TLIK:

“nearly all of the poskim that are the leaders of our generation, are stating clearly that the drunkeness that is involved in so much danger (alcohol poisoning, accidents, getting rowdy and fighting, drunk driving etc.) is not the preferred way to go”

Name them.

TCG:

1) Care to name this Rov?

2) Does he hold there is no maylah in fulfilling shitah the Shulchan Oruch and rov Rishonim?

Yes, there should be a book called “The Bais Yaakov System: The Root of all Evil”. After all, everyone knows that its the systems, particularly the right-wing systems, that cause all of the problems. Heck, we just outlaw any and all systems. That should solve all of our problems.

rebdoniel:

True, alcohol is not usually suggested by Judaisim (although I wouldn’t go so far as to say that it’s “frowned upon”; that’s Christianity), but on Purim there is clearly a chiyuv to drink. THere are many shittos as to how to best be mekayem this this chiyuv, but you cannot just pretend that the chiyuv doesn’t exist.

The little I know:

Please explain how one would go about “smelling” wine until they do not know the difference between boruch Mordechai and uror haman.

“Thus, it becomes offensive when people argue that getting drunk is a “mitzvah”… Drinking? Yes. Getting drunk? Absolutely no.”

Seeing as the Gemora, Rambam, Tor, and Shulchan Oruch are all on the list of those who “offend” you, perhaps you should change your sensibilities. You cannot simply dismiss a very real and legitimate shitah, held by many prominent poskim, because you don’t like it.

“Rav Shteinman shlit”a just made a public statement against heavy drinking.”

Could you provide a link?

“those who advocate shikrus have disposed of the Mishna Berura”

…and instead, were machmir like the Shulchan Oruch. Again, please do not pretend that a halcahic shitah doesn’t exist just because you don’t like it.

benignuman:

The problem with that cheshbon is that the hesder yeshiva bochrim would not be the only ones getting shorter stints in the army; sow would the chilonim. So you would still be taking time spent learning by the Charaidim and transferring it to the chilonim, who will probably not spend it learning Torah.

zahavasdad:

All that proves is that the chilonim still don’t like us. No big shocker there.

tahini:

The arrogance of those thinking they are not meant to serve because they protect Yiddishkeit with their learning and observance is breathtaking. There are plenty of soldiers who keep mitzvot and do their army service, or if they wish opt out and do a communal voluntary posting instead.

This has absolutely nothing to do with arrogance and everything to do with halacha. One is not supposed to stop learning Torah to fulfill a mitza she’efshar laasos al yiday acharim, a mitzva that will be done by somebody else. Perhaps you should do a little more research before you start hurling around insults.

Speak to Israeli social workers about child abuse or domestic violence in places like meah shearin and they will tell of you a community that will riot against the police or medical crews, but not stop internal suffering amongst their own weakest and most vulnerable.

Ah; insults, loshon hara/motzei sheim ra, and disparaging generalizations. Sinas chinom at its best.

I cannot understand the concept of those engaged in Torah learning being disengaged from the world around them

Well, let me try to explain it to you. The theory is that one who does nothing except for learn Torah, will by definition be learning more than somebody who is also doing something else. Crazy, I know.

Fear of breaking away with traditions which are in themselves only recent minhagim dominate the charedi rabbonim, who politically are busy using imagined slights against Gadolim to canvass opinion against the State as well as each other.

So bashing the Charaidim in general isn’t enough for you? You feel the need to go disparage their Rabbonim too?

Israel is a young new country and needs all hands on deck to make things work.

That is simply not true. The Israeli Army does not want or need the Charaidim to serve; they have said so themselves.

Right now Satmar are campaining in Israel against the elections, people here in the CR are saying that Satmar are taking nothing from the State. Well who is paying for the policing and security bill for this grand show against the evil zionists?

Actually, they hired private security.

Miriam:

Why is the child of a Haredi more precious than a child of any other Israeli?

Nobody besides you has claimed anything remotely like that.

Learning is very important and so is serving.

True. Now, let’s try to figure out how can get the most of both: If we were to require the Charaidim to serve in the army, it result in less learning and no additional serving (the chillonim would simply have to spend less time enlisted). However, if we do not draft the Charaidim we will end up with more learning, and the same amount of people serving in the army.

mdd:

Kanoi, theconflict was brought by the creation of the Medinah, but so was the flow of cash to the Yeshivos. It is very crooked to accept and use only those aspects of the Medinah that are beneficial.

Again, the Charaidim who refuse to serve in the army at all are the same ones who do not take any government funds. There is no hypocrisy here.

benignuman

However, the Chareidim (other than those in Nachal Hacharedi) are not risking their lives.

Neither are the generals; but without them, the army would be an absolute disaster.

Health:

you don’t have a Frum upbringing, only a MO one.

That’s disgusting.

Avi K:

One must stop learning to do the mitzvos of tefillin and davening because they are ei efsher laasos al yisay acharim; serving in the army is not.

As for “those who are registered in yeshivot and kolelim but are not exactly learning every second”, somehow I don’t think it’s realistic to have them serve in the army only during whatever time they may be wasting. Therefore, having them serve in the army is still a problem of bittul Torah.

benignuman:

Again, there is no mitzva for the Charaidim to stop learning in order to protect their fellow Jews if the chilonim are able to do it just fine by themselves.

mdd:

akuperma’s point is actually quite a good one. Before 1948, when Arabs had no quarrel with us, we all lived together in relative peace and prosperity (not only in Israel, but all across the Arab lands). The problems began when the Zionists decided to create a state in the Arab lands, and the Arabs didn’t take too kindly to it. Therefore the argument could be made that the Israeli army is merely taking care of a problem that they themselves created, and should not be demanding the Charaidim’s help.

dveykus613:

+1

When I read PBA’s comment on the mesirah thread I literally burst out laughing. Yes, it is funny. Offensive, disgusting, horrible, etc. but still very funny.

lesschumras:

Find me somebody half as accepted as the Baal Shem Tov who advocates not doing metzitzah bi’peh and we’ll talk.

Toi:

“the obtuseness of this thread is astounding. the biggest rabbis say yes, the left-leaning westernized clergy-dudes say no, and all of a sudden the frumme’ become reshaim.”

What do you mean, “all of a sudden”? The frummies have always been (and always will be) the reshaim.

I try to hold doors open for anyone of any gender, religion or race, and I simply do not find that frum people are half as obnoxious as they’re being made out to be in this thread. Maybe I bump into completely different people than everyone else here.

apushatayid: +1

Wolf:

“Even if you subscribe to the opinion that one should get drunk on Purim, it’s only to the point of ad d’lo yada. There is no mitzvah to keep drinking to the point of getting physically sick or being unable to stand or perform any of the other mitzvos that need to be performed (such as davening Ma’ariv, for example).”

The most pashut pshat of ad di’lo yadah is to drink until you know absolutely nothing. Getting physically sick and being unable to stand would seem to be a lesser level of drunkenness than that, so one would usually need to go through these stages before becoming drunk to the point where they do not know the difference between boruch Mordechai and arur Haman.

Now, there are certainly Poskim who define the chiyuv of ad di’lo yadah differently; however, there are many (TOr, HSulchan Oruch, etc) who hold this way.

“I am proud of the fact that I have never been drunk in my life — and that includes Purim.”

And I am proud of the fact that I have rarely been sober on Purim.

stuck:

“both shittas of psak halacha on ad dlo yoda are fully legit. So no one should be knocking the other shitta. So if ones shitta l’halacha is that one must get blind drunk on Purim, accept that.”

+1

PLONIALMONI4:

“I am also sure that you would not disagree with me that we both wish that people would focus on being as diligent in keeping the halachos of lashon hara, financial honesty and not speking during davening as they are in observing this once a year event.”

True. However, there is one rather large difference; there is nobody (to the best of my limited knowledge) who not only denies but actually advocates against keeping the halachos of loshon hara, genievah, etc. while there are plenty of people who seem to feel perfectly comfortable denying and advocating against the chiyuv of drinking on Purim.

(Again, there is some argument as to how far this chiyuv goes, but to pretend it doesn’t exist (or that there isn’t a legitimate halachic basis for getting very, very drunk) is just flat out wrong.)

Sam2:

“So many people nowadays are so Makpid on everything the Mishnah B’rurah says. They are Choshesh for a Da’as Yachid in the Achronim and consider people who don’t follow the M”B’s Eitzos Tovos as not being Medakdek in Mitzvos. So why are people so quick to dismiss the M”B here and say that the other Derech of P’sak is just as legitimate?”

The difference is that these people are makpid on the Mishnah Brurah, not meikel on it. And this shittah of the Mishnah Brurah is certainly a kulah.

(Not that that makes it any less of a legitimate shitah, only that you cannot fault those who are “Makpid on everything the Mishnah B’rurah says” (makpid being the key word) for not relying on the kulah of the M”B here.)