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I would say you owe Neville an apology. He has done nothing to indicate he is having a good time, waiting to pounce or anything else. He has defended you from people who were ranting and he has refrained from calling out anything that wasn’t VERY clearly backed up by your own words. You say you won’t address his last post, which is just a cut and paste of YOUR own words…is that another way of skirting? What other reason could you possibly have for turning on someone who has been asking you to clarify your own comments? Looking for trouble? Just a rude diversion. Very uncalled for. Very unfair.
allegedly
I actually appreciated the chofetz chaim referenced. What I didn’t appreciate was the lack of equal treatment to the Rebbe.{wide eyed emoji}
gosh Neville, that was the saddest post I’ve read in a long time. Not this last one, the one before that.
regarding the last post, specifically:
As for the hostility, yeah, welcome to the internet. I started out here occasionally trying to get people to be more “civil,” but eventually I gave up
Exactly what I did. I gave up but am not embarrassed about doing it(nor should you be, I respected you tremendously for it). As you can see I show up on rare occasion again when I see people having those parallel arguments but, like you said, I am rarely successful. Not because people are too hostile or hateful, more because people didn’t get what I was trying to do. When I point out to someone that they are so heated that they are not hearing the other side, or when I try to point out to someone that the posts they claim are attacks are not really angry, I get accused of taking sides. Even if I don’t have an opinion on the topic! How many times has Joseph accused me of random disgusting hashkofos because I disapproved of the tone of the attacks. As if nobody would think you could possibly support someone or defend someone you disagree with.
So don’t give up! Even if only a handful of us hear you or join you, it’s not a lost cause. Just a lonely one.
Stuart – I find a lot of hostility in the CR.
I used to think so too, especially when the Zionist/anti Zionist threads were alive. I know realize that it’s not always so hateful when you try reading it again later without the “moment”. And I also realize there is more ignorance and anxiety than hate. Nobody wants you to be right because then they are wrong. And nobody wants to be wrong because then they may need to change. (my personal thoughts)Stuart- correct, you are not knee deep in MO doctrine, it appears to be in self-assureness. Since most posts have been what you know and why we should accept that you know it (you can check it out yourself) without displays of openness to another opinion there wasn’t much more i could add.
cute. it wasn’t meant as a put down. Just as you told WinnieThePooh that she didn’t know what Daas Torah meant (was that a put down?) even though she was referring to the concept regardless of the wording, I was pointing out that you may not either. And I quoted the words you used to indicate exactly what you said that proved the point. Perhaps you jumped too quickly?
“which is to rely on Rabbis to decide EVERYTHING for you”
You, as well, seem to be unclear on what daas torah really means. Outside of what you belive it means, or what you would like to think it means.couldn’t get to a computer early enough to explain while it still was relevant – sorry.
Was just saying that thievery done by Jews is not Theivery done for Judaism, or Torah. Islamic Terrorism is terror that the perpetrators believe/state/teach is done FOR the sake of Islam. for example, a mass rally to get stores to stop selling something assur could be a Jewish rally. An individual who is frum doing something that his rebbe said was okay is not to support/defend or uphold Torah and therefore the adjective does not apply.Well if that’s not a case of the pot calling the kettle black! wow. So when posters don’t accept the Rebbe’s own words as sources for his words it’s about denial, closemindedness, and animus. But when someone CLARIFIES a chofetz chiam that S/HE HIMSELF/Herself brought in to the discussion, it’s all of the sudden a case of distortion and cover up. RSo has probably been the most objective and informed of posters on this thread. Asking him/her to change because you don’t like what he has to say is disengenous.
Haimy – those types of arguments are better to have AFTER bevoming informrd, not before. There are people walking around in certain communitoes with the measles virus. They seem to have magically spread the virus to others in their and other communities. Is that part the myth? Or are you pretending that none of those communities have infants too young to vaccinate (as toi said), chemo patients (who are out and about), transplant recipients on immunosuppressive medication, people with weak immune systems or elderly? Are they just pretending to be at risk and “paranoid” or do they not really exist in the first place?
RSo – that was exactly my point regarding the diploma moshol.
There is so much semantics involved in some of these answers that points, whether right or wrong, seem to be fetting lost. For instance, and i will use a totally random topic for the sake of neutralty, CS says we should all demand chcolate cake for dessert, and when someone redponds that we should ask not demand she replied, “So you think chocolate cake is bad? So you think i dont want you to have it?”
The fact that people say we should daven for moshiach instead of demanding it is NOT the same as saying we don’t think it’s a good thing. And to compare demanding an opportunity to fulfill a mitzva with a demand for moshiach is apples and oranges. Thats like demanding a diploma instead of taking classes because the diploma makes your parents prpud. No, *earning and deserving* the diploma makes your parents proud. Not just the receipt.
You dont have to agree with each other, but at least answer the arguments according to what is being argued.
RSo- nice work.
There still remains a big difference between demanding geula, and putting it as a tafkid or top priority over other things.Ubiq – im not gonna jump on this political blackhole but you are definitely not playing straight. You are taking advantage of his emotional approach and arguing style to discount all his points. Saying there is a shred of similarity between “jewish thievery” and not denouncing islamic terror hours after terrorists credit islamic ideology for the deed is crazy. Sure you can have fun spinning in circles with him on this but that wont make you right.
Laskern, the problem here is that people have such a visceral response to the concept of sheltering that you will never get them to see the value, nor seperate their bigotted view of the chasdidish world from the advantages of protecting your neshama. And others indicate they wrongly feel threatened by people who shelter themselves and still somehow manage to pen literate emails and live professional lives without mingling.
” If you’re bothered by any criticism of sheltering I have to assume you support the full-throttle sheltered ”
I feel the need to explicitly state that the reason I object is because of the descriptions and language used. They are jews regardless of what *I* think of their lifedtyle and i dont appreciate the l”h, ms”r or simply anti-demeticISH stereotyping. Period.
Intetesting response. Obviously coming from some bruised or injured places….if you ever feel ready to have a give and take type of conversation on this topic we can revisit it then.
Neville, I’m surprised and disappointed at your biases these days. I thought your post was so nice at first but the underlying disapproval seems to peek through. And this last line: “but I’m not sure it’s good for their happiness and success.” is a bit presumptuous. Living with people who live as you described allows me to respond this way – if you think it isn’t good for their happiness and success than you seem to be unaware of what truly makes a yid happy when his priorities are straight, and you seem to be projecting what your priorities are, onto them.
Most ahve a warm encironment. You really should read through last years seminary thrwads and try to reach live people. Otherwise you are stuck with comments like takes2’s who thinks his personal opinion applies to everyone.
Offered to learn a mishna in their zchus
We have gets most every shabbos meal, thank Gd. One of our regulars brings carmel popcorn and a couple of them bring soarkling grape juice, both kid friendly and commonly liked items. Most of our guests dont bring anything but will express their thanks when they leave and call for another invitation. That works for me.
When my own kids go out tjo, i try to send a candy/nut tray
Why can’t yhe mom get police help to grab a married 13 year old?
That wasnt the punchline! The punchline was, “i can see things you cant, ehat looks bad may be good, trust Hashems plan”
That was not his criteria at all. And i have learned the inyan he is discussing and it isnt “his criteria” in any case.
“Don’t tell me lack of gun control doesn’t create more than a 50% chance of people getting killed by guns.
Regardless of my view on gun control, do you realize you just dad that when you leave your house in the morning, or just wake up(?), there is a 50% chance you will be killed by a gun?
I know that. Thats was MY point. That was why i said you cannot make the statements you made above. You asked him if he looks before crossing the stteet when its often less then 50% but that is just a distortion when the discussion is not about isolated specific cases. Same for your locking your door example. Its probanly not less then 50% if you don’t do it at all.
DY – i think youre doing that thing again where you pull something out of context and jump on it without the big picture. You may be right that the risk of getting hit by a car is less than 50% sometimes, but the risk will be 50 or more if you don’t look ever. You can’t pull a statistic on an isolated case in specific set up (ie a small street at 3 am) and say that it yransfers to a recurring or chronic behavior. Not locking my car door once may not be a 50% risk for theft, but not locking my car door is probably way over 50%
HI!!!!! So nice to hear from you! I hope all is well, seeing as it’s not bein hazmanim. Thanks for showing up!
And when a harried doctor steps into the exam room and explodes at a parent who spent 45 minutes in the waiting room before raising a concern about a vaccine, or the aggressive vaccine schedule, and gives no reassurance, no information, and does not acknowledge the fear that is behind the concern, and instead threatens to refuse care to the child, how is that going to help change minds?
Avrum – I don’t believe your example really happens, and if it does, it doesn’t happen often enough to be valid complaint against the doctors/vaxxers. If someone has an idiot doctor and they haven’t figured it out or switched, it isn’t relevant on a community level.
Yserbius123 – Thank you for your enlightening posts. You bring up several very important points:
1. You have a strong dislike of chareidim
2. You have little actual knowledge of how they make decisions
3. You are so intent in degrading and insulting them that you are willing to sound like a fool while doing so. Must be important to you.Definitely food for thought.
Im all fairness tho, i appreciate Joseph’s forray into singlehood. Even though i dont like much of his views, i appreciate the absence of decietfulness that sockpuppeting offers
“This has to be Joseph’s greatest CR success story (at least since he’s become a 1-account man). ”
Yes, he and slonimer both 😆Anyone who thinks having a post high school girl stay home will save them $20k doesn’t have one.
😂😂🤣🤣😂😂
😂😂🤣🤣
Ummm what assumptions exactly? I have no clue who you are and don’t claim to have any assumptions about you. I stated my opinion and personal view of your comments. I wrote that I was giving my opinion and personal view of your comments. I pointed out exactly which things you said that led me to my opinions, and you are more than welcome to oppose the view. So what is wrong with that? Do you resent the fact that you said you still remember who didn’t tip you, or are you resenting the fact that it made me feel like two cents?
Personally I was not aware that opposing your views was a deterrent to having a conversation, I actually think that is a silly excuse not to respond to someone. Especially when your grounds for upset are the assumption that I am making assumptions.
I am sorry you are having trouble with this. You seem offended for some reason (my view and assumption) and for that I apologize.As to your comment that I don’t know how you live – you are correct. You also don’t know how I live now, and under what circumstances I grew up – so your comment is really out of line. We are two anonymous individuals on the internet commenting on a general issue, and we should make sure to convey our views logically and respectfully.
Yes, a different view. Which does not make me incorrect, that is what is so wonderful about having conversations.
I don’t believe that the brochure stated the tipping amounts or the number of people involved and even if they did, that would not make it affordable. My point to you was the concept that staff is voluntary and then have expectations to be tipped as a salary by parents who may have already shelled out beyond their means.I also had no problem paying a small fee for my son to have the privilege, as you say, of working as a waiter. I did it myself. It’s a fun but grueling summer with friends, and it is what it is. If I wanted a paid position, I should have looked for one. To add in this last post that the expectation is that the tips would cover it, that should be a hope, not an expectation (my view).
As far as charging an extra $50 for camp etc. It doesn’t really work that way. Camps are strapped too. They don’t have the figures worked out to the dollar so that the $50 this way comes from that. They have huge budgets and charge whatever they can expect to get parents to pay (as in whatever the going rate is) I would doubt their income matches their output but I don’t see any excuse for making salaries outside of their budget.
As far as my comment being out of line – I don’t agree (my view). If you were talking about the system and how you love or hate it I would have never have commented at all. But you made a comment above about the families who don’t tip, who you’ve kept in your mind years later. That, to me (my view again) is insensitive toward many parents, and an added dig to those out there who just plain couldn’t. Telling you you have misjudged is not out of line. It was a request for understanding. And potentially a plea for mechila to many already hurting parents.
respectfully, syag
Your sympathy is not necessary. I was telling you thst your complaints display a lack of understanding.
1. Yes, this was also a learning camp. 7 envelopes.
2.same (possibly same camp)
3.there is a difference between expecting to tip – translation being to slip a bit of extra money – to the waiter, and getting a list of recipients with expected amounts totaling hundreds.
5. You have a great sense of humor
6. If you truly knew how we/they live, you wouldn’t have made most of your other comments.
One of my sons also went as a waiter because we could not afford for him to be a camper. He went knowing there was no salary. If his intent was to earn money he wouldn’t have taken the job. Every penny he received was a gift. Not an expectation. It is your employers job to pay your salady. Camps have no business requiring fees that take us all year to pay off, and expect us to pay their staff as well. On top of all the other purchases we have to make just to send them it is an unreasonable request. And putting it in the brochure dodsnt make it more reasonable.anisraeliyid – your post makes me feel awful. I worked in camp when younger and we were all paid. Our wages were lower than low but those were the wages we agreed to when we took the job. When my kids were camp age and people mentioned tipping I thought it was pure chutzpah. Tipping implies money beyond the salary. Which would be fine in a restaurant. But not camp. Camps charge $1600 to $2500 for 3 plus weeks (not 4 anymore). That is not a small number to any middle class parent and I don’t have anything close to that to spend on just one kid. But at a certain age it is imperative that they be out of the city in the summer.
After finding the least expensive camp, and agreeing to drive 10 hours to avoid a plane ticket I can’t afford, we proceeded to purchase excessive amounts of clothing. Both clothing that he could benefit from anyway (more underwear and socks), and clothes he will never touch outside of camp. Do you have any idea how much this can cost a family for just one child? Then camp is coming to an end and we receive an envelope for tips. Not an envelope for the waiter, 7 envelopes! 2 waiters, 2 counselors, one learning rebbe, one shiur rebbe, and the night seder rebbe. And then the recommendations for $40-$50 dollars each. There was no way we could come up with money like that after all of the other expenses, and for you to say that it was my achrayus, not the camps, and not your own (!) is unfair. If the camp believes you deserve wages, then they should pay them. Charging thousands for 3 weeks is no discount that would justify tacking on an extra $250 plus at the end. And if you believe you need a salary, then you should be working a job that pays one.
One year I held the envelopes until Chanuka and used money I got from relatives to pay the tips with a note of apology. The idea that there are waiters out there who remember years later which parents didn’t tip (as you stated) is humiliating. And sadder than that is the idea that you don’t see what is wrong with this system.
I cannot see any excuse for charging great sums for camp and then asking us to pay your staff (who I DO agree deserve plenty!) I also can’t understand the oblivious attitude of people who don’t appear to have a clue what life is REALLY like for most of the frum population.
“This was caused by the parents neglect to be tested”
No, this was csused by Gd. We have testing for a reason. We also have sitiations whete things seem to ‘slip through the cracks’ because that’s how Gd wanted it. There are probably thousands of problems that can come up that can’t be tested for in advance as well. It is not in our hands to make sure our children have only healthy offspring. Our job is to do our best and not point fingers when Hashem throws you a curveball. It’s so easy for us to *say* אין עוד מלבדו, but these are the times when Hashem wants us to prove we mean it.Oh please! Asking people not to be slobs, disrespectful or filthy is an agenda?
Kust finished dark tapestry, An Ordinary Wednesday and The Movement. Great books, really draw you in and no loose ends to ruin the conclusion. Dark Tapestry is my favorite so far.
Having seen a bunch of Wolf’s photographs I can only say that if he isnt famous, he sure should be.
“and destroyed health care thereby responsible for the death of people having a lack of health care. ”
Oh, come on
Reb Scheinberg זצ”ל
“Wait a minute, back up. Joseph works at a public school?”
Alluded to it and then allowed other’s to assume so. Although if he does it would most certainly mean he is surrounded by nivel peh, intermittent kol isha, and generally unIclad women. So… think what you wish.👍
Neville not harsh, disingenuous. You know I don’t call everyone who disagrees with me a troll. If what you say above was really your point then just say so.
Neville – You may be right about the ineffectiveness of hurling insults but I believe you are intelligent enough and self-aware enough to know that throwing in a line like:
but it doesn’t help anything to just scream insults and accusations of trolling at anyone with whom you disagree.
is just manipulative. You know well that I am not screaming accusations of trolling at anyone with whom I disagree.That isn’t my way. That’s more drama to avoid addressing the fact your cookie cutter comments are science fiction. And look how you write a dramatically silly piece that includes teachers making children feel warm. Is that really equal in your mind to the other mockery statements? Were you raised under someones open hand or do you just enjoy watching the effects of supporting the sadistic joseph style imaginary Torah life?