Forum Replies Created
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GAW:
“Seriously, Lapid stood for stopping funds to the Charaidim. Anything short of that (and looking like he is kow-towing to them) would be going against his word. He did not campaign on stopping funding to Meretz”
So Lapid wasn’t particularly excluding the Chareidim because… he had campaigned on excluding them.
Hhm.
“Besides, if the Charaidim would agree to what the coalition has decided, I have a feeling that they would be “let in”
Yeah, if the Chareidim gave up on everything that makes them Chareidim, Lapid would think about letting them in. So he has no problem with the Chareidim, as long as they stop being Chareidim.
LF:
It wasn’t any harder to get in to America then it was to get into Israel post-WW2. How do you think half of today’s Jewish population ended up in the USA?
“You are missing the point: i think it would have given the Jews a place to run to.”
And be ch”v massacred in. The IDF would never have been able to stop the Nazis. So what would it have helped?
“In fact the Jews that were in Eretz Yisroel weren’t harmed by the Nazis.”
Only because there weren’t enough of them for the Nazis to make it a high priority (although even so, they came extraordinary close). If there would have been a Jewish State, the Nazis would have been much more keen on ch”v conquering and annihilating it.
“Or do you only believe the Arabs who used the pretext that they hate Jews because of Zionism?”
Forget what the Arabs say; look at what they do. For thousands of years our Sefardi brethren coexisted with the Arabs in relative peace and prosperity (particularly when compared to what the situation was like in Christian Europe at the time). But in the mere 65 years since the creation of the State of Israel, between 13,171 and 14,657 Jews were killed in the various Israeli-Arab wars, and just about every Sephardi community throughout the Arab lands was expelled, left with nothing besides what they could carry.
ifti99:
“don’t even bother to reply”
That could be the best idea I’ve heard yet on this thread. I’ve said what I have to say, and I’m getting tired of going in circles.
LF:
“However do you really think that without a Jewish Government in Israel millions of Jewish immigrants including the vast vast majority of the Chareidi Families there would have been allowed to settle there??(Only a very small percentage of the Chareidim there now are decendents of people who came in the 18th century and earlier.)
Do you think countries like turkey would welcome Jewish immigrants from all over the world and give them a place to live??”
So they would’ve all gone to America. Big whoop.
“Can you not see how someone could look at events like the holocaust were entire yeshivas were killed out WHILE they learned and every other country closed their borders to the escaping Jews and conclude that it is prudent to establish a place that will open its borders to all Jews and provide an Army to protect them??”
Do you really think that the IDF would have been able to stop the Nazis? It took half the world to defeat the superpower that Germany was; a small army like the IDF wouldn’t have stood a chance. All that the existence of a Jewish State would have done is put all the Nazi’s targets in one place.
truthsharer:
“Lakewood Fellow, they weren’t killed. They were learning Torah and we learned on YWN that learning Torah is the ONLY hishtadlus you need.”
Nobody is claiming that somebody who learns is guaranteed that everything will go his way. But it definitely helps.
Torah is not the only hishtadlus you need. However, it does give those who learn it tremendous zechuyos, and those zechuyos may very well help tip the scale in your favor.
I would like to publicly state that I find daniela’s comments on R’ Druckman to be vile, petty, and simply untrue.
charliehall:
“First, he is Rabbi Avi Weiss.”
And I’m Rabbi Kanoi.
“No less a figure than Rabbi Druckman himself has been quoted as complaining that the charedi world doesn’t refer to DL rabbis by the appropriate title. One can disagree with him, but don’t disrespect him.”
This has nothing to do with the type of yarmulke Weiss, wears, the problem is that he’s trying to change the definition of Orthodox Judaism to include his watered-down, shamelessly pandering to the secular philosophy of the day, stream of so called Judaism. If I’m not mistaken, R Moshe Dovid Tendler has referred to him as “Conservative”.
“Second, Rabbi Avi Weiss is someone who has personally brought many Jews to mitzvah observance, and who has constantly spoken out against anti-Semites and others who oppress us, all over the world.”
So did the leaders of the Conservative/Reform movements; that doesn’t make what they do and believe any more correct.
“Few if any of us can stand in his shoes.”
Yeah, he’s got a special place in hell. He is migaleh panim ba’Torahshe’lo ki’halacha and machtei vi’choteh es harabbim on a truly impressive scale.
bman:
“”Ol mitzvos” means accepting that the yoke or the burden of mitzvos, meaning accepting that they BINDING. It is not equivalent to being m’kabel to DO all the mitzvos.”
I’m sorry, but that’s ridiculous. Accepting the mitzvos as binding means that one acknowledges that s/he must do them.
GAW:
The difference is that Lapid did not categorically refuse to be photographed on the first day of the new coalition together with Meretz, even if they acceded to his demands. He did say that about the Chareidim.
truthsharer:
“I’m waiting for Charedim to stop using waambulances and actually sit down and try to figure out the solution. Merely repeating “they hate us, they hate us” doesn’t do anything. Once you graduate sixth grade, you might have some logic skills acquired.”
Actually, both Bennet and Lapid have been reaching out to UTJ as an attempt at softening their chareidi-hating image. I’d call that a pretty successful strategy.
Oh, and once you graduate sixth grade, you should probably stop with the petty insults.
The psak of R’ Elyashiv? No.
(Of those who are machshir geirus to fill quotas, not so sure.)
GAW:
The obvious difference is that the said comment was referring to boosting the Chareidi population, not limiting the chilloni one.
“Plus, he was the most evil ever, so why rely on or invoke his promises?”
What does one have to do with the other?
“Jewish identity” — you seriously thought they meant “Shulchan Aruch” to the dot?”
I wish. But a little bit of tolerance for those who learn Torah from the state that sees itself as a continuation of the Jewish People would only be appropriate.
(Sorry, that got cut off.)
To accuse the Gedolei HaDor of putting politics before Halcha is a shonda and shows how tolerance is limited to those who think the way you do.
Oh, and I would assume that PBA was referring to true clowns like Avi Weiss, not R’ Druckman. But this is PBA we’re talking about, so I could be wrong.
I accidently posted this comment on somebody else’ username… mods, could you delete the previous post?
mdd:
“Kanoi, he promised forever and no matter the numbers?”
He didn’t specify any limits, so there should be none.
“Plus, he was the most evil ever, so why rely on or invoke his promises?”
I accidently posted this comment on somebody else’ username… mods, could you delete the previous post?
ifti99:
The light upon the nations is tens of thousands of people who are moser nefesh to learn Hashem’s Torah day and night. come hell, high water, or Zionists. Why do you insist on looking only at the negative aspect of everything the Chareidim do? Would it kill you to be dan li’kaf zchus evry once in a while?
“How much money do you think a deserving MO guy would collect in a chareidi shul?”
Again with the negative stereotypes. Just because somebody is Chareidi does not in any way mean he will not give money to somebody who is MO (although he will frequently have less money to give out).
Speaking of which, how much money do you think a deserving Chareidi guy would collect from MO with your attitude?
“Yet some chareidim have no issue criticizing every one who is not like them (like secular and MO), but have no problem taking money from them!”
What does one have to with the other? Would you take tzeddaka from a Chareidi?
“Funny how your little stereotype cuts both ways, doesn’t it?”
Oh, I’m the one with the stereotypes now? Seriously, does your contempt know no end?
DY, +1.
Bear:
“My present views are in line with true NK”
Really? You think it’s a good idea to hand the keys over to the Palestinians?
zdad:
“The Non-Charedim dont wont the Charedim in the Army”
Tell that to Lapid.
mdd:
“Let the Chareidim try going to Austria, Russia or Greece (these have universal draft) and try saying that as a community they must be patured from the draft because they learn.”
First of all, the cases would only be comparable if the founding father of the said countries would have promised the Chareidim an exemption from the draft, as was promised to them by Ben-Gurion.
Also, don’t you think that in a country with a “Jewish Identity”, things should be different? That people should be allowed to learn Torah in peace?
About Time:
Don’t worry, I’m not the type to be fazed by a few harsh words. I will continue to follow the opinion of the Gedolai Yisroel, not some anonymous bloggers. But I do appreciate the encouragement.
ifti99:
“The arrogance among some of you is simply astounding. And I say this as someone whose relatives came to this country way before most of you in the 18th century. You think all Zionists are gamblers and drug dealers?”
AT never made such a blanket statement. He simply said that “From Zionism shall spring forth controllers of gambling in Bucharest, Prague, and Budapest, drug dealers in Thailand,” etc. Which is not too much of stretch; after all (as R’ Aharon Feldman points out in Eye of the Storm), Israel has a significant mafia and is the world’s number one exporter of prostitution; not quite a “light unto the nations”.
“You have had ample time to work out a solution on the draft. Instead, your response has been like the Arabs… NO NO NO!”
The Zionists have had ample time to work out a solution with the Palestinians. Instead, their response has been like the Arabs… NO NO NO! Why? Because they don’t think there is any reasonable room for compromise. The same applies to the Chareidim; they will not compromise on what they believe to be right.
“OK, what do you think will happen now? Think chareidim will go to jail instead?”
There aren’t enough jail cells in the country for all the Chareidim. What will they do, set up ghettos? Detainment camps? How do you think that would play out in the international media?
“the hatred some of you have toward anyone who doesn’t agree with you is just plain wrong.”
You are the one here that has been lobbing false insults, accusations, and generalizations ad nauseum. Perhaps you should take a long, hard look in the mirror before parroting the same old “anybody wearing black hates his/her fellow Jews”. Being anti-zionist does not make one a sonei yisroel.
HIE:
“Who are you to argue with gedolim of our generation. They are the people who know and will guide us what to do.”
+1
Zdad:
Urging people not to vote can hardly be called attempting to destroy the state.
GAW:
Are you suggesting a “war” to limit the growth of particular demographic? Because I wouldn’t just call that “Paraoh”, I’d call that “Nazi”. We have a right to have children; sorry if it inconveniences you.
And like it or hate, you cannot call this natural growth an attempt to destroy the State of Israel and remove all non-Chareidim from the land. That is just ridiculous.
You cannot equate Chareidi takeover of certain neighborhoods, fueled by natural growth of that particular demographic, to attempting to “remove/destroy” anybody and everybody who does not agree with the Chareidi worldview. Like I said before, nobody is (and nobody will be) attempting to kick the chillonim out of Tel Aviv.
“Also reread “Bear”‘s statement.”
Bear was espousing the Satmar/Eidah HaChareidis view that the existence of the secular State of Israel is inherently a chillul Hashem. Therefore, it would be preferable for the state not to exist. However, neither Satmar nor the Eidah supports actively trying to “destroy” the state. Only Neturi Karta does that.
“kabblos mitzvahs does not mean keeping them- just accepting them!”
Yeah, but you have to accept to do them. That does not mean that a Ger who speaks one word of loshon hara is a goy, but s/he does have to be willing to honestly try to keep everything.
I am not advocating imposing Chareidi standards in Chareidi neighborhoods (perhaps we can discuss the pros and cons of that on another thread), only saying that it cannot be reasonably compared to “the removal of all non-charaidim… from the country”.
In case y’all were wondering, that last piece was in response to a comment by SJ which is no longer in existence.
The new Pope seems like a good guy, and I think it’s a good sign that, to quote AP, “Just hours after he was elected the first non-European pope in history, Francis sent a letter to Rome’s chief rabbi Riccardo di Segni, saying he hoped to “contribute to the progress that relations between Jews and Catholics” have seen since the 1962-1965 Second Vatican Council.” But only time will tell for certain.
fkelly:
You do realize that that will only encourage him, right?
GAW:
“(with neighborhoods in Yerushalaim turning over one by one, with Charaidim moving in and others moving out. “Kanoim” attacking in RBS. Busses are no longer allowed to show Tznius pictures of women).”
I repeat, imposing Chareidi standards in a Chareidi neighborhood is very different from wanting to “destroy” everybody else.
SJ:
Nobody is buying the innocent act anymore. We know enough about the D”L to know they don’t respect the rest of klal yisroel and generally consider us evil, murderous savages who need to be forcibly “civilized” by the enlightened D”L.
WIY:
“Mods
Why are you allowing discussions of non Jewish music bands and songs? Please don’t allow the standards to fall here.”
+1
I don’t know if the mods will let me post a link, but they do have a website, http://www.ohrnaava.net. If there’s no link in the comment, you can just google ohr naava.
GAW:
“One group is trying to remove/destroy the other.”
True. The chillonim are trying to make/force fundamental changes to Chareidi society, to the point where they would arguably not be chareidim anymore.
But in all seriousness, why do you people keep making such hateful, unfounded accusations? The Chareidim are not trying to “destroy” anybody, just like we do not pray for anybody’s death. This hateful, ridiculous stereotyping has got to stop. We’re human, just like you are; please treat us as such.
“It is unfortunate that we have gotten to this point, but the Charaidi ideal “end game” seems to be the removal of all non-charaidim.”
Again with this impressive mind-reading. Interesting how the D”L seem to know the Chareidim’s thought (or should I say plots?) better than we do.
“First from their towns (whom they place pressure to either act like a charaidi or leave, see Beitar and now RBS), and then from the country.”
That is an absolutely ridiculous comparison. Yes, there are extremists who seek to remove what they feel is inappropriate from their neighborhoods, but they only do this because they don’t want there to be negative influences on their neighbors and their children. You don’t (and you won’t) see them trying to get people to leave Tel Aviv.
The Chareidim are not plotting to take over the world, I promise.
mdd:
So now that SJ and GAW have made not-true accusations against the Chareidim, does that rob you of your right to protest if I falsely accuse the entire D”L community of something?
Huh?
GAW:
“I (and SpiderJerusalem) don’t understand (and if Bear would answer that would be great) why Satmar has not left the Medina and gone to Ever HaYarden or Suria, both which have the Mitzva of Yishuv Eretz Yisroel and are not controlled by the hated Zionists.”
Why should they leave? Eretz Yisroel belongs to the Jews; the Zionists do not have an exclusive claim to it.
SJ:
“The subject is Eretz Yisroel, not Metitza b’Peh.”
Huh?
“Haredim who believe they’re the only real Jews”
When did anybody say anything remotely like that?! Why do you continue to put words in our mouths, then bash us for what we supposedly hold?
We disagree with your hashkafos the same way that you disagree with ours. Why does this make you hate us so?
“would logically have no problem praying for the death of whom they consider “false Jews”.”
Aha. So first you decide what it is that we think of others, then based on those completely made up assumptions you decide that we pray for everyone else to drop dead.
If you think that’s a reasonable argument, there’s really nothing for me to say.
“We don’t hold by his garbage.”
Who’s being intolerant now? Do I go around calling R’ Kook’s shita garbage? (How dare you think you’re the only real Jews and pray for our deaths!)
Oh, and
“I expect the Haredim to fight Moshiach”
+
“We don’t hold by his garbage”
?
“nobody is hurling insults”
mdd:
“Kanoi, what goes around comes around! NK, Satmar and Brisk make not-true accusations against the Zionists, so they get it back.”
Seriously? Somebody on the other side lies, so you can say whatever you want?
In the words of Lemony Snicket, “If you fight fire with fire, the whole world will burn down”.
Teretz? What’s the kasha? You decided that tasking government programs is a chillul Hashem, and that’s simply not true.
There are ma’ases in Tanach where people were punished for arguing with the Gedolilm… start with Korah va’Adoso.
“pray for the death of Jews”?!
Tell me, SJ, what else do we do? Make matzos with Zionist blood?
ifti99:
“Good for you. Tell me something Kanoi. Who, exactly is a “gadol”?”
R’ Shteinman.
“If other rabbis (most, actually) and the Talmud believe that work is absolutely preferable than living off tzedakah, why would anyone believe otherwise?”
Obviously they believe that living off government programs while learning full-time is not what the Gemara was referring to.
“These same gedolim were the ones advising Jews not to leave Europe during the 1930s when Jabotinsky begged them to leave.”
And finally, you show your true colors. You do not care what the Gedolim say; you think you know better. You think you are smarter, or “more worldly”, than they are. You think you know what Hashem wants, not them.
You are wrong.
“You criticize… every Jew who doesn’t think like you.”
Where did I do that?
SJ:
Says you. And Satmar will say there’s no way Moshaich will be a Zionist.
No, I’m really hard to hang on the wall.
“I expect the Haredim to fight Moshiach because he may not recognize their way of life. What if he shows up wearing a baseball cap?”
What will the D”L do if Moshiach is Neturai Karta?
crisisoftheweek:
“kanoim that consider everyone not up to their standards a goy.”
Ah, good ‘ol disparing anybody and and everybody frummer than you (and before they even said anything, too).
#wheresYOURahavasyisorel
My favorite song is bishitas hakofrim ain anu maaminim, by R’ Amram Blau.
There are poskim who hold that smoking is muttar; I would imagine that these cigarettes are catered towards them.
Fully agree with ending the draft, but I think that separating religion and state will only result in more chillul shabbos, greater acceptance of homosexuality, etc. It would also rob the Jewish Identity of the State of Israel of whatever connection it maintains to the actual Halachic observance of Judaism. What we have now is far from perfect, but it’s also far better than nothing.
Also, I do think that pursuing peace with the Palestinians is important; fighting a war every two or three years is not a very good long-term plan. That said, we obviously should not be making concessions that will undermine our security (freeing terrorists, giving up East Jerusalem, etc) as long as there is a realistic threat of terrorism.
“I think moshiach will be chareidi, but will arrive wearing a srugi, just to test our ahavas yisroel.”
Lol 🙂
ifti99:
“Kanoi: No, it is preferable to live off perfectly legal government programs and learn full time than to work.
I totally totally disagree with this attitude on so many levels that I can’t even begin.”
Nothing personal, but if ifti99 disagrees with an attitude and the Gedolim support, I’m gonna go with the Gedolim.
“Do you realize that in Israel and America, the view of chareidi life gets more negative every day?”
Again, we will not compromise on what we believe just to improve our image.
“refusing to do anything to help other Jews other than themselves.”
Speaking motzei shaim ra about hundreds of thousands of Jews is not something you want on your cheshbon; kindly stop doing so.
“Your other comments like ” The Chareidim have just as much of a right to the land as the Zionists do. Would you be singing the same tune if the Chareidim passed a law that nobody could go to work?” are even more insane. Is that really what you want? Pass a law that no one should work?”
What is up with you and twisting my words? I did not in any way suggest that we should “Pass a law that no one should work”; I said that kicking anybody who want to learn full-time out of Eretz Yisroel is as ridiculous as kicking out anybody who works full-time.
mdd:
“it’s Chillul HaShem and hisgarus be’Umos.”
Again, says you. Personally, I’m gonna go with the Gedolim’s definition of chillul Hashem and hisgarus be’Umos.
Mobe613:
“There is absolutely no basis for not serving in the army.”
What are you talking about?! Li’halacha, one is not supposed to stop learning to perform a mitzva that is efsher la’asos al yiday achairim, can be performed by somebody else.
“If learning is important they can learn before and after, and if they were truly interested in doing their part the army would have worked out a system where they could continue learning while they serve.”
Any time spent serving cannot be spent learning. The Chareidim would rather be learning.
“But it is obvious, and has always been obvious, that the chareidim just dont want to serve. Some of them are just scared, and some of them (especially the leadership) are afraid that once their population is our in the real world they will realize that they dont need to be charedi and that their roshei yeshiva have been wrong about some things.”
It is obvious, and always has been, that the Lapidnicks don’t just want the Chareidim to “share the burden”. Instead, they view the Chareidim as a backwards, evil cult that must be destroyed at all costs.
“They claim that they are protecting the state by learning, but you would have to be a delusional charedi to think that is an argument that would actually convince anyone that isnt charedi.”
Aha. So looking good is more important than doing what’s actually right?
GAW:
“the Charaidim are practicing Jim Crow. (although I don’t agree that it can be compared either way) This is with their “separate but equal” access to the Kotel, “separate but equal” bussing & exclusive neighborhoods for Charaidim only (to the point where they regulate what visitors are allowed to wear and physically assault those who do not comply). It is bigotry, pure and simple.”
You do realize that everything you just called “bigotry” is all pure halacha, right?
ifti99:
“With all due respect, do you understand how ridiculous you sound when you make such comments?”
Aha. So you claim that we can’t take government aid because Moshe Rabbeinu didn’t, and I’m the one being ridiculous?
“The only reason you can live without working is not because you are supported by the community; rather, you are living off the backs of everyone who works. So, you are saying it is actually permissable and even preferred to live off charity than to work.”
No, it is preferable to live off perfectly legal government programs and learn full time than to work.
“BTW, your comments about the medinah are just plain wrong. The state was established in 1948. If what you say about the Arabs is true, please explain the riots in 1920, 1929 and 1936 were about. Please also explain why all Ashkenazic Jews were barred from Yerushalyim for over 100 years in the 17th century. Please also explain the reason for the Arab pogroms in Hebron and Tzsfas in 1834, when Zionism as a movement did not even exist!”
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/jews-resisting-the-zionist-draft/page/3#post-445029
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/jews-resisting-the-zionist-draft/page/4#post-445372
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/jews-resisting-the-zionist-draft/page/4#post-445426
“No one forces you to live there. This isn’t Russia, you can move.”
The Chareidim have just as much of a right to the land as the Zionists do. Would you be singing the same tune if the Chareidim passed a law that nobody could go to work?
“I am aware that in Sefer Bereishis, Yaakov Avinu did things for the general population which were not even Jewish. Are you on a higher level than he was?”
I just love when people quote random stories from Tanach that have nothing to do with the subject at hand… And a with a nice dose of “how dare you!”, too. A true classic.
ROB:
“I used to be a regular poster on this site but the coffee room has been taken over by extremist posters, who are more in tune with Iran than with the Jewish people… all the other loons on this site!”
Right. Because you’re being the very picture of the calm, reasonable non-extremist here yourself, with all your insults and name-calling.
mdd:
“Da’as Yochid, to claim bittul Torah when the reason they are able to learn is because the frei are forced to pay for the Chareidi learning is outrageous and Chillul HaShem!”
Says you. The Gedolim clearly disagree.
“if a baal ha’bais supports a yungerman in learning and then says that he can’t or won’t do it anymore, the yungerman should go and besiege the baal ha’baises house till he agrees to lay out the cash?”
If you really can’t see the difference between taking government aid that one is legally entitled to and laying siege to people’s houses, I’m not even going to bother trying to pointing it out to you.
ifti99:
We believe the ideal lifestyle for one who can learn all their life is for them to, yes, learn all their life. The people who can’t learn all their life will work and serve in the army.
“I learn Daf Yomi, and it is pretty obvious that the vast majority of tanaim and amoraim held regular jobs. Rashi was a winemaker. Rambam was a doctor.”
It is also fairly obvious that not one of the Tanaim, Amaraim, or Rishonim used electricity. The reason for this is also fairly obvious; in that day and age, it simply wasn’t possible. It also wasn’t possible to survive without going to work, so they worked. But today, if one is learning and can survive without working, why work?
“Meanwhile, some people seem to think that since they were not in favor of the country, the govt has no right to make them serve in the army. Are you kidding me? If you lived in Egypt or Italy or Greece or any other country and they drafted you, do you really think you could refuse with the excuse that you are learning full time???”
There is no draft in Egypt, Italy, or Greece. And if they (or Britain, or America) had taken control of the land in 1948, we wouldn’t have one either. If the Medina had never been created, the Arabs would never have been so keen on “driving all the Jews into the sea”. and we wouldn’t be fighting wars on such a constant basis.
bump
Avi Weiss.
My feelings are that the YCT brand of so-called Judaism is no different then that of the beginning of the Reform movement. They do not get their outlook from the Torah; they have their own preconceived notions, more often than not taken directly from some secularist liberal’s philosophy. Then, they twist and pervert the words of the Torah Hakdosheh (most notably in regard to Halacha), pick and choosing, discarding what they regard as “outdated”, to make it say what they wanted it to say in the first place. So not only do they spew their own twisted garbage, but they actually have the audacity to blame it on Hashem and his Torah! They completely disregard every last one of the Gedolei Hador, both those of today and those of past generations, due to their own arrogance and deluded sense of self-importance. They have no problem labeling what Chazal said as “obsolete”, and they often go so far as to say that Chazal’s morals are simply incorrect.
They are the furthest thing from acceptable.
Yeah, contrary to popular opinions, we’re not actually made in molds.
SF:
If a person is searching for proofs of the truth of Yiddishkeit, I don’t think he must inform his family of his current doubts. That said, perhaps if they know they could offer some help; depends on the exact situation.
RD:
“It was the hand of G-d operating through the valiant soldiers of the IDF that ensured our victories. Not the studies of those who choose consciously not to be a part of modern Israel.”
Quick point: Hashem runs the world. Wars are not actually won by military might; wars are won by Hashem’s will alone. Ayleh bi’rechev vi’ayleh ba’soosim, va’anachnu bi’shaim Hashem Elokainu nazkir. As such, while Hashem may have indeed operated through the IDF, that does not by any stretch of the imagination mean that the IDF was the actual cause of the victory.
“We are not prophets. How we can claim that the studies of a specific parochial group have a theurgic effect?”
True, we are not prophets. But the greatest of all prophets has informed us that when we do Hashem’s will, things will go well for us in this world. We say it twice a day. And Chazal have informed us that the learning of Torah is particularly important in this regard.
“Plus, those who make this claim ignore the fact that there are scores of Hesder yeshivot”
Nobody is ignoring the hesder yeshivos; if they want to learn some time and serve some time, they have every right. However, you cannot drag somebody who wishes to learn all day out of the Bais Medrash.
” Plus, neither the Lakewood Mashgiach, nor yourself, have the right or ability to determine what is a legitimate theological premise and what isn’t.”
Perhaps not; but the Torah and, al pi daas Chazal, does. And this is clearly over that line.
“The roshei yeshiva of YU, just like HaRav Aharon Lichtenstein, shlita, endorse fully service of all bnei torah in Tzahal. See Sotah 44b.”
And R’ Shteinman, R’ Chaim Kanievesky, R’ Ovadya Yoesef, and R’ Shmuel Aurebach, to name just a few, strongly disagree.
“In addition, Hazal and the Rambam mandate one to work for a living. The torah is not a means for self-glorification and that is what ends up happening, sadly.”
As mdd pointed out, we do not hold like that Rambam li’halacha. If we did, it would be assur for any Rov, Rebbi or Rosh Yeshiva to receive a salary.
Avi K:
They should definitely be doing something useful with their lives. The question is only if going to the army will put them in situation that is harmful to their spiritual well-being.
SF:
I didn’t say that, I said they may be classified as an apikores for whatever halachos that designation is nogeiah. (But again, I’m no Rav.) They should definitely continue to keep Torah and Mitzvos.
RD:
Legitimate? YCT? Is that supposed to be some sort of joke? I’d take the semicha of some small furry creatures from my backyard more seriously than that of those Judaism-twisting quacks. At least my furry friends aren’t actively trying to distort Judaism into whatever garbage secular society happens to have taken a liking to.