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” …don’t suggest there is any reason to deny women the right to light candles if that is their preference.”
That line makes no sense. We don’t do things based on our preference unless Halacha dictates that it relies on our preference. I find your posts very confused (not confusing). On one hand you reprimand anyone who is unkind toward others while at the same time speak very negatively about anyone who is doing things that you consider ancient, discriminatory or excessive.
What gives? While some of your posts are very respectful toward Rabbaim and Torah, in other posts your attitude toward religion is highly critical and accuses Torah of being anti women. Well it isn’t. And doing things because you want to isn’t the way the real world works. If your mesorah dictates choice then so be it, but we weren’t having a halachik discussion so saying nobody gave sources is ludicrous.
If you are an acclaimed oncologist who forever views herself as a brain surgeon wannabe then I feel very sorry for you.
yet more evidence that slonimer is non other than Joseph (who for a couple years seemed to have been happy posting only as himself)
The OP’s question is a troll post, asking how to tell girls they don’t light when not all girls don’t light. But our esteemed posters seemed equally “off” by answer that they do, which is just as incorrect. SOME do, and SOME don’t. You follow your rov. And the idea that we have some sobbing females not able to realize their role in the lighting if they don’t have their own match (for those who don’t) smells just like those women crying that they can’t say kaddish. (sorry GH, it isn’t always a negative to let women be yotzei mitzvos thru their husbands or fathers)
If you are not able to raise your daughters with the understanding that they have different roles in Torah observance than their brothers, who have different roles than their sisters, then you have much more serious issues than this particular one.Right, Joseph. Your sweeping generality must be true because He knows you can’t possibly be an extremist
just a way of being patronizing under the guise of being kind so it will go unnoticed by many or most. A bit passive aggressive and a touch of disingenuity.
it might be helpful if you proofread, I’m not really sure what the above post was supposed to say.
You are obviously accustomed to standing before audiences of lowly, unlearned individuals but you may want to change your perspective. We are peers, learned and observant for the most part and we are not sitting around in a classroom. There are individuals who seem curious to hear what you have to say and have asked you direct questions, hoping you will actually answer them. Addressing us as your audience is a bit off putting, and circumventing the actual questions is just more of the same. Maybe seeing yourself as an equal and addressing those who have addressed you will be worth a try.
I would spit if I could but it wouldn’t get approved
are you joseph? do you find yourself fashioning your threads and posts after his style?
as an afterthought – I agree pretty much with the article portion you posted. I would have preferred you left out the rest.
got the first part, but confused about the second part (not sure if there’s a typo, word missing or it’s just me). ‘I didn’t expect much of a thread to result’
If you mean that you didn’t expect much, then why be disappointed that you didn’t get much? I think if you would have thrown in a couple lines of opinion as an intro (you always seem pretty articulate and expressive) then it would have put a context for people to agree or disagree with. Maybe this way people would have to just agree or disagree with Rabbi Lopiansky, which wouldn’t be nearly as fun as arguing with you.
Being bothered by peripheral talk, however, is just kinda silly. a) there’s no post number limit b) it’s always interesting to see what is on people’s minds c) that’s what we do here, we share.
Does that help put anything in perspective? Cuz honestly, there are few things or people I would want to speak about LESS than sc. but I hate MO vs chareidi arguments cuz nobody cares about the good things the other side has to offer, just the faults, and I don’t find those conversations valuable or engaging.
It is nice to see you join the fray tho,
and not sure why you discount one of the only ones who responded to the article itself.
Sorry for not playing out your fantasies, maybe it wasn’t much of a draw. Maybe try an opening paragraph instead of a cut and paste.
I was wrong, I stand corrected. I don’t listen to his music but I am strongly disappointed by this information .
and by the way, I mean not google or heresay….
“Fact is though, that he did. He even played and sang some.”
Fact or strong possibility? If it is a fact, are you able to point me to it so I can verify it? I’d like to take it back to someone.
not sure how you know it isn’t true. I heard that from a pretty reliable source as well. Just regarding his music.
not an insult, just making a point that having the same components as the topic does not necessarily make it on topic.
” Sorry if I come off too strongly……. it’s just too much of a stretch for me to accept.”
so don’t accept, there’s nothing wrong with that. Not accepting my view isn’t really a reason to be strong, I just experienced that from a friend, only tenfold, and am still trying to wrap my head around it.
I can respect you regardless of whether or not we agree, and I do. I am just floored to hear a frum yid say that about the land of E”Y as if it can really possibly be just another clump of geography with stats and numbers like any other in the big scheme of things. Never heard it said, and it shook me. But you aren’t alone so it must be a ‘thing’ (as my kids say)yes joseph, which is what she said.
Neville, what does logic have to do with a Jew’s reality?
Feel free to live that way if you’d like. I don’t see how it is possible, feasible or even okay to remove hashgacha from the picture and then re-assess. And of course you bring up gaza, which I pretty clearly stated is exactly what I WASN’T talking about.
When people compare apples and oranges, pretending they are also talking about smoothies is just being joseph.Joseph – false. she did not say USA is galus, she said that although we are enjoying our stay in the USA, THIS is galus. This time period is galus so it doesn’t matter that we FEEL safe because we are in Gd’s hands only.
And blah blah blah to the rest. I think you have lost your passion for trolling and you don’t sound like even you believe your contortions.
Sorry Avi, you are right.
Joseph, your mantra is just a way to be inciting. You ignore the fact that she specifically said “Medinas Israel is occupying the space Hashem has promised to us as Eretz Yisrael” and you seemingly ignore the very fact that the land carries it’s own kedusha. It boggles my mind that anyone would think that they do not have more siyatta dishmaya on that land than in Uganda. Walking on that ground is a mitzvah. To forgo so many mitzvos for the sake of feeling “safe” (which is a joke since safety is not a physical state of being separate from Hashem’s hand) is silly.
Every second a yid is alive is only thru Hashem’s will. Do you really think you can discuss where you would be “safer” as if it is a geographical consideration? And before you decide to ask me if I mean that living inside an erupting volcano is the same as living in a guarded palace, save your breath. I’m not conversing with the devil’s advocate.I believe your view of American anti-Semitism and physical safety is very naive, and given your description of Israel as a “war zone” I believe your view of there is about as realistic as that of a Boro parker’s view of Detroit. : ) and in support is your illustration of American safety by claiming that there will be no return of Hitler y”sv, as if that is the only scenario that would render us unsafe. Sounds like a lot of drama, headline talk.
Regarding speechless – I meant shock/surprise, not controversyspreadthetruth – you are an interesting cross between joseph and kj, but your last post is so contrived that it is almost funny. Do you make these things up or are you repeating something someone else made up?
Syag: Which part is controversial? There is more terrorism in Israel than the US; since when did facts become controversial opinions?
who said anything about controversy, and why would my comment be on terrorism when that wasn’t even mentioned in the original post?
Gosh Neville, I’m speechless. I had no idea there were sane Jews with that viewpoint. Maybe reality just holds different meanings for different people.
☹“Do you really believe that ChabadShluchas (for example) beliefs are truly outside the pale of Yiddishkait?”
Are you really asking that? YES. For 18 pages that is the resounding consensus you have been hearing from several posters. YES
“You sound like you’re reading one of those scripted “documentaries” of people who left Yiddishkait (lehavdil, I’m not comparing) with an axe to grind”
just curious, was that an expression of support to an obviously pained, suffering soul who had a very traumatic experience, or somewhat an expression of frustration at the negativity he is expressing toward Chabad?
I think most readers are able to see the difference between posts that come from scholarship and those that come from pain and the main focus towards pained and suffering individuals should be mercy and tefillos only and always, regardless of how their words reflect personally.” I think that is over the top”
So is telling someone they lack chashivos to tsaddikim and gedolim. And inexcusable. And unfortunately giving mechila to someone would require them acknowledging what they did wrong, being remorseful and vowing not to repeat it so…well I guess Halacha isn’t on your side.
I don’t know you to know that ‘pas nisht’, but I can tell you that the minimum I would expect from someone in kiruv is patience, respect and a lack of such inexcusable personal insults.CS – although you did not take responsibility or seem concerned about insulting someone to the extent that you will not receive mechila, thank you for at least not pretending you didn’t do it. Thank you also for this comment – ” and now that I’ve quoted you halacha, you will obviously not disagree, but you don’t understand how this level of respect can go with not serving A”Z cvs. If that’s the case, then just say you don’t understand this. And any of us will be happy to explain as there is a well known maamar called byom Ashtei asar that addresses this.” which finally gave me the 100% clarity on why the shluchim are sent to places where there are no yidden familiar with Torah.
I am left with no choice but to daven for the awakening of the ones whom you have “helped” with these teachings. I never would have thought such could be the case but you have done a superb job of explaining what is going on. And as much as you want and wish it to be so, it is not lack of understanding, emunas chochomim or anything else you would like to accuse me of.
.” In fact, for me, it is more surprising you don’t take Rebbeim and tzaddikim more seriously Maybe because as mentioned, tzaddikim seem to be in short supply nowadays, so you weren’t raised with this concept? ”
Your defense mechanisms are in full force, I see but your above statement regarding my personal levels of emunah is crossing a line. You want to comment on my impression or my beliefs go ahead, but that was a disgusting attempt to reclaim your post, and you will get no mechila. It brings to question whether or not you are actually someone on shlichus who would never dare to stoop so low to a fellow yid.I also mean no disrespect but if you will compare your words to 5ish, or even SH in some places you will see a distinct difference between “I would rather not discuss it” and denial. Your words for leaving sound somewhat empty. even tho I agree that it may not be what you hoped for, to ask people to say it is logical but just not for them would require a presentation of logic. Unfortunately, presenting a religious doctrine whos only base is that the leader himself told you to believe it defies logic, and arguably is halachically problematic. Maybe not lubavitch, perse, but certainly that which you have presented.
Comments like this – “it is too much for the litvishe world as a whole to take in one foot, ” – are inappropriate, condescending, and sound more like someone who would rather not find out they are standing on air than someone who is not making their point well.
And to answer SH before he comes in and asks me if this was directed at him, all of Chabad, all of lubavitch or all of his decendants…….the answer is no. Unless they prescribe to CS’s beliefs and shittos.
MC – I am not arguing with you but I will disagree strongly. In my own opinion, I don’t see you having gotten loads of nasty comments. I see you have used some pretty strong and POSSIBLY “in your face” language which rebounded with strong responses. I have also seen some isolated, wounded posters who I disregard because they are separate from the conversants, and lastly, I – in my own opinion – noticed you calling out every disagreement to the Rebbe’s words as hateful and insulting when I don’t know that they were either intended that way, or even were that at all. But it would certainly contribute to you feeling surrounded by it.
SH – it may seem that way to some, but to me, it’s people
I think unfortunately you have proved sechels point quite well, that you are just not open to really learning and listening.
how insulting and naïve. really! you have the chutzpah to call a room full of people not open to listening because they wouldn’t use your own sources to prove the validity of those same sources. You have gotten much respect and response from too many people for you to start degrading us with the title of closed minded. Perhaps we are just not hearing anything in your lectures that speaks truth or Torah true. Is it okay for us to open our minds to your lectures and come out understanding that we don’t believe it to be correct? How open minded are you really if you think that our disagreement can only be from not listening?
Your statement reminds me of the crook and his accomplice who were caught by the police. The police said to the first crook, “do you have an alibi?” and the crook responds, “I’m innocent sir”, and he points to the accomplice and said, “just ask him, he’ll tell you”,
Before you jump, I am NOT (NOT NOT) comparing your derecho to crooks, I am trying to illustrate that asking the source to give his own reference report is not valid.
Lubavitcher chassidim believe The Rebbe is Moshiach because The Rebbe teaches that The Rebbe is Moshiach. Period and of sentence full stop.
5ish – assuming you are Lubavitch and assuming you are the mentsch you appear to be I am asking this only to you and with full sincerity. Given the above quote of yours, is it therefore hard to understand why someone who is not lubavitch would have a problem with that, given that our Torah sources need always be outside of just a person declaring himself IT?
Sechel –
“The nasty sly comments, digs and cutting remarks that are being fired, but with a big smile, against misnagdim (as you’ve declared me) ”
Was it me who called you a misnaged?That was mainly directed toward MC and CS. misnaged seems to be used in Chabad as everyone who doesn’t subscribe to Chabad, which is not a fair use of the word. it is also in the negative form and on this thread, seems to have a derogatory tone thrown in.
Additional point, when someones say, “I disagree with your last comment” and you say, “Why are you against Chabad”, that seems to cause a bit more ‘drama’ than necessary
Seichel Hayashar – specifically to you I would say that your cutting remarks make more sense now that you have revealed your age. Without that info I certainly pictured you to be at least a decade older ( I mean that as a compliment). Although it does appear at some points that you are telling people to be quiet so as not to reveal Chabad secrets to us simpletons, at other times you seem genuinely frustrated at what is being said in the name of lubavitch. and considering the beliefs you have expressed, I can’t say I blame you. Which brings me to the question of – why is it that there does not appear to be a single lubavitcher on here that agrees with your hashkofos?
I believe that you (unintentionally) are causing Hashem much agmas nefesh and I will call you out on that. I have respect for you as a fellow Yid and a Lubavitcher, but I have no respect for the part of you that thinks that doing what you’re doing is somehow being moisif Kavod to the RSH”O. Which is exactly what I and some others have done as well and were called haters and bashers. I’m sorry if some of you don’t understand why Lubavitch ways are (even more clearly now) problematic to many of us but you all should be willing to accept and respect that in the same context as SH’s comments above. It is not fair for people standing up for Torah to be called haters for having hashgofic disagreements and (generally) stating so respectfully.
The posts that are hateful are obviously so, and can be discounted by both sides. The nasty sly comments, digs and cutting remarks that are being fired, but with a big smile, against misnagdim (as you’ve declared me) is much more hate filled than legitimate disagreement with a derech that goes contrary to what we know to be right. If I disagree with you, even if I believe that your ways are black and white knegged Torah, that STILL does not give you the right to call me a hater of Chabad. one has nothing to do with the other.{Standing ovation emoji}
While I cannot disagree regarding the opening post, it isn’t YWN that is scaring me at this point.
SeichelHayashar- I read your whole post waiting for the part where you apologize to a hurting bachur for possibly accusing him wrongly of lying. Never came. What a let down.
Moshiachchat-there are halachik issues with cutting and pasting posts from other sites without credit. And if it was your own post from another site, at least fudge it up a bit to reword the questions so that they match ones that were actually posted, and swap the usernames from the other site with local ones. And once you’ve proved yourself disengenuine, try becoming suddenly trustworthy, not a simple task, I can assure you.
” Let’s say that your account is true, ( I do find it hard to believe, because there are very few non Chabad kids in Chabad Yeshivas.) why would your parents have sent you to the wildest most off the wall “Yeshivas” in North America? ”
That post is unfair. To accuse a boy of lying because you cannot envision his situation is not an appropriate justification. I don’t think this suspicion toward posters is fair. I can think of a handful of reasons why he may be in his situation. And if he is living in some corner of yehopitzville where there are only him and a handful of meshichists, he can’t just “head off” somewhere else. I think we need to be a bit more supportive and empathetic and a bit less suspicious.
Outside of this one case, that advice really does not apply to you, SH, as you have been respectful, but calling every sound argument against Chabad teachings “hateful posts” is wrong. There are very legitimate reasons why people have tainas against Chabad and getting lectured on it is not obligating anyone to change their mind. If anyone is being hateful (besides GH’s typical), look at the digs and “jokes” putting down non lubavitch that CS keeps throwing out that have thus far gone without much public protest.
So enough of the calling racist. You can explain yourselves and take questions, and accept that many points being presented go against Torah as we know it, and we have an obligation to say so. Yes, each chassidus believes their rebbe is THE rebbe, but not one of them has trouble with others being in their own derech. So it’s not the same, it’s very specific to Chabad, and just as you defend the derech you are on, you can expect no less from us.
And lastly, I have to say that all that I have heard in these explainations have done more damage to my view of lubavitch’s authenticity than any yellow flag waving nutcase who lives on my block. Except for Seichel Hayashers balanced interjections, this thread has enlightened me to the extent that this lubavitch lifestyle you describe is much less connected to Judaism than I would ever have dared think on my own.
No bad side, just felt you were taking the r’ elyashiv ztl example and making a point with it. No, they may not be quoting r elyashiv but the real topic was other gedolim or talmidei chachamim besides just their own RY, which they certainly do. And they ca even ID rabbeim from the chassidishe velt. Over focusing on it being about rev elyashiv diluted the point.
Nice to see ya again, stay a bit this time.
“Do you really think Belzers, Satmars, Bobovers, etc would quote HaRav Eliyashiv either?”
Oh please, Neville
You know that wasn’t the point. Don’t take a specific and pretend someone meant it as a klalwhat an offensive post to every baal tshuva and their family. and yes, even those lowly ones who may accidentally mention a tv show and hope for a snicker.
I’m wondering if perhaps this isn’t the right audience for your responses.
5ish – you shouldn’t say “we”. You have never, in any of your postings, conveyed any type of snobbery, condescention or superiority. You have always been kind and thoughtful and nothing about your posts would resemble these.
“There is an advantage to families being compatible, if I would’ve married into a gezhe family, I wouldn’t feel my parents are on equal footing with my supposed in laws and that can get awkward.”
if my kids felt that way about me it would be a lot worse than awkward, it would be downright hurtful. Who encourages such a caste system? I didn’t believe it when the poster said it, but anyone who can speak like this about their own parents…wow. They must be very proud of the path you’ve chosen.
Honestly, Chabad encompasses all kinds of people on all kinds of levels, because of who the Rebbe is. The lack of familiarity of other leaders within klal yisrael, for the most part, is not because we like to segregate ourselves, it’s just that there is so much going on within Lubavitch that we have our heads full keeping up with that.
For example, I would probably never quote R’ Elyashiv, not because I don’t think he’s great, I’m sure he is, and I know he’s a major figure in the litvishe world, but I’m still trying to keep up with saying my daily Chitas (portions of Chumash Tehillim and Tanya) and learning a sicha and or maamar of the Rebbe several times a week, which doesn’t leave me time to look into other things.
I feel chassidus empowers my avodas Hashem and I can’t get enough of it. I should add I have two young kids to look after so it makes for enough to fill up my time:) or even more, my concentration.speechless.
I won’t go so far to say your post is condescending, but I would have a hard time believing it rings true even in your own ears. Unless you just believe we are very, very simple people.
And btw, I have 9 of my own and somehow have time and energy for all kinds of things, B”H. I must be an anomolyits very sad that you characterize it that way. setting aside the nasty posters who show up everywhere there were some very real questions and concerns asked about some very real concepts and behaviors displayed, some that present themselves as serious apikorsus issues. Instead of addressing them, informing the public, putting the claims to rest finally, we just start screaming “hatred! finger pointing! anti Chabad!” rhetoric. I have asked some of these questions many many many times both here and in real life and I get nothing. we are allowed to question other people about what they do but if Gd forbid someone is concerned about Chabad minhag that they deem problematic, instead of settling the matter you throw the race card.
GH, who rarely speaks kindly of frum communities, somehow was extolling their virtues even to what I consider dangerous lengths. to call it torah true yiddeshkeit when some are unfortunately learning that they await the second coming of their rebbe as moshiach, ch”v is not torah true. and if it isn’t the case, stop avoiding the issue by calling me hateful and just explain it. This is real lifeexperiences guys, real life, not stuff on two burnt people rumored.“Left us? He went on vacation? Why can’t you just say it normally – the day he passed away, his yahrtzeit.
And why don’t you say the Rebbe “zt”l”??”I am very much hoping you get a response instead of a “YWN hates Chabad” deflection.
Yahrtzeit of the rebbe, I think