squeak

not correct areivim, especially not if I’m a “29 year old bachelor”

JW (or jay-dub for short) means Jew, and for some reason SYs use it to refer to “itchies”, as if they themselves are not Jews.

I discussed this topic with someone offline (a real live person, just like moish’s friends) and that person had an additional insight which I agree with. The person who is in the situation (e.g. the woman who has no children, or if you want to extend the topic, the single girl who wants to talk to her married friends), has the opportunity to set the record straight and establish boundaries. She can tell her friends, listen, I know that this difference is going to make me feel hurt. Here’s what you can talk to me about and here’s what you should avoid so that we can maintain this friendship without strain and tenseness.

This way, you don’t have to goose step. Get it out in the open and be done with it.

But, I wouldn’t recommend that the other side initiate this dialogue. And since this thread was started by SJS, it doesn’t help her at all. Maybe it can help someone else who is reading though.

I think that the mods have mostly stopped posting under regular sn now that they have real identities (e.g. 72, 99, etc). But that’s just a guess.

As for the enforcement, I think that they are sometimes inconsistent, though never selective. Meaning that everyone is treated equally, but sometimes the standards rise and fall. The decision is sometimes so subjective that it is impossible to enforce the stadards consistently.

As the saying goes, “You can’t be consistent all the time”.

charlie, I would help you, but I can’t type sideways.

areivim, is there a psychologist working at the computer programming place around the corner from you? That’s weird. What do they need one for (besides the obvious)?

squeak did not have these tapes in his childhood.

… not if you’re Dizzy….

ames, I’ll answer to the best of my knowledge.

True evil can only come from bechirah, i.e. choosing to do evil. You are correct that shaidim and mazikim were created to do destructive things and that it is Hashem’s will that they fulfill this tafkid. But are their jobs not to perform acts of evil? They are not punishable for it, because that is their tafkid and they have no ability to do otherwise. But if a person did those acts they would be punished for it.

Hashem created darkness. The choshech mitzraim was not merely the absence of light. It was a briah.

Hashem created evil. He also bestowed upon man the ability to choose. But what choices would be available to man if He had not created evil? We would have no bechira if only good existed.

This is an esoteric concept, and I hope that you ask it to someone more qualified than me.

First of all, I advocated exactly what you say at the end. Namely, that the friend with good news should stay involved and be sensitive. She should not avoid that topic, but neither should she flaunt it. It is a difficult balance, but not too difficult, and though she might make a mistake once in a while, a well-adjusted person can deal with the occasional slip by her friend.

Now, to the point of our disagreement: If (and only if) the friend with no children cannot deal with the friend who has children (assuming that friend is sensitive as I described above), then whose problem is that, I ask you? The person with painful emotions is the only person who can repair the pain. And that doesn’t have to mean therapy. It can mean anything that helps her stay in control and not lose her friend.

chuck, the line about the kiddush was supposed to tip you off to the joke without spoiling it completely.

areivim, thanks for agreeing with me up until now. I disagree with you back. The person with the issues should be the one seeking the help, as long as the person who is the object of such feelings is not doing anything insensitive. What you said “there’s nothing they can do” is always the first line people use to avoid seeking help (I would get help, but there is no help). It could not be farther from the truth.

Of course, if they don’t want to be friends with you then back away. But if they do, then do your best to treat them properly.

ames, no one talked about their pregnancies or their child raising issues with her. She saw who was pregnant and who had children, and that was already more than she could handle. All were trying to keep the friendship where it was before the divergence, and continued to share with her the same things they had before they had kids. On the other hand, no one suddenly changed topics as soon as she walked into the room because that would make her feel like an outsider.

1994. I was commenting since you and yael aldrich both commented in the same thread. I put one and one together, and realized that I am not as good a FBI agent as I thought I was.

🙂

moish – nope. That’s not what our Chazal teach us. It is better to visit the throne room.

There is a related story with the Chofetz Chaim. A man came and bought all of his seforim, except for one – the sefer on Shmiras Halashon. The Chofetz Chaim asked him why he didn’t buy that one. The man replied that he had absolutely no chance of keeping even the smallest measure of what is in that sefer. The Chofetz Chaim replied that if he learns the entire sefer, and he is completely unaffected, but at the end of it he thinks for a second “Oy!”, it was worth it.

Another story (though I forget the Rebbe in the story, I’m sure someone later will add the name):

A certain Rebbe saw a man at the tisch eating heartily. But before every bite (or plateful, whatever) he would call out “Likovod Shabbos!”. The Rebbe thought to himself, what a faker. He’s eating Likovod der boich (stomach)! In his later years, the Rebbe had a thought of regret. He said imagine after I die, Hashem asks me if everything I ate on Shabbos was Likovod Shabbos. What will I say? No, but at least I wasn’t a FAKER like that guy! That’s not going to win any points.

Be a faker! Be a hypocrite! It’s better than being less that one!

On a more mundane note, a quote which you probably will not like is “Do, and you shall be”.

I am sure that you are sensitive in the general sense, and that you never complain in front of them about how difficult it is to be pregnant or to have to find a babysitter. I assume that such things go without saying for you. I interpret your question as how to avoid causing them hurt just by existing. You feel that you are a reminder to them of their situation, and that you cause them grief. Maybe you hesitate to visit them because you don’t want to “stick it in their face” and you only call when your baby is sleeping. That is respectful and kind, but you won’t be able to maintain a stinted relationship.

I find myself giving the same advice as in most interpersonal situations. You are not the cause. People in such a situation may feel jealous or hurt, it is natural. But it is they who must learn to deal with their emotions. They are responsible for their emotions and reactions. I doubt that they want to lose a friendship with you, and if they are smart they will do what it takes to get in control of their feelings. Your job is to not withdraw your friendship and to never complain to them about a situation they wish for. If you are doing everything right, then the rest is not up to you.

I knew someone who had no children for a number of years, and she was not able to remain friends with anyone who had children. They all felt uncomfortable around her and one by one began to have less to do with her. B”H now she has children, but I don’t know if any of the old friends returned. She should have learned to deal with her situation, and should have sought help. She suffered more because she did not. I don’t know of anyone who was insensitive (of course, sometimes people slip, but in general not). The loss of friendship was entirely her own fault. (Some people were even afraid of Eyin hara from her)

P.S. areivim: Notice that I am not saying “geit mir nicht un”. I am saying that it is the offended party who should seek help if they cannot deal with a sensitive person like SJS.

SJS, there are different ways to ask a Rov. One way is, as you said, to ask for an Eitzah. When you do that, you are not bound to follow what the Rov says. There are some people who are able to be mevatel daas to the Daas Torah and will follow the Rov’s advice to the letter without questioning. This is a high level to reach and those who live this way are not harmed by it (quite the opposite, in fact). I wish I could be that way for everything.

Your last statement is utterly bogus and shows a lack of respect for Chachomim. In the example you gave, (if I was on the level I described above) I would accept the Rov’s decision on which antibiotic. And since I have emunas Chachomim, I would KNOW that the Rov is only telling me this because he knows what he is talking about. Otherwise, he would have recommended a physician I should go to for advice.

You may or may not believe this, but I personally DO take extensive medical advice from a certain Rov. At first, I didn’t tell the doctor about this, but when I eventually did the doctor told me that he knows this Rov very well (because many others who go to him take the Rov’s advice also) and that he learned a thing or two from the Rov. I assure you that in the case of a contradiction I would blindly the Rov’s decision. Ironically, the only time I was so to speak led astray was the time when the Rov told me he didn’t know the situation well enough and I should follow the doctor’s advice.

I don’t think that the “student” was correct. Hashem did, in fact, create evil (for example, shaidim and mazikim, kochos hatumah and kishuf). Of course, the “professor’s” conclusion is even more ridiculous than the “student’s”. Evil has a purpose, as does disease and calamity.

What are you saying, mazal?

I can handle it better now that you’ve learned not to make fun of first attempts. Why, someone even helped out moish on his first.

I am. So what?

goodness gracious! I think we have Joseph, squeak and jphone all in the same room!

ames said she is married. Curious, that makes you a single (eligible) frum girl.

oomis: you are a talmid of Dovid HaMelech. “Achas shoalti…. shivti biveis Hashem… lachzos benoam Hashem, u’levaker b’heicholo”

Joseph, your link goes to a discussion about a different personality. I never heard of this “Carelbach” either but that’s no reason to pretend he doesn’t exist.