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But…I don’t understand your anger.
1. The pro-vaccine book is discredited by a profit making researcher. In Judaism that’s called ?????? !
2. I’m saying to calm down because there is no reason to personalize or get angry but just to have a friendly chat about an important topic. In Judaism it’s called ?? ????? ???? ?’ ??? ?? ????
3. I am only bringing up points for others to ponder. I am not being ???? ?????? with my ?????. In Judaism it’s called ??? ???? ??? ?????
4. The reason I bring up health it’s because you will almost always find the anti crowd being more health oriented taking a proactive stand on their health etc…that speaks volumes. In Judaism that’s called ??????? ???? ?????????
1. My friend asked him and his exact words were “?????? ??????”
2. Reb Elya Ber is well known as he unfortunately has first hand experience. Also, quoted in Peach magazine which was distributed in Lakewood. Let’s not get into Slifkin now…..please !
3. ?????? ????? Reb Shmuel is consistent in his view and is definitely someone you can rely on. He is living proof as to the power of food & exercize on health. ??? ??? ??? he is 90 and is in better shape than all the Rosh Yeshiva’s 30 years younger who asked him to retract!
1. Read a little on of the leaders of the anti crowd movement Barbara Joe Fisher. She was a regular mother who saw how vaccines injured her child.
2. Please forgive me, why is it mathematically impossible? don’t understand.
3. Read again. I didn’t mention “evaluating studies”, but nutrition and exercise and effect on health. Again, i wrote researched a little. I am in no way an expert.
4. Yes, my friend. Lives ARE at risk and that’s why i am posting. You should really just chill a little because even without the vaccines, the stress alone can kill you 🙂
Sam2 – But Reb Chaim Kaneivsky, Reb Shmuel Kamenetsky, and Reb Elya Ber Wachtfogel would never say to go bungee jumping BUT THEY DO SAY NOT TO VACCINATE. So, i am in very good company. As I’m sure you will provide names on the pro-camp, my point is well understood (if you are not arguing ?????).
Ubiquitin –
1. My name says it all. I’m “stam a deya”. Just an opinion. I don’t pretend to be something i’m not. As for you my friend, i strongly suggest you broaden your horizons beyond the “medical establishment”. Once this avoda zara is broken, you will be open to new ideas.
2. You did not provide me with the one study i seek because it does not exist and for obvious reasons. 1,000 or more participants or more on each side for 20 years looking at all angles.
3. I would venture to say that the anti crowd are head and shoulders above the pro in all matters of health, nutrition, exercize, etc…from the people i debate in person. it is all ??????! The medical people want to solve everything with drugs and vaccines while the anti take their health in their own hands understanding the shortcomings of doctors. I will leave the labeling of “informed” and “not informed” to you…..
4. Take a deep breath…..
Try also ???? ????? which takes out the most “usable” quotes on the text of hagada itself.
Akuperma –
Isn’t the statistics of autism one in 100 ?
Ubiquiten
1. I don’t “accept Wakefield” and I don’t disqualify him since i do not know enough to judge his studies. But I certainly do not accept the govt. and media assassination of him.
2. Autism is only one piece of pie. Again, i do not know enough to comment on any one study. I want to know the whole picture and that can only be done with the large scale study with all sides involved as i and others have suggested.
3. It is inconceivable to me that Hashem would punish someone for vaccinating or not vaccinating. If the parent is sincerely making his informed choice than he will not punish for erring. That’s simply impossible in hashkafa. On the other hand, if someone understands the dangers involved and makes a choice out of laziness etc….
4. I sense a little irritation on your part in responding to my posts. We are having a friendly chat and I mean no nastiness in my remarks. I apologize if you took it that way. It’s funny how sometimes this topic makes others (not you ofcourse) violent on both sides…..
1.
but….in “our circles” your Dr. Offit is known as Dr. Profit. Google his name and CBSnews….He is profited millions in developing vaccines. Therefore, i can’t respect him. Maybe I’m wrong but those are my feelings. Research him a little and i am interested to know if you come to same conclusion. I happen to have his book as well but did not finish yet. Again, i am sharing a little of my research with you from the little I know. If I am scaring you or people like your shver, than that’s great!! Vaccines are a very serious matter and you should only proceed with them with great trepidation and alot of tehillim and tzdaka beseeching Hashem that you are doing what you believe is for the good of your child and the rest is in his hands. In short, make an informed decision and proceed with great caution.
Sam 2 – I respectfully ask you do some research and you will come accross graphs and statistics. They pro-vaccine will show you how in the 1930 or 40s when vaccines were introduced until now the line graph goes way way down. What they don’t show you that already in the year 1900 BEFORE the vaccines were introduced, the line graph goes way way down. I have not seen any rebuttals on this. (As an aside, scarlet fever and typhoid is also (I believe) non-existent but there are no vaccines for them…)
Ubiquitin – I write supposedly because there are many that still hold that his studies stand! But, i am not asking you to believe them. What can i tell you my friend? I just don’t trust the govt. and medical establishment since there is so much money involved. Vaccines are more of a culprit than computer use, becuase with computer use, we are not injecting dozens of foreign substances in a one month old baby. I think you can understand the difference. Besides, way too many instances where the parents say their children were fine until the vaccines started.
I say to both of you, spend ten hours online reading the other side with an open mind. you might start to see things differently. there was no bigger skeptic than myself to natural health etc…but b”h i was honest enough to entertain the other side and that’s why i think the way i think now. The chovos halevos says: one should daven for health since we do not know the decisions we make regarding health are the right ones. Hashem obviously will not punish someone for making a wrong decision – but i wonder if he will punish someone who makes an uninformed one!
Syag – Try it for yourself. Ask your doctor how many hours did you learn about nutrition in school. I’m not attacking doctors of bad faith – just poor education as far as nutrition etc goes.
Catch Yourself – Again, my ???? on both sides is that they only tell you half the story. There are definite serious risks and vaccines do save lives. The question is it worth it. The doctors minimize the risks. For the better part of my life, doctors have been almost Godly to me where i never questioned anything they say. The more I educated myself, the less respect i developed for them. Not personally ofcourse, but rather their brand of medicine….Read up a little on naturapathic medicine. It is simply a fascinating education.
Ubiquitin – This doctor is a big name doctor here in town.
you missed my point twice ! I said eventhough Wakefield is discredited, the theory stands. There are way too many unexplained diseases that vaccines can be the culprit. Use common sense, my daughter took her one month old baby and vaccinated for hepatitis which is transmitted through bodily fluid ! Does that make sense. As a child I have a few vaccines and now my grandchildren are looking at receiving over 100 doses! what does that do to their immunity ??? does anyone know? the burden of proof is on them to prove the safety and i am not convinced.
Hey Catch Yourself – Just for the record, my father is a doctor and my wife a nurse ! Just like neither has a clue about nutrition on health except for the “couple of hours” they learned in Med. and Nursing school, they know nothing about the dangers of the vaccines. My own doctor tells me “I know nothing about health – i only know how to prescribe drugs!!” It is the allopathic method of practicing medicine compared to naturopathic. The anti-vaccine crowd belong to the latter. One thing i have learnt in my pursuit of health and that is you cannot separate the money and politics away from the health advice and medicine AND MY FATHER WILL BE THE FIRST TO AGREE !!!!
1. “1000 people wouldnt have enough power to detemine if there is ANY difference” – don’t understand. please elaborate.
2. “Randomized controlled study would not be ethical”. heard this before (when a friend wanted to debate me and he Googled this question). There are literally thousands upon thousands of families that don’t vaccinate anyways and i’m sure for a few bucks they would participate so this does not make sense.
3. Case studies have to be looked at over many many years taking into account other social factors (for ex. they should be from same class of people.
4. You ask about autism. Just because he was supposedly discredited does not discredit the theory until the above study is conducted.
5. Your aside is not understood. sorry.
6. Google vaccine courts and you will understand that vaccine companies at one point stopped producing vaccines due to lawsuits. The govt. stepped in and made special vaccine courts that have paid out billions for injuries thereby absolving the companies of any liability. There is a surcharge on all vaccines to pay for these injuries.
I want to end by saying that i am by no means an expert on the subject and am searching the truth like everyone else. But, when i see the billions and trillions of dollars that drug companies make every year, i think to myself who am i trusting with my health? There is simply too much money involved to trust the govt. on this. They have to prove to me that is safe, i don’t have to prove that it is unsafe. Until above test is done, i lean more on side of caution.
Syag – I am not saying NOT to vaccinated. I am saying that anyone who thinks it’s 100 percent safe is a fool. Billions of dollars has already been paid for vaccine injuries. My children are all past the age of vaccinations and we did vaccinated. I am thankful i don’t have to make these decisions today based on what i do know now. Now i have to contend with my grandchildren…..
Ubiquiten – 20 YEARS study please taking into account EVERYTHING from autism to cancer to leukemia to learning disabilities to ear infections to sids etc. etc.. etc……1000 or more people involved on each side. Will look out for your reply.
….and obviously they should be followed from birth to age 20 to get an accurate picture and not like the doctors do to check for a few days.
Daas Yochid – Excellent point. I challenge you to find one study comparing 1,000 vaccinated children to 1,000 non-vaccinated children so we can compare how many get damaged from vaccines. Surely if vaccines are as safe as you say, let the company spend a few million dollars (what they make from one vaccine in one year!) and settle the case once and for all ! I will let you decide why they don’t…Spend a few hours researching on line – in an honest way with an open mind. You might very well surprise yourself….
Yeah….Go make fun of the anti-vaccine people like my neighbor whose son died on the way back from the doctor in his car seat. Just a coincidence, right? How foolish of them…..
??”? ???? ???? ???? ??? (?) ??”? ???? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?? ??? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? ??????.
it is a chiyuv drabanan like any other chiyuv drabanan
I haven’t read all the posts but perhaps the following is helpful. I had a nephew who almost went off….his father is a respected Rosh Yeshiva and a very choshuv family. He basically left yeshiva in his teens, went to work in a resteraunt for a few years in Yerushalayim, and started hanging out with all the wrong people etc…Now he has made a complete turnaround ! What happened to him is interesting. He felt so pressured from Israeli chareidi society where everyone has to perform and if not, they are not accepted etc. He came to America for a few months and we as his extended family accepted him for what he is and offered to find him a job or anything he needed until he can decide what he wanted to do with his life. I use to tell him, “I don’t care if you learn or not, I just want you to be happy. If you want to learn, I will find you a yeshiva, if you want to work I will find you a job. Just be happy”. It worked beautifully. He was finally accepted for what he was. The three months he spent here, he was able to think (for the first time in his life) without all the pressure of Israeli society and he went back and put his life back together. He even wanted to break his smartphone ! Hope this helps.
Why don’t you try Toras Moshe or Bais Yisroel instead ?
A Rosh Yeshiva called me once to write an essay for his daughter in BJJ. I sat down with my massive library and tools and could not complete the assignment. It was so silly….When my own daughter went (she didn’t really ask me….), I told her in no uncertain terms that she will not get help from me !!! Absolutely ridicuolous. I was coined the phrase that we pay $15,000-$20,000 tuition for seminary “to teach our daughters about ???????”. Totally outrageous.
how about not going on line until the end of war ?