Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
I assume that “regular” jokes won’t cut it here (such as translating the above joke into one about managed health plans), so here’s an anecdote that is “Yeshiva world” appropriate:
A Rav is giving a shiur in Gemara Succah to baal habattim. The sugya is regarding what walls are kosher. The gemara says that we learn from hoitzoa on shabbos, and we say migu that the walls which work for hoitzoa will also work for succah. So someone pipes up and asks, “I thought we hold ‘migu l’hoitzee lo amrinan’?”
The Rav thinks for a minute how to best answer this. Clearly he has a soft touch because he finally replied, “Yes, ‘migu l’hoitzee lo amrinan’, but ‘migu l’hoitzee U’L’HOVEE amrinan’!
I hope I didn’t give away my identity by sharing that story!
abcd – the word for what you are describing is not normal/average. You mean to say that it is “going with the flow”, or the trend. Yes, the trend for BY girls is to go to seminary in EY, spend afternoons shopping in downtown Jerusalem, eat out every night, come home and tell your family what areas of frumkeit they need to improve in, marry a guy from Lakewood after 2-3 dates and 2 months engaged, settle in Lakewood and work as a teacher or stay home and babysit while the husband learns in BMG. It is definitely the trend. Does that make it normal? That depends on your point of view. Some will say it is normal, some will say it is not. Some would like to believe it is normal and will hope that by saying so it will become so. But it is the trend, no matter your opinion.
Does that answer your question, or were you trying to get people’s opinions on whether what is trendy is also normal?
Mayan – by any chance, would you say that they are all YU people? And does the worst case scenario (wearing a blue string that is not tcheiles) not make the tzitzis posul?
ulisis, thank you for your advice. I decided to get myself a Texas Instruments calculator for planning my budget, because you say it is magnificent. I don’t think that you have to worry about motzei shem ra on HP because no one will take this as more than your personal opinion.
tvt – nice job at cleanup. Your lomdus seems correct to me, but I think one point needs to be clairified. Every woman who is not an ervah falls into davar sheyesh lo matirin. (By ervah I am not including nidah, b/c that also has matirin.) Therefore, one should be careful about his interactions with every such woman. The problem that is specific to a Kallah is the fact that he is SUPPOSED to have a relationship with his Kallah, and he does NOT need to have a relationship with any other penuyah (and therefore SHOULD NOT). So there is clearly a fine line as to what parts of a relationship are appropriate and what are not. What should they share and what should they not. You may think that complimenting each other is something they should not share, that it crosses this line, but I don’t think it is so clear cut.
People use the term “The Polish Method” in a pejoritive manner, but it has a history to it. I found this to be very interesting. The information I am presenting comes from The Code Book, a light and interesting read for the mathematically motivated:
During World War II, the Polish were quite aware that the Germans would invade their country. The Germans would broadcast radio instructions each day in code that were orders for the army for that day. The Poles set up a team of experts to decode these radio broadcasts so that they could know what the Germans were planning. The British also had an interest in doing this, but it was the Poles who cracked the (Enigma) code first, and then shared their intelligence with the British. Perhaps it was because the threat to Poland was most imminent, and that provided the extra motivation.
Although the code breakers were working hard each day to crack the code and decipher the messages, the commander of the operation actually had a spy who was giving him the “key” to deciphering each day’s code. With this key, the code breakers could have easily deciphered the messages in a few minutes, but the commander kept the information from them so they had to work from scratch each day. The reason for this was so that they would not come to rely heavily on a source that could easily be compromised. This reasoning was justified, because the spy eventually stopped giving them the keys.
Thus, the “Polish Method” became a phrase for describing when one labors through a problem even though the answer requires no work. To me, though, the history of it is a shevach to the Poles, who were able to crack the “uncrackable” code without using any “cheat sheets”. So to JosephII and others like that, feel proud when you hear the expression, because you know where it came from!
Tada! Will Hill is a Litvak.
Look up the origin of the expression “rule of thumb”. Briefly, the law was that a man was permitted to hit his wife with a stick (except on Sundays, of course) so long as it was no thicker than his thumb. We still use this expression, though we don’t condone the practice that is its origin. As the Wolfish one says, keep the context in mind (except of course if you’re Litvish) when you are learning. And context in halacha is best defined by a Torah authority.
Wow, chaimberliner, that’s as dumb a comment as they come. An ervah is one of the 15 arayos mentioned in the Torah (plus/minus the droshos of chazal). So your mother/sister/grandmother IS an ervah to you, but a stam isha is not (hence the title “penuya”). The issur ervah by a “strange girl” is from hilchos niddah. I’m assuming that you have never learned in Chaim Berlin.
Finally – a thread that has deteriorated to something harmless (though esoteric). Kein Yirbu!
Yankees? Enough already! Once a year, July 4th, is the only time it is appropriate to use the term Yankees. We don’t call you Brits “Imperialists” anymore, do we? Besides, what is there to discuss anyway?
OK here’s one –
Q: Why did the chicken cross the road?
A: To get the Jewish Press. Get it?
No, I get the ….
oh, no.
Thanks Joseph. Luckily for me, you live in a state where your vote doesn’t matter anyway.
I’d say check with your wife, maybe she wasn’t careful about what she said (or to whom she said it) when she was upset and venting. That’s common.
specious means what you think it means, but is not a good word to describe the argument that the Chassidishe garb was worn by “chosheva” goyim before it was adopted by Jews (unless Jews were the fashion designers back then too as they are now).
The Torah actually says that Love starts after marriage. Check out Yitzchak&Rivkah
Inexperienced, but revered:
Lincoln
Reagan
JFK
LBJ
Truman(?)
Experienced but lousy:
Bush
Nixon
Carter
And of course, the inverse of each type (experienced and good, inexperienced and lousy)exists too.
The seatbelt thing is happening more and more. I don’t know where the girls get it from (B”Y or sem teaches it? Or it’s a peer thing, that their friends say not to wear one?) but it doesn’t just happen on dates. I’ve given rides to young girls (and I’m an old married man with kids of my own, though of course that doesn’t mean the relevant issues don’t exist) and had my kids ask me why our passenger (sitting in the back, not in view of my mirrors either) was not wearing a seatbelt. I wouldn’t have known that this was why except that she answered. I have other situations where it may have been more justified (relative girl sitting in the front) but I hope that the justification comes from a daas torah.
get started – in a different thread
And, explain to me what experience does for a president, based on past experience. Which President (past or present) do you consider to be experienced? In what way did this experience benefit his management of the country.
My point is, that the presidents whom we thought we the most experienced sometimes turned out to be the biggest disasters. And many of our most revered presidents were once thought of as grossly inexperienced. So I don’t see the point of your argument.
He has all the experience that the Constitution requires.
In fact, experience is a limitation (what with tenure and all). Most Presidents (and C-I-C’s) have never been one before.
LL – why assume miserable divorced? Maybe happily divorced – but it’s the kids that will be miserable. By the time sheva brochos are over, there’s usually a kid on the way so it’s rare that there are no kids to think about.
I think that we need to “socialize” the Yeshiva system. And why not? Don’t we all have the same goals? It shouldn’t matter what municipality the school is located in, because we don’t get local funds. We get Yiddishe funds, which are “national” (with a long “a”). We should take advantage of this and employ economies of scale. A few highly qualified money managers can replace all the self-appointed (and largely untrained) money managers that exist in each individual yeshiva. They can get a decent salary and believe me, they would be worth it. Yeshivaleit fail to realize that Wall Street types are worth the money they get paid.
Administration, regulatory compliance, grant writing and other common requirements that a yeshiva has can be taken care of centrally by professionals (because it’s foolish to have these specialties taken care of by anyone who does not specialize), saving huge amounts of money. Yeshivos may even find that they have money to manage and that they can get ahead of their budget. Then maybe people would start thinking about handing over large endowments to Yeshivos, as has been suggested.
And grown men weren’t wearing half-pants, stockings and robe jackets 350 years ago either. Nor were they wearing dead animals wrapped around their heads (not the tall and cheap version, nor the short and fat version). Nor were there Chassidim 400 years ago. And Litvaks are a fairly recent invention too. So stop trying to make it sound like the Chassidim have the original garb and that the Litvaks are the copycat/changelings. Each group took the dress of their locality. If it really doesn’t matter, as you say, then just let it not matter. But when you start trumping one way over the other, you’re not saying it doesn’t matter.
(sigh) You incorrectly assume that I had not heard the “his story”. I had heard it. I wouldn’t expect you to believe my version of the events, especially considering that we don’t know each other. What I am saying is that you would do well to not present urban legend as “historical fact”.
If it was truly punishable by death, and it was truly ruled to be “yehareg v’al ya’avor”, then how are there still Chassidim? They should have all been wiped out within a year of the “decree”, dressed like Jews as they were.
Interesting also, that both you and Joseph seem to be aware that the Chassidic “traditional” dress came from Polish noblemen and yet you seem to think that this is traditional Jewish garb. Never mind that not all Jews are from Poland, but our tradition dates back from before Polish nobles existed and before Jews ever showed up in Poland. So at some point, they changed their manner of dress to match the respectable dress of the day, in the LOCAL tradition, and simply didn’t change it when they got to America. The short/long jacket is a matter of style, not Halacha L’Moshe Misinai. C’mon.
Matisyohu28, actually reb chaim brisker is quoted as saying “nebach an am ha’aretz is fohrt an am ha’aretz”. A later rav is attributed with your quote, except that he said “oich” instead of “poich”. This was said regarding holocaust survivors, so please don’t make up your own interpretations.
And though we are taught that without learning you can’t have emunah, it is simply not true when applied (in retrospect) to the many pashuteh yidden of yesteryear. I’m not saying that it is still possible to be like them today (especially since the reasons they never were able to learn do not apply to us in our ‘privileged’ times) but try to keep in mind that there was a time when even good Jews were not enclosed in 4 walls for their entire life. The Lithuanian derech is only recently the prevelant one.
oomis said, “There was a time, nevertheless, that some people found his derech of kiruv to be a little “out there.” “
Oh, was there? Why the past tense? Kiruv rechokim is a great thing, and I am not someone with any bragging rights in that area, but I don’t think that “his derech” is the way to do it. Check with a knowledgeable source.
“A little bit of knowledge goes a long way.”
I would dispute your “knowledge” in this matter. Keep your bubba meises to yourself. Your last sentence would have been sufficient to state your opinion (“the issue with clothes is once again an issue with yidden followng the instructions of their own Rabbonim.”). That is hopefully the truth, but the “history” that you gave is really just “his story”. Make sure the bubble around your head doesn’t pop.
Your modern dressing patterns are likely wrong according to halacha. People would like to get you to dress appropriately but do not know how to go about it. That is why their behavior is inappropriate. They must be taught how to go about it. You can fix them, or you can fix yourself. Similarly, they can fix themselves or they can fix you. Both seem to be barking up the wrong tree.
Mayan Dvash – I only just saw your comment (so it’s “b’yom shohmoi). Besides for the obvious reason why you shouldn’t call people names, the names you chose are largely inappropriate. If I never crack a sefer in all my life, does that imply that I am an Apikores? I think not. Many fine pashuta yidden of yesteryear never owned or used a sefer, yet their emunah certainly surpasseed yours and mine. Indeed, it is possible that I am not even an Am Ha’aretz – if I would learn by listening to shiurim, rebbeim, internet discussions (you can even get halacha l’maaseh from the latter). Never mind that the only option that I spelled out was that the person should know kol hatorah kula ba’al peh.
Otherwise, I plainly disagree with what you said. The person should be allowed to use a sefer anyway. The person should be taught the proper behavior, but the correct solution would not to ban them. But thank you for your analysis; I like to appear as a deep person.
“Average”, as applied to human beings and their abilities, generally means a range. One is average if he/she is not too far from the middle in either direction. Average in this case does not mean EXACTLY in the middle.
And so, I have met many average people in my life. It is not true the statement that “everyone is special in something”. Most people are average. That is a good thing. Some people are above average. That is unusual. Some people are below average. This is also unusual.
Maybe every person has their “hour”, but I oppose the PC adage that everyone has one thing that they are the “best” at.
The ma’aleh in these Berditchever stories is that he was always able to point out the zechusim of Klal Yisroel, even when criticism seemed obvious and justified. I have heard a ton of these stories as I had a Rebbe who always foused his pre-Neilah speech on zechus K”Y.
The fact that he was able to see zechusim in everything does not mean that one should act like those characters in his stories. Obviously, davening at home beats davening on the train. They can use their time on the train to think about Hashem, just like in other m’koymos where davening/learning is inappropriate/assur (i.e. bathroom).
If you were at the White House for breakfast, lunch and dinner every day, you can be sure that you would “forget” to turn off your ringer after a while. Forgetfulness is natural (as is becoming accustomed to common occurances), acceptance is not. If someone thinks that it is not necessary to turn off the ringer, that is a problem. If someone forgets but regrets, it’s understandable.
The best way out of this is never to use a sefer.
Either
1) Know kol hatorah kula ba’al peh and always daven/bentsch without a siddur
or
2) …
If I may, I’d like to point out that the two sides of argument about the Guiness Book of World Records are one and the same. No, Guiness does not record Choni Ham’agel or Krias Yam Suf or Og Melech Haboshon, etc. That is because it has criteria for what events are recorded. Those criteria protect the integrity of the information contained in the book. Robert Wadlow (at nearly 9 feet) is the world’s tallest man ON RECORD. There is no dispute even amongst the staff of Guiness that these records may have been exceeded at some point in time but such an occurance never took place in accordance with their criteria.
When you hear on the news that today’s temperature is a “record high”, do you start calling the newscaster a “koifer” because the mai mabul were boiling hot and the temperature was likely over 200 degrees at that time? No, because you understand that the “record” is just that – a database of recorded information. Temperatures before a certain date were not recorded and are therefore not included in the record.
If an individual had been kept alive in a coma for 73 years IN RECENT HISTORY, it is very unlikely that it would not be recorded. Let me put that another way. If you want to tell a story that happened in the last hundred years or so, you’d better make sure that credible facts back it up. Of course, the story could have happened 500 years ago, but then earlier Gedolim could have remarked on it.
Since I live in a state where my vote don’t matter (being heavily Dem weighted), I vote just to show up. In this race, my vote will go to Mickey Mouse partly because of the reasons you mentioned. Both are idiots, and one will take over for an even bigger idiot. In my lifetime I can’t remember ever having a candidate that seemed good.
Oh, I wish I had something valuable to add so that I can be a part of this conversation.
Wait, I don’t need to have anything….