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I don’t think my point was leaving home, and I didn’t think we were talking about struggling teens. I thought we were talking about how awful it is that males who don’t fit the mold are treated inferior “in the frum community” and I was trying to politely say that this may not really be the case everywhere. We are talking about it as if it is global. There are so many communities where people are really frum and you can still be different and respected. It was supposed to be chizuk, as in “don’t be discouraged, you can feel special and accepted in lots of frum circles”.
**As an aside, we couldn’t afford any of those choices either but when my kid is suffering there are no choices 🙂 **
aries +1 on both posts. This is one of my pet peeves and I couldn’t have said it better.
Nobody pried for details. A poster was berated for not taking the unspoken details in consideration. Aries first paragraph was dead on, but she was talking to the wrong party.In this instance, there was not alot of inferrence to be made. It was pretty clear who was being insulted and for what. I think mommamia, Sam and Feif were pretty kind and cool headed in their polite plea for returned kindness.
soliek – didn’t say it was easy 🙁 Maybe dorming? Depends on the kid. I think a part of my point is that lots is said about the “frum community” and I wish, for the readers sakes that people would say “the frum communities on the east coast” or in the tri state area or whatever. It’s not necessarily a frum problem, sometimes its a big-ciy problem, which means there are options. Let people know life is very different in different cities.
I happen to have a kid who needed an oot place but wasn’t ready to be sent oot. We ended up pulling him out of school and homeschooling him til he was ‘stronger’ and now we are sending him to bais medrash early. He didn’t fit any mold at all, and didn’t dress in white while he didn’t have to but people judged him by his behavior and how he carried himself and his reputation did not suffer. B”H it CAN be done.
I think it is important for people to realize that things are often said about stuff going on ‘in the frum community’, but they are not always talking about the frum community at all, rather the communities in which they live/are familiar. There are many issues I hear brought up in this context here that are not necessarily true in so called ‘oot’ communities. If things are that hard for you where you live, please consider a different frum community where things may be very different.
ROTFL midwesterner!!
LOVE it!
beged eisha
Wolf – love it!
One of my grandfathers was ‘tamid b’simcha’ but he was raised frum and left, was very into prust humor and as much as he was wonderful, and loved, I was worried about naming a son after him. I wanted very much to give kavod to my mother who was his favorite girl. I agonized about it but when my son was born on his birthday (two weeks after he was due) I felt it was what Hashem wanted. His name was Yirachmiel, which my mom assumed was for her father. To me it was a bracha that Hashem should have rachamim on people in situations like mine!
MCP – “And, if indeed there would be injustice or bullying going on here then it would, in fact, be everyone’s duty to dispute it. In the past, you expressed a view to the contrary, but I cannot fathom it.”
I think it depends on the ages. Male perps are pretty scary to little girls too. (not arguing, just adding)
Halevei – ‘nobody is putting down the moderators or Jothar’
you’ve got to be kidding
“And, if indeed there would be injustice or bullying going on here then it would, in fact, be everyone’s duty to dispute it.”
yes, and respectfully so, after being very careful to first get the facts.
“In the past, you expressed a view to the contrary, but I cannot fathom it.”
Never. Maybe I am mis understanding you, but the ONLY thing I ever comment (and re-comment and re-comment)on is that people aren’t being careful to hear what the person actually said before they attack it. And then the posts continue from there, never really checking back to see if the original post ever even stated the offensive comment that is being bashed. I don’t care if bullys or concepts are attcked, I care when posters get attacked, and many (many) times the poster never even said what he is being accused of saying. I obviously am not making myself clear, which explains why my pleas for shalom are usually ignored. I really, very much appreciate your taking the time to try.
Why is it worse for Jothar to ask a dumb question, then for you guys to put him down? If you don’t like his posts, ignore them. What you’re doing is also upsetting to the atmosphere around here.
awesome post – can we include all the posters who feel it is okay to put down everyone who they feel is doing that? It sounds like you are only commenting about the ones pointing out the trolls, how about the ones who feel free to berate them and anyone who sides with them? I have found that to be even harder to listen to.
And no shortage of posters happy to be stirred. and not in a good way.
Sounds like people enjoy jumping! Even though I have NO clue what Jothar’s point was, and I hate when he sets himself up for condemnation, if you READ the OP he does NOT say anything about the persons value as Jew. He asks why a person who is only trolling would pick a frum website if they themselves don’t keep shabbos and could go where ever they want. And Jothar, why do you say things that you know people will mis read and get upset by? Is that an issue of Lifnei Iver? Or do you really not see it til it happens?
And thirdly (if I counted right)who is even thinking that everyone on this site is frum, Jewish or anything else that they claim to be? Not every customer in a kosher pizza shop keeps kosher either.
(end rant)
My sister’s stones were calcium but my dad’s were oxylate (sp?) He had to avoid anything with that in it. The stones had to be checked to find out which mineral is being stored up and forming a stone instead of being filtered, then you have to avoid that mineral. Everything I would have said about the pain, drinking water, and lithotripsy has been said, but I will second it all. The pain had us in the er more than once for pain management. Sometimes the pain goes away before they ever confirm the stones.
I remember being bored.
I covered my ears for most of this discussion but what struck me was a comment (by someone somewhere) about wanting to do something for a daughter because she is just as loved as a son. Of course she is just as loved, but that has nothing at all to do with having a Shalom Zachor, bris or P”H. I wouldn’t want my girls in payis and I wouldn’t want my boys in skirts. I love my boys and thank Hashem thru the celebrations required of them. I love my girls and thank Hashem thru the kiddush and the blessing of not having to find something to wear one week after giving birth!
I have read muchon emunah so I apologize for not knowing which source to give but I have learned that Emunah is in no way blind faith. It is complete faith. Knowing it is true and beliving in the implications of its truth.
Rabbi Gottleib (Im pretty sure its him) from Ohr Sameach has awesome tape lectures on proof of the Torah Given at Sinai.
I think those of you who are unfamiliar with the rest of their lifestyle requirements may want to look into them before you continue. You may find that while you don’t like how its being said, you may not really disagree after all. One example is a requirement for all brides to be sampled before the wedding. There’s more but I probably shouldn’t of said that much.
Nechomah – Thank you
Or go to Starbucks and buy some tea.
You sound grouchy, go to Eichlers and buy something upbeat to listen to.
bpt – you are truly a role model. Sorry for pulling you in when I keep trying to find the off button myself . . .
Jothar – I have NO clue what you think I said, I was making a dumb joke. Yossi z. hasn’t been on much and the OP said it was dumb that we post to the mods so I was being “funny” by telling the mods that Yossi was on.
YT – you’ve got it all wrong. Fmale is NOT a typo, it’s a form of email. Didn’t you read the article?
I still hold its BPT
Although I think popa is hysterical, and buying tea is stupid, I actually find this thread more offensive then the aforemention, now closed thread! You may not agree with usa-trailian, but it isn’t necessary to ‘shtoch’ him like that.
sheesh – I can’t tell you how many times I have felt that about other threads (and posters) but I was kind enough to click elsewhere and keep my feelings to myself. (exits pouting)
aries – thank you so much for your answers. I see we deal with two very different sets of survivors, but have a very common cause. If you don’t mind agreeing to disagree tho, I PERSONALLY don’t see the behavior of the above professionals and friends/family any more excusable than of the Rabbis who THINK (in their own minds) that they also have good reason. I think they are both dead wrong and that you should either condemn both, or excuse both. But I do agree with you that there would be safety in numbers. And I, for one, will continue to do what I can to make change. Thanks again for the straightforward answers.
shoshanaz – sorry about the Rabbi’s response, I wish you much strength and only good memories.
I’ve never used ‘truth’ and ‘fashion’ in the same sentence. I personally wear only black skirts because I am unable to match clothing. When my father (an artist) was alive I wore colors only after he confirmed that they worked together. But you are correct, in my sons Bar mitzvah pics everything is black or white except my purple shirt. I felt like Willy Wonka!
When my hashkafically intact son asked to wear colored shirts outside of Yeshiva (our oldest boy, no real precedence had been set yet)I reluctantly said yes,but when he asked for a gaming system I said no. I think it important to educate our children with an understanding of the difference between what is proper ben Torah behavior, and what is preferred ben Torah behavior. I personally think he will behave and be spoken to differently if he is in more formal wear, but I don’t believe wearing it against his will will accomplish that.
Zk – I think aries had already changed her tone very much in her last couple posts as noted by some above.
I vote for making it a general, overall request that the news people check their spelling more carefully AND check the accuracy of the headline as it applies to what is actually in the article.
hi yossi!
mods- did you notice yossi’s back?
so true.
“when did it become taboo to wear color?”
Honestly, I think it was the day someone said black makes you look thinner, lol.
aries – Thank you so much for clarifying all that. I think I understand that better. But I still don’t think any of my questions were answered. I still however don’t understand why its okay for the friends and family of the victims to be quiet instead of leaving town. Why would the Ohel people agree not to report? So lose your job! And if you don’t, than you are making that same choice to protect an abuser for whatever personal negi’us you have chosen to do so. I personally am not understanding why that is not protecting an abuser. If the victims were speaking out then the bloggers wouldnt have to. If 50 victims spoke, if 100 victims spoke, threats wouldn’t work.They can’t burn down EVERYONE’s houses.
In my experience it has been the families of the victims protecting THEMSELVES who have done the sweeping. It has been the families who want to pretend it never happened, who choose to sit and cry, insisting their hands are tied, instead of prosecuting.I see them as no different then those Rabbis. Although I don’t doubt a single word of what you have experienced, I am not sure why these families and friends can be excused when I have found over again that they are the ones who are really protecting the molesters. I even said as much to a mom who blamed a rabbi for doing nothing, yet she pretended to her public that it never happened! A Rabbi I know has been insisting a certain person be reported to the police but the victims supporters refuse.
I don’t blame the victims for being silent, but, in my years of experience, it isn’t just the rabbis preventing change. People need to get up and tell their stories and name names. When it isn’t true it will have to be dealt with. But the families and supporters and professionals have to stop giving in and claiming that they have no choice. Everyone has a choice. And if someone chooses to be silent and they feel they have good reason to do so, than they should just know that they are no different than the ones being accused.
Sorry about the tone, this is a very sore point of mine.
Mike – you have great points but I have to say that I feel caught in the cross fire. Those who follow blindly and scream for silence are no less aggressive and dramatic with their views than the bloggers and anti’s. I feel like I need a helmet! I want to hear what both sides have to say (even though I know exactly where I stand) and there has to be a way to do it with much passion but less aggression. For instance, sticking to facts, avoiding sweeping statements, validating valid points and exaggeration etc. Don’t really see either side doing that well(Except for Zehavasdad’s and littleapple’s last posts). I believe with my whole heart that with all of these emotional topics (and this is one of many) we could educate more people if we took deep breaths and exercised more listening skills. It is something I work hard to do. Not speaking about you specifically, speaking to myself and anyone willing to listen.
point of Shalom – I think we can agree that there is a HUGE reason to be angry, and we NEED to agree that although there are many Rabbaim who are making very bad and dangerous choices, we can NEVER say “all” are doing so. It is the sweeping statements that keep making people defensive and sidetacking them from hearing. Be angry at those who deserve it and pass it around til it stops, but please don’t include any extras in the rants. I know some Rabbis who have come around and deserve not to be lumped in the same sentence.
Also, aries, can you help me understand (because I’ve handled it differently so I really am wanting to know, not arguing) why the families who allow themselves to be silenced, or why the advocates who are silenced are different than the big wigs who close their eyes. I assume I am missing a piece of information and am not making a judgement, but I do not understand the difference. The ones who actually have the experiences and info would be the ones who should be pushing, shouldn’t they? (In my experiences, the ones who didn’t report did so because it was their choice, not blackmail)
I have a theory – a new mod just started as bpt so quietly faded into the sunset . . .
goq – didn’t you like my joke? <sniffle>
Hey – who thinks we just found BPT?!?!?!?!
ooh I am so jealous
I will do 11-20
Did you have a ‘ball’? 😀
So how am I supposed to make sure I don’t have his books? Why don’t I know his name? Just because the peers wont out him, why aren’t the lay people? I don’t understand why the victims remain quiet from begging. What do they have to lose by saying no? It can’t be that they feel bad, what are they being threatened with? I don’t get it? The people I deal with are not those who’s abusers are being protected, they are Rabbis who lost their jobs, fathers, brothers, friends fathers – you get the picture. What makes a person give in to that pressure knowing how much he is suffering?
Here’s an interesting perspective. Please do not pass judgement on this person, just add it to your data base. A girl who was personally abused for years as a little girl by a frum, non-rabbi in the community was in a place where she saw, off to the side somewhere, the perpetrator and a 16 year old girl. She said she KNEW where they were going, KNEW what this girl was gonna go thru, and couldn’t bring herself to do anything. She said and did nothing, but has never forgiven herself. So we may THINK that we will be supermoms, but we don’t really KNOW anything. And GD FORBID we should ever be tested.
msseeker – while I agree with everything you are saying I gotta tell ya, it really is that bad.
aries – I don’t understand why the Rav said his hands are tied. A person at the Aguda telling him to be quiet shouldn’t mean anything to him in this situation. What kind of a person is he to have made that choice? I don’t understand why you aren’t triple angry with him for cowering than at individuals who are brazen enough to request it? That actually makes me madder than the requesting and abusing does. I know very well whats out there, and I totally get the people who are unable to see it and pretend it aint so, but I don’t get someone knowing and saying their hands are tied. So lose your darn position and save the kids!
(I’m yelling at the topic- not at you)
I think a lot of posters would attend because it is informative and not political This is the second year that our city is doing this. You can pick the date/school location/speaker that is most appealing to you but you are told EACH parent MUST attend at least one. I didn’t hear of anyone refusing or protesting the project. Can we try pushing this on some other cities?
Maybe individual groups of parents would be willing to insist that their school does a presentation, if the community heads don’t seem able to make it happen. It isn’t complicated, the speakers are out there and disseminating the information is the first step. Even a school with the problem wouldn’t dare to refuse a group of parents insisting on a speaker of this kind? Any takers?