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no – I agree that the small business owners are suffering and that an opening and re-closing could be devastating for them. I also don’t know about what kind of support or assistance they have gotten but to say “favors growth of the big business” as if it is all bad is not honest. I have no love for many of the big corporations, I have seen too many things that are not very impressive in the limited exposure I have, but I do remember some of the issues in supporting big businesses being a way to keep them from heading overseas and keeping jobs in our communities.
I know that my employer let me go, but my husband works for a ‘big business’ who kept him working, paid for his corona weeks (although they would not have paid for quarantine time!), gave them a “hero’s bonus for being frontline workers and left us with income. I have to be grateful for that. Especially at a time that big business have been leaving states and countries when taxes get too high or workers cost too much. I kind of see it like the bully who threatens to have a tantrum if you don’t give him what he wants, and if you have enough to gain, you give him what he wants.
That may only apply to a small portion of big buisiness, or most of them, I have no idea. But making them “happy” and keeping them local does benefit us in a large handful of ways.
A Yid –
“Watch the spike” is that your brocha for us?Chas Vshalom! Al Tiftach Peh!
I don’t think we have short memories, I think you have fallen in to the “al tadin es chavercha’ trap that is always there for us. It may not be short memories, it can easily be 53 souls who already spent their week, two weeks, maybe three? fighting the virus themselves and in their houses and they do believe they are at risk anymore. And guess what, if they have high risk family members, do you know that they are in contact with them, or have not been keeping those members at bay, or maybe those members already had the virus?There are a lot of people out there spouting all kinds of stuff, but you can’t blame 50 people (which by the way can consist of just 5 or 6 families) or 150 people for believing that if they have already had it run through their houses they can put it behind them.
Perhaps you are right and I am wrong, but I would rather be wrong than put statements like these out there for everyone to accept
DY-100%
The point i was trying to make is that it can only delay it and for those beneficial reason, but not make it go away to put those high-risk individuals in the clear.AJ- i am pretty sure i was siding with you.
DMB – i apologize if that was your intention, to me it sounded like yet another “let’s list the excuses stupid people are using to rationalize being irresponsible “. My mistake i guess.
Ubiq- thanks! I was hoping you’d comment.
I do think we agree. I was trying to make a point that my post was already too long to elaborate on. There are people saying we need to open the economy because of the serious damage it is doing to people. Others hear that and say,”yeah, why should we lose money because of a virus” Or they are wrongly accused of being concerned about money vs lives. There are so many uninformed people out there who don’t seem to understand that the worry about the crashing economy is because of the potential damage it does to human lives, not wallets. And while you are right, it can’t trump ALL, it needs to be understood as two sides of a “lives at risk” coin that must be weighed.Great question. I got my info from reading up on everything I could find (of the reliable writings). I haven’t seen an answer to that because there probably isn’t one. Short of continued distancing and caution of the high risk population from the general publuc til there is either a vaccine, treatment or herd immunity I don’t know.
I think the generalizations are making a lot of drama.
1. There are people who don’t want to continue isolating after TWO MONTHS of it and they are being accused of not isolating.
2. Although many people had very mild cases, many, many of those people who didn’t get “really sick” suffered terribly. Some say it was the worst pain of their lives, that they wanted to die, that they thought they would die etc. These are quotes from those who “just got sick but didn’t have to go to the hospital”
3. Isolating and social distancing is NOT intended to eradicate the disease, just stagger the infections. So new cases are expected and mostly unpreventable in the LONG term. We must prevent it from spreading to the high risk population, but there was never a possibility of making it go away by staying home. Don’t blame new infections on people as if they weren’t part of the plan.
4. Finances is NEVER a good reason to put any lives at risk. Suffering long term health and emotional damage from losing everything on the other hand is a legitimate reason to weigh which is the lesser of two tragedies. But people saying the economy overall is worth more than a life are nutcases.
5. Saying a medication is safe or not safe is irrelevant at this time. Is chemo safe? would you give it to your kid as a booster? No. When doctors provide medications they do so in terms of the risk of taking it versus the risk of not taking it in terms of what is currently going on in the persons physiology. Something being safe for lupus means it’s better than what lupus has to offer. Something being safe for Covid19 just needs to be better than what the risks of covid are offering.
6. Although not everyone followed the social distancing/quarantine, most people did. And just because the news says it was a jewish problem, that doesn’t mean it was, cuz there are plenty videos to show it wasn’t.
7. Just because it was necessary to stop minyanim and yeshivos from meeting, doesn’t mean that avodas Hashem is not the absolute priority in our lives and what really sustains us. The ones who mistakenly took that fact to mean it is okay to put others at risk are no worse than those who wish to continue to put the physical precautions over spiritual actions when it is no longer proscribed.
7a. Not a lot of care was taken to even clarify if people were put at risk in the minyanim
7b. Not a lot of the people screaming about minyanim opened their mouths even once about grocery shopping in big chains
7c. Sometimes we really do have to follow health guidelines even when they infringe on what we believe is right. Follow your Rav, and check your motives.Milhouse – I find you so confusing (inconsistent?)
You seem so rational and almost everything you say makes so much sense and is rational. But then you throw in that the hospitals in NY were NOT overwhelmed? And the empty temp hospitals is your proof? I think you misunderstand what overwhelmed means. If a mom has 10 well behaved children, and another has 4 handicapped children does that smaller group mean less work? I don’t know what decision was made about who was admitted where, but when an ICU unit is usually filled with (I’m making up the numbers) 20 patients and 8 are critical, and another floor is set up for stable patients and has a staff used to caring for 40 regular beds it becomes overwhelming and unmanagable to have the ICU unit suddenly filled with 18 out of 20 critical, unstable, crashing and coding, reequiring hands on care simultaneously and back to back, and the usually stable floor fill up suddenly with critical patients but with the same staff and equipment they always have. And it wasn’t just for a week. And there were too many bodies for the morgues. Correct, it wasn’t every or even most hospitals, but it was many. I am not sure why you would believe otherwise.Global warming-climate change etc may be a hoax, or just a fake, but it is certainly easy to find actual information to support that. This hospital claim you make is surprising.
For the life of me I cannot fathom why someone would consider this worth posting. We have spent all these weeks in our home, secluded from each other with one shiur after another urging us to up our game in how we think, feel and speak about each other. It may sound entertaining to you, or maybe you just wanted an audience to vent your feelings toward certain Jews, I don’t know. But I do hope it doesn’t spiral into worse.
Amil – with all due respect (seriously) it never to fails that someone laud the public schools superiority over our schools in regard to whatever the topic of the day is. I’m not sure what sparks the need to generate these comments but it is obviously not fact based, as you cannot have spoken to even a random sampling of each, nor read any studies. Usually it just comes from people’s stereotypical beliefs/thoughts/imaginations of what they have decided about the Jewish system at large versus what they imagine the public school system to look like everywhere.
I obviously cannot speak for the larger Jewish world, but I will say that among the 8 or more frum schools that I have first hand feedback from, the feedback drastically varies from teacher to teacher, not Jewish school to public school. And in addition to that, I have heard from public school teachers that they have about a 50% attendance rate (again, a very small sampling) and there is not much learning getting done.
In the 10 public schools I worked at over this decade, I would say the ability of the teachers just to put together a classroom website varied from highly skilled to barely capable. Your situation of school preparedness sounds wonderful and unique.
Sorry to pick on you as an example, but this undertone of inferior Jewish schools, inferior teachers, inferior Jewish music, inferior Jewish books etc is just a mantra that some people inject into conversations all over the place, like subliminal messages inserted in frames of a movie reel, and repeated often enough, it lays a false and unfortunate foundation for further negative attitudes toward the Jewish communities at large.
That’s baloney. And not even apperant from this thread.
SB- your post has a few holes in it, not sure if you are uninformed or having fun. Anti science isn’t the issue. Hanging on to a cause when there is inadequate scientific data to support it isn’t anti science. And herd immunity is about a percentage of a population being immune. When the non immune all reside on top of each other, it disrupts the effectiveness. Measels is also more contagious than most viruses. Calling something science that is based on observations is not really accurate.
Right. By people documenting vaccines they didn’t have.
“Our children were never in any more danger due to a child in the class who was unvaccinated- yet folks with no medical knowledge whatsoever chose to torture pure innocent children”
That is a nice emotional plea but it’s not based in fact.Oh, now it’s mid April? Amazing how fluid reality has become. I hate to burst your bubble but I’ve been stuck in my house since March. And travel bans were in place before that.
Thank you. I stand corrected on the off ground trips. That is a safety measure they have chosen i would assume. But i stand by the rest. Especially less activities. Don’t underestimate the creativity and resourcefulness of camp counselors. They do amazing things in low/no budget camps and with severely disabled campers who others think “can’t do much”. Don’t sell them short.
CTL- that sounds like a paragraph description written by a bunch of board members who have never stepped foot in a camp. Less activities, no off ground outings? That’s hogwash. There are already venues willing to sanitize and resanitize for family groups in the midst of this, let alone this summer. No wrestling? You can’t be serious. Wrestling?
Reb e- i rarely defend anything trump says since his words are his worst trait, but you definitely got this one wrong. I know from your posts that when it comes to trump you aren’t open to that possibility but that’s just fake news
Try rereading the thread. And other trump and coronavirus threads I think the answer will be obvious.
So you’re both liars?
No need to be rude. You said it over incorrectly twice. I was clarifying your misunderstanding. Your response makes no sense.
Reb e- that statement is in the context of cases reported. If a country decides not to do testing, they will have few cases documented. Only the ones who get admitted to hospitals. If you do more testing, there are more numbers reported. To twist that into an implication that not testing means people don’t get sick is untrue
The point is he isn’t changing his stance
Ready now- lupus is chronic. Longterm.
Cute!
Staying home for inflated unemployment checks makes no sense. The supplement ends in July and new jobs will most likely not be easy to find yet at that time. Anyone not grateful to have a job now needs a reality check. And if a pandemic isn’t enough of a teality check they need to take on a musser seder.
Akuperma- i am pretty sure your numbers are wrong. Are you getting them from political briefings or medical?
Also, i hate when people make dumb comments like that about the flu. The final number of flu deaths and cases does not in any way present itself the way covid did with the speed, intensity, abikity to be passed unknowingly or lasting damage. You certainky are too smart to pretend a ticker tape readout can disregard actual real life, what’s blinding you?“The politicians (and the rabbinicial organizations, and the medical profession) goofed and need to take immediate measures to restore their credibility. ”
You really can’t say they were wrong. It is all well and good to be a Monday morning quarterback (actually, it really isn’t) but to say people made a mistake by shutting people in to keep them from spreading a disease that seemed to be jumping at passersby and killing huge numbers – that’s not a mistake.
If a person smells a gas leak or smoke and they scream for everyone to clear the house and call 911, and afterwards they find out it was actually the fireplace or a neighbors bbq, do you think they acted wrongly?
Now that we have “so much” information on this illness (which you would have to be a fool to believe) we can sit and criticize all the people who didn’t take it seriously at first (which, if you would be HONEST, is probably everyone. That’s the reality of unprecedented occurrences) and then comment on how they did TOO much (as if stopping the spread is a bad idea amidst a pandemic BEFORE the facts are in) and have the chutzpah to say they need to “restore their credibility”? That’s nuts.
Moving forward, we may have enough breathing space to decide if the harm of staying indoors overrides the harm of opening the doors knowing there are millions of morons out there who will disregard all safety measures. And we STILL don’t understand how this awful children’s illness fits into the picture, so know is definitely time to work with facts and statistics and make educated GUESSES. But to criticize how it was handled while the world was on fire is just haughty and misleading.
Reb E- they do when their son has been threatened harm if they don’t.
“when sharing useful and beneficial information to the public”
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣“However, it’s not for every girl , or boy for that matter. ”
Which is a major point I was trying to make, and one that you absolutely mis-portrayed in your previous post. Thank you for clarifying that it is not for every girl or boy, which means that it is also not for no girl or boy.“The average girl/most girls do not need to go overseas for seminary. They’d benefit from a domestic seminary just as well, if ruchniyus is the consideration.”
Joseph, it’s always a hoot to hear you weigh in on topics of what is good for girls. Kind of creepy actually to hear you speak as if you would have up to date info that allows you to have such a definitive opinion. Not comfortable with that at all. I have found thru your posting that you don’t really have an awareness of any life outside of New York so speaking for a portion of the population is just not shiach. I have also learned that you love throwing in comments about things that will cause commotion and what better than discounting the value of seminary – even if you couldn’t possibly (hopefully) have enough exposure to females to make your case.
common – Of course you managed, B”H you managed! But managing is a whole different topic. A majority of people who lose parents at a young age manage, they lose their wallet and manage, they have to live locked in their homes for weeks on end and manage. Managing is about surviving, taking what you are given and coming out alive/ahead. I am hoping people can make decisions based on what is good or best for them, not based on with what they are able to manage. And for some people, it is sending someone to seminary, not keeping them home, that leads to them having to manage with less. 🙂
May you continue managing in good health, and may Hashem bless you and yours with everything you need to not just manage but thrive!!Your three responses obviously come from bias and over opinionated -ness (can’t think of an alternative word) that shows up often with this topic. I sure hope no girl ever misses out on what could be a very valuable experience for her because of armchair complainers who don’t mind generalizing their personal opinions as if they belong to everyone.
OP- you probably have a good idea about whether or not your daughter will benefit. If she isn’t a rule follower, if she is a risk taker, if she rarely comes home before midnight, if you don’t usually know where she is at any given moment,if she tells you why she wants to go to seminary and non of her reasons sound like healthy productive ones then maybe a year in another country isn’t the place for her. Unless of course you find the right place, in which case it will be the best place of all.
“What kind of parents fail to make rules for their children in their house (as well as outside)?!”
I was waiting for that. He was obviously not implying that there are no rules in the house. House rules are tailored, more specific to your home and easier to live with than the very regulated less indidualized and less flexible rules in a classroom.My kids would definitely prefer learning face to face, but I sure wouldn’t make the leap to saying they want to go back to school. Except my bais medrash guys, obviously, everyone else is pretty happy this way for now.
Arralee- are you joking or are you living under a rock? Nobody knows anyone who actually has covid19? I will assume you aren’t part of the frum community where almost everyone i know has had coronavirus, knows someone who lost someone, and gets frightening numbers of death notices.
Hey streekgeek! Love the quote, and glad to know you’re hangin in there!!
I kinda think cynical is funny 🤭
Seriously tho, when you lower your expectations of what everyone around you should be doing, and only focus on yourself, it takes the edge off and leaves more room for funny. At least it worked for me. I enjoy your posts either way, if that helps.Im in…
Rational- I agree with you, but I also agree with ubiquitin. I can’t stand text speak – incomplete words, incomplete sentences and sometimes incomplete thoughts. I also like proper punctuation and apostrophes. Having said that, when I am posting, sometimes while busy and usually on my cheap phone, this platform makes proofreading a pain. So between poor equipment and auto correct , it’s not always pretty.
Rava- i agree that many people totally don’t get it. If you dont live in areas with frequent levayas it is not as blatant. On the other hand, although my community has been fortunate in regard to it’s residents, the shiva notices regarding their loses has been overwhelming. And as a hatzalah dispatcher I have found this epidemic to be the cause of many sleepless nights.
“Are you insinuating that the Torah wants us to follow a Rov, instead of looking out for ourselves? ”
I don’t know where you get a question like that. If such a choice exists then you haven’t found a rav Although that does give insight to your other comments…
I love that idea, thanks so much!
AJ- i don’t disagree with anything you say, i just don’t think we can let that decide whether or not to send a virus back to the streets. At the same time i also don’t believe we can discount these points when deciding a date either. Financial devastation is also a tangible danger to some people.
Haimy- Excellent question! And the fact that nobody yet has enough facts to answer it is why many leaders are being overly cautious and why some are balking at it. Technically (on paper, perhaps) if you are locked up with a group, whomever is already sick should be better in 2 weeks. Those who get sick from them somewhere in that two weeks need their own two weeks. If someone then doesn’t catch it until 8 days into their two weeks, and needs their own two weeks….. well, you get the idea.
In my house, my husband got sick before the whole lock up thing, very early in Chicago’s run. 5 days later 5 other people in the house woke up symptomatic. So we lucked out, all getting it at once. 10 days later they were all free according to CDC. Problem is, the last bunch never got it. So they had to stay quarantined for 14 days, because that’s the incubation period, and I was sick for almost 17 days, was well for 6, and am now feeling sick again. Technically, that would put those guys back in quarantine and it means I still can’t leave the house. It’s day 26 since my first symptoms, I still have symptoms, and if I had been “released” during those 6 days when I was well who knows who I may have infected. And honestly, for all I know it’s not even covid anymore. I thought of getting tested again but if it shows positive, who will even know if the resurgence of symptoms will have anything to do with it or if it’s just “still there” from before.
The whole things is so nuts, so unknown, so crazy. Do I want to extend the lock up? I don’t know, maybe yes because I’m enjoying the no homework/carpool part of it, but I get that people have had enough. My point is that it’s so unknown that you can’t just let everyone out because you’re bored. Too much possibility remains of spreading this garbage around.
Haimy – yes, a virus does leave people after a certain point. Will it leave the earth, assumedly no. But how hard is it to understand that if 1000 (randomly chosen number) people leave their houses after they have all recovered and are no longer positive, it is different from 1000 people leaving their houses while a whole bunch of them are STILL CARRIERS. See the key here is that if you aren’t carrying the virus anymore, you won’t give it to someone. And if you have only been exposed to people in your house, then there should, technically, be a finite amount of time before the virus has run its course through EVERYONE, leaving some untouched perhaps, but the active virus eventually leaves. If we wait til it leaves MOST people, instead of waiting til we are restless and bored, then when people leave their houses there won’t be anything to spread.
One problem with this is the emotional damage to people being “locked up” for so long, or suffering financial damage (remember the great depression suicide rates?) since the above scenario would probably take a very long time.
But either way, people shouldn’t be making their decisions based on their inability to put the human population ahead of their own self interest, or their extreme boredom, or politics, or anything else not medically determined as a good idea.
Oh pleased Joseph! You know exactly what he means.
nomesorah – I don’t know who you are or what your story is except that you are a teen, which is very obvious. I just find your postings to be very sad. You sound like you have little regard for Rabbeim and Daas Torah and don’t seem to have an understanding or respect for the concept that we aren’t all about ourselves. Is this a product of your environment or have you had some very poor role modeling, I have no idea. But I do hope you will take the time to find someone who has the time and the love to give you a more honest perspective of what Torah wants from us — separate from what you may have picked up and absorbed on your own
“If no doctor around, I would decide as II am the best doctor for myself.”
Wow, what a disappointing answer. I don’t know that you would have any obligation to follow the mattersdorfer rav if he is not your rav, but I never in a million years would expect you would ever make such a statement.