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Did you just ask where G-d got his screen name from?
Nechomah- the first time I called Dor Yeshorim, that is what they told me. They said that if a shidduch works out, the two parties involved should directly exchange numbers and call again, just to ascertain that no mistakes have been made.
For something as relatively painless as a two-minute phone call which can avoid a lot of tza’ar later, I would say it’s worth it to double-check (although, as I said, I have not followed my own advice).
CopyMachine- true, but the raw ingredients for a relationship need to be there. I don’t think any two people can get married and make it work…
ocho cinco- a lot of your post is responding to what Yserbius123 said, not me. Please specify who you’re responding to.
In case you didn’t know, I’m a girl.
Obviously singing is not vital to the foundation of a marriage. As someone who loves to sing, I can understand where those who make it a ???? in a shidduch are coming from- but I disagree with them. When I met shadchanim, I used to say it as an aside that it would be a nice bonus if the boy could sing, but not at all a ????. My chosson doesn’t sing, and to be quite honest, it doesn’t bother me. As you said, there are other, much more important things that form the foundation of our relationship.
Look, I’m not a boy, so I wasn’t really trying to give you advice. I know that when a girl is not so attracted to a boy, they will tell her to try to focus on one feature of the boy that she likes, and see if attraction grows from there. From what I understand, boys tend to be more holistic when judging looks.
One thing I do believe is that if it is the right one, attraction will grow, regardless of whether or not the person is objectively attractive. You just don’t want to throw away an opportunity at a shidduch because you are not instantly attracted to the girl. When you like a person, their looks tend to grow on you.
Ocho cinco- that may be true once you’re married, but while you’re dating, it’s very easy to think “could I do better?”, especially if you’ve dated other people before.
From your posts on one of the other threads, it sounds like you don’t subscribe to what you’re saying…
Ocho cinco- just btw, if singing had nothing to do with attraction, then there would be no issur of kol isha.
Oomis’ point was that your requirement of external attributes in general changes over time- whether looks, abilities, etc. (or at least it should, to a mature person).
Also, it sounds like you have a fantasy in your head of what “the one” will look like. Most people have some sort of picture in their head, and they need to contend with it in order to find the right one- because Miss Right is not going to look like Miss Fantasy.
RedQuest, the reason they ask for reconfirmation is to make sure that there were no mistakes made in the transfer of the numbers between both parties. While unlikely, this could possibly happen, especially when the transfer is going through a shadchan.
There is nothing sketchy about this– they always tell you to call again before you get engaged. (Not that I did… oops)
I would think that the girl is more likely to say no to a second date than a boy, but a boy is more likely to say no going forward. I am not saying this based on any evidence; it’s just a feeling. Take it or leave it.
In my personal opinion, it is completely inappropriate for shadchanim to ask for full-length pictures. I don’t know which shadchanim you’re going to… no one ever asked me for that, and I met a ton of shadchanim.
I think the idea of sending a picture at all is not tzniusdik. However, I asked a prominent Rov in Flatbush, and he told me that I should send if asked for one. Therefore, I did not have a photo on my resume, but if a shadchan asked for one, then I would send it. This never happened to me, but I would not have sent a picture if the shadchan had told me outright that s/he was going to send it to a boy. If someone had asked me for a full-length picture, I probably would’ve refused and civilly but furiously ended the conversation.
Look, everyone has their own ideas of what’s normal, but I think that full-length pictures is going very far.
Joseph- I was just kidding. I didn’t mention it to him.
The topic came up because it was pouring on our 5th date, and I wore rain boots. I made some comment about my boots, and he said that he doesn’t want me to hurt my feet, so if I find heels uncomfortable, I shouldn’t wear them.
he only told me because the topic came up- I told him about the thread on YWN about heels:)
Hashemisreading- lol I was waiting for that question. I wore heels on our first 4 dates, then stopped. He told me that he doesn’t care.
I’m 5’3″ and he’s 5’11” 🙂
And I shall ever remain a non-Flatbushy Flatbusher:)
Thanks, Hashemisreading and DY!
Hashemisreading-
I posted the u at the same time as you posted your e. They posted your e first, so it looks like I posted something ridiculous. In reality, I posted the u after the p. I was thinking of “stipulation.”
Joseph, no clue what that is so I’ll ignore it
u
funnybone- there are many, many reasons which could cause a boy not to go to E’Y. In my chosson’s case, I am aware of the reasons, and there is nothing negative involved.
Not including my chosson’s reasons, though, use your seichel- there is one very prominent reason that a boy might not go to learn in E’Y.
writersoul- which supports what I said about different styles of learning and connecting.
Basmelechpenima- academic is by no means a stira to being about growing in avodas Hashem. It CAN be– if the academics are made into the ????. Obviously it says ?? ????? ??? ????? ??? ?????. But just because the ???? isn’t the ????, doesn’t mean that it isn’t important to learn and to know!
Some girls need more hashkafa and less textual learning in order to grow in avodas Hashem. Others internalize lessons best when they learn quickly and learn a lot. Everyone has their own style which is best for them.
Personally, I know that although I love to learn on a high level, I needed a seminary that was not quite as academic in order to shift my focus from the ???? to the ????. If I had gone to BJJ or a similarly academic place, I would’ve been so focused on the academics that I would not have gained as much on a spiritual and emotional level.
CTLAWYER- I just got engaged:)
My parents will IY’H be making a wedding that they can afford. The other side will be taking care of the music, and I am 100% certain that it will be a one-man band- which I am very happy with.
Joseph- thank you so much!
TRUEBT- thank you so much! Amein!
gdovz- I meant in Gemara.
Well, let’s put it this way: B’H I am engaged to a boy who never went to E’Y. It did not affect his shidduchim:)
Bored- not everyone holds of such things, especially in the yeshivish world.
Slifkonian- a lot of MO rabbonim have different shittos on halacha than yeshivish rabbonim. That will lead to different takes on halacha. For example- with regard to tznius (in clothing and between the genders), kashrus, etc. there can be vast differences.
gavra- it was bad word choice, but her question is valid: should she stay away from a YU boy, or let her daughter go out with him?
Avi K- that’s the point; does the girl want to change her shittos in ways that she does not believe are correct? Also, that second point about Nechama Soloveitchik is one example out of thousands and thousands of BY girls.
Yosi7- you could be right. I am going based on my experience with the YU community, which comes on a pretty consistent basis from my cousins’ world.
Just to put things in perspective, my grandfather refers to R’ Yosher Ber as “the Rov.”
I’ll give you examples of my experiences with people affiliated with YU:
– One of my uncles questioned whether the halacha is that the elbow has to be covered, or whether it’s only the forearm. Many of my aunts don’t cover their elbows and knees (not that that’s limited to the YU community at all).
– My uncle taught Gemara to girls for 30 years.
– My cousin got married on Sunday night, and he danced with his kallah in the women’s section. I could not dance at all by 2nd dance- let’s leave it at that.
– My frummest cousin- a solid Michlalah girl who could pass for a Bais Yaakov girl based on appearance and many hashkafos- gives a chaburah to girls, and went on NCSY kollel.
– All of my cousins are Zionists. They also say a mishebairach for the Israeli army every Shabbos.
Contrast that with yeshivish hashkafos, and you’re left with a big divide. This is my own personal experience with YU, though- from what Yosi7 said, it sounds like I’m not all up-to-date with the place.
(studiously ignoring the condescension in your tone)
Well, I’m saying right now that my parents are right, no?:)
cherrybim- that is also true, but again, it’s something you want to check into. What are the boy’s hashkafos now?
Hashemisreading- that’s true. Lol if a boy is entering shidduchim and someone has a ???? about the fact that he didn’t go to E’Y, he could just say, “My mother was scared of the situation there” 🙂
Seriously, though, I know of plenty of people, boys and girls, who didn’t go for that reason.
DY- I meant from my end, since the post was directed at me.
Hashemisreading- the highest heels I have ever worn are 2 3/4 inches, and I’m 5’3″. Most of my friends are taller than me and wear heels that are a minimum of 3 1/2 inches.
As I said, I do wear heels on dates.
I have actually been redt to a couple of YU boys. My father’s family is affiliated with YU, and most of my cousins go there, so the suggestions have come from my aunts. My father told me not to reject them out of hand, since they could be very good boys.
I personally think that yeshivish hashkafos and YU ones are incompatible. A number of my cousins are really solid YU boys, but their whole mentality is different. The entire approach to halacha and hashkafa (especially when it comes to tznius between the genders and Israel) is completely different.
So while I would not say no out of hand if I got a yes from a YU boy, I would be very wary. That is my personal opinion, though, and others are entitled to disagree.
Joseph- I actually agree with you on that one.
Hashemisreading- what is your classification of “such” high heels?
I am the oldest in my family, so yes, my parents do still have plenty of expenses that you don’t have to worry about.
“One can spend money commensurate with their station in life without being a showoff.” True, I’ll give you that. However, there are certain people who would never make an affair to a certain level, regardless of their station in life. I have a friend whose family is wildly wealthy, but they are the simplest people I have ever met. My parents are the type who would not spend their money making a huge simcha even if they were wealthy; it’s just not their style, and not the way they raised me to be.
CTLAWYER
“Hoping to avoid offense or sounding gauche, those who cannot afford to make large and/or lavish affairs often profess to prefer small, intimate and simple affairs.”
Well, I don’t know about sounding gauche, but you did not avoid offense.
CTLAWYER- there are many ways to honor a simcha without spending so much money.
My parents don’t have the money for such things, so I can’t judge people in that position. However, I know that when I go to certain weddings (like my cousin’s last night), I need to resist the urge to throw up at the amount of waste involved. For what??? For one night??
I personally like small, intimate affairs where the simcha is felt by all involved. IMHO, external extravagance often takes away from the appreciation of the simcha itself.
Joseph: through the shadchan- if the boy was stupid enough to make a comment about such an issue.
Then again, I’ve heard similar stories: my friend’s mother told me that after one of her daughters went out on her 6th date, she heard back from the other side that her daughter should get her makeup professionally done before each date. (This is a VERY pretty girl who does her makeup extremely tastefully.) She said no and ran. She did not tell her daughter what had happened, just that it didn’t work out. B’H her daughter met the right one shortly afterward, and the mother then told her daughter what had happened with the previous shidduch.
(The boy was also unhappy that she read the biography of Eleanor Roosevelt, but that was a different story…)
I agree with my friend’s mother on that one- it’s chutzpah. However, from the words of the OP of how “classy” a guy he is, he would probably agree with the boy.
I had heard about a prominent shadchan in Lakewood that he has made over 200 shidduchim. While that is very impressive, he meets hundreds (if not thousands) of boys and girls every year. I know he’s only one person, but if that is the amount of success of one of the most well-known shadchanim out there, then the majority of shidduchim are most likely not being made by professional shadchanim.
Joseph- DY’s point is correct; they don’t have so much to complain about, since their shidduchim go relatively smoothly. They don’t have to go through what we have to go through in order to get dates.
Obviously, there are other frustrations involved for boys, and some of the blame does go the other way. But since girls are in the position of weakness in this equation, it makes sense that a lot more blame is vented at the boys (and specifically their mothers, since they are the ones who take care of their sons’ shidduchim).
golfer- fair point.
It’s very easy to get frustrated and hurt by all the hurdles of shidduchim. When people are in pain, they tend to try to find someone to blame for it. Many boys and their mothers, who, from a girl’s perspective, embody a lot of what is wrong with the shidduch system, are a convenient target.