this is detestable. In fact, his immigration policies were actually stated openly by Bill Clinton, Obama, and numerous Democrat politicians in Congress. But now that Trump says it, it is evil. That kind of extremism is no longer logical, and is driven by passionate hate. As a moderate, I cannot tolerate this form of disagreement. Sadly, the Democratic Party has stooped to this level of self-degradation. I try in vain to hear something that approaches rational thinking. I cannot find it in the words of any of our politicians. I guess politics corrupts.
ZD:
You missed my point. DDMD is not the question here. If someone has established a pattern of access to his property, may I block it as per halacha? The matter of the legality of the driveway is not the issue. Maybe that person is in violation of halacha by virtue of Dina Demalchusa Dina. But he has been accessing his property, and has a chazakah of doing so for a long period of time. May I block him?
Some comments here address aspects of the legality, but the OP asks about a driveway that is illegal. The question posed was about the halacha side of this. I’m not sure that the halachos relevant to the access to traffic (I think the term for this is easement) are equivalent to the secular law. If not, the fact that someone has been using this place for access to his property might be enough to have a halacha (as in hilchos shechainim) to prohibit blocking it. Any halacha experts here wish to weigh in?
Reading the comments here, I find so much comedy. In humor, one seeks to spin truth, and the result of yes is no, and vice versa. There is a reality here. While I have strong opinions, I believe I am moderate about certain things, including politics.
In a choice between Trump and Hillary, we B”H made a choice that is light years better. Not negotiable.
Trump has proved himself to be irresponsible and loose, using twitter much as a small child, with the temper tantrums, the extremes of emotional expression, and sometimes superficiality. He is no choir boy, and I would not choose him as a role model. His policies, however, are far more rational, even if you disagree. And the results speak for their efficacy. I believe that there is a needed infusion of responsible marketing for the president, and the use of social media to speak his feelings is contraindicated.
I reject the comments about how Trump lied so many times. Many of these, with the MSM documenting the inaccuracies, were later proven to be true. The MSM is far more dishonest than Trump ever was, and their word on anything is automatically suspect. I do not even respect the MSM when they broadcast the weather forecast. Meanwhile, the Democrat agenda has zero to do with leading the country, helping the population, or even the constituencies of the various elected officials, but rather the good ole ATDS (Anti-Trump Derangement Syndrome). When Trump policy separated children, there was an outcry against it. When he wrote an executive order changing that, the same people screamed.
Then the brain dead people take to the microphones, truly comical. Waters asks the public to be violent. Pelosi can’t figure out if she is against President Trump or Bush. And Schumer contradicts himself from one day to the next. Should YWN broadcast articles from these idiots? Why embarrass them further?
I do not see YWN as taking a side here. But this post in the CR is not about addressing YWN policy. It is simply egging on the readers and lurkers here to join in the fracas about pro-Trump or anti. And it is time we stopped the obsession with Trump. It doesn’t help, and it diverts energy that is better used elsewhere. Perhaps some of the anti-Trump people here could look for ways to help so many of the needy recipients of chesed whose situations are repeated multiple times on every page on this website. At least something useful might be accomplished, plus a mitzvah to boot. Yes, I get involved, so I am coming from the point of being a doer.
Winnie:
The data you looked for that you didn’t find is quite difficult to find anywhere. Firstly, the subject here is about molestation, not other forms of abuse. Secondly, one would need a decently representative sample of all victims, and this is just about impossible. The ones who never report and never disclose are every bit as central to the discussion, and these would never have been sampled. The hesitation even in the general population to disclose is massive, and lead many of the researchers to recognize this in the inferences to draw from their research.
Joseph:
You wonder whether the history of being a victim might be a mitigating factor in the prosecution of a perpetrator. Firstly, I would bet that every defense attorney would try this defense. Logic is obvious. It converts the perpetrator into a victim, and that tends to gains clemency from a jury, and judge. It also suggests that the perpetrator acted on a biologically determined urge, not ordinary evil thought. That is also intended as a defense. I am not sure whether this actually works much in court. How often does the rapist push the agenda that the victim asked for the crime to be committed? Can’t speak for past history, but this no longer works at all in today’s courts. Ask around by some lawyer friends.
Shopping:
Actually, it is not correct to say that most abusers were victims. There is no such statistic. What does exist is that there is a preponderance among abusers of a history of victimization. This is a number, quite low, but statistically significant – which means that this is not a spurious, chance finding. If you think there is a finding that places the percentage higher, please share your data. I have studied this matter, and the numbers are not that great.
Shopping:
You are correct. I feel a need to take the point a bit farther. You accurately proved that the statistics do not show that victims become abusers. I am not challenging that for those that do, there could be a cause-effect happening. But I am stating categorically that the numbers of this are so low that it is abusive and worse to encounter a victim and label him/her as a potential abuser. I have seen that happen, and it is catastrophic. It revictimizes the victim, and the truth to support that concept is nowhere to be found.
CTRebbe:
There is a quote in the name of the Ropschitzer Rebbe.
פרום מאכט פיהל רשעות ווייניג מצוות.
The simple rishei taivos of FRUM – Fihl Rishus Veinig Mitzvos. Translated – Much evil, few mitzvos.
WTP:
You wrote: “Studies have shown that many abusers were abused themselves in the past.”
This statistic has some merit, and inferring a causal relationship sounds logical. However, it can be badly misused, and this is highly destructive. I don’t recall the percentages cited in the studies, but they are not huge or anywhere approaching majority. I have heard people suggest that an abuse victim needs to be viewed as a potential perpetrator. I can hardly think of something more cruel and murderous, aside from shooting someone at point blank range. The overwhelming majority of victims never, ever become perpetrators. To criminalize a victim as a perpetrator is as abusive as a molester, perhaps more. The statistic must be understood in its true context. It may help us understand the mentality of the abuser, and might be considered a needed element of the therapy that he may undergo. But it is NOT meaningful or true to view abuse as a trigger for a continuing cycle, that the victim will convert into a perpetrator. It is untrue, statistically unfounded, and murderous when used this way.
Title here is a big problem. It is a parody of the Snow White fairy tale, in which the magic mirror would respond to the question, “Mirror, Mirror, on the wall, who is the fairest one of all?” Forgetting about the magical thinking stuff that energizes fairy tales, but mirrors do reflect one’s appearance, and can thus “have an opinion” about who is the fairest of all. But “frum” has zero to do with appearance. The latter matter is an obsession that is common in our generation, where someone’s Jewishness is determined by a boy wearing a white (not colored) shirt, and other similar stupidities. The focus on appearance completely ignores the need for someone to connect emotionally and mentally with HKB”H, and uses judgment of these nonsensical trivia to judge people. And this risks leaving kids in the street without yeshivos and schools, not giving aliyos to mispallelim, and other forms of rejection that are clearly anti-Torah. We are all בנים למקום. We would not throw our own children away. We would fight tooth and nail if someone grabbed any of our children to discard. But we somehow have clear consciences about using meaningless and irrelevant criteria to reject HKB”H’s children. We have a huge problem, and I suspect that our golus requires us to fix this if we want to merit a geula.
So if your mirror could speak, and it spoke of frummer, break it.
There are dozens of biographical publications about the Litvishe gedolim. The stories about them are no less inspiring than of Chassidishe, Sefardishe, or other gedolim. Is this about wanting a specific title that refers to “misnagdim”, a rather derogatory, oppositional label?
Please define chilul Hashem. How it gets defined will help in this discussion.
Catch:
You raised a critical point for the discussion. The statistics do not protect the victim, however occasional or uncommon it may be. And statistics also do not dictate the measures of protection that the public needs.
What statistics do speak to is the development of public policy. Having stated that, let’s examine the subject matter a bit closer. The point is that the volume of abuse that occurs within the home is far from insignificant, and that there needs to be some attention to this. A bunch of years ago, when the molestation topic made it into the media, there was a flurry of attention and focus on yeshivos and camps. Not only was there public outrage, but it went in several directions. There were those who made rash, impulsive, and irrational pronouncements about our yeshivos being danger zones. Others were similarly branding all mechanchim etc. as potential criminals. There was opposing outrage about the baseless generalizations and the indicting of innocent people, plus the damage to yeshivos and camps. When the Torah establishment did not react with extremes to this, the anger toward the Gedolim, the Agudah, etc. was extreme. The advocates and fanatics were deaf to the messages from virtually all who were in the know, that the overwhelming majority of abuse occurs within the home. I applaud Amudim for doing all they do, being level headed, doing genuine advocating on behalf of victims. They also put their money where their mouth is.
Perpetrators tend to look to the closest place to act out, and home is the most accessible. Amudim calls attention to child’s play that can progress to more serious stuff. They are correct.
Pardon my ignorance. Does YWN use Google ads? I was under the impression that YWN does not carry such advertising at all.
There are other sites that do, and try their best to make sure that those with objectionable material do not appear. Yet, this effort is never perfect, and there can be occasional ads that are inappropriate. When that happens to a frum site, just inform the webmaster, and you will find they are glad to help and remove it.
Avram:
You wrote: “False dilemma. Who says that comprehensive immigration reform has to impact support for poor urban and rural American communities? And what are opponents of immigration reform proposing to do to help these communities?”
Wrong. You missed the point. There are several problems that we have due to the open borders. One is the MS-13 and other criminals who not only enter leisurely, but are able to get every version of support. The second is the sheer cost of managing all the immigrant issues. When the limited amount of money is diverted and prioritized to deal with them, we become unable to utilize resources to cope with our own citizens who are homeless, in poverty, and living in the inner city, etc. Until be turn into a surplus budget, we should take care of our own before the others.
You are others have forgotten that there are legal means to enter the US. Who told them (besides the Democrats who are anti-American) to smuggle into the country? If they want to do things illegally, they lack the right to demand compliance with the law.
It’s a true bizayon that no one here has heard the statement drom DHS on exactly which families are being separated. No, it is not being used as a measure to make immigration tough on Latinos. It’s not separating the children, taking them away from their parents, as pawns in the immigration battle. It is the parents who are problematic, with criminal records, etc. who would be detained anyway. Do you know anyone who was incarcerated in US who was able to bring their children along to prison? The kids are innocents who deserve to be fed. No, the media pictures of cages are not the places where kids are being held. They are the makeshift processing centers. The kids are placed in a facility that is more similar to a vacation resort, getting better care than they ever had in their lives. It is pure propaganda to spread the false pictures that are circulating the media, and has infiltrated the pages of the CR.
First examine the facts, then comment about whether there is congruence with Torah value.
RebYidd23:
You wrote: “Who says the victims are 100% innocent?”
Who cares? Since when are we prosecuting the corpse? If the murders were committed in self-defense, that’s one thing. But who are we to “cross-examine” the corpse?
Firstly, this is not a psak. The halacha about arkaos has been existence since time immemorial. This document is not saying anything new.
Secondly, this is just a public proclamation that notes that it has become all too common for disputes to be taken to courts when the first stop needs to be a beis din. This became necessary because the batei din have been far more ineffective than they should be. In many cases, the expected results from a court will be more favorable to one side. These types of situations raise the likelihood that batei din will be bypassed. Whether there is merit to these beliefs or not, halacha does not provide the dispensation to go to arkaos. Only batei din have the option of referring the case.
Lastly, the title of the thread – reporting, suggests the document is about mesira. It is not. It is about arkaos. They are not the same, and should not be confused. The most recent attention to “reporting” within the frum community concerns child abuse, and batei din and the majority of rabbonim have recognized that their resources offer nothing that protects children. There have been similar documents in which rabbonim specifically instruct to report such cases directly. I am not taking a position on this. But it should be clear that arkaos and mesira are different matters, and one is addressed here, the other not.
Time:
In case you don’t know, there are many uses for a smartphone, which are completely kosher. Many of these are critical for business, and many other benefits exist, as well. Before “banning” anything, one must be certain that no one is throwing out the baby with the bathwater. I am not advocating that anyone have such a phone. And one without a filter carries greater dangers. I know that quite well. So let’s address the examples you provided.
Drugs – I support keeping illegal drugs illegal. There are many, now quite popular on the street, that are legitimately manufactured medications. These have critical medical uses, but also carry abuse potential. The other non-pharmaceutical drugs have no business being used, and possession and dealing in them should be a crime.
Biological weapons – I claim zero expertise in warfare. As I understand, these agents cannot be used, as per international agreements. If so, there is no reason not to ban them. They have no legitimate use. If you find a reason to use them appropriately, you should need to document that.
The ban of 1956 – I suspect you are referring to the ban in several cities against rock and roll music. Again, there is a judgment call about the dangers outweighing the benefits. It did not succeed because there was no support for it. We can hold a debate to retrospect about the advantage or disadvantage of such a ban. But that was the process, and it needs to be used for smartphones.
Syrian ban on Geirus – This was a rabbinic decision. It did not nullify geirus. It just involved the community not engaging in it, or supporting it. No Syrian could justify making a Ger Tzedek be mechalel Shabbos because of גוי ששבת חייב מיתה. The feeling (I have heard this from Syrian rabbonim) is that there are too many variables in the process that they were never sure it would be completely reliable. So they chose to avoid it. Yes, geirus is considered a blemish in that community. Once again, the benefits and risks were balanced out, and led to their decision. It is not exactly a ban, but I see your perception of similarity.
yitzchokm:
Come on. No one here is portraying anyone as vicious killers. Several of us are simply reporting known medical science about the dangers of smoking and second hand smoke. You may Google that information. It is not secret. There are also several well referenced NIH publications on the subject, and these are not political, just scientific. No one needs to tone down anything. Halacha demands that we take matters of danger even more stringently than matters of halacha. You keep quoting Reb Moshe as saying there is no issur, and it has been demonstrated that this is erroneous. You are then confronted about the matter of smoking being offensive to others, and all you can do is tell us all that you haven’t a care for anyone’s health or ability to breathe normal air, and would exercise your “right” to smoke in our presence. Your attitude on that stinks, and it needs to be toned down.
You might refer to the sefer I repeatedly quoted and referenced חיים ללא עישון where several of the poskim address the offensiveness, and attach that as an additional issur. Mostly, you are dictating to us all that you can do whatever you want, rewrite halacha if it suits you, and exercise a “right” that secular law has not taken from you. Midos, and the ways of Torah seem to have zero bearing to you. We should tone down? Maybe you should look up the references several of the commenters here shared, and then tell us if you wish to be a בר פלוגתא going up against the vast list of recent and contemporary poskim who gave their piskei halacha that you don’t prefer. Once you are coming from a position of having studied the subject, you should be able to approach the subject with logic and rational thinking. Sorry, but your stand of “I can do whatever I want” is babyish. And that is overly kind.
yitzchokm:
Have you no shame? How can you defend the chutzpah attitude of not caring about the inconveniencing others for your own pleasure? Do you somehow believe that the character trait you advocate is consistent with Torah value? Is it consistent with the hallmark traits of a Yid? Or maybe – to be דן לכף זכות, you are simply making it your business to lead the march of חוצפה יסגי so that we can we can all merit the coming of Moshiach?
It is not about yelling obscenities either. It is about decency. It is about avoiding things that offend others. Yes, I wholeheartedly believe that smoking is an issur d’Oraysa, and I have quoted the myriad of poskim who said that. You are busy with pilpul that removes the word assur, in defiance of clear pronouncements of so many gedolim, and on that basis claim the right to be offensive. Go ahead, make your pilpul, consider your behavior acceptable according to halacha, but do not impose it on everyone else. That is undoubtedly disgusting.
There is a quote in the name of various gedolim – there is one mitzvah in invisible ink that precedes all others. While not seen in black on white, it is a prerequisite for all of Torah. It says, “Be a mentch”.
The disrespect you proudly display here is good enough reason to ignore your comments. They are not coming from rational thinking nor from a position of true Torah life.
UB:
Is there a rational way you can make your comment?
As of today, the most reliable go-to person on psokim from Reb Moshe ZT”L is Reb Dovid shlit”a. He does not need to “change a psak”, just to provide us with the Daas Torah of his father – rebbe muvhak. No, he is not a kofer, or any other nasty name you want to dump on him. I would oppose any effort to be mevazeh a Talmid Chochom like him. You should be ashamed of anyone who would do that. We chapp the gadlus of Reb Moshe as well as the gadlus of Reb Dovid.
Reb Moshe did not ever pasken a heter for smoking. If you reread his teshuvah, he stated clearly that no one should start smoking. Pretty much, anyone this post addresses is not old enough to have continued smoking which began before 1962. So stop the foolishness.
This discussion is amusing. No, halacha doesn’t change. Torah is not subject to anyone’s editing, neither by addition nor deletion. This issue is why we have so much disdain for the non-orthodox “movements” that pick and choose and trim to suit their desires. Chas veshalom to remove anything from the Torah. It’s ours to follow, not to rewrite. There is plenty pilpul to write about יש כח ביד חכמים לעקור דבר מן התורה. It’s not simple, and dismissing halacha is not being done.
To modify halacha to accommodate western sensibilities is foolish. But there are situations when one is not modifying halacha at all, just making applications that differ from other regions or other times. Halacha never changed. Circumstances did. One can Google to search for governmental statutes that are still on the books, but have zero relevance today. I recall one that prohibited bathing a horse in a bathtub. These fall dormant when the situations change.
Rabbenu Gershom never changed halacha. He, as leader of the Ashkenazic communities (which is why Sefardim were not subject to his jurisdiction), created a degree, a gezairoh. It was accepted as normative practice. Had he modified halacha, we would have seen the akin to making bigamy the equivalent to the issur of aishes ish.
The chinuch discipline issue involves several factors. Today’s kids will be damaged if potched. Today’s rebbe who delivers petch is likely expressing his anger and rage, not teaching a lesson. That is why there is unanimous agreement among all the master Baalei Chinuch, as if found in their seforim, that this should not be done. How often is a child publicly shamed by his rebbe? Way too often. And this is tantamount to murder (I can cite you references from rishonim for that). Discipline needs to be as educational as the academic program. If it only punishes, someone is in the wrong career. A rebbe is not there to CONTROL. He is there to TEACH. What is this potching rebbe doing?
Lastly, potching was NEVER a mitzvah or recommendation. Saying so is changing halacha, which is a no-no. It is a last resort, and must be light and infrequent. I can line up many cases of petch that became a central issue in kids turning rebellious. Can you line up cases where they produced an educational experience and led to kids doing better, growing in Avodas Hashem?
RBS:
You created a new halacha, that ונשמרתם involves only immediate threat to life. Either recognize this as a חידוש and take credit (and responsibility) for that, or provide a reference and citation for this. I do not believe this opinion at all, and would be shocked to hear this in the name of any posek, present or past. Shock me please.
In earlier comments, I referenced the sefer חיים ללא עישון. The poskim quoted in that sefer refer to ונשמרתם all the time, and there is not a single instance of this being an immediate threat. Do yourself a favor. Review what these Gedolei Yisroel say, and form your opinions once you have received their guidance.
Yitzchokm:
I reject your psak halacha 100%. Do yourself a favor. Visit a seforim store (perhaps search for this online if stores no longer have it), and purchase a small sefer called חיים ללא עישון. read through the haskamos to the sefer, and then learn the rest cover to cover. It is not a long sefer, and it will not bankrupt you for time. After you have completed it, seeing what all the poskim from today’s generation, plus those of the last two, you can return here and tell us why your opinion matters.
frumnotyeshivish:
You claim that cigarettes have gotten safer. That is absolutely not true. Research shows that the nicotine levels have increased almost two fold since the manufacturers began making them. The “light” cigarettes actually have been found to be more dangerous, since smokers indulge to satisfy their physical dependency, and simply inhale deeper and hold the smoke longer than regular cigs. The result in highly increased exposure to the many carcinogens, hence greater risk.
So please share the science that indicates increased safety if cigarettes today. Unless you were just being sarcastic (דן לכף זכות). It is definitely not factually accurate.
RebYidd:
The questions involved should be spelled out.
1 – It places others who inhale second hand smoke to risk.
2 – It inconveniences others because it is disgusting.Now let’s see comments.
jewboy2:
You are getting ridiculous. I know someone who talked in shul while holding an open siddur in front of him. Let’s ban siddurim! The ideas on nonsense are endless. Only truth has uniqueness. No one believes that smartphones do not present nisyonos. But a properly filtered phone is not an issur, and you have no right to declare it so. If someone gets “addicted” to it, the phone is not the problem, the person’s pattern of use is.
Do you know any alcoholics? Should we ban wine and other alcoholic beverages because some people misuse it? get real. Try to think, instead of shooting out your blanket pronouncements.
jewboy2:
Your teacher’s mom managed to quit before she died. What a wasted effort. She could have held on a drop longer, and quit via her death.