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answer: they don’t, but you in your small mind are overgeneralizing.
My mikvah has blue soap. My other mikvah has no soap.
The color is not important, the chemical makeup is.My kids like blue slurpee, not raspberry. My kids like red slurpee, not cherry slurpee.
You must be a 4 year old, who should not be going to the mikva.
The mitzvah no longer exists? How can you be oker something from the Torah?
I think our rav said on shabbos that it is an issur dioraisa according to the Gra, and anyways, chazal say if you teach a girl torah, it is like you taught her tiflus. Let them learn that gemara.
Mark my words, google is gog from gog and magog.
The internet and smartphones are as tool of the satan, gaava, and gog.It is unfortunate that we need to use them, but theu are gog and magog.
This drek gets posted, but not a serious discussion.
Whats your problem YWN? You choose to post nonsense, and ignore actual torah issues. Tisbayesh.1. You people will argue about anything.
And its the same arguements every time.
“No, you said the word the, you clearly do know the proper use of the word. Go back to your cave.”
” youre such a zionist.”
“Nobody cares about your opinion troll”
“If you have nothing smart to say dont open your mouth.”
“Apples=apples”
“Huh? Nuh uh apples equals tomatoes.”And on and on.
2. Thank G-d you said tikkun olam. Now we know.
Tikkun olam is a non orthodox concept. There is no such concept in the Torah. Well, at least not how you mean it.What a chiddush, do you mean to say that the democratic party is more in line with tikkun olam?
Genius, the entire concept of tikkun olam was made up by liberal jews. Of course their party will “be more in line with tikkun olam.”I would also highly recommend that you find daas Torah where it can actually be found. You won’t find it in the coffee room.
1. You need a filter to use the internet. When you have the ability to connect to everything, without limitations, its a problem.
2. Does google home not involve using a screen at all?
(3. There is a separate issue when it comes to a google home device, etc, and that is, if Moshe Rabeinu saw you using it, he would think it is an avodah zara. An inanimate object that all you do is talk to it and ask it for things? Seems like the physical manifestation of an avoda zara, albeit not one that people are actually serving knowingly, but are unknowingly giving chizuk to the concept of avoda zara.)
I just read Rav Kook’s hesped speech for the first time.
1. It seems that he is saying towards the end that the zionist movement is anti Torah, and halevai would not be against the torah if they would work with the torah…. I think is what he said…
2. Avi k- he did not say that the state or herzl is mashiach ben yosef…..why do you need to continuously put words into people’s mouths?? he said very clearly that herzl was the ikvisa demishicha. THAT DOES NOT MEAN MESHICA!!! I know that you will ignore this point, as you have only done just that in the past.3. But either way, good news! it seems clear from what he writes, that this dichotomy between the two different sides is above all pratim and specifics when it comes to proving your position! you can come up with whatever svaras, or proofs that you want, but it doesn’t matter.
It is all about the chiluk between the bechina of mashiach ben yosef and mashiach ben dovid. since the two sides are vastly different, although they both work towards the geula, they cannot get along.Im not being sarcastic at all. Please do not think that I am.
manitou, avi k, anonymous, etc,- i can understand that maybe joseph will not consider rav kook to be a valid source. That is Joseph’s issue.
but If YOU DO hold rav kook to be a valid source, it should give you an understanding as to why some may be so vehemently opposed to the state of israel, as those feelings are coming, validly, from the bechina of mashiach ben dovid.
We can now understand how there are two different sides, with both strong and important opinions, and they do not contradict each other, because they are both working towards mashiach.Do you not agree with this? nobody should be attacking people when they say things against the state of israel, because we should know that it is only coming from bechinas mashiach ben dovid.
perhaps you will continue to argue, saying nope, they are just reshaim, and then you will have missed the point completely. You will not be hearing the words of your own rebbe, Rav kook Ztz”l.
We want Mashiach now, and along with Mashiach, Shalom
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As usual anon1mous you have lied again. Your entire point was from the mishna that talked about davening for shlom malchus.you are living in your own fantasy land
regarding this guy anonymous….he really needs a slap in the face to wake him up.
he continues to push his points, even where we don’t argue! he is in his own fantasy world, not reality.
He is talking to himself, not to anybody else, because he is not responding to anything that anyone else is saying?HAKARAS HATOV
I would posit to say that even Joseph will agree with me that we should have hakaras hatov to the army for protecting jewish lives in Eretz Yisrael, correct Joseph?
NOBODY IS ARGUING ON THAT. STOP BRINGING IT UP!!
PRAYER FOR THE WELFARE OF THE STATE
let’s daven for the welfare of the state, Joseph I think would also agree that we should daven for the welfare of the state, as their are so many jewish lives hinged on the state. We should daven that the state is protected, and that people there should upkeep the Torah.
That has nothing to do with instituting a tefillah into davening, bkviyus. The mishna doesnt say to do so.
Nobody is arguing on this point, not me or you, exept that you for some reason need need need it to be put into davening! ok, so you NEED it in davening, we don’t, and on the contrary we perhaps “feel” that there are reasons to leave it out, THAT DOES NOT MEAN WE ARE AGAINST A TEFILLAH FOR THE STATE, in our own davening to Hashem.
I have a strong feeling that you will either say that this post was a personal attack, or twisting the Torah, as those are the only responses you have given so far. Or perhaps you would yet again say that frum jews need to have hakaras hatov also.
if you do so, you will confirm that you are just trying to argue, but not get anywhere.
manitou- you dont hear yourself. grow a pair of ears.
“nobody is obligated to put their lives on the line to defend you.”
but the chareidim ARE obligated to defend YOU?I can agree with you that they should logically share the burden. Don’t twist a gemara or a teshuva to fit with that logic though. Don’t attempt to prove your position from chazal or Torah, if your real position is based off logic.
And now, we know that logic is not infallible. Why are you convinced that your logic is?
btw I live in NY, I have zero obligation to be in the army, I am an american citizen and do not live in Israel. Dont pass off your nonsense on me.
do you even hear yourself? jews were fighting each other so we stopped. what do you call this entire conversation?
anonymous-manitou-avi k,
your childishness astounds me. you approach every topic of discussion in an extremely superficial and childish way.
Since you decided to bash the gedolim, anonymous, I will respond to you.
One thing about gedolim is that they actually understand the Torah that they learn, and don’t twist it to meet their own agendas.Where does the mishna you quoted state that there needs to be a tefilla instituted into davening to pray for the welfare of the state? That IS what you are trying to prove. All it says is that you should daven. Nobody would disagree with that.
your tactics are actually quite sick. you leave people thinking that you gave a valid answer, when it is just classic sheker, the kind with a smidge of somewhat emes, to trick anyone who hears it.
we know that deep down you guys are against the charedim out of hate, as has been shown very clearly.
I love eretz yisrael, the state, and the yidden there, frum or secular.you cant bring yourself to love a yeshivishe or chareidi yid.
so sorry for you
The summary of this entire thread- if you are gonna open your mouth, at least say something valid, dont pervert the Torah and every statement of chazal that you find.
avi k- you said the gemara about lifum gamla shichana was talking about LGBT and others. shameful.
be a whatever kind of jew you are, just don’t pervert the gemara!what is happening manitou?
you resort to being nasty, yet again ignoring all that I have said.
You responded to my point, yet ignored it. Amazing.
The gemara is saying that a person gets a burden appropriate for them. How can you force a certain burden on someone, when it is against what the gemara is saying?
Regarding your constant answer of it being logical, many times there are logical ideas brought forth in Chazal, which are then thrown out because it simply does not make a difference, the mitzvah is the mitzvah, the halacha is the halacha. For example, at the beginning of makkos, with bitalta eidim zomemim.logic alone, is good to follow. logic vs. torah, is not.
all the chukim are not logical. according to you, why do them?manitou-
first your arguement was that its a mitzvah to have the army because it is a milchama.
after being shown that to be false you said it is a mitzvah to save lives.
after being shown that not the entire army is necessary to save lives, you moved onto it being logical, share the burden.
after I showed you that to share the burden is not a thing, and fakert, its the opposite, chazal says ,”according to how much a person can take, that is what he needs to carry,” you say that I am the one who is swithc and baiting?
puhleezemanitou-
i am sure you can respond to all points. by ignoring some, you accept their validity.
3. The gemara says לפום גמלא שיחנא, which means that according to the camel, the burden. A person is not expected to do things that is too much for them. Share the burden as of yet does not have a makor in Torah, except for a physical package weighing down an animal.when did i say torah is in place of the army? once again, like a liberal, you accused me of something YOU did
Regarding sharing the burden.
1. Do you mean like communism? Thats what share the burden means. Pirkei avos already said, that what’s mine is yours and what yours is mine, is a bad middah.2. Kol yisrael areivim zeh lazeh does not mean share the burden. It means we need to make sure we all keep the mitzvos. Do you believe in such a concept? It is much more important for us to bring jews to keeping the Torah rather than put them in a situation where, like I said, the majority go off the derech. As i have mentioned, of all my friends that have been in the army, are no longer frum. Most of them are partiers and go to clubs and raves every night. Im talking about kids who grew up in monsey.
3. The gemara says לפום גמלא שיחנא, which means that according to the camel, the burden. A person is not expected to do things that is too much for them. Share the burden as of yet does not have a makor in Torah, except for a physical package werighing down an animal.
Right, so once again its all about feelings. I can also believe that it is the aschalta digeula, and I do, that does not change my opinion about the army. Of all the people that I know that have joined, family and friends included, are no longer frum, in fact, they are anti frum.
That is something that can be seen with the eyes. It isnt a hope, pr a dream, its reality. People go in and come out less or not frum. The risk is high, benefits are low.
And Once again, once they have filled their quota, there is no need for more draftees. Why put someone in the army that will not do anything to protect the country, like you said, they are only in the army for the sake of being in the army.Once again.
I am not satmar. I dont want a single yid to die anywhere.
I am happy there is a jewish state, and would love to live there.Now, what is your response to the 20 to 60 question? Feelings are not involved here. 20 to 60 is not a feeling.
Its amazing how liberals will turn around what you are saying and accuse you of the very thing that they are being accused of.
It has already been said that that you are the one without a halachic source.
I have never learned any shittos of satmar, and to be honest, am not a fan of satmar at all.Mima nafshach-if its a jewish state, jewish laws should apply.
If they should be sent to the army, it should be at 20 and older.
If its not considered a state bound by halacha, why should people go to the army? Just like any other army that we wouldnt say dina dimalchusa dina, go to the army. We would try to avoid it, because it disrupts our ability to live a normal life, and it is dangerous.i posted that it seems thag avik and ziongate are the same person, and ywn did not post it. This is not a free speech place, it is worse than any jewish media outlet there is.
Ywn is not michapes the emes. Hence they are tomchei sheker vikazav.
There is something seriously wrong with you people.
What is your response about the 20 to 60 requirement?
Limud hatorah helps the entire world. Only an apikores says a learner learns for himself. -rambam? Chazal? (One of those)
Ok, im not satmar, but im still seeking responses to my points
Ziongate, where is your post about rav shteinman? I only see one remotely similar by avi k.
Are you the same person?Anon1mous- ok, so it is pikuach nefesh. Why does that mean if they decide to band together an army, for pikuach nefesh, that it is an army of klal yisrael that everyone needs to join? It is for pikuach nefesh alone, hilchos melchama do not apply to a case of pikuach nefesh.
And again, even if it would be a real halachic army, it would only be ages 20 to 60. How can you force them at 18 and still claim mitzvah?
1. My rebbes cousin was 19-20.
2. I dont know what your first question is asking, or having to do with what i said.
3. What horaas shaa? And even if there was a horaas shaah, wouldnt it have been out of fear of what people would say? Isnt that your stance on the gedolim, that what they say isnt trustworthy because they listen to whatever their company tells them to do?
4. What is your response to the point about the fact that the idf isnt serving the purpose of protecting klal yisrael, but rather anyone who is in the borders of israel?Since when is your mother jewish?
Avi k- you compared the current gedolei hador to meraglim.
Dus iznt neies.I forget the source. Is it the gemara?or the rambam…not sure
…anyways, it says “what is considered an apikores? Someone who says that talmidei chachamim only learn for themselves. ”Idiots. Am haaratzim.
Apikorsim….First bring a makor where gezel shaina is mentioned by chazal as even something considered stealing miderabanan. Then we can talk more.
Did you just turn eighteen and started waking up, or have youbeen asleep your whole life? This is an extremely old topic of discussion.
It’s noy, or nuhye not nai. If you are sefardi it is nai.
Laskern, are you saying that it is pronounced eLOkai?
Just daven that klal yisrael should be zocheh to win this lottery.