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How about an entire community having speakers/workshops on how to prevent abuse,spot abuse and abusers, how to identify the signs of abuse in children and how to proceed from there given in every frum school in the community and made mandatory for the parents to attend?
There are wraps that are like flat thin lafas, and there are really thin flour tortillas. I remember being told by my LOR that the flour tortillas are mezonos but now I cant remember why. It was something about the baking process. Is it possible that they are fried or halachically cooked as opposed to baked?
apology accepted
wow – they really are miracle babies!
Even when I agree with you you seem to snap at me. I also advocate for abuse victims and I also know what I am talking about. I may not do things the way you do them but why does that make me any less effective. I think people would love what you have to say if it could be said in a tone that wasn’t so intimidating. Be angry at the cause, that’s fine, but why be mad at the posters who may not live your life, know what you know or see things your way? Give them food for thought instead of getting short and you will get further. I know I have said this before and I should give it up but I feel bad that you feel like you aren’t listened to but don’t realize it MAY be the tone and not the words.
aries – you missed my point.
little I know – I soo agree with you.
If any of you ever heard an abuse victim tell over their story as a kid to an adult, actually heard the spoken words they used, you may have just a bit more understanding of why it is so difficult to know what really happened and what to do about it. Kids don’t just walk up to their parents and say, “Hey, you will never believe where I just spent the last hour”. If only it were so clear and easy to sift through. I think there are alot of people responsible for action not taken on both the victim and authority side. Lots of negligence due to ignorance, not malice. In my experiences over the years it isn’t about saying it just didn’t happen.
I can’t be more specific but I hope this made sense.
MP – you are so awesome
I can relate to so much of this thread! I am always wondering how fast my kids would disown me if only they knew . . .
My dad o”h was a master. When my sister was young she spent a month in the hospital. My dad brought home some of those glass IV bottles (this was hundreds of years ago, mind you). He drilled a hole in the top, added gravel, a plant and two goldfish! He hung it up on my sisters IV pole without telling the nurses. What a riot that was!
If you can stand yet one more post I have a simplified version I have used to explain it. There is an end point that will happen in the world but you have a choice about how you will be a part of it. For example, your friend wants a slurpee and you don’t feel like she deserves it. But Hashem wants her to have it. So you tell her no, and walk away. Then she goes to school and her teacher surprises the class with slurpees. And you lost your chance to do chessed because you chose not to, but she still got what she deserved.
Also, if your mom knows you REALLY well, she can offer you two things and know EXACTLY what you will chose. But that will not affect your choice. The better she knows you, the more accurate she will be. And considering Hashem knows us so thouroughly, our paths become obvious to Him. But we still choose.
The book I am reading now has a chapter on this and says that someone (I never remember who) says that bechira only exists at the point in which you are being tested. Picking a flavor ice cream is not bechira, but deciding whether or not to do something when your yetzer hora is fighting you is bechira.
I know longer posts don’t always get read but I chose to try to be helpful anyway 🙂
goldenmom – I’m working on revamping the world, care to join me?
You are a million percent right and anyone who says different doesn’t have your kids. Or mine either, for that matter.
When my anatomy/physiology teacher would teach us about certain parts of the body or systems she would add “which is probably why Gd put it there”. I thought it was so cool to hear from a secular person. Also, I am RH- (try using THAT info to spot me in a crowd) so I have told my children that some of them are miracle babies because 75 years ago, before Rhogam shots, they would never have been born!
And I am not sure, but I can’t imagine anyone here is disagreeing with you. I think some people are put off by the intensity of your argument, afraid you are condemning innocent in a sweep with the guilty. You may not mean that at all but to others who may not understand where your passion comes from it sounds rash. Maybe it is that to which they are responding. Don’t be deterred by disagreement. Continue your work, speak kindly to all (not saying you didn’t) and the truth ALWAYS prevails.
aries – If you were responding to me, I think you misunderstood. I was saying that I heard that they were finally on board about encouraging people to go to the police. In a recent case they did just that. If you read my first post you would know that I didn’t disagree with anything you had said about putting an end to this. I am cautious because I know of a man fasely accused by a sick ‘friend’ but I am no less zealous about revealing matters when they are true. If you knew me you would laugh at the thought.
wandering chana – I am pretty sure, based on what was published afterwards, that you are correct.
I will say without giving details that the abused who “get over it” still suffer terribly in different ways throughout their married and child rearing lives. If, GD FORBID, my child comes to me with any story, I would like to believe I would leave no stone unturned to find out if it is true before showing no mercy.
Still, I do know that identifying perpetrators is not so simple. Even when the listeners are willing to believe it, the stories the kids tell are sometimes unclear and leave out details that indicate the severity of the situation. I still kick myself when I think of the three or four times that a friend of mine mentioned something his teacher did and I kept telling him to shut up. He said it half joking – I guess in case I didn’t believe him – and I thought he was being funny. It is only 20 years later that I realize what he probably wanted me to know.
I also was friends with someone who was a victim of abuse by an adult (NOT a rabbi) but she and several other victims would not testify because they were fragile people and all of their testifying would have brought only a misdamenor charge.
Meor is for girls who want to grow but some of them start off in different places like english music, videos, ‘dressing challenges’ and stuff, while others don’t. As long as you are actively looking to move upwards, you can try them. They are a hard place to get into though. The interview is painful for some and nobody ever knows what makes them decide who gets in and who doesn’t (THEY know exactly what they are doing, I’m saying the outside people never know). Ateres is less academic but lots of work. Also for people who want to BE more not just learn more. Less of those girls listen to music or have ‘dressing challenges’ going in. Both places want girls seriously looking to grow.
happiest – I can’t believe you said my idea! How weird is that? Were you stalking my neural pathways? I actually had that question asked of me (as a young adult) (and in a group setting) decades ago and I just remembered it as I was reading the OP.
Another – If I could make you an expert at anything, what would you pick?
If you could meet someone from the past, who would you chose?
way cool!
I’m sorry you feel that way. The Jothar bashers, in the name of peace, did plenty of damage to the atmosphere as well. As upsetting as his posts were to some, they never attacked people personally or to the extent he was attacked. I am not speaking in his defense, really I have less than zero interest in bringing that up again, but I was surprised to see how aggressive some posters got and would hate to live thru it a second time.
coffee addict – was that really necessary? And besides, Jothar is the one who said repeatedly that he refuses to accuse anyone and is waiting for a resolution/hoping for good news. Why not appeal to all the posters who threw HIM under the bus? Or better yet, why not drop the whole finger pointing and let the CR move on!!!!!!!!
NOOOO!! Say it isn’t so!!!
How will we find it? Will there be Cliff notes?
Avram in MD – In the spirit of continuing to steer this discussion to the generic (Please Gd) – It seems like there are two different issues involved with ‘security’, right? I mean, if someone figures out who I am (which has been done) than I have to be careful who I “open the door to” because they may not really be a friend. But if I never “open the door” to anyone I don’t recognize, is there still a danger? If I don’t have any bank accounts or credit cards online is there an identity theft risk? Or is it something else entirely?
Again, I’m asking about the danger in addition to the danger of friends who aren’t friends.
B”H!!!!
I’m confused. I heard that keurig’s have problems with tvila because it has a chamber that cannot be accessed when ‘dunked’.
My parents were childless for 10 years, with no physical possibility of having kids. My uncle was also childless and asked my father if he wanted to join him in contributing money to help a talmid chacham (not yet ‘famous’) publish a sefer he was writing. He did,and they are mentioned in the “thank you’s” of one of The Steiplers volumes. My father and his brother had 12 kids between them!
Because I have a house full of teenage sons!
BH – My husband and I went camping for two days in the mountains in Colorado. When we came out we heard on the radio people talking about the fall of the USSR. At first we couldn’t figure out what they were talking about. We felt like we woke up in the future. It was really weird.
“What’s it like?”
Dark and Loud is my guess.
I’m sorry Goq – I forgot there was a man here. Let me talk about something else. . . So anyways, I was fixing the blade on my lawn mower when my beer spilled all over my pocket sized gemara . . .
I have to laugh when people from NY say they recognize someone in the CR cuz when I ask NY friends about someone I know from their neighborhood – by name – they usually don’t know them. ( Cuz it’s such huge communities)
I really like chewy cookies and always apologize to the kids when I leave them in too long and they get hard. What I didn’t know was that they liked crispy better! Go figure.
I hated that song when it first came out I was forced to listen to it millions of times and now I really like it!!! Who feels the same way??
Sure. And why shouldn’t we? Many people here know others in the CR from other places. And some of us have gotten email addresses that weren’t extracted or requested for reasons other than the ones given.
I think a productive way of returning to a warm and cozy place would be to let mean, insulting, annoying, and over the top comments go unanswered when possible. Comments that are so inappropriate or are made to anger people should be ignored when possible and maybe the posters will give it up. Generally, the rebuttals to the posts and rebuttals to the rebuttals and heated words at the two rebuttal-ing (?) are what brings on the negative atmoshphere. And also, everyone should bring a home baked food with them when they come.
BTGuy – you are awesome and a tribute to your screen name. I chose my screen name to remind MYSELF to hold my tongue, not others, but I keep thinking I can change the world! Tizke L’Mitzvos, and may the strength I found to steer my energy elsewhere be a zchus to you!
Kapusta – Wow! To be called on by one of the famous and beloved posters! Thank you! I myself was wondering why I don’t just scan through the titles looking for safer and friendlier ground. I brought some chocolate chip cookies to share, what should we talk about?
BTGuy -I was so impressed with what you wrote. The first paragraph was my feelings exactly (regarding myself). Then it occurred to me you may be being sarcastic. I hope not because I don’t think I deserve that.
Either way, I will take your advice and find something else to do until I am on such a madreiga.
The cutting remarks have definitely surpassed my comfort level so I should be big enough to walk away, and I will try. I just don’t understand all the hostility. Being hostile to people for picking on other people makes no sense.
BTguy – I am confused about how you keep writing long posts against Jothar and then other long posts about shmiras halashon and respect for privacy.
And as much as many of you find Jothar’s posts annoying, the rebuttals are usually ten times longer, sharper and more personally directed. Even if I disagree with someone, I still wouldn’t want them jumped on. Why should a post like moi’s above be any more ‘okay’ than the things you are complaining about?
We all have different opinions and that’s life. None of us even has enough information to warrant our opinions valid, but yet we keep posting. And so many of us have begged everyone to go back to their corners and cut the personal digs but to no avail.If you want to post your thoughts, go right ahead, but can’t they be posted without putting others down?
And why do I care if this is just an anonymous forum of fake people making up information and opinions? Because I’m not so sure that it is. Some people here are very warm and genuine, and most of us are Yidden. And some people can walk away laughing, and some people walk away hurt.
Goq – “i blame jothar” pas nisht
HaLevei et al. – nobody ever said AYC was a stalker and her account is LOCKED not BLOCKED. All they are asking for is clarification at the request of the Kletzky’s from AYC herself. I have had private contact with AYC and I too am sure it is a misunderstanding, but I truly believe that so much worse damage is being done by posters asking why the CR and other posters have the audacity to say/do things that were NEVER even said. Then other posters are picking up on those misquotes and blowing them bigger. Can’t we just leave it be til we have a clue what we are talking about? The finger pointing and exageration is very damaging and hard to rectify.
I think its important for all of us to remember that sometimes we dont understand something because we dont have all the facts. Sure we can question, but why assume you know the whole story well enough to judge? I include myself in this because I too will jump to conclusions. Maybe we should talk about something else meanwhile, for instance how many of you posters shop at pomegranate on Thursday nights?
HaLevei- It was the Kletzky’s who were worried, not the mods. Why are you jumping on them? (Asked with a questioning tone, not a condescending one)
I feel like every post needs a disclaimer 🙁
When she said she was a Kletzky I thought she meant it figuratively, meaning that she wasn’t just a bystander of tragedy but among the victims. Either way, 42 said it may be a misunderstanding. Knowing how sensitive AYC has been to lesser charges, can we hold off on the gavel clop til we know more?
I think I personally approved of quite a few of your posts 😀
I was gonna say sinus too, I get that alot. Especially if you feel pain when you tap your face bones (not a technical term). But I would not feel comfortable not confirming it with a doctor.
Also – “considering the weather where I am is 30 one day 70 the next.” Is there any more obvious way of saying you live in Chicago?
🙂
I can only try – try you did, and thank you for it!!!
soliek – I think I meant more than that. Not “lit up” as in clear and defined. I meant lit up enough for them to see what Hashem does/wants with a certain (achievable)clarity and to really feel it’s light. The people I’ve talked to/worked with/lived with all have different reasons for being where they are but the Torah has all the answers and most of us never learned how to find them. We don’t know how to use the Torah as a coping skill, as a shoulder to lean on, as a direction or as a place to turn for strength. The path is not light enough for us to see all that we need to glean from it to cope with our own choices and “Choose life”. I think that’s what I meant.
your kids are waiting for their dinner that you forgot to make because you were busy posting.(For the record, I never did that!)
You know you’re not a yeshiva guy anymore when grilled cheese made on a space heater no longer sounds appealing.
soliek – How’s this for a shot at the “real reason”?
The reason people go off the path is because it wasn’t well lit.