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Hate ’em.
I did it myself for about 8 months! After moving to E”Y, best/first job I could find.
In E”Y, if you’re in the central area, Ganei Yehoshua (Park HaYarkon) is very nice. Most of all, I enjoy walking all the way from Tel Aviv Port / the Sde Dov area, from the sea, all the way along the Yarkon to Bnei Brak (you end up near the Ramat Gan stadium / Ayalon mall). It’s a 2 hour walk, green and quiet and plenty of places to sit.
I even did it with my wife when she was in a wheelchair after having surgery, 2 days before we left E”Y to move to Europe. But we were there on one of our shidduch dates also, a looooong time ago.
@gavra – “That being said, I otherwise agree, and I don’t think we should legislate the issue (for the reasons you mention), but work to bring awareness of the damage it causes.”
Indeed, that is fine. We’re allowed to voice our opinion. Of course it is wrong, according to us. I’m not saying I do not find the idea abhorrent. I personally most certainly do and we should be allowed to say that.
But we should not try to force anyone. I believe that if I want others to respect me, then I must also respect them. And as long as what they do isn’t against the law and as long as they don’t do it in public, I see no reason why I should care. It’s other people’s private business.
Just like we don’t care what religion others practice, we shouldn’t care what else they practice. Let them do whatever they want and let us just focus on improving themselves.
Will pass the name on to my wife. Please keep us informed.
Is it family or an acquaintance of you?
Controversial opinions? This sounds like fun. I have a couple.
I believe in complete separation between state and religion. The same way it is in Europe – much more than in the US.
(For Americans: in Europe, in most countries, for example, the *only* way to legally get married is a civil marriage via your local municipality / council. Religious ceremonies, whether performed by a rav, a priest, imam, or anyone else, do not have any relevance or any standing for the law. The only place one can get legally married for the law is via the government.)
Mixing state with religion only gives trouble. I believe Israel should dismantle the “Rabbanut”. The state should focus on being a state – and religious people should focus on managing their own affairs.
Why? Because that will guarantee freedom of religion – without the government’s interference. I am referring, for example, to the Rabbanut being forced by a court to grant a hechsher to a bakery owned by “J for youknowwho’s”, or the court ordering the Rabbanut to allow people with fake IDF ‘conversions’ to register for marriage.
Totally separating state from religion will allow each and every person to lead their life the way they want it. Each religion can practice its own practices.
I would even go as far as to say that, that being considered, I don’t even oppose gay marriage. Again: freedom. If they want to do that, let them. Why should I care? Why should I force my views on others? I just don’t care, and I don’t see the problem. I really don’t understand why Americans care so much about this issue in New York at the moment either – what does it matter? Why does it bother you? Let them be happy… it’s their issue, not yours.
I use:
LOCAL / WORLD:
* BBC
* CNN
* Evening Chronicle (local Gateshead/Newcastle paper)
ERETZ YISROEL:
* Haaretz
* Ynetnews
* Arutz Sheva
FRUM:
* vosizneias
* YWN
* kikarhashabat
and sometimes some other papers depending on what’s going on in the world, such as:
* Rheinische Post
* Frankfurter Allgemeine
and more…
A former neighbor of me, Shlomo Nashelsky, is a chareidi American who is a tour guide also. Don’t have his number around unfortunately.
@147 – Why ‘up’ a 3 year old thread?
Anyway, on topic: I’ve also always had to work on Chol haMoed. Both in E”Y and in chu”l.
I’m an IT professional at the moment (my career aspirations really lie elsewhere, to be honest). Let me advise you one thing – if you’re thinking of going into the world of systems administration (in the widest sense), you’ll sooner or later run into a shabbos ceiling – that is, the point in your career where you become indespensible to your employer on shabbos in case of emergencies.
Personally I work in the ‘storage’ world (previously I worked in the general Windows administration field at several major American companies). Storage devices are on 24/7. (If you’re familiar with computers – I’m talking about SAN devices.) Now logically, most companies that have SANs are very large companies, and most very large companies work 24/7 or at least need 24/7 availability (including shabbos). So I just know that I can work as part of a team, but, I can never be the one ultimately responsible for the whole thing… because that requires 24/7 availibility in case of a crisis. Keep in mind that for modern companies *all* of their IT services reside on these SANs – their Exchange servers, their CRMs, their internal business processes, their file storage, tens or hundreds or thousands of virtual servers or even the employee’s virtual desktops… Any downtime on those systems, even of 10 seconds, can cause a major impact and cause the company to lose millions of $. And if it’s medical, it may cost people’s lives; if it’s military, it may affect national security. In short, these systems are important.
So well, again, it depends on what you want. But if you’re considering a career in the systems administration area, keep this in mind. You’ll either be limited to smaller companies (that don’t work on shabbos and don’t care about service availability over shabbos), or to a lower role (non-managerial).
If you’re looking at being a programmer, however, you don’t really have anything to worry about – I don’t know of any programmers who have to work 24/7 (though I’m sure there are – it’s just a lot less common).
Yerushalayim is not a place for ‘going out’ in any way indeed. Very, very difficult to find anything appropriate there, especially in winter.
The idea of taking the train from Jerusalem to Beit Shemesh and back is really nice though!
Similarly, maybe taking a bus to Ein Gedi and back would also be nice.
Inside the city you’re pretty much stuck with *nothing*.
@147 – there is no store called “Steinway” in Gateshead. You might find a piano by that name, though (Steinway is a piano brand, I believe). Now perhaps let’s stick to relevant issues? You kind of sound like a sort of troll. A Dutch troll, to be precise…
Per longarekel.
I myself used to keep motza”sh per Rabbeinu Tam ‘bli neder’ but would often daven before that, just not do havdala or any melachos before that.
As of late I haven’t really been doing that very much since I live in a place where (almost) nobody does so and in summer in particular, honestly, I think it’s late enough already when shabbos is out at 11:15 PM or so!
I think you made the right decision. You are supposed to find the place where you can learn best.
@crazybrit – I disagree with your username, you’re not crazy at all. 🙂
I personally think it’s great when everyone else does so as well, but when only 1 person does so in shul it does bother me a little, it does disturb my kavonoh.
A manager in the zoo, nonetheless…
Looking from your title I assume you are using a translation. The Hebrew version is quite difficult (the real original is in Arabic).
Personally I have the Feldheim translation, I think it’s by Rav Daniel Haberman. Very good translation, very clear. If you’re using another one, leave it and get the Feldheim one.
“1)Living in Eretz Yisrael is a big mitzva. 2)Supporting an anti-God, anti-Torah government is a big aveira. 3)Living in Eretz Yisrael today supports an anti-God, anti-Torah government(directly or indirectly). Conclusion: Living in Eretz Yisrael today is a mitzva haba’ah b’aveira. If someone already lives there he might be allowed to stay since it is very difficult to uproot oneself from one’s country. All the Gedolim that Avi K. mentions supported the Yishuv of Shomrei Torah in Eretz Yisrael and they all lived prior to the founding of the state. The state of israel is Churban Eretz Yisrael not Yishuv Eretz Yisrael. Mods, please allow this through. This is a Torah disscussion and this view should be considered. Thank you very much.”
I fully agree with what you write – except for the single addition, which I assume you also agree with, that Jewish sovereignty is not allowed – and the type (secular or ‘religious) doesn’t matter.
But at the same time, I believe that a return to Ottoman times as Health would like to see is quite unlikely. There simply is no solution.
It’s not the quantity of the knowledge, but the quality, and, even more, what you do with it.
Personally I wasn’t frum my whole life and my knowledge is rather limited – particulary gemoro-wise. But that doesn’t bother me, since I have plenty of knowledge (though I always strive to learn more) and I have sufficient knowledge to be able to find whatever I want to find.
Wisdom compensates quite well for lack of knowledge, and wisdom is something you have, or don’t have.
Fun? What is fun? Our forefathers didn’t know what “fun” means.
??? ???? ?? ?????
😉
Same here, since yesterday evening suddenly throat pain.
My recommendations:
* Sleep. Relax.
* Drink a lot. Doesn’t matter what – personally I mainly drink juices and tea.
* Eat well.
* Don’t talk too much.
* Stay warm.
I’ve added you to the Tehilim list my wife maintains.
My wife went through 5 surgeries on her ankle so far after a serious fall 10 years ago. We’re averaging 1 surgery every 2 years, and it will never be 100% normal again. Indeed it has a large impact – she was also unable to work very long because of it (she is working now, B”H).
Aside from that I don’t really have anything useful to say that others didn’t say yet…
Is that indeed what he wrote? (@feivel, if he wrote them in a letter, that doesn’t make any difference.)
If that is what he believes, then the only place he belongs in is a church, as a pastor.
@writersoul: Please stop twisting my words.
@HaKatan: I stand behind what you wrote by 100%.
nevermind 🙂
“A good portion of the bloodshed lies squarely on the hands of the Tzionim. They Raitzed on the Goyim by making a Medina -thereby increasing their hatred and subsequently their violence ten-fold!”
I second that – as applied to the old-day tzionim. The modern-day leaders of the State of Israel are not the same. They’re bad, evil and all that – but they’re not comparable to Weizmann, Ben Gurion etc.
Nowadays the real Tzionim we must fight against are the fringe Dati Leumi ones who seek to enflame the entire world by going on Har HaBayis and destroying the Islamic sites there. Those who want to build the 3rd beis hamikdosh with their own hands. Those who loudly shout from the rooftops that the Arabs should be thrown out of all of E”Y (incl Yehuda/Shomron). These people, the “Machon HaMikdash” type, the “Kahane” type, the “State of Judea” clan – they are the real Tzionim.
There is no point in fighting the state – it exists and won’t disappear. (Which doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t speak out loud and clear when the medinah commits acts that endanger Jews throughout the world.)
But the real danger nowadays lies in those who have completely distorted our beliefs, those for whom “love of the land” has become a militaristic obsession with territory that outranks anything else (such as Shabbos) – remember the settler ‘rabbis’ permitting people to use their phones on Shabbos to warn each other of IDF/Magav approaching to demolish outposts?
edited
Sigh. Here we go again.
Go to the website of “jewsagainstzionism” (not to be confused with “jewsnotzionists”). Also go to the website of “natrina”. (Can’t post links here.)
Plenty of seforim on the issue around. Specifically, “Vayoel Moshe” and “Al HaGeuloh VeAl HaTmuroh”. Then there are tens and tens if not hundreds of other gedolim who mentioned the reasons why a Jewish state is wrong in their seforim and droshos all throughout the years and countries. Too many to name.
@Avi K – honestly I couldn’t care less what Rav Kook says. If you’re looking for those following Rav Kook you’re on the wrong forum. (True, I’m not exactly part of the “yeshiva world” either, but rabbonim of the “yeshiva world” are generally closer to my opinions than to those of Rav Kook – check Rav Shach or Rav Avigdor Miller for example).
You write: “I also heard from Rav Yehuda ben Yishai that there is “erev raviut” – lack of belief in the Geula. As NK continues its denial (I leave whhy to the psychologists) that we are in the beginning of the Geula (atchalta d’Geula) that also fits.”
So you’re categorizing all chareidim under “erev rav”. Thanks for clarifying that.
There is no point in continuing this discussion, why do you keep going on? You are not going to move 1 cm from your position and I am not going to move 1 cm from my position, so why waste your time?
Why am I responding to this again…
@Avi K: Go get a copy of Vayoel Moshe. I’m not going to waste time on this here.
@adams: I am not as radical as they are. My job requires me to work with the Israeli military and security services daily and I have no issues with that. The State of Israel exists and there is no point denying that. (I didn’t vote there, however.)
The danger nowadays, as Health pointed out as well, lies with the ‘true’ Zionists – the type who feel Israel needs to rule over the entire West Bank and Gaza Strip and ship out the Arabs to Jordan. The ones who stir anti-Semitism among the Arabs at every opportunity they get, by burning down mosques and building outposts. Now if that is my main concern, all that does is equate me to the Israeli ‘leftist’ camp. As a matter of fact, my favorite Israeli source of news is Haaretz and my favorite writer there is Gideon Levy, who speaks both in defense of chareidim and Arabs very often. I’m sure you hate Gideon Levy and Haaretz from the bottom of your heart, but have you any idea of how often Gideon Levy has spoken out in defense of chareidim and in opposition to the modern anti-Semitism of secular Israel? You’d be amazed. If there is anyone in Israel you could compare my political opinions to, Gideon Levy and others such as Amira Hass would probably be closest.
I’m a bit sick of people calling other groups “The Erev Rav”. It’s a derogatory slur that everyone feels they are entitled to throw around about anyone else – anyone they don’t like.
Even if one opposes NK, they are harmless. They don’t kill, don’t commit arson, don’t beat people, don’t carry weapons.
Yay, winter is arriving here starting this weekend! Temperatures dropping from 10 celsius to around 1-2 celsius, at night -1. Maybe there will be a real winter after all!
Everyone wants to live in Eretz Yisroel. I don’t want to live anywhere else. We ask Hashem multiple times every day to bring us back to Eretz Yisroel, to restore Yerushalayim.
But that’s the point – we ask Hashem to bring us back. And until the time has come, there is nothing we can do. If people are able to go to E”Y on their own and live happy and healthy lives there, then by all means they should do so.
I recall what the Satmar Rav wrote in Dibros Kodesh: they, the (religious) Zionists, should not be telling us that we lack chibas haaretz. They have no idea what that means.
I’ll let this rest… My blood pressure is already too high. There is no point in continuing this discussion.
ATTENTION EVERYONE: THIS IS A PUBLIC DISCLAIMER:
I just noticed that his book is published by Gefen publishing co. – I want to say that there is NO CONNECTION TO MY 1-YEAR OLD NIECE CALLED GEFEN – REPEAT – NO CONNECTION!!!!!!! We never even heard of them before.
@moi aussi
You can believe whatever you want. However saying “you don’t belong on this forum” is not proper behavior. I didn’t say anything like that to you, did I? Why do you need to take things personally? What is it with some people, particularly Americans, that they cannot separate political / religious opinions from basic human behavior and decency? Why do you feel a need to attack someone merely because they hold a different opinion?
As for your “erev rav” comment: I think it is pathetic to accuse any frum Jews of being the “erev rav”. If you would want to accuse someone of being the “erev rav” I think the Liberals / Reform / Conservatives are a much more likely candidate for that category.
Personally, I think those who go around attacking Arabs and burning down mosques, leading to the international media to report that “Orthodox Jews deface mosques”, constitute the most dangerous type of “erev rav” possible.
Speaking about that – I don’t see a real threat in the State of Israel. When I speak about opposing Zionism, I do not believe the State of Israel should disappear or anything like that. I mean, it really should, maybe, but we all know that’s not going to happen and it’s not a realistic goal, that state exists and it will most likely remain until Moshiach arrives. No, what really deserves our attention and our protest is the actions of the extreme-right wing there who seek every single opportunity to incite the Arabs, to inflame the situation even further. Those who go on Har HaBayis, those who build more and more illegal outposts, those who attack Arabs and mosques, those who spread racism, who love hatred. They are the ones who are truly dangerous.
M or F?
F, depends on the game.
M – waste of time. Question arises, isn’t the YWN CR a waste of time? The answer is “no”, because it’s useful – you become a little wiser from everything you read, you gain some more insight into the world and you sometimes pick up useful information. A game is usually completely useless, with no purpose other than to waste time.
Reading the news or editing Wikipedia or writing on the CR are much more useful activities than playing games. I can’t recall the last time I played a computer game. Video games I never touched at all.
Pretty good indeed… and harmless…
Personally I like imitating various accents. In English my French, German and Italian accents are quite good and in Ivrit, I like the Russian, Ethopian, French-Moroccan and American ones. Picked up some of these at work (by sitting next to a bunch of French-Moroccans for 3 years, for example).
Haven’t read much of his writings myself, but I think I can agree with those who say Boteach is little strange and a little off the beaten track but not across the line.
Personally I think it’s not fitting, but I understand why he did it and there is nothing wrong with it per se.
My personal opinion is that I couldn’t care less – I haven’t got a clue about who the guy was or is supposed to have been and I haven’t got the slightest clue about their religion, except that they believe he was born from a mother who was a virgin and they believe he died and returned and died again and will return again, something like that. I don’t need to know anything else… and actually that’s already too much.
@zahavasdad – you’re right, but in this case (Mike22) that doesn’t seem to apply.
Actually, I am indeed for real. The idea behind my name is that it provides ‘some’ anonimity but not too much.
@Avi K – nobody ever said you’re not allowed to flee. Similarly, nothing prevents Jews right now from fleeing Eretz Yisroel due to the danger of war with Iran. The unstable political / military situation in that area is certainly one of the reasons that contributed to me moving back to Europe. Here the risk of getting a knife in my back or being blown up on a bus or soon having Kassams flying around is a bit lower.
Now, would you care to name one single godol who said people should remain in Europe when the real troubles started? Everyone went as far as they could – those who could, fled anywhere they could: Russia, America, England, Eretz Yisroel – Mir even went to China! Nobody ever said we should sit in one place and let ourselves be slaughtered R”L.
It is absolutely not a problem for people to flee to anywhere they need to – including Eretz Yisroel – when needed. The problem with Zionism lies in the massive, organized nature of it that has absolutely nothing to do with the Nazis. When Herzl started his plans, Hitler was 7 years old (just checked).
Zionism has absolutely nothing to do with saving Jews from the Nazis. What they did was take us from a place where we faced goyim who carried out pogroms and took us to a place of continuous war.
When I was in Eretz Yisroel I saw soldiers everywhere with big guns, huge fences and walls to separate us from the Arabs who want to annihilate us, army bases everywhere and I am lucky I myself was not drafted into that army. The army is handing out gas masks, the country is building emergency shelters, preparing the hospitals to withstand rocket attacks and making sure decontamination facilities for chemical warfare are set up. You call that an improvement over the way Jews live in England, such as here in Gateshead?
Now as for NK: I think they made some errors of judgment in participating in rallies together with Arabs and the like. That is wrong. We should not openly join forces with them. I think it’s completely fine to go around and proclaim to the world that there are frum Jews who oppose Zionism. That is not the same as kissing Ahmedinejad in Teheran. They did go a little bit too far with that. So would you please stop equating me to Moshe Ber Beck and the like now?
“there is ample Gedolim who refute this point. The Avnei Nezer writes that this oath does not apply when the nations give Yisrael permission to return.”
Did he write anything about the UN having a status of a universal beis din? Not that I know. The nations living in the land obviously did not agree.
The others are also refuted… but as I said before, I lack the time to go into these ever-lasting discussions. You won’t move from your stance, neither will I from mine, so what’s the point in these discussions? Let’s just try to focus on what keeps us together rather than that which divides us. We’re still 1 people and we still believe in (the same) Hashem. All these little differences are exaggerated here.
@Avi K –
“2. Only rabbanim associated with microscopic groups like the Eida HaChareidit and NK (if they are considered a Jewish group and not a breakaway, heretical sect) assur voting. All of the rest hold that it is a mitzva. Some even support specific parties.”
Typical Zionism, denouncing the Edah as “microscopic”. I really shouldn’t mention it, but it is simply pathetic, IMHO, to say such things. Satmar alone accounts for tens of thousands; then we have all the other groups affiliated. Based on what, exactly, would you call the combined forces of Satmar, Toldos Aharon, Toldos Avrohom Yitzchok, Dushinsky, Neturei Karta, Spinka, Pshevorsk, the Brisker and Breslover groups that are with the Edah, and numerous others I won’t mention in E”Y and in America…. microscopic?!
“And if its true, as the Gerrer posted so many jews were saved from killed maybe for that it is worth it..”
If you meant me… I’m not a Gerrer… Far from it. Not that I have anything against Gerrer chassidim or the Gerrer Rebbe or, for that matter, anyone else. I’m not into petty politics and infighting.
@Health: “You obviously are clueless -the three Shevuos are a minor problem. The main problem is their Kefira and that they don’t keep the Torah!”
I disagree. Even if the Medinah would consist only of Shomer Shabbos people it is still a treife medinah. Why? Because of the sholosh shvuos. A ‘frum state’ would be like kosher pig. Zionism being wrong has absolutely nothing to do with their being seculars. The problem is in the meridah against the umos ha’olam and the dechikas hakeitz, in the aliyah bechomah. If they would all spend 18 hours per day learning Torah and davening their state would still be out of the question. Frum opposition to Zionism has *nothing* to do with Zionism being secular or religious.
They won’t read it anyway – they don’t care. We do need to read it, davka because we live in a world where unfortunately 99% of Am Yisroel has been corrupted by these feelings (or, you could say, infected by this disease).
It’s not just Zionism – it’s what Zionism led to. Zionism led to Jews feeling they can take control, feeling they are entitled to things. It leads to aggressive organizations such as the ADL, it leads to a completely different mindset, that of the “strong Jew with muscles”. We don’t need muscles. We have our brains, we have our Torah – that is where our strength lies. Our strength does not lie in fitness and kickboxing. (I am not speaking against sports – I am speaking against those who believe they need to protect themselves from goyim by preparing themselves for physical fights.)
We must remember this is golus, here and in E”Y. I, too, have been attacked several times by goyim of Jewish descent R”L; in Yerushalayim, in Bnei Brak, and other places. The answer lies in humility and submission. That is difficult because it goes straight against the human mind – especially the male one. We want to be strong, independent, we want to take care of ourselves, we want to be without fear. But that is not the path the leaders of Klal Yisroel ever took.
In America nowadays, Jewish ‘leaders’ openly attack, ridiculize and mock the President when they disagree with him. I cannot imagine any sane rav agreeing to such behavior.
What you write in your post #91 may be true – maybe he is a victim as well. And there might be a way to repair things and to stay together, though it will be very difficult.
However, I would say the first priority should be to be separate for a while. He should understand that it has gone too far. He needs therapy – and so do you, and the children.
After that, when your mind is clear and the wounds are healing, you can think about the future – with him or without him.
I stand fully behind Health and HaKatan. Unfortunately I don’t have the time to participate in this discussion as actively as they do, but – Health and HaKatan, know that I fully agree with you both.
So do many others I know. We’re not alone, even though sometimes it feels like the entire world has gone crazy, as if they’re all suffering from some sort of contamination that leads them to believe in ridiculous things like Zionism.
I feel that NK do a great job in showing the entire world that not all Jews are Zionists. I have *personally* spoken to Arabs who said that in the past they absolutely hated Jews but, since they heard NK somewhere, they would no longer attack Jews in the streets – because they knew not every Chareidi Jew is a Zionist, and that some are actually anti-Zionist.
NK have saved many (Jewish) lives, not only in Iran, but in Europe as well. I believe NK saved more Jewish lives, with their numbers of 1000 or so, than the Zionists with their 5 million or so (and that’s only the ones inside the Medinah).
@Health: I never read “Perfidy”, but I can recommend the sefer “Efes Biltecha Goaleinu” by the Irgun Natrina which can be downloaded from the website of Natrina, or purchased in decent seforim stores. That, and the short version of Vayoel Moshe (I have the full one as well), and Al HaGeuloh VeAl HaTemuroh, and some of the Dibros Kodesh and numerous other seforim. There’s also an easy-to-read Yiddish version of Vayoel Moshe for those who may read that easier. I wonder when there will be an English translation, it is badly needed.
“Efes Biltecha Goaleinu” has haskomos from several major rabbonim include one who I personally knew in Yerushalayim.
First of all.. GET OUT OF THERE! With the children of course.
I would suggest going to family, like your parents or siblings.
I am shocked… Shouting can happen sometimes, but afterwards one apologizes – and physical violence is completely out of the question. Your husband has crossed all lines, you have to get away from him before he causes more serious and permanent harm to you or your children. They are already severely damaged, and so are you – physically not permanently (I hope), but mentally you are all severely hurt and you will need a lot of time and help to build a new life.
But the first and foremost priority must be that you GET AWAY FROM HIM. Nobody benefits from you staying with him.
I love snow… I wish we would get some heavy snow. So far this is one of the most boring winters ever.
But what good is snow when you don’t have the $$$ to go skiing somewhere (other than maybe a day in Scotland). Well, some snow would be fun regardless.
In Europe, most kosher products don’t have any symbols. We use the lists provided by whichever beis din we rely on. In the UK there is the KLBD, in the Netherlands the NIK, in Germany the ORD, in Switzerland the IGB and IRGZ… And more, and more. I check them all on my phone whenever I need to check something (so I often spend hours shopping…).
I don’t know how it is in the US, but don’t similar lists exist there as well? Maybe the girl was relying on such a ‘kashrut list’ from some beis din somewhere that does include that particular type of chocolate?
@ smartcookie / moi aussi
Yiddish uses the same spelling as German. What you, and this writer, use, is a sad Boro Park corruption of it.
It should be:
????????????
??????????????