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old man:
“Old superstitions don’t die, it seems, they just modernize themselves.”
I believe the technical term is “Halacha”. And you’re absolutely correct.
Did you know that there is a Gemora (no, I don’t remember exactly where) that says that there is a province/tribe within Amalek called “Germanya” (which the Vilna Gaon says is Germany), and that if that if they put their mind to to it they could “go out and destroy the world”. And until oh, about the 1930s there were probably plenty of arrogant, new-age “smarter-than-the-Gemora”s who thought the Gemora was backwards, superstitious, foolish, and just plain wrong. But who ended up being wrong?
Ouch.
yekke2:
There is a chashash that it may become chumitz, so we are makpid. Nobody says it should be completely assur.
mewho:
No, the minhag (or at least, my minhag) is not on mixing in the mouth.
” There is a whole Torah out there. You have to do both. Isn’t that kind of basic?”
You would think, wouldn’t you.
far east:
+1. Anybody who only keeps the part of the Torah that strikes their fancy is clearly not doing even that for the right reason (’cause Hashem said so).
DY:
No, he thinks he’s a superstitious fool. Heck, he probably thinks the Gemora that mentions this concept is just being backwardly superstitious. ‘Cause he knows better than all of them.
zdad, nobody has suggesting doing any of the things you mentioned. Merely asking why a godol wears sunglasses cannot reasonably be compared to spying on a godol in the bathroom. There’s no need to go ballistic.
And chassidishY.U.type’s first comment (third on the page) is possibly the best troll post in the CR.
zdad:
“Does it really matter?”
Whoa, relax. People have a right to be interested in/ curious about whatever they want, and talking about R’ Yosef is infinitely more productive than talking about some sports player or movie star.
“Kavod is not mimmicing every action a Gadol does, no matter how minute. In fact it shows a lack of Kavod.”
I’m sorry, but that’s just ridiculous. It is no lack of kavod to be interested in and to emulate an adom gadol.
ROB:
“what does my remark have to do with MO?”
People associating themselves with the MO ideology often (and ridiculously) attempt to to label every chumra “sinas chinom”, as you just did.
“This was an attempt by chez11 to “passel” thousands of Jews… So, it is disingenious of you to hide behind “a halachic discussion”, it wasn’t”
Who’s throwing around accusations now?
All chez11 did was ask – yes, ask – if people espousing a certain belief are, according to the opinion of R’ Elyashiv, halachicly considered to be apikursim. Sounds like a halachic discussion to me.
“you should check some of the subsequent comments by others”
Name them.
“To assert that someone who believes in an evolutionary world is a “kofer’ and an “apikores’ just deepens the chasm that is between some on the extreme right of the spectrum and the other jews.”
Could be. However, if R’ Elyashiv said that they are apikursim, you cannot demand that the Halacha be changed in the interests of bringing us closer our secular brethren. That’s just not how Judaism works.
There is no such thing as overpopulation. The world was created for people to live in. People are good. You can’t have too many people.
“though I am not enlisting”
So what makes you Jewish?
“I said that why does it say ??? ??? ???? ??? etc.; It should say ??? ??? ???? ???.”
I have R’ Elyashiv’s Haggadah, and it has the girsa Echad Chacham vi’Lapid Rasha.
Sam2: In case you haven’t recently, click on popa’s username.
ROB:
“ahavas yisroel is in short supply on this website…”
See, now this is the type of MO chumra bashing that just really ticks me off. All that happened here was a halachic discussion; nobody here has said anything that is even remotely lacking in ahavas Yisroel. Just because somebody is advocating a chumra does not, contrary to popular MO belief, mean that they hate you. How about taking your own advice.
(However, in the interests of being dan li’kaf zechus myself, perhaps you were referring to a comment which has since been deleted, in which case I retract my comment.)
yytz/Charlie:
Saying that apikursos is taught at every college is a far cry from saying that everybody who has gone to college is an apikores
“Its one thing to complain , Its quite another to call them goyim , dogs and other names.”
Oh, come on. For every time the Bennet/Lapid was insulted, the Chareidim were called parasites, primitives, etc. The nature of a stormy debate is that it attracts hotheads, and hotheads tend to hurl insults. This is by no means a phenomena limited to the Chareidi world.
Let’s put things in perspective here. Once, one crazy extremist spit at a 8 year old girl. Besides for the fact that these people are a negligible extremist faction/cult, let’s not make it sound like this is something that even they do everyday. It happened, the media went crazy, not one “Chareidi leader” said anything to support or condone it, and that was the end of it.
Compare that to a political party, representing the entire D”L community, controlling over tenth of the government, deciding it wants to join the anti-religious faction in forcing their ideals down the throats of the entire Chareidi community, forcing the Chareidim to do what they have long held was prohibited.
Can you really not see why the Chareidi leadership would feel a need to respond to one and not the other?
zdad:
“It seems the Dati Leumi in israel would rather be with Chilonim than Charedim. HONESTLY ask yourself why.”
To be brutally honest, I think it’s because Bennet, and the left-wing D”L community in general, have more in common with the chillonim than the Chareidim, both socially and ideology. They were finally forced to choose between the religious and the Zionist, and their choice speaks volumes about their true priorities. They are Zionists first, religious second.
Avi K:
“Kanoi, I don’t know where you live but b”H I have lived in Israel for 25 years and I know people who work even though they have not done the Army for various reasons (too old when they came, medical reasons etc.).”
Could be. But if somebody doesn’t serve because he is learning, he is not allowed to work.
rebdoniel:
“Torat Yisrael, Medinat Yisrael, Am Yisrael.”
See, now that scares me. You seem to be equating the importance of a secular state with an at best mixed record of behavior towards Torah and those who observe it to the importance of both the existence Hashem’s eternal Torah and the existence of Klal Yisroel, Hashem’s chosen people. Besides being completely and ridiculously untrue, that is highly problematic, to say the least.
talmud, I feel for you. Perhaps you should consider taking this up with your father?
“Talmud, how old are you? A mature adult who has any spirituality would not be wheere you are. YOu need tikun gadol!! Try a dsicovery program! Be mekarev yourself to Yiddishkeit”
That is entirely inappropriate. Even if I would agree with some elements of your hashkafa, you do not yell and scream it (or anything else, for that matter) at somebody else as if they’re the biggest rasha in the world.
“I’ve had Rabbeim like you, who are very imposing of their Chumros. Instead of being Mekarev people, you push people back.”
+1
zdad:
“The GOP recently comissioned a report and why they lost. The haredim would be wise to act similary although not much research is given.”
It’s really not that complicated: Bennet allied with Lapid, making it impossible for Netanyahu to form a coalition including the Chareidim. Case closed.
“Surely you and excommunicatre and throw the children out of school of Sikirim who spit and taunt 8 year old girls.”
The Chareidim are not one homogenous group, and the extremists have their own shuls, schools, etc. The people spitting on little girls are the same one spraying “Shteinman = Kook” graffiti in Meah Shearim/Ramat Bais Shemesh (apparently, “Kook” is the biggest insult they can think of). These people are the “Open Orthodoxy” of the Chareidi world; there’s really not much that can be done about them.
“You dont win friends when you call people Goyim, Haters of Torah etc who do not agree with you. Especially when their views are certainly within Halachic boundaries”
That I do agree with. The Chareidim need to come across as less belligerent if they want to make long-term friends.
yichusdik:
“talmidim and kollel learners reach heights of dveykus and amilus in Torah learning, and then get in a tank or a jeep and protect Jewish lives. They aren’t in bnei brak.”
Yeah, in Bnei Brak they just learn all day. Not sure why you seem to think that that’s inferior to learning and serving.
“It is the opportunity we have to demonstrate to the eibishter that we can be a complete people, not a collection of individuals doing individual mitzvos.”
Personally, I’d rather be an individual who observes Torah u’Mitzvos than be part of a “complete people” who do not accept upon themselves the yoke of Torah observance. But apparently, I can only speak for myself.
It is an egregious, yet smug and self satisfying lie to insist that the creation and continued existence of the State of Israel has solved all of our problems, and now all we have to do is sing kumbaya together.
“forgive me for seeing the ikveso demeshicho”
I agree that current events, what with us returning to both our land and to Torah study en masse, is probably (and hopefully) ikvisa di’mishicha. But that doesn’t whitewash the Medina’s rather mixed record towards Torah and those who observe it.
I’ve always found it ironic how those who preach tolerance and acceptance for every wacky heter are so quick to condemn every chumra. It makes one wonder if they’re really concerned about keeping Halacha pure, or if they’re just trying to make Judaism as light as possible.
zdad:
“I will repeat, the Chief Rabbi is not for the Charedim”
True, but it’s still got to conform to the actual Halacha. There are only so many heterim you can use while still claiming to have an authentic, unbiased interpretation of the Halacha.
Avi K:
“there is no law that states that a person cannot work unless he has completed army service”
Oh yes there is.
akuperma:
“However once hareidim resistance forces the zionists to end conscription”
If only.
Parshaman: Yup.
Veltz Meshugener: 🙂
kwaiker:
Dates are sick. If you want to understand the person a telephone call suffices. Dates are for measuring her meat value.
I’d like to point out that for actual Halacha one should ask one’s Rov, not rely on anonymous bloggers who may or may not have any idea what they’re talking about.
Josh31:
“Showing up at the Chupah without any skills to support your wife financially is like showing up at the start of Succos without a Sukkah or Arba Minim.”
If my wife doesn’t mind, why should you?
“Actually, I think that the fact that you are reducing children to a monetary decision is kind of disgusting.”
+1
truthsharer:
Yeah, that’s when people were actually starving to death en masse. Today that doesn’t happen.
GAW, read some of Lapid’s articles/speeches; he is out to change the Chareidi way of life not because they take state funding, but because he believes it is the way things should be.
“Regardless, my hope is that R’ Stav is elected Chief Rabbi, and I think that ultimately, the humbling that the Haredi parties will experience will do them good in the long run.”
What does that have to do with anything else said on this topic?
‘Cause that’s not sinas chinom at all, right? Only being anti-Zionist is sinas chinom.
I agree with PBA; Orthodox is more of a social definition than a religious one. In the memorable words of R’ Gifter: “I am not an Orthodox Jew. I am a Torah Jew.”
WOW, sorry for derailing your thread, but some things I feel the need to respond to.
“yidishkeit has been unchanged since Har Sinai”
Not too often, no. And pretty much every time it was, it generated tremendous controversy. We try to keep our Judaism as authentic as possible.
“the Chasam Sofer put this whole thing together in response to the haskalah, that became another evolution”
The Chassam Sofer did not, contrary to the belief of Yair Lapid, create an entirely new sect of Judaism to compete with the Haskalah. He merely reaffirmed the traditional beliefs and practices of Rabbinic Judaism in the face of the Reform Movement, much the way the Gra did in the face of Chasidus. (Not that I’m equating Chasidus with Reform, only that they were both, to some extent, deviations from traditional Judaism.
mdd:
“so if some Chareidim some place deside that they own all of Australia, that should be respected?”
What does that have to do with Lapid and Bennet trying to force their ideals down the throats of Chareidi society?
(Oh, and if some Zionists some place deside that they own all of Israel, that should be respected?)
Mdd, the reason the government is only cutting off all entitlements is because Likud and Bayit HaYehudi have some say in the matter, too. The original Lapid plan called for fines and jail time for Chareidim who refuse to join the IDF.
Also, Lapid himself has proclaimed his intention make the Chareidim into just another part of Israeli society, something which the Chareidim have always opposed doing. See http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/yair-lapid-to-chareidim-you-won#pos-434501
TS:
“If it’s a fundamental part of charedi society to sit and learn all day and not work, why is it only in Israel?”
Believe it or not, all Chareidim are not exactly the same. Just because the Chareidi community in Israel believes something does not mean that the Chareidim in Israel feel the same.
Charliehall:
“Modern Orthodox Religious Zionism is the True Torah Judaism that has been practiced for millenia.”
Says you.
“we have been praying for a return to Zion for almost two millenia.”
Which does not in any way mean we must support the secular State of Israel that is in power today.
If by “win”, you mean that there won’t actually be soldiers dragging people out of the Beis Medrash, then yes, this is a win.
He has absolutely no such right. If be doesn’t like it, he can stop paying for it; but he has no right to tell us how and how not to live our lives. We live our lives according to the dictates of the Torah and of Daas Torah, not some ex-journalist without a high school diploma.
You may want to try posting on the OTD thread to get Aries attention; that’s the only one she really frequents.
I’ve always found it ironic that those preaching tolerance tend to do it in such an intolerant way… It leads me to wonder if they really believe in being nonjudgmental, or if they simply don’t want to be judged (while still being able to judge and denigrate others, particularly those to the right of them). Just a thought.
GAW:
That may be true, but at the end of the day Lapid is still not just trying to protect his own piggy bank. He’s trying to impose fundamental changes to the nature of Chareidi society, changes that the Chareidim believe are completly wrong.
If all Lapid was worried about was paying the bills, he would be advocating austerity. He is not. What be is trying to do is force the Chareidim to become just like everyone else.
Yes, they believe that anybody who can learn, should learn. Therefore, they do not believe that people should automatically go to work, as Lapid does.
LF, the Nazis didn’t have a tremendous lack of soldiers; they merely didn’t have enough to defeat the rest of the world put together. They certainly would have allocated resources towards crushing a Jewish State, just as they managed to have the concentration camps up and running to the very end. Would this have caused the Third Reich to come to its end somewhat faster? Probably, but that wouldn’t have stopped them from doing it any more than it stopped them from devoting soldiers to running the camps.
GAW, Lapid does not just want the Chareidim to stop taking government aid. He wants them to serve in the army and join the workforce en masse; both things that the Chareidim very strongly believe is wrong. But more than that, he wants the Chareidim to integrate into greater Israeli society, something that the Chareidim have always prided themselves on not doing. These things are what sets the Chareidim apart, and Lapid is trying to destroy them precisely so that the Chareidim will no longer be standing apart from everyone else. He is trying to change the very fabric of Chareidi society against the wishes of that same society; you can’t blame the Chareidim for not being too happy about that.
herxlismoshiach:
Would it be such a bad thing to contribute to society, as opposed to sitting in a nice airconditioned building, sipping coffee, and doing nothing besides trying to get people worked up?
“Let’s assume (and I know this is a big assumption but let’s take it as a given) that the government will accommodate all of a person’s religious needs in the army or some other non-violent national service. Also, let’s assume (and this is another big assumption) that there is nothing halachically wrong with doing community service for Medinas Yisroel, in other words it’s no different than doing community service for any secular nation and government.”
If that would be true, then there would indeed be no problem with somebody who is not learning anyways or not learning anymore to go to the army/national service/whatever. (Although we would still object to the government deciding that somebody may not learn if he wishes to.) The question is only if these assumptions, particularly the first one, are indeed correct.
musser zoger, the Rambam poppa quoted clearly says that whoever wants may join shevet Levi in full-time learning, ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??????
LF:
I think that if fully half the of the Jews from Europe made it into America, it would have been far easier for the rest to do so than you’re making it out to be. But point taken.
“You are just making up facts now.”
I believe the technical term is “speculation”.
Oh, and suggesting that the IDF could have prevented the Holocaust is…
“The facts are that the Germans were plenty busy in Europe and that the war ended before the Nazis could take the middle east, there is no reason to assume that they would have reached E”Y sooner had there been more Jews there.”
I don’t know, they seemed to be willing to devote a whole lot of effort towards wiping us out. If there would have been a significant Jewish population in what was then known as Palestine, I think the Nazis would have had much more of an incentive to conquer it.
“In fact it makes sense to say that if the Germans knew they were facing a powerful Organized Army allied with opposing superpowers there they probably would have hesitated even longer to go out to the middle east.”
They had no problem starting up with the French, the English, the Americans, and the Russians (all of them world-class powers)… at the same time. Do you honestly think the IDF would’ve scared them away?
“First of all this idea that Muslims always treated the Jews great is myth.”
Yes, it was never paradise (although it was better in the Arab lans then it was anywhere else). But they weren’t usually killing 14,000 of us in the span of 65 years, or expelling every last Sefardi community. That only happened after the State of Israel was created.
“Second of all so this is the pretext the Arabs used”
Again, forget what they say; look at what they do, and how that compares to how they treated us pre-1948.
“Since when did listening to Anti Semites and agreeing with their reasons for killing us become a Frum thing to do??”
I do not in any way endorse the Arabs’ excuses for wanting to murder us. I’m just saying it wasn’t the greatest idea to provoke them.