The little I know

username:

Interesting tshuvah. However, I suggest, as we have heard from Gedolei Yisroel of recent generations, some of whom have been quoted earlier, that the case today is completely different. The risk of bittul Torah is something one can take, as per Rav Baumel. We should have no trouble recognizing, as the Chazon Ish did, that the risk today is pikuach nefesh. It nearly seals the future of that talmid to leave shmiras mitzvos altogether, and who can guess the longer term effects on future generations. The Lubavitcher Rebbe ZT”L (I believe it was the Rasha”b) had a talmid that committed something that warranted severe consequences. The Rebbe himself called in the bochur and informed him that he needed to expel him from the yeshiva. The talmid accepted the consequence, but then asked the Rebbe, “If I am thrown out, ok. But what will be of the future generations?” The Rebbe embraced him and took him back into the yeshiva. Today’s consequences are far more serious than being oveir gezel. I would hope that people don’t just jump on the bandwagon of a tshuvah like this and claim we can discard talmidim who are annoying. Do we do that to our children who wake us during the night?

Milhouse:

Before there was a chinuch system as we know it today, with yeshivos, etc., parents hired a melamed to learn with their child. These מלמדי דרדקי were traditionally paid little. It was common that a melamed had 1-2 children, but the large groups tended to be 6-8. There was no organization, no menahel, no building, no transportation. This is described in many books, as well as by many who grew up in that era.

DY:

I am not a constant basher. The issue of “throwing out” from mesivta is highly controversial, and something that should never be done lightly. I have direct contact with way too many cases that were handled badly, and not a small percentage of the expulsions from quite a few mainstream litvishe and chassidishe yeshivos. The numbers do not matter, as the kid being expelled is a 100% victim, while the one not is 0%. And I do have quite a bit of experience here, being involved much closer to the inside than I am willing to describe in a public forum. I can sing praises as well, and when the discussion focuses on the strong points, I acknowledge them with proper respect.

NCB:

You’re being ridiculous. No, you don’t discipline a kid that’s bullying or a mechutzaf with teaching math or gemora. But a trained mechanech knows better than to make discipline the main tool of his job. The kid misbehaving is acting out, and needs to be guided, not punished. The acting out is a cry for help, being expressed immaturely. The kid needs guidance, help, and to be embraced by Torah value. Punishment never taught. It controlled. There is a small role for that. But making this a major tool for a yeshiva is a dereliction of duty. Your citing the needs of the individual over the majority sounds really nice, but is incorrect. The Chazon Ish ZT”L is quoted as having stated this (He passed away in 1953): Until now (post Holocaust with the major destruction to yeshivos and talmidei chachomim) the goal of yeshivos was to educate the tzibbur. It is now the responsibility to educate the yochid. I do not disagree that a talmid might need to be placed elsewhere. But simple relocation without attending to the needs of the talmid is irresponsible. Just punishing is most often destructive, not educational. There are ways to punish. I refer you to the sefer זריעה ובנין בחינוך from Rav Wolbe ZT”L. It is a section of the עלי שור – חלק ב. I am not fabricating anything here.

Bachur3:

Sorry, my use of screen name is for anonymity. I may not be the greatest genius here, but my experience is extensive, as is my current involvement with the subject matter. I will not identify further.

Syag:

Thanks for the support.

Not every talmid is a match for the school. But there is a reason for it. Individual differences between kids exist (duh!). But that is the role of the school, to fulfill חנוך לנער על פי דרכו. By our yeshivos creating schools that are modeled after the public school system, with large classrooms and a curriculum, we have encountered huge problems. In the days of a מלמד having no more than 6-8 kids, where individual attention was the norm, this was possible. And none other than שלמה המלך told us that this was the wisest way to be mechanech. Today’s system all but renders that impossible, and pushes kids into the mold of the yeshiva. Wise? NO! Convenient? Yes. Attending to the unique needs of the talmid is now the exception. There are bochurim who do far better with learning בקיאות, others עיון, and others in niches like הלכה, אגדה, etc. Being able to say that one learned under the tutelage of a specific Rosh Yeshiva is no longer common, being replaced by names of cities or yeshivos. Mobility has assumed the role that רבי מובהק once occupied.

Yeshivos are apt to describe their activity as עוסקים בצרכי ציבור. Sadly, that is hardly true anymore. Each is in the game of competing for the best talmidim, the ones that need the least guidance or direction. So the matching issue becomes very serious. If my yeshiva is out to produce those that will finish Shas while still under my roof, I will push for the hasmodoh that obliterates any trace of physical fitness activity, and will also pressure the בקיאות piece over עיון. Someone inclined to learn differently will be an unwelcome guest. Should a bochur like this be thrown out because of this mismatch? Should we question whether we should be fashioning a yeshiva on a single derech? Should we be pressing a square peg into a round hole?

What about behavioral issues? Should yeshivos have the authority to sentence a kid to live in the street, or should they work with him to shape up? Do they even know how to help?

The issue is complex. To trash the entire existing yeshiva system in order to create a better or more fair one is not reality. But I would hope that our yeshiva leaders re-examine their mandate.

Doom:

Rav Shmuel shlit”a was not anti-vaccines. He was not an advocate for them but was not against them. He also consulted with Rav Chaim Kanievsky shlit”a who concurred with him. And they addressed the issue of a school stopping unvaccinated kids from entering the school. This was not during an outbreak. Neither of these can be used the phantom “gedolim” that are against vaccinating.

I am sure there are many who share my question. I want one name of a Gadol who advised against vaccinating. Just one. And I want verification that he indeed said it. I will absolutely reject the casual, dismissive statement that “Gedolim” support the anti-vax conspiracy. I request that other commenters here second this motion, and I await eagerly one, single verifiable posek who said NOT to vaccinate. Until that happens, it is silly to proceed with any debate here. The vaxxers have numerous gedolim whose names have been publicized. Now the anti-vaxxers need to stop with their logical proofs that are laughable, and provide one single name of a Gadol that is alive and well who can verify the anti-vax support.

Doom:

Get some help, please. Your departure from reality is significant, and it is problematic.

You wrote: “Provaxxers: If government has the right to decide what is “the best interests of the child” and NOT the Parents, then Government Can and WILL outlaw Bris Milah! ”

Nonsense, and you know that. There is a huge difference between “medical rights” and public health. Eradicating contagious diseases is a public health issue. So is safe and clean water. Government has a responsibility here. You can get picky with the details, but don’t confuse them. The government is NOT looking to interfere with “medical rights”.

You wrote: “if you Provaxxers will not stand up for the right of Medical Freedom, You will cause Torah to be outlawed, Ch”V!” That remark is silly and pediatric. You know the response to that.

You wrote: “Many People object to vaccinations on RELIGIOUS GROUNDS. If They Lose THEIR Religious Rights, then We Lose OUR Religious Rights!”

More nonsense. As noted in an earlier comment, there is NO religious objection to vaccination. The garbage about Bitachon is a serious shaming of one of our precious midos. You embarrass yourself with such stupidity. Poskim all paskened about the obligation to vaccinate. If you choose not to, you are exercising your MEDICAL rights, not your RELIGIOUS rights. Stop confusing the issues. That’s intellectually dishonest.

Our generation has witnessed many things being cast as “religious”, with the intent on it being given respect and the protection from challenge. Many issues that land in that category are imported from other realms, and are truly NOT religious at all. Having a sensitivity to something and a proclivity for or against it might be an emotional issue, but that does not translate into religion.

Doom: Please show me where Torah says to not vaccinate.

sariray:

Comparisons that are senseless is one of the arguing points here. There is much more illogic than meets the eye.

Each and every medication, whether prescription, over-the-counter, and even nutritional supplements has actions that it accomplishes and side effects. Using any of these requires a judgment that weighs the benefits against the risks. Passing such judgment requires an understanding of the entire picture, not a specific or single report even in the professional literature. The average person is not equipped to make this judgment, and must resort to relying on experts to do that. So until I know that a commenter here on behalf of anti-vaxxing is an expert, I dismiss it as I would do with any non-professional advice. On legal matters, one should consult with an attorney, and on medical matters, with a physician. On Halacha, one asks a Rov, and on a leaky pipe, with a plumber. Lay advice is worthless.

The cancer patient takes medication that is toxic. Why? Because the benefits of killing the cancer outweigh the risks of the adverse reactions. First, insure survival, then deal with the consequences. A dead patient is useless. The issue of vaccination is that simple. Yes, it can have adverse reactions. So does Tylenol. So does every other medication. Taking it needlessly is not advisable. Why suffer the negatives when there is no gain?

Rav Sternbuch’s tshuvah here was most revealing in focusing on our obligation to follow mainstream medicine, rather than conspiracy theorists. And mainstream medicine acknowledges that vaccinating is far better than the alternative.

getitclear:

Your post is appreciated despite our disagreement. It is polite, and for a subject under debate in the CR, that is an accomplishment. I see things quite opposite, and I have major comments on your post. As we are all in this emotionally, I will try to emulate your decency in responding.

Several points you made deserve challenge. I find them highly irritating (the content, not the delivery). I will try to list some of these individually.

* “So if the government and vaccine producers can limit your fear of disease, and assure your well being, you will choose to follow their advice, innovations and promises.” – This point is untrue. The government is not trying to allay fears. It is trying to eradicate disease. And studies show it has fared quite well. There is a great track record of eliminating quite a few diseases, and greatly reducing the incidence of others.

* “I believe all you parents who go to the doctor to vaccinate have the best intentions in mind, and of course you don’t take your doctor’s word with certainty when he says vaccines are very safe, safer than the disease.
I believe you take the time to read disease facts. I believe you have the courage to ask your doctor to show you the vaccine package insert, so you can read the adverse side effects related to the vaccine your child is about to receive.
I believe your doctor is honest and lawfully hands that to you, the consumer. I believe you read it….I believe you discuss your concerns and take the time to make a conscious choice to allow your doctor to administer the vaccine to you dear child.” – This is the sarcasm that serves as the emotional cover for the intellectual weakness of the arguments. We vaxxers rely on the government to do the research for us. We entered this world observing the successes of vaccinating, and do not engage in the scientific study of a subject that lies outside our domain of learning and experience. That’s the role of government. Once again, we openly saw the devastation of various illnesses and how they vanished once there was widespread vaxxing.

* “I’m sure you know our country was founded on the belief of freedom. I’m sure you agree that as humans we should have freedom of choice.” – Nice sales pitch. That’s why we chose to vaccinate and you chose not to. That freedom is yours. No one ever entered your home and threatened you with criminal charges over your decision to not vaccinate. I might have an ideological issue with your exercise of parental authority to deprive the baby/child of the resistance to the illnesses. But that argument against abortion was flatly rejected by the left, and has all but vanished from discussion.

* “I believe in taking responsibility for my health. I believe in giving my body what it needs so it can function the way it was designed to be. I’m aware that when disease strikes, I or my kids may be sick for a week or two, but will get over it with Hashem’s help.” – I challenge the responsibility of that statement. There are benign diseases that are hardly the threat they once were. In earlier generations, diseases that are mostly considered insignificant today were killers. Anti-biotics changed that. The development of strains of microbes that are resistant to these medications is an unfortunate side effect. That is a real issue. And I am a firm believer that אני ה’ רפאך. But that does not mean to avoid doctors, or to reject mainstream medical care. Hashem provided us with the advances in science and technology that enable us to study the human body and its functions, and to intervene in a great many ways to improve our health, well being, and longevity. But denying normal medical care is akin to staying home and not going to work since מזונותיו של אדם קצובין לו מראש השנה עד ראש השנה. That’s blatantly irresponsible. Hashem provided us with the avenues through which he will heal and cure us. False בטחון is not a mitzvah or a virtue.

* “You trust the government with certainty. I trust Hashem – my body’s designer with certainty.” – That’s a veiled accusation that vaxxers lack trust in Hashem. That is not only unfair and untrue, but a misrepresentation of what trust in Hashem means. The previous comment contains the reaction to this line of yours.

* “Can you understand that we never entered an agreement that I, who oppose vaccines will get vaccinated, to help protect you?” – We never entered into any agreement. But Torah Law is clear that causing someone else harm is completely ossur. I have no interest in your organic, vegan, gluten free, etc., diet. Those choices are yours alone, and no agreements with anyone else are needed. The situation here is the danger and risk you are inflicting on me. You may be entitled to your anti-vaxxing shittah. But you are not entitled to expose other people to disease. If there is an outbreak, your unvaccinated child is a potential threat to others, and should be restricted from those venues that place others at risk. Keeping these kids out of school is not unfair.

* “I ask you to stop with the hatred and cynicism that’s driving us further apart as humans on this planet, and as people of one nation.” – I concur 100% that hatred and cynicism should be banished. They are also threats to our health, emotional and spiritual, and even physical. However, the frank resistance to the banning of unvaccinated kids in school is without merit. Reality is that their presence provides exposure that has already sickened several hundred children, with several that are suffering from very serious conditions. You chose to raise your kids without vaccines, that’s your freedom. But imposing your freedom on others is unacceptable. We don’t hate your choice, just have a legitimate issue with imposing disease on our children. Our right to safety wins on this.

* “Do you want to set the stage for forceful laws and regulations regarding your health or religion to be imposed on you?” – Absolutely not! But just as I want our Halachic leaders and Poskim to provide me with guidance that insures my compliance with Halacha, I want the medical experts to provide me with the guidance to maintain my health. Are you opposed to warning labels on cigarettes or alcohol? If I choose to smoke, I may do so as long as it doesn’t impinge on others’ right to breathe air. I may not pump stinky second hand smoke into the room, with considerations of the foul odor and health consequences of second hand smoke. I want our government to make these laws and regulations. They employ the experts for these matters. We have Poskim to serve as the Halacha experts.

I commend your post for its delivery. I strongly disagree with many of your points. I am not looking to convince you of anything, but to be tolerant of our safety.

GH:

I have no problem disagreeing with you. But your last comment was close to brainless.

Trump proved to be an Oheiv Yisroel by being the first to recognize that what the Islamists and Palis are doing is terror (not protest). he also stopped apologizing for American support for Israel, and he cut the stupid funding that empowered and and financed terror. The Embassy issue was symbolic.

Your perception of rabbonim instructing mindless people to vote Republican speaks very poorly for your intellect.

You also parrot the baloney that the MSM (y”sh) have fabricated and repeated often enough to have you sing their jingle. Actually, Pelosi disclosed that strategy a while ago, and the clip has circulated widely. That method makes people believe foolishness enough to vote with their feet, while brains are completely disengaged. There has not been a single thing to date that documents or supports any identification of Trump as racist, supremacist, misogynist, etc. That is a concoction of the left, and their politicians and media continue to sing it. It is sad that this cannot be prosecuted in court as defamatory.

Meanwhile, the present Democrats, almost unanimously, support every form of immorality, in violation of most standards that were part of the formation of USA. their version of democracy is frightfully poor at anything that varies much from socialism. It is true that many of the local elected officials that befriend the Jewish community in NY are officially Democrats. But at the federal level, we have never encountered a party in USA that is as opposite to our values and ways of life.

I wish you happiness and success, though at the complete exclusion of what would support your political obsessions. I also wish the Dems a complete mapoloh.

Yes, thoughts.

We have a Torah, and that is the Supreme. Yes, there are Lomdei Torah, Talmidei Chachomim, Tzaddikim, etc. We are to revere them, and follow their direction and guidance. They are to be our role models. There are numerous places in Torah where we can find the halachos of this.

When we deviate from that, and make the individual, whether Talmid Chochom, Rov, Rebbe, etc. into a deity, we have a huge problem. It’s called Avodah Zarah. And this is not a small aveiroh that one might dismiss or overlook in a context of other nicer things. It’s one of the 3 cardinal sins. Our leaders do not grant us Divine forgiveness, and they do not limit our exposure to Torah. They do not demand allegiance, and they do not have supreme power. They do not punish, nor do they control our lives.

This Lev Tumah cult is not just a wacky group. They are ovdei avodah zarah, and they need to be addressed from that perspective. The leaders need to be apprehended and either eliminated or incarcerated. Their victims need to be rescued and deprogrammed. This cult needs to be eliminated, and Klal Yisroel should have zero tolerance for stuff like this. This is not a faction of Klal Yisroel, but a cancerous enemy of Torah Judaism. The role of authorities here is permissible because of the extremes of abuse that they commit. May we be zocheh to see this form of apikorsus expunged from Klal Yisroel.

Supporting them is like giving money to the Palestinians. It gets hocked by the leadership, and they grab it for themselves and their own evil intentions. It doesn’t reach anyone there who is hungry. Instead of providing them money, we need to support a rescue mission in which the leaders are either murdered or captured. This avodah zarah cult must be eliminated. That means the victims rescued, and the perpetrators either turned into carcasses or locked up for life. It is borderline apikorsus to consider this a faction of Yiddishkeit. It is blatant avodah zarah, and this requires battle.

Neville:

I am operating under the experience of watching rabbonim talking through their hats about many subjects they have never studied or experienced. I am not using a broad brush. There are many who do consult. But there are plenty who do not. I have been consulting with many over the years. It’s a mixed bag.

One of the issues here is a dispute about just what Daas Torah is, and what it means to subscribe to it as a way of Torah life. Perhaps my opinion is unique, but here goes.

What I believe was a source for Daas Torah was the vast knowledge that was possessed by Torah leaders. Without secular sources for knowledge (even though יש חכמה בגוים) they were skilled and expert in subjects besides a difficult Tosafos or Rambam. They possessed a “sixth” sense, what we might categorize in the realm of Ruach Hakodesh, that enabled them to render opinions about various subject matters. And even these giants had no problem responding top posed questions declining to resolve the presented problem. “I don’t know” or “I’m unable to help” were responses that were not foreign to them, despite their erudition in Torah and lives of kedusha.

Today’s world is vastly different. We treat the possession of Torah knowledge as Ruach Hakodesh, and a position as a Rosh Yeshiva, Rebbe, elderly Talmid Chochom, or mekubal as the tell-all answer that is defined as Daas Torah. I intend no disrespect, but this assumption is not necessarily true. I personally turn to just these types of people to pose questions, so I do not minimize them or their ideas. But completing Shas does not qualify one to repair an automobile engine, nor does it give someone the knowledge to give medical advice. In fact, numerous cycles of Daf Yomi do not authorize one to pasken shailos on a great many areas in halacha, all of which require special study and internship (שימוש). So when young couples in crisis turn to a Rosh Yeshiva or Rosh Kollel for advice, or when parents with a struggling teen consult their Rav, are they able to be confident that they are being guided correctly? Do we assume that possession of Torah data equals Daas Torah, and that this is the best ultimate advice to follow? Should we also accept that when a young Rosh Yeshiva ascends to fill his father’s position and dons the corresponding levush that he has also been Divinely endowed with the שימוש to become expert in areas he has not studied or trained?

While Daas Torah deserves immense respect, those who are approached as representing Daas Torah need to be keenly aware and brutally honest about the range and limitations of their knowledge and experience. Until these Chachomim are able to handle their tafkid with true awareness of their expertise, they should reject those problems and questions that are out of their domain, and refer to others when they can.

Anytime the talk of Daas Torah gets raised here in the CR, there will be needless debate because of the confusion just described. It’s not about MO or other labels.

Together with the liberal wave is the trashing of things that we hold near and dear – moral values. The garbage that will result from this will affect every Yid. We still have tefilos that HKB”H should direct the operations of government – לב מלך ושרים ביד ה.

Time4Truth & Philo:

“many people are in pain, that gives no excuse to abandon Yiddishkeit”

We’re not excusing anything. I do not condone abandoning Torah and Mitzvos. I am understanding it in its context, and wish I could do more to help bring the afflicted person back to the derech. But let’s reverse the dynamic here. Just what do you intend to pronounce by holding the OTD person responsible? I never said he is not responsible for what he is doing. However, his judgment was not delegated to me, and it is not my role to “attack” him for this. I would not want younger people to see him as a role model, I would be horrified if he brought treif or chilul Shabbos into my home (or anyone else’s). Do you expect me to wish him dead? Do you seek to have the community impose punishments on him? What is your expectation of me?

It is not about excusing. It is about understanding. And if either of you have been involved with the kiruv kerovim work as you claim, you should understand well what I mean. There is an obligation of rebuke – completely dependent on the likelihood of a positive outcome. Should an observer be happy or indifferent when seeing someone OTD? I never said that. I am saddened by it.

As for the משומד, we are instructed by Chazal how to treat him. If HKB”H sees this as emotional illness rather than rishus, that’s for Him to handle. There is no reference in Torah to treat the OTD person with disdain. There is an obligation to help him return.

Our generation has achieved an ultimate in our collective growth. We have gravitated toward the downsizing of our own saichel and relegated it to the memory and power of our cell phones. Smart phones for stupid people.

P.S. I own a smartphone that has been crippled at my choice. I have limited needs for certain features, and blocked all others. I prefer being smart to carrying around my brains in my pocket.

philo:

Murderers are expressly harming others. Not so for OTD. They are self-destructive. No, it’s not good, and behaviors are not being dismissed or excused. And if a OTD kid gets involved in crime, I advocate the full brunt of the law. Yes, I have advised using police to counter threats and damaging behavior. But you are confusing a huge issue here. There is a major difference between בין אדם למקום and בין אדם לחבירו. Day and night. I advocate toughness on any form of crime, be it shoplifting, DUI, drug dealing, etc. If an OTD kid chooses ch”v to stop putting on tefillin or observing Shabbos, it is sad, but not my business. To the degree I might possess skills to attract him back to shmiras mitzvos, I have the obligation of ערבות to return to HKB”H one of his flock that strayed. Until then, HKB”H did not appoint me as his police officer or prosecutor to intervene. And the OTD will sooner follow the kiruv that is appropriate for him sooner than the sticks and stones that others imply are needed.

No liberal corruptness for me. I recognize that crime is evil and requires appropriate intervention. The escaping from religion because of the myriad of negative experience is not evil, despite being sad and painful for others. Law enforcement, both the arrest and incarceration, do not rehabilitate the criminal. At best, they protect society from recurring crime. There might be an outcome of deterrence. That is not the intended result of intervention with an OTD kid. We want the kid to return to יהדות with the passion and determination that were our aspirations for him in the first place. Yes, that is an uphill battle. No, most people do not know how to accomplish that. Certainly not be criminalizing the aveiros. We should all achieve Ahavas Hashem – the very first mitzvah that gets coupled with קבלת עול מלכות שמים that we recite several times a day. No one ever succeeded in achieving that via punishment or other negative forms of treatment.

Do not confuse בין אדם למקום with בין אדם לחבירו.

Rewording this question into its true situations, “Which is worse, to be evil or to be sick?” Converting is שמד, and this is a question of guilt or innocence. OTD is not evil. It is a manifestation of someone coping with internal conflict (sometimes even external conflict) and making bad choices. While some who are OTD engage in criminal behavior, requiring the involvement of law enforcement, the OTD piece of the pie belongs in the realm of mental health. Pose this matter to anyone with experience dealing with at-risk and OTD issues, and you will find universal agreement on this.

Saw it in the sefer מגדל עוז from the יעב”ץ

This sefer has been the subject of controversy. It is authentic?

Joseph:

You wrote: “Why if divorced should a parent be forced to pay for that if he/she wouldn’t have been had the parents remained married to each other?”

Excellent question.

When this child will need funding for college and legal expenses, the divorced parents will play hot potato. They might be agreeable and on the same page that the expenses should be covered. But each will volley the burden to the other. And without an agreement, it will never end. The married parents (assuming a healthy relationship) who will agree have joint funds, and will make their decision on feasibility, not whether they agreed only if the other could pick up the tab. It is not about making a chiddush for divorced parents. It is about preventing a problem for the kid pursuing his career and family.

Joseph:

I strongly disagree. The “Shalom Bayis” tactic is not about wanting to reconcile a marriage. It is more often a delay and refusal tactic. The reality is that there are some marriages that can be saved, and should be. I do not challenge the BD for paying attention to this claim. But the end result is that most of these cases have already failed at numerous efforts, and that this claim is unrelated to a true desire to reconcile. I speak from considerable experience.

As for the reference to the halachic pre-nup, I happen to be in the know. The RCA pre-nup has huge halachic questions, and the poskim ruled against for good reason. What you may not know is that there have been other efforts to develop something that the mainstream poskim can accept, and that quite a number of them have already approved it. It is not yet being rolled out to the public, but it has gotten past a surprising number of well recognized poskim. You may reserve your comments on this for the information about what comprises this and the opinions of the poskim that will be released to the public in due time. My reference was the reason for having a pre-nup, not any trace of accepting the existing RCA document. The proposed pre-nup does not cause Get-Meusa, as already concluded by renowned poskim. I apologize if you thought I stood in approval of the RCA version.

yitzchokm:

Your sarcasm does not reflect much intellect, just a poor effort at humor. It’s not about Dr. Spock feel good stuff. It’s about the great guidance of our Chachomim how to raise children. And the failures to follow their guidance are extreme. Sadly, the yeshivos that follow their directions are few and far between. That’s not what they say in their fundraising and publicity efforts.

Divorce is always a choice. And the broad brush that this is the favorite approach of therapists is fictional. Rather, there is always an effort to reconcile a marriage that has even minimal potential. Talk to some therapists, and then address the issue. You are pushing agendas that have nothing to do with fact. That is frankly foolish. The best environment for raising children consists of several elements. The spiritual is one. The harmonious one is another. There are kids who are resilient, and manage well in life despite difficult pasts. Not all victims of abuse are scarred for life. Not all children of divorced homes are damaged goods. Does that suggest to promote or tolerate abuse or divorced? Is this the senselessness that supports your sarcasm?

There is unfair and undue stigma to divorce, and yeshivos are part of it. They can serve well as part of the solution, but are often part of the problem. No, divorce is not good. Many times, it is the healthier alternative to a home of constant strife, divisiveness, and chaos. And stop knocking professionals. There are rotten apples in that barrel, as in any other group of people. But on the whole, they can do much to help people make rational decisions in their lives, and reach decisions with responsibility, not knee jerk reactions. They can help the couples who do divorce do so without the ugly conflicts that destroy children (if their directions would only be followed).

yitzchokm:

You seem to have amassed a rather substantial number of weird ideas and spewed them into the dialogue here in the CR. I wonder how you have the gall to continue this foolishness without shame.

One: You wrote: “Did you ever stop to think that the cookie cutter schools pushed 98% of the people to stay on the derech? Overall we’re a resounding success.” That’s a lot of hooey, and you know it. There are not 98% on the derech. You would have a major struggle with explaining what “on the derech” means, as no one truly knows what the “derech” is. If you are referring to manner of attire, stop right there. I know many, many people who dress the part, black hat, yeshivishe or chassidishe levush, and are simply faking it for the world. Your 98% number shrinks by much. Are you aware that of all chuppahs in Brooklyn, the estimates from rabbonim who know inside stories claim that about 4% of them involve one or both – chosson and/or kallah who are no longer Sho,er Shabbos? Our yeshivos are a resounding failure in promoting the Ahavas Hashem and Ahavas Hatorah that is a requisite of chinuch. Our kids get through the system believing that they “have to learn”, not that they want to learn. Those that “want” are pleasing others’ demands on them, not their personal desires. The rules and chinuch patterns have little resemblance to what the Chachomim instructed, and the concept of חנוך לנער על פי דרכו is all but obsolete in the cookie cutter system. We do far better at producing chassidishe and yeshivishe robots than budding Ovdei Hashem.

Two: You wrote: “Most divorced families are not due to infidelity or physical abuse. As long as both spouses are marriageable material, they should remain married.” Pardon, but your ignorance is showing. There are many other conditions and situations that render marriage nonviable. The Torah does not refer to either physical abuse or infidelity as basis for terminating a marriage. True, two spouses who want a marriage to work can often be helped to achieve that. But often, one is too enraged and hurt, and the work to reconcile requires two people. Your rush to generalize is not flattering to you, and you should first go get some experience in the field before spouting these statements.

No one believes that divorce is a good thing. It is the way to go as as the lesser of the evils. I have met many lay people who are apt to push for ending a marriage. That is not the case for the overwhelming majority of rabbonim, batei din, therapists, or other professionals. Rather, these people are apt to seek reconciliation or entertain the desire for “shalom bayis” of one spouse when there is no justification to maintain a failed marriage.

Is there a thread titled “Black Hats Matter”?

For many generations, the commonly available siddurim in both Ashkenaz and Sfard were created by publishers. The true Sephardic nuschaos are far more reliable as coming from a reputable source, but those in the Ashkenazic realm, including the contemporary Ashkenaz and Sfard lack this feature. There are siddurim that are based on kabala from the Ari Zal, and these also include many differences. Ultimately, the base siddur for all of these Ashkenazic nuschaos is the Roedelheim Siddur that was published by Rav Volf Heidenheim (talmid of Rav Nosson Adler, and chaver to the Chasam Sofer). he published his siddur 8 times, with modifications in each subsequent edition. It was probably republished after his death, but i don’t know if there were changes.

Nusach is a complex issue, and there are many, many nushchaos, with variations in many of them. It is not uncommon for combinations between features of one nusach and those of another, with such traditions occurring in the Litvishe velt just as in the Chassidishe velt.