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Torahvalues – absolutely! And my knowledge shouldn’t be enough for you. But when I rely on a doctor, it is with the knowledge that he already did the research and checked out those studies and the “psak” i get from this doctor is based on all of that.
One of my kids works in a fertility clinic and they are beyond careful about covid and all the precautions. These big doctors, very well known, said this is a ridiculous claim and encourage the vaccine. I trust their word better than any researcher or anonymous poster.
“COVID, on the other hand, can potentially impact fertility.”
I’m pretty sure you just made that up
Sorry but I need to cross threads for this but here are some more not well researched but condescending comments:
“Jews in US taking welfare funds, justifying that they are using them for good reasons…Even if you do not cheat directly, you are bound to be biased.”
“we ended up with youngelech dressing up daily as Talmidei Chachamim, and then believing in their own and their friends’ status based on the dress code”
“when they advocate for things that clearly need to be changed – … slavery, not studying professions…”
“Possibly, people get used to a lifestyle and do not understand the halakhic and lifnei-meshuras =-hadin implications.”
and many get used to looking down their noses at what the kollel folks are doing that they don’t even realize how erroneous they are in there speculations about their lives.
Did you really not know that that was not what Avrum said? He was talking, I am sure, about YOU bringing up your annoyance with the lifestyle, NOT how much the subject comes up.
” and something to remember in these dividing times…”
it is quite infuriating how you make these musser comments about unification and then insert nasty racist put downs in all your other posts. And sometimes both together.
It seems to me a side effect of the vaccine is becoming a troll.
Or was that the covid? 🤔
😉
I’m confused (probably cut i haven’t been keeping up with political pieces anymore).
Without rehashing anything or having a Trump Biden discussion, are people who are happy the war is over feeling that it justifies the taliban takeover or are they just stating it as two separate pointsDaMoshe- i agree with you on your take of the situation but I disagree about the CY part. It isn’t quite the “chumra” you (and AAQ) make it out to be. It just hits a reflexive chord so you lose your objectivity about it, which helped me draw the conclusion that perhaps that was indeed his real motive in this creepy thread.
“L’Chavero is something that secular society does both on personal and societal level, so we unconsciously value them less.”
Where do you come up with these fruit cake notions? And present them like they make sense?
“to be afraid of liberal education,”
“We just need to realize inherent biases we have”I’ll change that to bigot. Or clueless. It’s a toss up at this point
My dad (born in the 30’s) was always hesitant to wear a yarmulka in public, he always wore a cap. I remember my mom explaining it (in the 80’s)as a generational thing . Even so, when I was fixed up with med students back when few doctors wore yarmulkes, I wouldn’t consider a boy who went bare headed.
“not studying professions”
You are such a hater
Yup
GH- you always say things like that about gaps and unfair treatment and I always agree. Then at the next opportunity you throw in those derogatory comments. A woman is a homemaker, but a yeshiva woman is locked in her kitchen. A lady wears long sleeves, but the chassidisher lady is wearing sleeves that Gd forbid don’t veer more than 3 inches from her wrist. A guy eats in a restaurant, but a chassidisher stuffs his face with garbage.
In all sincerity, do you really not realize you do that?
AAQ – excellent post!
mensch1 – thank you. I too had aa Ah Ha experience but it was some smaller ones combined. One of the “last straws” was probably when most of my high school class stopped keeping much of anything by the end of high school, except those who had “frummed out” in their Israel year, and the handful of sincere, devoted and serious Mizrachi-niks (who, by the way, have a solid frum family of grandchildren 30 years later, B”H). I figured something was up and when I looked into it more, I realized that the self serve buffet style of observance (do you keep kol isha? are you gonna cover your hair? do you wear pants? are you shomer negiah?) was a paradox in itself. If it’s optional, why do it at all? But we were told that mitzvos were mandatory just that how you observed them seemed to be optional. This was probably very much connected to AAQ’s above post as opposed to an actual hashkofa. the modern schools at that time were there to rescue the immigrants children/grandchildren who were prepared to just toss it all to avoid the persecution of Europe.
“Do you say that about other chiyuvim and Mitzvos as well?”
Is that how low you are stooping these days? You know darn well that the observance of the mitzvah of tochacha INCLUDES making sure you are qualified and that the recipient is interested. How dare you try to portray him as being lax in mitzvos by calling out your incorrect behavior.
“Its become the norm after many tragedies for certain regular suspects to immediately call for teshuvah and blame women’s failure to adhere to hilchos tzinus as a major cause.”
I have never heard this from anyone but you. Are you gaslighting us or are you pretending random extreme views apply to the general public?
GH- sorry, but that was a pretty dumb response
Wow. I can believe the lengths some of you are going to to pretend Biden isn’t the biggest disaster on 2 legs, and I can almost believe there are a few holdouts wanting to pretend that he didn’t just betray America and destroy our reputation and safety when even CNN knows it’s true. But to tie it to Trump?
Somewhere between beyond the imagination and patheticP.s. before you try to pretend this is a pro trump thing, I don’t read his letters, don’t want him running, and don’t think I’d vote him back. This is purely about watching TDS merge with La la land
DaMoshe-
“So too people who grow up in the yeshiva world and have things kept hidden from them, such as Internet access, interacting innocently with the opposite gender, and other things. MO teaches people how to deal with these things properly. When yeshivish people are exposed to it (and they are at some point), many of them don’t know how to deal with it, and they are overwhelmed.”This is so ridiculous, false, insane and bizzare I had to do a double take to see if you really wrote it. Either you never met someone from the “yeshiva world” or you just wanted to test your skills at comedy.
How about this, you use that bizzare description as the yeshiva world standard, and I’ll take my pregnant 12th grade neighbor as the typical MO description.😑
RebDovid, DBS, Mesivta bachur and puttinginmy2cents –
Please don’t judge the coffee room participants as a single group. Especially by 3 posters. It is no different than what you ask of them.
Also, I just want to say I appreciate your quest for achdus, and many of us join you. It is a rough road because not everyone is nice, and it is very hard to oppose a movement without it being taken personally (I’m talking from any side). Legitimate claims against modern orthodoxy are automatically construed as personal attacks. And when someone to the “right” tells you that you are doing something not in accordance with halacha, the most natural response is to point out all the wrong in their communities as well. Is there a solution? Sure. But not in a chat room. I don’t think you could even support your favorite ice cream flavor online without people calling you names. It needs to be done in person, and with kindness, and with an ability to hear without feeling attacked. (again, I’m talking all sides)I did learn something valuable from this thread today. I grew up in a modern orthodox system but there really was no modern orthodox system. It was orthodoxy made modern. I have a nephew who spent summers at Kollel in Morasha. He is a serious learner and perhaps proudly Modern Orthodox (I honestly never asked) but his life does not resemble the life I grew up in. There is a tremendous chashivus to learning, daas torah, tzniyus, tfila bitzibur, seperation of boys and girls in casual settings etc. Do they do things that make me scratch my head? Sometimes. And in that there is room for discussion. They are closely connected to YU but do not give ANY support or empathy to the LGBTQ community.
So what is it that I learned? That Modern Orthodoxy is not one single derech. It has questionable hashkofos, but not everyone seems to have “taken them on”. There is a need to differentiate between Modern Orthodoxy and modern versions of orthodoxy. I will not whitewash things that are wrong with Modern Orthodoxy, but the “label” seems to be too broad for anyone to understand who they are yelling at or why there is so much hatred. We need to drop the lumping and state our specific issues, and we also need to accept that there people who are angry because they are ferociously defending the distortion and watering down of halacha. If it aint you doing it, then remove yourself from the equation. But understand the need to fight this as we fall further and further away from the way things should be.
Too long, really sorry about that. But I dread another chat room casualty….
Avirah –
” including rav avigdor miller’s seforim, the old frumteens website, ”thank you for helping me understand why you sound so much like Joseph. I know I am a random anonymous voice but I would tell you that you seem able to explain points and processes well, with enough information included to help others understand, but if you could somehow find a kinder or softer presentation you may be able to have more influence. For instance, you point out how you may have been harsh but look at all the things you didn’t say. To that I wanted to respond – when someone is racing toward me with a truck, I don’t stop to notice that he did not run over my lawn on the way.
Coffee- I assume it’s no different than the lack of movement to stop the skirts from getting shorter.,.
RebDovid- on the chance you are not a troll stirring machlokes and are just young and idealistic, please don’t judge a group by it’s loudest members.
“Where did you get this from?”
I wondered that too
And for the record, I agree with coffee addict
😐Rebdovid- okay, too much going on here. First of all, you may be very sincere but I am too skeptical to think you really didn’t know what you were doing. BUT, that doesn’t give anyone license to be a jerk. Personal shots are never okay, I agree with GH on that.
Having said that, Avirah obviously has some heavy baggage. And if you read his posts you will discover that this is how he presents his points, harsh and pointed. And ujm/****** will never change either. So if you are gonna open a Pandora’s box and then start having a freak attack about less than a handful of posters, you obviously are just here to stir machlokes. And that is besides the fact that: A. You have decided to over dramatize and exaggerate the tone while(in order to?) disregarding points.and B. Please don’t pretend that this hateful attitude doesn’t go both ways. I cannot tell you how much garbage gets slipped in here about kollel, black hats, learning, Lakewood etc. Please. Don’t act like all your friends are any different.
If you really have/had an interest, you could have stepped right over the aggressive posters and said your piece (peace?). If you really had achdusbin mind you could have put in the effort to ignore rudeness and anger and responded intelligently where appropriate. Responding to heightened emotion with heightened emotion isn’t conducive to communication.
“Interestingly, the OP opened the floor for people to bring “taanos” against MO and has since not responded. So yes, I agree with you.”
Exactly what I was going to say. And just seeing the screenname i could’ve told you to expect just that. Seems to be a pattern there with brand new OPs and mile long names….
Are you putting on some kind of act?
“However, my understanding is that the amount of funding that is being debated with the hospital administrators will come nowhere close to expanding the ICU capacity nor are there sufficient trained nursing staff to manage the worse case scenarios.”
My understanding was that it was a refusal to release that level of funding. And why wouldn’t there be trained staff? They already did this last year.
“will rebel against any lockdown over the yamim noraim””
Forgive my failure to attribute the above quote to concerts and soccer games 🙄
“The government seems torn between following the guidance of the public health officials versus the politicians worried that Israelis will rebel against any lockdown over the yamim noraim”
I know you prefer that evil behavior be attributed to the religious but you are missing a piece here.one of the reasons the beds are full and the hospitals are overwhelmed is because Bennet stated he does not want to release emergency funds to the hospitals. How do you skip over that? And I’m putting aside the part that he instructed the healthcare people to make the numbers work to that end.Sometimes it just isn’t about religious people wanting to go to shul.
“It may be true that communities that were not careful were more exposed at the beginning, had very high rates then, and lower rates later”
This is exactly what’s happening. I have been trying to get you to acknowledge/hear that for months.
“so this cluster – sick early and not vaccinated – is one to watch for increase in disease, a”
No! This is NOT the case according to the er nurse and healthcare workers I’ve been checking in with. Please,acknowledge that your assumption on this is NOT the case. Please be willing to admit you are mistaken and they are NOT the ones getting sick right now. It is the unvaccinated but it is not the groups who you feel so desperate to condemn. Please be willing to put fact over agenda, you can still use it to condemn the unvaccinated even tho you were mostly incorrect about your theory on the careless.
Phil- do you realize you are pitting your facebook and twitter research based knowledge against an actual doctor?
“because you all are still arguing over 1st step issues that were put to bed by April 2020 whilst the rest of the world has moved on”
Huh??
“but as an individual we cannot decide to make this into a torah ruling and even compare this to the mitzvah of sukkah. At least until our Rabbis and leaders do not tell us so.”
2scents- THANK YOU!
What?
So it never occurred to you, that doesn’t mean you were right.
Shimon- glad to hear
Akuperma- put all the political garbage and who did what in response aside- i dispatch for hatzalah. I have dispatched thru many flu seasons. I dispatched thru covid. You are 100% wrong. 100%
“Trump downplaying its effect.”
Oh right, not the fact that all your democratic heros invented doubt in the vaccine and DENIED treatments that worked ONLY out of pure hate, you are going to skip all the killings that caused because your newspaper said so.
THAT is the world’s failure
“Covid19 probably could have gone unnoticed as a “bad case of flu”, which, unlike flu, primarily causes fatalities among the old and the sick, but not children. ”
You’ve got to be kidding
Sorry, 17 months.
I’m not denying the charges of course, but 18 months wasn’t pre pandemic.“three months I think they say”
Actually, 12-18. So far.
Reb E- you got that backwards.if the vaccine worked we wouldn’t be masking up again
Ari- it doesn’t. And you have had lots of people tell you that so maybe you can step back and retjink the issues. Are you dressed in a police uniform taking a job interview for a CPA position? Are you wearing torn jeans asking for a girl who wants a long term learner? Are you slapping your kid while speaking to a menahel about a teaching job? For 8 years I’ve been getting names of working/learning/both guys and always presented respectfully. Something else is at play here, try to find it.
“That was not the answer I was expecting, but I guess it’s consistent, so there’s that”
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
jackk – (I hope your point doesn’t lose credibility by my agreeing with it but…) thank you, exactly right.
yserbius – I think you missed what he was saying. Although I think it is more ridiculous than anti semetic. I understood him to be saying that people like AAQ have become so entrentched (I am kindly leaving you out of this round 🙂 ) that they are willing to agree to these dangerous “you to the left, we to the right” set ups albeit in the name of covid, but once you are going on that path (which I personally found horrifying and can’t believe you werent calling him out on it) the seperations can take all sorts of “criteria”.
benignuman- thank you for proving that you can have strong feelings on (either side of) the issue and still present as an intelligent, literate mentsch
In no thread does it describe me. and in no thread should it describe any frum jew. Or does halacha take a back seat again to your hatred?
I was just doing you the huge favor of letting you know that sane people on both sides of the vaccine conversation will probably not take anything you say seriously when you call them out to lunch disgusting names for following their doctors. If that works for you…enjoy.
“I tell you that calling people pro death makes you sound like a fruitcake”
1.you weren’t the one who called people pro death.
2. therefore I wasn’t talking to you
3.That may explain why the rest is so confusing for you
4. Yes, amazingly brilliant. How’d you guess.