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One final word before I go Neville.
I don’t think anyone has the right to put anyone’s beliefs down.
You compared MO to the frum world. I guess MO aren’t frum for you.
I don’t believe MO is the real deal any more than hareidi. Everyone should choose what resonates with them.
I find a lot of hostility in the CR. I don’t mean towards me. i have experienced very little.
Take good care.
Litvish background.
And thanks for the correction regarding rav Lichtenstein.
Anyhow, i will be taking a break from the CR, because I am running low on Tylenol.
CS, I think i got the answer from your non-answer. It gives me no pleasure to say that I now see Neville’s point.
“Stop with the issue-skirting strategies they taught you in shliach school and tell us straight that you believe the Rebbe is moshiach.”
Although I doubt CS believes the Rebbe is moshiach – and she can correct me if I am wrong – I give you props Neville for the direct and hilarious way you summed up your complaint.
CS, not to put you on the spot, but yes or no: do you believe that Rabbi M.M. Schneerson A”H may possibly be the Moshiach? Or do you believe he is precluded on the sole basis of his petirah.
Syag,
I told her she was wrong. Then I followed with an explanation.
You just said I am wrong.
Anyhow, I have read up on the term. I know Prof Kaplan personally and he has written extensively on the topic.
If you can show me any literature on the topic I would be happy to read it.
I know the term daas torah seems to have an obvious literal meaning. But there is more to it. It was expressly invented to create a policy shift among the people in order to unify political entities, namely agudas yisroel and the chasidim.
Neville thanks for the chuckle.
I am not knee-deep in anything. I have spent 7 years in a litvish primary school, 5 years in a chassidish high school, and one year in a chardal yeshiva.
Father from chassidish background, mother from background.
On the ashkenazi front, nobody has had a more balanced “indoctrination” than I.
Syag, you put me down, but don’t add anything other than the putdown.
If you have nothing nice or productive to say, please don’t waste everyone’s time.
Lo mat’im lecha.
RSo and CS,
You are both nuts (I say that with love).
CS is a staunch lubavicher and follows the lubavich way.
RSO…..not so much.You will never convince each other in this matter. You have exhausted this topic. Move on.
Winnie, you don’t know what Daas Torah is. Your posuk on devorim does not contain the words “daas torah”.
The term Daas Torah was coined 100 years ago and has a special connotation, which is to rely on Rabbis to decide EVERYTHING for you, even when there is no question of halacha or even hashkofo. The concept came from the hasidic relationship with a Rebbe and was adopted in a decision by Agudas yisroel 100 years ago.
Taken to the extreme, a Rabbi would be consulted along with a doctor for every medical decision. My father, with his chasidic upbringing, did this concerning a derious surgery for my then-young brother. BH he is fine.
Some in the Yeshiva University world, such a Rav Aharon Lichtenstein A”H, do subscribe to Daas Torah.
Of course MO listen to Rabbo im concerning Halacha and Hashkofo.
I gave a reference but you didn’t bother to check it, and you were quick to censure modern orthodoxy.
In reference to your censure (not censorship) of GadolHadorah’s last post, i ask the moderator:
Are modern orthodox concepts not permitted on this site? Daas Torah is a chareidi concept and 100 years old. Modern orthodoxy has no concept of daas torah. In fact daas torah was invented as a guard against modern orthodoxy. See Prof Lawrence Kaplan, Modern orthodox, YU alum, biographer of Rav jB Soloveichik,
I will discuss it with my Rov and let you know…
This conversation has focused only on special relativity.
General relativity factors in gravity as well.Both these relativitiess cause gps satellites’ clocks to differ from clocks on earth.
The best way to learn this stuff is by google searches.
Haime, censure means something else.
You meant censorship.Moderator, you know he meant censorship. Of course it is his word; he is asking the question.
Ben Shapiro has an excellent argument against the pursuit of equality. He notes that Bill Gates is far richer than he is, but it doesn’t matter, because Ben has enough. The goal therefore is to ensure that everyone has enough to live with dignity, not to take money away from the rich only because the less wealthy don’t have as much.
RSo I like your take on waiting for moshiach every day.
Assuming that anyone actually “expects” moshiach to come “today” , and he does this every day, this would lead one to abandon his expectation because he has been proven wrong every day (though today is not over). Its like the kid who gets disappointed by his absentee dad that keeps breaking promises to spend time with him. Eventually he grows to distrust, resent, and RL even hate the dad.
Are you sure the take on this that you disagree with isn’t that every day is a candidate day, i.e. there is no reason to believe that today is not the day?
“and maybe the frum zionists in their own way”.
Why “in their own way”? You might not admit it to yourself, but that is condescending.
You can defend it all you want, but “in your their own way” , uttered by anyone in any circumstance, is always condescending.
I don’t take offense, but there is some gaavah in there. Think about it.
We can be waiting for moshiach to come today or for the announcement to come today.
Makes little difference. If the announcement comes today that it is now T minus 3 days I guarantee everyone will be thrilled and there will be dancing in the streets (even the litvish will dance, won’t that be a sight 😉).
samthenylic,
Are you saying that you are itching to make Aliyah but are holding yourself back in order to help the yidden in
EY?
Forgive me, but if you believe that, you are lying to yourself imho. Furthermore, you can help plenty in EY, and the rest of us can make the sacrifice and stay in chul.BTW, as an interesting aside, I heard with my own ears (on video) the lubavitcher Rebbe state that he stayed in chul for the benefit of those in chul, and that he would not even visit EY until he got a psuk that he would be permitted to return, which evidently he never got to his satisfaction.
I can corroborate knaidlach’s claim the chabad spends most of the time learning gemara and halocha.
Though I am not chasidic or lubavitch, I went to a lubavich high school. We spent all morning learning the exact same stuff as the litvish school i had transfered from.
About 1/2 my classmates didn’t take “English” aka secular studies, and I guess they had some tanya classes in the afternoon (I never asked what they learned in the afternoon).
So if they did learn/obsess over geulah, it was at the time that the litvish boys were studying math and history.
I think people think that chabad is overly preoccupied with moshiach because this is a main talking point. Remember that chabad is outward-facing and their chosen tafkid is to push an agenda, and they have been very successful in kiruv.
Chabad is not interested in being mekarev the frum. In fact I believe CS is not here to push her agenda but she is here out if the love of sharing ideas about yiddishkeit, both chabad and others (not guessing, this she stated and i take it at face value).
As for the talking point of moshiach on billboards etc, this is what they believe, and it makes a compelling story intended i think to attract the lost sheep. The consequence of these campaigns seems to rub the non-chabad frum crowd the wrong way. Get over it (please).
The fact that there are 125 plus posts on this thread os proof that there is no universally-accepted gadol hador at this time.
Sorry folks, now you can back to your lives.As an objective observer of this argument between CS and several others, I am glad to see that everyone expressed their underlying beefs and feeling, and all this without vitriol, and in fact with respect.
This is a healthy thing, and I believe will lead to much healthier debate and discussion in all threads.
Let’s all take the gloves off and congratulate yourselves on putting your gripes out there in a respectful and articulate way.
And move on!
This has turned out to be the first thread that has given me a good feeling.
CS, you know very well there has unfortunately been animus between various factions, Satmar vs Chabad, Satmar vs belz, to name the most well-known.
It is therefore regrettable but not unexpected that some chasidim, particularly from the Romanian/Hungarian crowd, will disrespect the rebbe of lubavitch.
CS, there is nothing wrong if something is only a Lubavich thing. As a lubavicher chasid you rightly consider the rebbe as a gadol and a source in his own right.
If other’s don’t accept that as good enough for them, that is their right.
Everyone gets to decide what gadol is right for them
Nobody gets to put the other’s gadol down.
This is not a schoolyard contest of my gadol is bigger than yours.If you mean me, CS, no need to respond to me.
Enjoy the chabad thingy. I watched for 10 minutes then got bored. But if i were a shliach it would be my highlight of the year i am sureI can’t take this stupidity any longer. Jail or 35000.00? Gimme a break.
CS, you have a division within Chabad between the Moshichists and the non Moshichists.
Clearly the Rebbe, notwithstanding the amazing work he accomplished, left plenty of room for uncertainty.
Furthermore, I think it is safe to say that virtually all controversy surrounding Chabad surrounds the topic if mochiach.
If I were in Chabad, I would take this as a clear message to from my customers to free up the shelf space for better selling products.
Non political:
In a nutshell a woman may wear tsitsis unless she seems to demonstrate that she doesn’t agree that the obligation is on men only. WOW is the perfect example of what is not permitted. Women in conservative shuls who were the same taleisim as men, also not permitted (although I have observed that most of those taleisim have tsitsis that are not kosher anyhow;I checked myself in a few places just for curiosity lol).Secretly wearing is ok, or on a feminine garment.
I imagine you disagree, but if the community generally doesn’t do something, but it is permitted al pi halacha, that won’t stop me from doing it privately. Publically is different, because I dont want to lead people ato be choshed b’ksheirim.I am pretty much done with this topic, so if you rebut anything here, I will let you have the last word.
Shavua tov and Gutte voch.
Rebyidd,
There is no “THE” custom. Customs are community-dependent. That’s why you hear people say “our minhag …”.
Customs are also not halacha, which is what we are talking about.
WOW women are troublemakers who enjoy being in the spotlight. Many conservative jews will tell you that.
They do their schtick at the kosel knowing they will get leople’s blood boiling and they love it. If they didn’t have this cause they would find another one.There may be 100 jewish women, there may be 1,000,000 jewish women, who secretly wear tsitsis, in keeping with halacha.
We don’t know because it’s ……… a secret.
ChabadShucha, do you maintain that a woman needs to request permission from a Rov to wear Tsitsis? You mentioned “request”. Or did you mean it another way?
According to Rambam, whoever learns all day and lives from charity gets no place in olam haba.
If the money was given by a donor with the intent to allow learning, it is ok. Often times though the monies for learning and tzedakah are mixed.
Welfare is charity.
Ideally, even rabbanim should not be paid. Religion is not a business to make money. Well, it us. But it is not supposed to be.
Oy gevalt this is the second dangerous post i see in 3 minutes.
Your child is not your property. Are you you out of your mind? I sincerely hope you don’t have children if this us your real belief.
If you are joking, not funny. Don’t make jokes that could be taken as serious by impressionable people
bachur3,
Are you for real? The idea that we are permitted to steal from goyim is a huge aveira, immoral, criminal, and a cause of antisemitism.
If you are serious, you are a dangerous person. Just talking about it, even in jest, is dangerous. G-d help us if there are more people who think like you.
Derech Eretz has a handful of meanings.
The most common in everyday speech is behaving respectfully. Of course we are supposed to treat everyone with respect, but the term is most often used when teaching children to have Derech Eretz for parents and any rebbe or menahel or rosh yeshiva in school, as well as adults. Kids are taught to “have derech eretz” for a rebbe when enters a class room. It can be seen as the opposite of chutzpah.
The second most common spin on derech eretz, i believe, is as a synonym for mensch.
Third most popular meaning of Derech Eretz afaik refers to earning a living (parnassa).
This is not an exhaustive list.
yitzchokm,
We are in agreement that there are women who wear tstsis davka to show that men and women ought to have the same roles in Avoidas Hashem. We all agree that this is contrary to avodas hashem.
My angle, and it comes up quite often in the CR, is that posters are often trigger happy on the weapon of condemnation.
There are plenty of circumstances under which women wearing tsitsis is permitted. I am not talking about Women of the Wall.
I doubt R Moshe used the exact verbiage you presented. He may have been referring to Women of the Wall types who put on a rebellious show.
R Moshe was a brilliant posek but not a navi. He didn’t know of all the women in the world who wear tsitsis in halachically acceptable ways with hearts consumed with a isas hashem.
My mission here is not to appear smart or to argue. I just would like people to err on the side of kaf z’chus
Chabadshlucha,
Let’s back up a little.
I would like to be clear of what we are talking about to get some common ground. Tell me if you agree or disagree:
Women are permitted to wear tsitsis as long as
(i) they are not intending it as a display of egalitarianism and (ii) they wear the tsitsis discreetly or make the garment in the form of feminine clothingLet’s assume that no brocha is uttered.
Permitted or not?
“Not Avodas hashem”, as you word it more recently Shlucha, is vastly different from “opposite of avodas hashem”
Regarding Rashi’s daughters wearing tsitsis and or tefilin, and if so, weather with or without saying a brocha, there is no proof one way or the other. There us no way to know for the time being. Sorry folks, I know this is not very satisfying.
Chabadshlucha, i don’t want to make a big thing out of this, but my take on “opposite of Avodas Hashem” is pajorative, and does not apply to the misguided.
I don’t mind agreeing to disagree.
“Also being that I am expecting to see moshiach in the near future, it does look like something that will directly impact me as well.”
Ever heard of Techiyas Hameisim? Not to imply CV that the annointed one won’t be revealed as early as today.“usually women wearing Tzitzis is associated with the complete opposite than serving Hashem”.
People are quick to judge others. Ruach Hakodesh anyone? Psychic abilities? Who can read these girls, and ladies’ minds, for it is their kavonos that are the deteminant.No offense intended, but don’t we have enough to worry about with our current obligations?
On the other hand, it is frankly nice that your fantasies take you to lofty places. It is symptomatic of a pure soul imho
I don’t think you need to add nosyonos for the sake of it; there are plenty already.
That said, some communities are sheltered to the point that their members can’t function in the world.
We were meant to make a positive impact on the world. I am not a chabadnick, but I laud the way they fearlessly reach out to chilonim and even gentiles to make the world a better place. And they do it with positivity, not fear mongering. The chabad young men and women who stay on the derech do it out of free will, not because the are trapped by ignorance of the real world.
I have never seen anyone bring a gift on shabbos.
Flowers before shabbos are the ultimate gift imho. Sems along some antihistamine just in case.TheFakeMaven,
I admit that I didn’t read all of AviK’s posts. If he was disrespectful then my comments apply to him as well.
Points are orthogonal to character, but I and perhaps others can’t read the points when the nastiness comes out.
My suggestion: if someone is disrespectful, give then a warning to tone it down, and cut them off if they continue. Please don’t answer back with insults.
No need to answer me. Please consider what I said.
TheFakeMaven,
Your ad hominem attacks make it impossible for me to read what you write.
What is the point of all your learning if you can’t behave respectfully? Derech Eretz kodmah l’Torah.
Its time for the truth, I don’t know what I wrote that you are critisizing for trying to tie myself in knots.
As far as I know, the only opinions I expressed are that I am not a fan if recreational drugs and that I liked Rav Bender’s video. I also referenced a chabad link but offered no opinion on it.
Please clarify.
CTRebbe,
I have an answer to your post, but we can’t have a debate on the internet, so I won’t state it here.
Gadolhadorah, I would like you to read this, and tell me if you believe recreational weed is ok (where legal).
As for medicinal, no hechsher is required anyhow, as far as the psak I am aware of (also discussed in the link i believe).
I have never started a thread, but if i ever do, I don’t want it to be on recreational drugs. I am not a fan. Not judging others though.
Thank you iacisrmma.
I watched the video upon your recommendation. This Rabbi epitomizes yiddishkeit. He looks for the good in leople. He recognizes that the kedoshim were trying to get close to Hashem in the way they knew how. We can all learn from him how to think of fellow yidden.GadolHadorah, are you in Canada taking advantage of the new law? Your last post is incoherent .
RebYidd do you have experience with guns or are you shooting in the dark? Modern firearms have excellent accident-prevention features.
Jews are not pacifists. One ex-jew – whose name i omit – maybe.
Lakol zman va’eis (koheles, ecclesiastes)