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Chabadshluchah:
I am not one to disagree with the Rebbe ZT”L. His statement is not much different from what was proclaimed many times by Gedolei Yisroel. Many years ago, there was a statement from the Moetzes Gedolei Yisroel of the Agudah that expelling a student required a beis din that is independent of the yeshiva/school to rule on each case. That statement was DOA. Firstly, there has yet to be known beis din that will accept a case involving a yeshiva. Secondly, it was never implemented. Not only do the many askanim working with OTD and at-risk kids know of no such case among the many of their clientele who have all been ousted from yeshivos, but have never encountered a case where a talmid’s expulsion was brought before a Rov/Posek for approval. Here’s the problem. It is correct that some expulsions are indicated. The trouble is that the yeshiva is one of the baalei din in the matter, and cannot be considered objective. For that reason, an independent outsider who is capable of objectivity should be consulted. So far, no such consultation is known about. I suggest that there may actually be such situations that involved an objective third party, but this should be a 100% rule, not a rare exception.
The statement from the Moetzes stated that a child who was a “rodeif” can be ousted, with beis din approval. Aside from the phantom beis din, the determination of “rodeif” is far from simple. A kid that is spreading schmutz among his peers may well be a rodeif. One that sells drugs might be one, too. The drug user and the one that has unfiltered internet at home might not be one. Again, there still needs to be a process to determine risk. And yeshivos overestimate risk quite often. I have consulted to some situations that were dramatic, and speak volumes of the failure of the system.
The Rebbe ZT”L shared brilliance. But how do we know when to apply it appropriately?
username:
Interesting tshuvah. However, I suggest, as we have heard from Gedolei Yisroel of recent generations, some of whom have been quoted earlier, that the case today is completely different. The risk of bittul Torah is something one can take, as per Rav Baumel. We should have no trouble recognizing, as the Chazon Ish did, that the risk today is pikuach nefesh. It nearly seals the future of that talmid to leave shmiras mitzvos altogether, and who can guess the longer term effects on future generations. The Lubavitcher Rebbe ZT”L (I believe it was the Rasha”b) had a talmid that committed something that warranted severe consequences. The Rebbe himself called in the bochur and informed him that he needed to expel him from the yeshiva. The talmid accepted the consequence, but then asked the Rebbe, “If I am thrown out, ok. But what will be of the future generations?” The Rebbe embraced him and took him back into the yeshiva. Today’s consequences are far more serious than being oveir gezel. I would hope that people don’t just jump on the bandwagon of a tshuvah like this and claim we can discard talmidim who are annoying. Do we do that to our children who wake us during the night?
Bachur3:
I bet there are several. I still shudder for all those who fail our children, considering their work holy. Of course, chinuch is as holy a task as there can be. But I repeatedly stress the need to look to our greatest for direction. Visit your seforim stores, and peruse the wealth of material now published on the subject, and all from purely Torah sources. These texts are not mandatory study for those entering the field, and way too many mechanchim are unaware of their existence. I recall confronting my children’s menahel about this, specifying a few names of seforim. He actually did know a few. However, he was brutally honest when admitting he never opened them, nor had he ever demanded that any of his faculty learn them. Seems that achieving the authority position of menahel is enough to qualify one as an expert. I say not. I still revert to the timely and wise advice from our greatest. Many make specific discussion about the matter of expelling talmidim. There is the clear message from the Chazon Ish that this is a matter of Pikuach Nefesh and requires a beis din of 23. That quote is found in many places, including the biography Maaseh Ish. In reality, it is even rare for a Rov who is independent to the yeshiva to be consulted, let alone a beis din of any number.
Milhouse:
Before there was a chinuch system as we know it today, with yeshivos, etc., parents hired a melamed to learn with their child. These מלמדי דרדקי were traditionally paid little. It was common that a melamed had 1-2 children, but the large groups tended to be 6-8. There was no organization, no menahel, no building, no transportation. This is described in many books, as well as by many who grew up in that era.
DY:
I am not a constant basher. The issue of “throwing out” from mesivta is highly controversial, and something that should never be done lightly. I have direct contact with way too many cases that were handled badly, and not a small percentage of the expulsions from quite a few mainstream litvishe and chassidishe yeshivos. The numbers do not matter, as the kid being expelled is a 100% victim, while the one not is 0%. And I do have quite a bit of experience here, being involved much closer to the inside than I am willing to describe in a public forum. I can sing praises as well, and when the discussion focuses on the strong points, I acknowledge them with proper respect.
NCB:
You’re being ridiculous. No, you don’t discipline a kid that’s bullying or a mechutzaf with teaching math or gemora. But a trained mechanech knows better than to make discipline the main tool of his job. The kid misbehaving is acting out, and needs to be guided, not punished. The acting out is a cry for help, being expressed immaturely. The kid needs guidance, help, and to be embraced by Torah value. Punishment never taught. It controlled. There is a small role for that. But making this a major tool for a yeshiva is a dereliction of duty. Your citing the needs of the individual over the majority sounds really nice, but is incorrect. The Chazon Ish ZT”L is quoted as having stated this (He passed away in 1953): Until now (post Holocaust with the major destruction to yeshivos and talmidei chachomim) the goal of yeshivos was to educate the tzibbur. It is now the responsibility to educate the yochid. I do not disagree that a talmid might need to be placed elsewhere. But simple relocation without attending to the needs of the talmid is irresponsible. Just punishing is most often destructive, not educational. There are ways to punish. I refer you to the sefer זריעה ובנין בחינוך from Rav Wolbe ZT”L. It is a section of the עלי שור – חלק ב. I am not fabricating anything here.
Bachur3:
Sorry, my use of screen name is for anonymity. I may not be the greatest genius here, but my experience is extensive, as is my current involvement with the subject matter. I will not identify further.
Syag:
Thanks for the support.
DY:
I suppose that who possess an IQ on the positive side of 0 understand that each kid facing expulsion by a yeshiva is an individual case to be judged on its own merits. What makes this worth discussion is that it is commonplace for yeshivos to throw kids out impulsively. Whereas there must be those who have faculty meetings where they discuss the matter, there are certainly many that do not. Sorry, no statistics. I have heard many, many cases where a kid is simply ejected, for him and his parents to fend for themselves. In certain cases, these yeshivos were corrupt enough to call other possible yeshivos where the expelled talmid might go and warn them to not accept him. Not as a rule, but not a rare exception either.
The pikuach nefesh factor seems to be ignored, and the role the yeshiva should be taking to work with the talmid (albeit a challenging one) is also bypassed. The Gedolim of yesteryear were highly opposed to such practice, though using this as an argument to stop an expulsion has not worked.
I agree that there are yeshivos that cannot work for certain talmidim, and they need to go elsewhere. An earlier comment noted that “throwing out” must be accompanied by finding an alternative placement. I agree, but optimism here is hard to find.
Not every talmid is a match for the school. But there is a reason for it. Individual differences between kids exist (duh!). But that is the role of the school, to fulfill חנוך לנער על פי דרכו. By our yeshivos creating schools that are modeled after the public school system, with large classrooms and a curriculum, we have encountered huge problems. In the days of a מלמד having no more than 6-8 kids, where individual attention was the norm, this was possible. And none other than שלמה המלך told us that this was the wisest way to be mechanech. Today’s system all but renders that impossible, and pushes kids into the mold of the yeshiva. Wise? NO! Convenient? Yes. Attending to the unique needs of the talmid is now the exception. There are bochurim who do far better with learning בקיאות, others עיון, and others in niches like הלכה, אגדה, etc. Being able to say that one learned under the tutelage of a specific Rosh Yeshiva is no longer common, being replaced by names of cities or yeshivos. Mobility has assumed the role that רבי מובהק once occupied.
Yeshivos are apt to describe their activity as עוסקים בצרכי ציבור. Sadly, that is hardly true anymore. Each is in the game of competing for the best talmidim, the ones that need the least guidance or direction. So the matching issue becomes very serious. If my yeshiva is out to produce those that will finish Shas while still under my roof, I will push for the hasmodoh that obliterates any trace of physical fitness activity, and will also pressure the בקיאות piece over עיון. Someone inclined to learn differently will be an unwelcome guest. Should a bochur like this be thrown out because of this mismatch? Should we question whether we should be fashioning a yeshiva on a single derech? Should we be pressing a square peg into a round hole?
What about behavioral issues? Should yeshivos have the authority to sentence a kid to live in the street, or should they work with him to shape up? Do they even know how to help?
The issue is complex. To trash the entire existing yeshiva system in order to create a better or more fair one is not reality. But I would hope that our yeshiva leaders re-examine their mandate.
Doom:
You wrote: “Rav Shmuel shlitah said that Yeshivas/BY may not stop unvaccinated children from attending Yeshiva/BY.
You don’t consider that an anti-vax position?”Rav Shmuel shlit”a specified that this was not during an outbreak. If you don’t believe, ask him.
Rav Shmuel was not pro-vax. But he was not anti-vax either. Review direct quotes from him. His Rebbetzin was anti-vax. No idea whether she changed her mind, or thinks differently during an outbreak.
Doom:
Rav Shmuel shlit”a was not anti-vaccines. He was not an advocate for them but was not against them. He also consulted with Rav Chaim Kanievsky shlit”a who concurred with him. And they addressed the issue of a school stopping unvaccinated kids from entering the school. This was not during an outbreak. Neither of these can be used the phantom “gedolim” that are against vaccinating.
Question is extremely complex. To throw out as a punishment is certainly inexcusable. The job of the yeshiva is to educate, not punish. There is a very, very small role for punishment in yeshiva, and only if it is part of the education. The punishment that is intended to control, take revenge, or express the anger/rage of the rebbe or menahel is anti-Torah, anti-chinuch, and ossur. For those who want to bicker with me, please first review several of the many seforim on chinuch. I will note those from Rav Wolbe, Rav Ovadia Yosef, Nesivas Sholom, Chasam Sofer, Rav Aharon Friedman, and others. Then you may cite chapter and verse in any challenge to my statements.
I am sure there are many who share my question. I want one name of a Gadol who advised against vaccinating. Just one. And I want verification that he indeed said it. I will absolutely reject the casual, dismissive statement that “Gedolim” support the anti-vax conspiracy. I request that other commenters here second this motion, and I await eagerly one, single verifiable posek who said NOT to vaccinate. Until that happens, it is silly to proceed with any debate here. The vaxxers have numerous gedolim whose names have been publicized. Now the anti-vaxxers need to stop with their logical proofs that are laughable, and provide one single name of a Gadol that is alive and well who can verify the anti-vax support.
Doom:
You wrote: “Why does the CDC refuse to do a Vaxxed vs UnVaxxed Study? It WOULD Prove once and for all – if Vaccines cause Autism (and ADHD, Allergies, Asthma, DIabetes…) or NOT! Just Like the
Smoker vs Non-Smoker study proved Conclusively that Smoking causes Cancer.
And that is why CDC is refusing to do the study. CDC knows Vaccines do More Harm then good!”For the most part, CDC does not conduct the research. There are quite a few research centers around the country and the world, and studies have been done. There is no causal relationship between vaccines and autism. The only supportive research was debunked as fabricated. Numerous attempts to replicate found zero correlation. the reason CDC won’t push for additional research is because it was already done.
Tobacco is little proof of anything. The government was not regulating tobacco at all. The industry did have studies that they withheld from the public. This did not involve government. Sorry, good try. No parallel.
Your desperation to prove fiction is not working. Frankly, this is getting boring. Watching paint dry is about as exciting.
Doom:
Get some help, please. Your departure from reality is significant, and it is problematic.
You wrote: “Provaxxers: If government has the right to decide what is “the best interests of the child” and NOT the Parents, then Government Can and WILL outlaw Bris Milah! ”
Nonsense, and you know that. There is a huge difference between “medical rights” and public health. Eradicating contagious diseases is a public health issue. So is safe and clean water. Government has a responsibility here. You can get picky with the details, but don’t confuse them. The government is NOT looking to interfere with “medical rights”.
You wrote: “if you Provaxxers will not stand up for the right of Medical Freedom, You will cause Torah to be outlawed, Ch”V!” That remark is silly and pediatric. You know the response to that.
You wrote: “Many People object to vaccinations on RELIGIOUS GROUNDS. If They Lose THEIR Religious Rights, then We Lose OUR Religious Rights!”
More nonsense. As noted in an earlier comment, there is NO religious objection to vaccination. The garbage about Bitachon is a serious shaming of one of our precious midos. You embarrass yourself with such stupidity. Poskim all paskened about the obligation to vaccinate. If you choose not to, you are exercising your MEDICAL rights, not your RELIGIOUS rights. Stop confusing the issues. That’s intellectually dishonest.
Our generation has witnessed many things being cast as “religious”, with the intent on it being given respect and the protection from challenge. Many issues that land in that category are imported from other realms, and are truly NOT religious at all. Having a sensitivity to something and a proclivity for or against it might be an emotional issue, but that does not translate into religion.
Doom: Please show me where Torah says to not vaccinate.
Truth:
You missed the point completely. Firstly, the population involved is affected in much bigger statistics. Your approach would minimize the terror attack of 9/11, that only 3000 people died, which could have happened worldwide in a single day. That’s quite foolish. We are observing a community that has an anomalous spread of a contagious disease, with potentially serious consequences. Additionally, there is a myth that not vaccinating is a “religious exemption”. This is not accurate or true. One may choose to not vaccinate because of one’s beliefs about the benefit risk ratio, or the conspiracy theories about the CDC and big pharm lying, etc. But the lie that there is a religious exemption is intolerable. In fact, and poskim are unanimous about the chiyuv to inoculate kids. Perhaps force cannot be used. But to allow this obsession to put others at risk is completely unacceptable, and the poskim spelled that out. So what does religion say about this?
sariray:
Comparisons that are senseless is one of the arguing points here. There is much more illogic than meets the eye.
Each and every medication, whether prescription, over-the-counter, and even nutritional supplements has actions that it accomplishes and side effects. Using any of these requires a judgment that weighs the benefits against the risks. Passing such judgment requires an understanding of the entire picture, not a specific or single report even in the professional literature. The average person is not equipped to make this judgment, and must resort to relying on experts to do that. So until I know that a commenter here on behalf of anti-vaxxing is an expert, I dismiss it as I would do with any non-professional advice. On legal matters, one should consult with an attorney, and on medical matters, with a physician. On Halacha, one asks a Rov, and on a leaky pipe, with a plumber. Lay advice is worthless.
The cancer patient takes medication that is toxic. Why? Because the benefits of killing the cancer outweigh the risks of the adverse reactions. First, insure survival, then deal with the consequences. A dead patient is useless. The issue of vaccination is that simple. Yes, it can have adverse reactions. So does Tylenol. So does every other medication. Taking it needlessly is not advisable. Why suffer the negatives when there is no gain?
Rav Sternbuch’s tshuvah here was most revealing in focusing on our obligation to follow mainstream medicine, rather than conspiracy theorists. And mainstream medicine acknowledges that vaccinating is far better than the alternative.
Syag:
The manner of expression was menchlich. Read it again, and you gotta notice that. Quite in contrast to many other anti-vaxxer comments on this thread and others on the subject. That’s why I commended that. The content has been appropriately destroyed by several commenters here who tore it apart point by point.
I believe I stated this elsewhere. When someone does something for emotional reasons and passions run high, the tendency is to ignore anything intellectual. If we approach the anti-vax movement with logic, the debate will go nowhere. It is not supported by logic but by emotion. My personal preference is to follow the dictate, the language of which was coined by the Baal Hatanya – מוח שליט על הלב. We are to make logic dominate over emotion.
getitclear:
Your post is appreciated despite our disagreement. It is polite, and for a subject under debate in the CR, that is an accomplishment. I see things quite opposite, and I have major comments on your post. As we are all in this emotionally, I will try to emulate your decency in responding.
Several points you made deserve challenge. I find them highly irritating (the content, not the delivery). I will try to list some of these individually.
* “So if the government and vaccine producers can limit your fear of disease, and assure your well being, you will choose to follow their advice, innovations and promises.” – This point is untrue. The government is not trying to allay fears. It is trying to eradicate disease. And studies show it has fared quite well. There is a great track record of eliminating quite a few diseases, and greatly reducing the incidence of others.
* “I believe all you parents who go to the doctor to vaccinate have the best intentions in mind, and of course you don’t take your doctor’s word with certainty when he says vaccines are very safe, safer than the disease.
I believe you take the time to read disease facts. I believe you have the courage to ask your doctor to show you the vaccine package insert, so you can read the adverse side effects related to the vaccine your child is about to receive.
I believe your doctor is honest and lawfully hands that to you, the consumer. I believe you read it….I believe you discuss your concerns and take the time to make a conscious choice to allow your doctor to administer the vaccine to you dear child.” – This is the sarcasm that serves as the emotional cover for the intellectual weakness of the arguments. We vaxxers rely on the government to do the research for us. We entered this world observing the successes of vaccinating, and do not engage in the scientific study of a subject that lies outside our domain of learning and experience. That’s the role of government. Once again, we openly saw the devastation of various illnesses and how they vanished once there was widespread vaxxing.* “I’m sure you know our country was founded on the belief of freedom. I’m sure you agree that as humans we should have freedom of choice.” – Nice sales pitch. That’s why we chose to vaccinate and you chose not to. That freedom is yours. No one ever entered your home and threatened you with criminal charges over your decision to not vaccinate. I might have an ideological issue with your exercise of parental authority to deprive the baby/child of the resistance to the illnesses. But that argument against abortion was flatly rejected by the left, and has all but vanished from discussion.
* “I believe in taking responsibility for my health. I believe in giving my body what it needs so it can function the way it was designed to be. I’m aware that when disease strikes, I or my kids may be sick for a week or two, but will get over it with Hashem’s help.” – I challenge the responsibility of that statement. There are benign diseases that are hardly the threat they once were. In earlier generations, diseases that are mostly considered insignificant today were killers. Anti-biotics changed that. The development of strains of microbes that are resistant to these medications is an unfortunate side effect. That is a real issue. And I am a firm believer that אני ה’ רפאך. But that does not mean to avoid doctors, or to reject mainstream medical care. Hashem provided us with the advances in science and technology that enable us to study the human body and its functions, and to intervene in a great many ways to improve our health, well being, and longevity. But denying normal medical care is akin to staying home and not going to work since מזונותיו של אדם קצובין לו מראש השנה עד ראש השנה. That’s blatantly irresponsible. Hashem provided us with the avenues through which he will heal and cure us. False בטחון is not a mitzvah or a virtue.
* “You trust the government with certainty. I trust Hashem – my body’s designer with certainty.” – That’s a veiled accusation that vaxxers lack trust in Hashem. That is not only unfair and untrue, but a misrepresentation of what trust in Hashem means. The previous comment contains the reaction to this line of yours.
* “Can you understand that we never entered an agreement that I, who oppose vaccines will get vaccinated, to help protect you?” – We never entered into any agreement. But Torah Law is clear that causing someone else harm is completely ossur. I have no interest in your organic, vegan, gluten free, etc., diet. Those choices are yours alone, and no agreements with anyone else are needed. The situation here is the danger and risk you are inflicting on me. You may be entitled to your anti-vaxxing shittah. But you are not entitled to expose other people to disease. If there is an outbreak, your unvaccinated child is a potential threat to others, and should be restricted from those venues that place others at risk. Keeping these kids out of school is not unfair.
* “I ask you to stop with the hatred and cynicism that’s driving us further apart as humans on this planet, and as people of one nation.” – I concur 100% that hatred and cynicism should be banished. They are also threats to our health, emotional and spiritual, and even physical. However, the frank resistance to the banning of unvaccinated kids in school is without merit. Reality is that their presence provides exposure that has already sickened several hundred children, with several that are suffering from very serious conditions. You chose to raise your kids without vaccines, that’s your freedom. But imposing your freedom on others is unacceptable. We don’t hate your choice, just have a legitimate issue with imposing disease on our children. Our right to safety wins on this.
* “Do you want to set the stage for forceful laws and regulations regarding your health or religion to be imposed on you?” – Absolutely not! But just as I want our Halachic leaders and Poskim to provide me with guidance that insures my compliance with Halacha, I want the medical experts to provide me with the guidance to maintain my health. Are you opposed to warning labels on cigarettes or alcohol? If I choose to smoke, I may do so as long as it doesn’t impinge on others’ right to breathe air. I may not pump stinky second hand smoke into the room, with considerations of the foul odor and health consequences of second hand smoke. I want our government to make these laws and regulations. They employ the experts for these matters. We have Poskim to serve as the Halacha experts.
I commend your post for its delivery. I strongly disagree with many of your points. I am not looking to convince you of anything, but to be tolerant of our safety.
Can anyone propose a theoretical explanation for a causal relationship between vaccines and autism? Some of the gibberish spewed here so far makes no sense, and the anti-vaxxer voices still use anecdotal data to insist there is a cause-effect here. If there was, the research would have pounced on that to demonstrate some parts of it. I have scoured the web, plus a few experts, and no one has seen such data. I will not accept a position that there is a pharmaceutical industry that prevents research from being done. That is ludicrous. Some proof for causality please.
GH:
I have no problem disagreeing with you. But your last comment was close to brainless.
Trump proved to be an Oheiv Yisroel by being the first to recognize that what the Islamists and Palis are doing is terror (not protest). he also stopped apologizing for American support for Israel, and he cut the stupid funding that empowered and and financed terror. The Embassy issue was symbolic.
Your perception of rabbonim instructing mindless people to vote Republican speaks very poorly for your intellect.
You also parrot the baloney that the MSM (y”sh) have fabricated and repeated often enough to have you sing their jingle. Actually, Pelosi disclosed that strategy a while ago, and the clip has circulated widely. That method makes people believe foolishness enough to vote with their feet, while brains are completely disengaged. There has not been a single thing to date that documents or supports any identification of Trump as racist, supremacist, misogynist, etc. That is a concoction of the left, and their politicians and media continue to sing it. It is sad that this cannot be prosecuted in court as defamatory.
Meanwhile, the present Democrats, almost unanimously, support every form of immorality, in violation of most standards that were part of the formation of USA. their version of democracy is frightfully poor at anything that varies much from socialism. It is true that many of the local elected officials that befriend the Jewish community in NY are officially Democrats. But at the federal level, we have never encountered a party in USA that is as opposite to our values and ways of life.
I wish you happiness and success, though at the complete exclusion of what would support your political obsessions. I also wish the Dems a complete mapoloh.
Let me throw another wrench into this discussion. In today’s world, we live with guidance of science. the medical field has plenty of it. There is an”alternative” world, where there are beliefs that there are other ways to understand anatomy and physiology, and there are other approaches to take for health and medical care. The reality remains that the scientific world wins all the time, and the findings that are substantiated by scientific study are recognized as fact, and public policy is designed around this. The alternative world is ignored.
But there are other ways to market. There is word of mouth, there are scare tactics, and there are means of communicating with average people which includes internet these days. Inasmuch as we are dealing with an issue that is cast in the light of death and terrible, lifelong diseases, the tendency is to listen to these remote risks in defiance of good science. After all, if there is a 1% risk of harm, one would not take a chance.
But we are now discussing a far more serious issue. There is an entire camp of those who believe in “snake oil”, pseudo-therapies, and the like. With little to nothing to claim as scientific support, there is only one way to survive. One must claim that the studies were flawed, bought by big pharm, with fabricated evidence, etc. I suppose it is not impossible to falsify findings. I conducted research myself some years ago. I did not falsify anything or modify anything. But I do think it would have been possible. However, in big industries and with government involvement, this is highly unlikely. Most studies get replicated, and under different auspices in different locations. So the attack on the studies is not high on believability.
The attacks on science here are foolish. What the alternative movement needs to do is conduct their own studies to prove their positions. Not cry over scientific study that yielded findings that contradict their positions.
Yes, thoughts.
We have a Torah, and that is the Supreme. Yes, there are Lomdei Torah, Talmidei Chachomim, Tzaddikim, etc. We are to revere them, and follow their direction and guidance. They are to be our role models. There are numerous places in Torah where we can find the halachos of this.
When we deviate from that, and make the individual, whether Talmid Chochom, Rov, Rebbe, etc. into a deity, we have a huge problem. It’s called Avodah Zarah. And this is not a small aveiroh that one might dismiss or overlook in a context of other nicer things. It’s one of the 3 cardinal sins. Our leaders do not grant us Divine forgiveness, and they do not limit our exposure to Torah. They do not demand allegiance, and they do not have supreme power. They do not punish, nor do they control our lives.
This Lev Tumah cult is not just a wacky group. They are ovdei avodah zarah, and they need to be addressed from that perspective. The leaders need to be apprehended and either eliminated or incarcerated. Their victims need to be rescued and deprogrammed. This cult needs to be eliminated, and Klal Yisroel should have zero tolerance for stuff like this. This is not a faction of Klal Yisroel, but a cancerous enemy of Torah Judaism. The role of authorities here is permissible because of the extremes of abuse that they commit. May we be zocheh to see this form of apikorsus expunged from Klal Yisroel.
Aside from my opinions about vaccination, I remain perplexed by the dialogue here. nearly all studies anyone cites are correlational, and the drive to interpret these relationships as causal is strong but pathological. It is recognized that 99.9% of all people that die in United States have eaten pickles? Is there a relationship? Is correlational data indicative of anything? It is there support for a hypothesis of a causal relationship?
It boils down to a simple thing. Data against vaxxing is poor, to a great degree unscientific, and is only, at best, correlational. One can designate a conclusion beforehand, then interpret data to fit that agenda, and voila, we have “studies” to support our position. Sorry, but that is “junk science”. I suggest we revisit the scientific method, and then examine studies to see what they mean.
Supporting them is like giving money to the Palestinians. It gets hocked by the leadership, and they grab it for themselves and their own evil intentions. It doesn’t reach anyone there who is hungry. Instead of providing them money, we need to support a rescue mission in which the leaders are either murdered or captured. This avodah zarah cult must be eliminated. That means the victims rescued, and the perpetrators either turned into carcasses or locked up for life. It is borderline apikorsus to consider this a faction of Yiddishkeit. It is blatant avodah zarah, and this requires battle.
Because harassment will not provide immunity or cure any diseases. Yes, anti-vaxxers present a huge problem. But harassing them does not serve as solution. I am all in favor of all steps taken to prevent exposure, to provide vaccinations, etc. Ban when needed. Harassment does nothing except whet the appetite of those who want to take revenge. That is not any more acceptable as being irresponsible with children’s and public health.
Neville:
I am operating under the experience of watching rabbonim talking through their hats about many subjects they have never studied or experienced. I am not using a broad brush. There are many who do consult. But there are plenty who do not. I have been consulting with many over the years. It’s a mixed bag.
Winnie:
Many of us know rabbonim, dayanim, and poskim. We also know rebbes, roshei yeshivos, and others. It is not my place to assess them, nor to grade them in any ranking order. I oppose the use of age or the percentage of white in the beard as an indication of one’s knowledge. Even among this listing above, there are those with particular expertise in Hilchos Shabbos, others in Mikvaos, others in dealing with medical shailos, etc. You get my point. Your average rov of a shul might do quite well to deliver divrei Torah on the parsha, speak at simchos (or ch”v levayos), and give a great Daf Yomi. That is not a qualifier to guide problems in shalom bayis, pasken shailos in mikvaos, or pasken a shailoh about a possible safrus problem in a Sefer Torah. As in a medical career, where there is core knowledge, there is the specializing in many different areas, and a good doctor refers anything outside of his domain to experts.
Again, I am pointing to the assumption that every “gadol” is a jack of all trades. We are privy to hundreds of anecdotes of some truly great leaders who refused to intervene in areas outside their expertise. Rav Avigdor Miller ZT”L was vocal about a great many areas. But he also deferred many questions to others. That’s only one example of many. We misuse our gedolim. And some rabbonim today assume they know much about certain specialties where they do not.
One of the issues here is a dispute about just what Daas Torah is, and what it means to subscribe to it as a way of Torah life. Perhaps my opinion is unique, but here goes.
What I believe was a source for Daas Torah was the vast knowledge that was possessed by Torah leaders. Without secular sources for knowledge (even though יש חכמה בגוים) they were skilled and expert in subjects besides a difficult Tosafos or Rambam. They possessed a “sixth” sense, what we might categorize in the realm of Ruach Hakodesh, that enabled them to render opinions about various subject matters. And even these giants had no problem responding top posed questions declining to resolve the presented problem. “I don’t know” or “I’m unable to help” were responses that were not foreign to them, despite their erudition in Torah and lives of kedusha.
Today’s world is vastly different. We treat the possession of Torah knowledge as Ruach Hakodesh, and a position as a Rosh Yeshiva, Rebbe, elderly Talmid Chochom, or mekubal as the tell-all answer that is defined as Daas Torah. I intend no disrespect, but this assumption is not necessarily true. I personally turn to just these types of people to pose questions, so I do not minimize them or their ideas. But completing Shas does not qualify one to repair an automobile engine, nor does it give someone the knowledge to give medical advice. In fact, numerous cycles of Daf Yomi do not authorize one to pasken shailos on a great many areas in halacha, all of which require special study and internship (שימוש). So when young couples in crisis turn to a Rosh Yeshiva or Rosh Kollel for advice, or when parents with a struggling teen consult their Rav, are they able to be confident that they are being guided correctly? Do we assume that possession of Torah data equals Daas Torah, and that this is the best ultimate advice to follow? Should we also accept that when a young Rosh Yeshiva ascends to fill his father’s position and dons the corresponding levush that he has also been Divinely endowed with the שימוש to become expert in areas he has not studied or trained?
While Daas Torah deserves immense respect, those who are approached as representing Daas Torah need to be keenly aware and brutally honest about the range and limitations of their knowledge and experience. Until these Chachomim are able to handle their tafkid with true awareness of their expertise, they should reject those problems and questions that are out of their domain, and refer to others when they can.
Anytime the talk of Daas Torah gets raised here in the CR, there will be needless debate because of the confusion just described. It’s not about MO or other labels.
The Shpoler Zaide had a chossid whose parnosoh was owning and tending a bar. He approached the Rebbe with a complaint. “I spend my day in the company of the customers, who are at various levels of intoxication, who are speaking about the worst subjects with the worst vocabulary. I feel this detracts from my Avodas Hashem.” The Shpoler Zaide responded, “So you prefer wearing the levush of a rebbe, sitting all day in a room full of seforim, and occupying your day with only Torah and davening? That is the Avodah of a Malach. HKB”H placed you where you are because he wants you to perform mitzvos in the environment where you are.”
It is one thing to bring on nisyonos. It is another to lock one’s children in a box. The latter, in the extreme, is quite dangerous. One will eventually emerge from that box and encounter the world. There will not be the needed immunity to withstand challenges, of which there will be plenty.
There is another reality. The yetzer horah takes no vacations. If it cannot expose our children to the schmutz of the world via internet and technology, he will simply find another way. There is an important aspect of סור מרע, where we give our best to block ourselves from exposure to toxicity. But equally as important is the עשה טוב, where we fill our space with kedusha that repels the influence of the yetzer horah. Sadly, we have reduced so much of our Avodas Hashem to perfunctory performances, theatrical shows, and efforts to impress others. I heard someone on Sukkos bemoaning the inability of leaving a price tag hanging from his esrog so that he could advertise to all how much he paid for it. For whom did he spend to fulfill the mitzvah?
No way is wrong or right. It is the matching of the derech to the individual, and the moderation that makes the difference. It becomes bullyish to dictate these details or standards for the public.
Together with the liberal wave is the trashing of things that we hold near and dear – moral values. The garbage that will result from this will affect every Yid. We still have tefilos that HKB”H should direct the operations of government – לב מלך ושרים ביד ה.
A Yeshiva is a medium to provide chinuch to our children. Chinuch does not mean control, nor does it mean discipline. I would expect that a yeshiva prepares a child for a lifetine of Avodas Hashem and Ahavas Hashem. Anything else cannot be considered chinuch. Punishments are not chinuch. they are control. A bit of that is required in a system that places too many talmidim under the responsibility of a single rebbe or teacher. But when it becomes the main thing, there is a disaster.
A true rebbe is described in Chazal quite often, and is seldom detected in today’s yeshivos. Here are examples:
המלמד בן חבירו תורה כאילו ילדו. The meforshim are nearly unanimous in explaining this as a responsibility, not a merit. Does the rebbe love the talmid as a father would love a child? This does not mean that any given yeshiva should have one rebbe who fits this. It is a requirement of every single rebbe. One incapable if this is disqualified.
יהי כבוד תלמידך חביב עליך כשלך. This Mishna is not less precious than any other. Yet, the dignity of the talmid is seldom a consideration. I have witnessed rampant shaming and degrading of talmidim. This is plainly ossur. A rebbe incapable of fulfilling the mandate of this mishna should seek another career.
The image of a yeshiva is not unimportant, nor is its financial stability. Talmidim, by definition, are minors. It is expected that the behavior of the masses will never achieve perfection. As soon as a yeshiva begins to address their reputation, we begin to witness a distraction to the mission. What’s the mission? Just listen to how they describe the yeshiva as a public institution that promotes Torah and Yiras Shomayim and accomplishes so much for Klal Yisroel. Housing hundreds of talmidim is not the yardstick for being a public asset. Refraining from rejecting talmidim is.
Rules in yeshiva are sadly designed for the convenience of the yeshiva, not the benefit of the talmidim. There must be decorum, and hefkeirus and chaos are most destructive. But a serious, self-critical assessment must be made if the true mission is the guide.
Financial matters relate to the yeshiva office and budget, not the individual talmid. Failure to keep tuition balances up to date are sometimes poor money management by parents, who might prioritize other expenses to those of their kids’ chinuch. More often, it is the result of hardship. There are yeshivos that work with parents and assist them in meeting their obligations. This includes negotiating the contracts, the schedule for payments, and even volunteering to assist the yeshiva in other functions to offset some of the obligations. Many don’t, and simply wield the stick of denying admission to the building because of outstanding tuition balances. This is horribly destructive, and is antithetical to several of the values that are part of the mission of chinuch. This should not be taken to minimize the pressures of the yeshiva to meet its obligations, bills, wages, etc. But there are ways. The rejection of a talmid is tantamount to murder. The parent who fails to pay tuition might be faulted, but the innocent child becomes the victim. That’s unacceptable.
I can go on and on. But I think some of the issues here point to what is messed up. And I cannot find the glimmer of hope, save that of Moshiach, who will bring about an upheaval of everything. במהרה בימינו.
Time4Truth & Philo:
“many people are in pain, that gives no excuse to abandon Yiddishkeit”
We’re not excusing anything. I do not condone abandoning Torah and Mitzvos. I am understanding it in its context, and wish I could do more to help bring the afflicted person back to the derech. But let’s reverse the dynamic here. Just what do you intend to pronounce by holding the OTD person responsible? I never said he is not responsible for what he is doing. However, his judgment was not delegated to me, and it is not my role to “attack” him for this. I would not want younger people to see him as a role model, I would be horrified if he brought treif or chilul Shabbos into my home (or anyone else’s). Do you expect me to wish him dead? Do you seek to have the community impose punishments on him? What is your expectation of me?
It is not about excusing. It is about understanding. And if either of you have been involved with the kiruv kerovim work as you claim, you should understand well what I mean. There is an obligation of rebuke – completely dependent on the likelihood of a positive outcome. Should an observer be happy or indifferent when seeing someone OTD? I never said that. I am saddened by it.
As for the משומד, we are instructed by Chazal how to treat him. If HKB”H sees this as emotional illness rather than rishus, that’s for Him to handle. There is no reference in Torah to treat the OTD person with disdain. There is an obligation to help him return.
Time4Truth:
Not any deeper, and I will never succumb to walking it back. Sorry, but a neshomoh is too precious to discard.
Now, let me disclose that I have been working directly with OTD kids for many years. I know many, have helped many, and have been connected to many others who work with them. The Torah attitude to שמד is to sit shiva and disassociate from them. Not the person who is a baal aveiroh. There is a huge movement of kiruv rechokim, and there is a far smaller movement of kiruv kerovim. And so many have returned to shmiras mitzvos, established themselves as members of the community, and have families that are a source of pride and nachas to their families, Klal Yisroel, and HKB”H. They reacted to events and situations in their life, they had their nisyonos, just as we have ours. I cannot judge them, only recognize that they are experiencing something tragic, whether it is the negativity of what they underwent, or whether it is the poor choices they made in reaction. If you query these kids, they are not running away from Hashem. They are escaping the torture of their experience with us adults, and this is the way they chose. I am not justifying their poor choices. I am looking inside them. When I can see their pain, when I can feel their anguish, when I can feel their loneliness, I achieve a place where I can reach out and connect. When I cannot get into that space, I am not obligated to do anything, and that is not the Ramban’s “Arur”. Refer to Mesilas Yesharim (Perek 20) regarding the mitzvah of הוכח תוכיח.
Have you ever spoken to one of these kiruv kerovim professionals? Try it. Learn something. These are troubled kids, not bad ones. They are usually harmless, though self-destructive. Allowing them to encounter the consequences of criminal behavior is part of their growth. I am not the one who wants them to rot in jail. But to learn a lesson is a good thing. Now, we must ask, does that empower us to punish? My answer is simple. When we possess the access the all the relevant data, we can do that. And knowing whether this is a weakness of character and spirit is part of the calculation. We repeated that message countless times in our tefilos on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. The tefiloh written by Reb Elimelech to recite daily before davening details this quite well, so you can look in a siddur without the need to dig out the machzorim.
Now, I won’t backtrack. Every word I said was sacred and correct al pi Torah.
Our generation has achieved an ultimate in our collective growth. We have gravitated toward the downsizing of our own saichel and relegated it to the memory and power of our cell phones. Smart phones for stupid people.
P.S. I own a smartphone that has been crippled at my choice. I have limited needs for certain features, and blocked all others. I prefer being smart to carrying around my brains in my pocket.
Time4Truth:
I would have expected enough literacy to understand what I wrote. I guess I need to explain.
” if a OTD kid gets involved in crime, I advocate the full brunt of the law” why??
OTD is not a crime. but crime is. Kiruv people, rabbonim, therapists, etc. are not equipped to deal with this. Law enforcement is. If an OTD person steals, they should face the consequences of their actions. It is of no benefit to prevent this. Kids don’t learn from it, and it does not protect anyone’s safety.
” There is a major difference between בין אדם למקום and בין אדם לחבירו.”
” The escaping from religion because .. is not evil” liberal corruptness by another name.I have no idea what part of this is too difficult to understand. Nothing corrupt here, and nothing liberal. Are you suggesting that someone who is not putting on tefillin or keeping Shabbos merits your punishments? Do you have any clue what these kids are experiencing, or are you looking for points? I am not excusing their behavior, and I am not accepting it. What they do harm other people is our issue. Hashem did not empower you to exact “revenge” on His behalf. He manages this world quite well without your help or advice. I am not liberal at all. Actually, I am just being realistic, and aware of my role and responsibility.
“Do not confuse בין אדם למקום with בין אדם לחבירו.” why??
Because one is my business, and the other is not. If you have difficulty understanding this, I suggest you visit a sefer or two and learn something. There are many psukim that address this, and there is quite a bit throughout Shas. If you prefer, try some sifrei mussar.
philo:
Murderers are expressly harming others. Not so for OTD. They are self-destructive. No, it’s not good, and behaviors are not being dismissed or excused. And if a OTD kid gets involved in crime, I advocate the full brunt of the law. Yes, I have advised using police to counter threats and damaging behavior. But you are confusing a huge issue here. There is a major difference between בין אדם למקום and בין אדם לחבירו. Day and night. I advocate toughness on any form of crime, be it shoplifting, DUI, drug dealing, etc. If an OTD kid chooses ch”v to stop putting on tefillin or observing Shabbos, it is sad, but not my business. To the degree I might possess skills to attract him back to shmiras mitzvos, I have the obligation of ערבות to return to HKB”H one of his flock that strayed. Until then, HKB”H did not appoint me as his police officer or prosecutor to intervene. And the OTD will sooner follow the kiruv that is appropriate for him sooner than the sticks and stones that others imply are needed.
No liberal corruptness for me. I recognize that crime is evil and requires appropriate intervention. The escaping from religion because of the myriad of negative experience is not evil, despite being sad and painful for others. Law enforcement, both the arrest and incarceration, do not rehabilitate the criminal. At best, they protect society from recurring crime. There might be an outcome of deterrence. That is not the intended result of intervention with an OTD kid. We want the kid to return to יהדות with the passion and determination that were our aspirations for him in the first place. Yes, that is an uphill battle. No, most people do not know how to accomplish that. Certainly not be criminalizing the aveiros. We should all achieve Ahavas Hashem – the very first mitzvah that gets coupled with קבלת עול מלכות שמים that we recite several times a day. No one ever succeeded in achieving that via punishment or other negative forms of treatment.
Do not confuse בין אדם למקום with בין אדם לחבירו.
Joseph:
Sorry, it is not about rishus. You know that, and are making that statement to irritate others.
philo:
It falls in the psychological realm, and it is not about being evil. You know that. When it is your kid ch”v, your eyes are more open. Sit shiva on an OTD kid? Not according to halacha. and taavah is a mental health issue. I am not applying diagnostic labels to it. Lastly, you try to pin 100% of responsibility for OTD on the kid. Have you ignored the abuse, neglect, and rejection that was inflicted on the kid? There are many people who get the respect as mechanchim etc. who will have serious din vecheshbon for the abusive impact they had on their talmidim. And I would never defend those that embarrass and shame talmidim and calling it the mitzvah of chinuch. This form of abuse ranks high among the elements that push someone OTD.
DaMoshe:
Conversion is unrelated to OTD. The person converting is doing so for ideological and intellectual reasons, and has a serious problem with belief. The OTD is escaping pain and suffering, and is involved in reacting emotionally to events and situations of his life. The many OTD kids I know have never wavered in their belief or emunoh. They are on an emotional course of escape, angry, rejected, with poor choices of how to respond to these internal and external issues. They do not progress to conversion as a next step.
Rewording this question into its true situations, “Which is worse, to be evil or to be sick?” Converting is שמד, and this is a question of guilt or innocence. OTD is not evil. It is a manifestation of someone coping with internal conflict (sometimes even external conflict) and making bad choices. While some who are OTD engage in criminal behavior, requiring the involvement of law enforcement, the OTD piece of the pie belongs in the realm of mental health. Pose this matter to anyone with experience dealing with at-risk and OTD issues, and you will find universal agreement on this.
This discussion is purely theoretical. So far, we can identify certain midos that are common to various relationships, and can be seen in the relationship to a spouse as well as children. There are many other midos that do not overlap. These are far more difficult to predict until one gets there. And it was noted that babies do not come with an instruction manual. Additionally, learning what the midos of another are is fairly difficult. We assume that we can make an assessment, and use others to judge when we collect info on a prospective shidduch. We also assume we can study the boy or girl when dating. But these are all flawed. Our true ability to assess is generally poor. The one under scrutiny will present themselves as they want you to see them – often irrelevant to their real self.
Babies bring the contrasts of joy and challenge. The novelty is a plus, and when they begin to exhibit the cute stuff we all crave, we are overjoyed. But they come with their package of difficulties, sleeping, health issues, etc. They tie one down and restrict much. We might have managed many relational things without kids. How will our psyche cope with new limitations? Predictable? Likely not.
How about fathers who are separated or divorced? Do they make good fathers? Usually yes. Husbands? Depends who you ask.
Just some thoughts.
Saw it in the sefer מגדל עוז from the יעב”ץ
This sefer has been the subject of controversy. It is authentic?
If I have relatives in Eretz Yisroel, England, and at least one other country who know me, does that make me famous? If not, what do I need to do to qualify to be world famous.
Joseph:
You wrote: “Why if divorced should a parent be forced to pay for that if he/she wouldn’t have been had the parents remained married to each other?”
Excellent question.
When this child will need funding for college and legal expenses, the divorced parents will play hot potato. They might be agreeable and on the same page that the expenses should be covered. But each will volley the burden to the other. And without an agreement, it will never end. The married parents (assuming a healthy relationship) who will agree have joint funds, and will make their decision on feasibility, not whether they agreed only if the other could pick up the tab. It is not about making a chiddush for divorced parents. It is about preventing a problem for the kid pursuing his career and family.
Joseph:
You are misunderstanding me. I still vote in favor of shalom bayis, and making a sincere effort to reconcile. I am not pro-divorce. Yet, many, many cases of marriages that are long since dead due to abuse or infidelity encounter the “shalom bayis” claim. These are not at all based on halacha, and the need to proceed with the get is recognized by rabbonim and dayanim universally. All that happens is that the process gets delayed. I do not have any hesitation in cases where there is a chance, even remote, of reconciliation. But it is easily exploited as another version of abuse. Ask around by dayanim with experience. They have all observed this, and all will recognize the tactic. Halacha does not protect this, and there is no siman in Shulchan Aruch that supports the exploitation of halacha to continue abuse.
Joseph:
I strongly disagree. The “Shalom Bayis” tactic is not about wanting to reconcile a marriage. It is more often a delay and refusal tactic. The reality is that there are some marriages that can be saved, and should be. I do not challenge the BD for paying attention to this claim. But the end result is that most of these cases have already failed at numerous efforts, and that this claim is unrelated to a true desire to reconcile. I speak from considerable experience.
As for the reference to the halachic pre-nup, I happen to be in the know. The RCA pre-nup has huge halachic questions, and the poskim ruled against for good reason. What you may not know is that there have been other efforts to develop something that the mainstream poskim can accept, and that quite a number of them have already approved it. It is not yet being rolled out to the public, but it has gotten past a surprising number of well recognized poskim. You may reserve your comments on this for the information about what comprises this and the opinions of the poskim that will be released to the public in due time. My reference was the reason for having a pre-nup, not any trace of accepting the existing RCA document. The proposed pre-nup does not cause Get-Meusa, as already concluded by renowned poskim. I apologize if you thought I stood in approval of the RCA version.
CTL:
Involving a Rav or BD before the civil divorce is common practice. The issue otherwise is the arkaos question. I assume that your approach does not minimize or negate the BD process at all, and involves resolution of the affairs via negotiation rather than litigation. Under this scenario, I don’t question the process you use, but understand it as just an alternative.
In reality, few cases get to actual litigation (I refer to NY), and end up being negotiated with lawyers and toanim, etc. I have yet to encounter a BD that does not ask whether there has been an attempt at professional intervention, and in the absence would not proceed until such an effort was undertaken. In fact, a classic delay tactic used by either spouse is to block efforts at proceeding to a get by claiming to want “shalom bayis”. It is common, and occurs even in cases of severe abuse and infidelity (and is more often than not the tactic of the culprit). The concept of a halachic pre-nup is to avoid such charades.
yitzchokm:
Your sarcasm does not reflect much intellect, just a poor effort at humor. It’s not about Dr. Spock feel good stuff. It’s about the great guidance of our Chachomim how to raise children. And the failures to follow their guidance are extreme. Sadly, the yeshivos that follow their directions are few and far between. That’s not what they say in their fundraising and publicity efforts.
Divorce is always a choice. And the broad brush that this is the favorite approach of therapists is fictional. Rather, there is always an effort to reconcile a marriage that has even minimal potential. Talk to some therapists, and then address the issue. You are pushing agendas that have nothing to do with fact. That is frankly foolish. The best environment for raising children consists of several elements. The spiritual is one. The harmonious one is another. There are kids who are resilient, and manage well in life despite difficult pasts. Not all victims of abuse are scarred for life. Not all children of divorced homes are damaged goods. Does that suggest to promote or tolerate abuse or divorced? Is this the senselessness that supports your sarcasm?
There is unfair and undue stigma to divorce, and yeshivos are part of it. They can serve well as part of the solution, but are often part of the problem. No, divorce is not good. Many times, it is the healthier alternative to a home of constant strife, divisiveness, and chaos. And stop knocking professionals. There are rotten apples in that barrel, as in any other group of people. But on the whole, they can do much to help people make rational decisions in their lives, and reach decisions with responsibility, not knee jerk reactions. They can help the couples who do divorce do so without the ugly conflicts that destroy children (if their directions would only be followed).
Time:
There have been therapists whose offhanded response to a marital problem is to dismiss the option of reconciliation with not as much as a wave of the hand. These are very exceptional. The many therapists I know would never consider that, and do not actually recommend or push divorce. You might claim they are do not push against it, but to say they advocate it is untrue.
Next, the Torah says ערות דבר, and there is discussion among Tano’im what this means. There is no specification in Chumash, and Poskim are also not universal on what they say are grounds. That’s all I stated with that.
Joseph:
I am not complimentary to our heilige yeshivos. I see firsthand what they are doing, and there is more than a lot to be desired. It seems your “on the derech” is determined by the camera. Internally, the bulk of the graduates of the heilige yeshivos are far weaker than they would have been a few generations ago. And, no, it’s not because of the internet. The Chareidi is doing a great job if we look at the pictures. But, רחמנא ליבא בעי, and here we have failed to fulfill our mandate. When we show this objectively to the chinuch world, they dismiss this by claiming that the responsibility to imbue the children with a “brenn” for Yiddishkeit belongs to the parents. Sorry, but punting that is not okay. Sure, parents must do more. But during the yeshiva day, the hanhalah are the loco parentis, not the boot camp guards or instructors.
Now, when they fail to move in to at least partially compensate for the missing parent in the child’s life, they are derelict in their duty.
yitzchokm:
You seem to have amassed a rather substantial number of weird ideas and spewed them into the dialogue here in the CR. I wonder how you have the gall to continue this foolishness without shame.
One: You wrote: “Did you ever stop to think that the cookie cutter schools pushed 98% of the people to stay on the derech? Overall we’re a resounding success.” That’s a lot of hooey, and you know it. There are not 98% on the derech. You would have a major struggle with explaining what “on the derech” means, as no one truly knows what the “derech” is. If you are referring to manner of attire, stop right there. I know many, many people who dress the part, black hat, yeshivishe or chassidishe levush, and are simply faking it for the world. Your 98% number shrinks by much. Are you aware that of all chuppahs in Brooklyn, the estimates from rabbonim who know inside stories claim that about 4% of them involve one or both – chosson and/or kallah who are no longer Sho,er Shabbos? Our yeshivos are a resounding failure in promoting the Ahavas Hashem and Ahavas Hatorah that is a requisite of chinuch. Our kids get through the system believing that they “have to learn”, not that they want to learn. Those that “want” are pleasing others’ demands on them, not their personal desires. The rules and chinuch patterns have little resemblance to what the Chachomim instructed, and the concept of חנוך לנער על פי דרכו is all but obsolete in the cookie cutter system. We do far better at producing chassidishe and yeshivishe robots than budding Ovdei Hashem.
Two: You wrote: “Most divorced families are not due to infidelity or physical abuse. As long as both spouses are marriageable material, they should remain married.” Pardon, but your ignorance is showing. There are many other conditions and situations that render marriage nonviable. The Torah does not refer to either physical abuse or infidelity as basis for terminating a marriage. True, two spouses who want a marriage to work can often be helped to achieve that. But often, one is too enraged and hurt, and the work to reconcile requires two people. Your rush to generalize is not flattering to you, and you should first go get some experience in the field before spouting these statements.
No one believes that divorce is a good thing. It is the way to go as as the lesser of the evils. I have met many lay people who are apt to push for ending a marriage. That is not the case for the overwhelming majority of rabbonim, batei din, therapists, or other professionals. Rather, these people are apt to seek reconciliation or entertain the desire for “shalom bayis” of one spouse when there is no justification to maintain a failed marriage.
laskern:
I sympathize with matter of chilul Hashem. However, that is not the real issue here. The sakanah involved is the real issue, and discussion about the percentages of tragedies from committing this offense are wasted. Danger with small and otherwise insignificant numbers is danger, and halacha states this frequently. One is mechalel Shabbos on a sofeik sakanah. The spiritual issues are not our business here. The practical safety ones are. I would advocate reporting such violations immediately, and the fact that the fool gets a ticket should not be mesira.
Is there a thread titled “Black Hats Matter”?
The definition of “incorrigible” is the inability to be corrected. Long before a response to this question is deserved, there must be something convincing that we are dealing with a truly “incorrigible” child. There are children that can be difficult, and these difficulties can vary among a wide spectrum of possibilities. But to determine that someone is hopeless is a problem. Who paskens this? A frustrated parent or rebbe is hardly qualified to apply such a finalistic label.
For many generations, the commonly available siddurim in both Ashkenaz and Sfard were created by publishers. The true Sephardic nuschaos are far more reliable as coming from a reputable source, but those in the Ashkenazic realm, including the contemporary Ashkenaz and Sfard lack this feature. There are siddurim that are based on kabala from the Ari Zal, and these also include many differences. Ultimately, the base siddur for all of these Ashkenazic nuschaos is the Roedelheim Siddur that was published by Rav Volf Heidenheim (talmid of Rav Nosson Adler, and chaver to the Chasam Sofer). he published his siddur 8 times, with modifications in each subsequent edition. It was probably republished after his death, but i don’t know if there were changes.
Nusach is a complex issue, and there are many, many nushchaos, with variations in many of them. It is not uncommon for combinations between features of one nusach and those of another, with such traditions occurring in the Litvishe velt just as in the Chassidishe velt.