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Sam2 sadly you are learning wrong pshat in Rashi and I would take it very slow because you are treading in dangerous waters. Aside from some random Rishon you are pulling up, look up the classic miforshim and do some research. I hope you are not sacrificing your afterlife on this but you may be. Also, if even one person chas vshalom read your posts and came to the wrong conclusions then your toast.
Same2: “The Rambam does say that requesting something of angels is Apikorsus as it is attributing a solely Divine purpose to any being other than Hakadosh Baruch Hu.”
Where does he say that?
Requesting as a form of prayer is a prayer. If I request of an angel to grant me health, I would be asking the angel to confer that benefit on me when that benefit comes solely from God.
If I Request of you to hold the door open for me am I an apikorus since I am requesting something from a power other than God?
No, since God gave you the power to hold open doors, hence I am not praying, just asking you to do something that you are able to do. If Hashem created angels with the ability to bring prayers from people to him then how is that different than asking you to hold open a door?
(Obviously Hashem does not need them to do that anymore than he needs rain to make plants grow. This is simply what He willed.)
Sam2: You may be right that the Ravaad held that corporeality is kfira and he was speaking about believing in it by mistake.
But where does the Rambam discuss bkfira bishogeg? I have heard the idea of “nebach an apikores is oich an apikores” attributed to much more recent people. If it was stated by the Rambam, wouldn’t it be strange not to take it from him?
If you are so sure there are “rishonim” who believe this who is it and where? The Ravad does in fact make reference to great people making mistakes. Yes mistakes.
Rambam codified them in Mishnah. He codifies in other places aside from Mishnah Torah. Codify means to “Arrange (laws or rules) into a systematic code”.
Where do we say prayers to angels? Examples would help.
We sing Shalom Aleichem. However, all we are doing is blessing the angels, asking for blessings from the angels and giving them farewell. Is getting a blessing from a great person in violation of the 5th ikkar? No. Especially since the blessing is really a prayer to G-d for that person, openly stated or implied. Why is it different with angels? We are asking them to bless us, no prayers to them.
Machnesai rachamim. (Some do not say it) Those who do, once again, are not praying to angels. The Rambam does not say you can not SPEAK to them or REQUEST something. He says not to to PRAY. We ask them to bring our prayers in front of God since Hashem created a process in how prayers ascend to him (yaleh, vyavo, vyageya…). If anything it perhaps AFFIRMS the Rambam’s position.
Do you have any other cases?
Sam2 there is a disagreement between the Rambam and Ravaad if believing in corporeality makes one into a heretic. The Rambam says yes. The Ravaad says no, however even according to him that does not mean that such a person is not going to Gehenom for such a belief. Read the various commentators. The Ravaad says that there were great people who made such MISTAKES based on verses and midrashim that cause mistaken ideas when taken literally. (In other words, they are not understood correctly.)
You make is sound like there is some valid opinions about this out there. GOD FORBID. First off, the greatest philosophers, jewish and gentile, agreed that the first cause is in NO way physical. And besides, the Rambam codified the 13 cardinal beliefs (codified, not made them up) and the majority of the greatest men in all later generations accepted it as did the masses of Jews the world over. One of the beliefs is that Hashem is not corporeal. So I would advise you to be careful what you write.
Yussel:
Ok. So you THINK based on the verses he quotes that he means what you think he means. How can you state as fact that he hints to this idea? Which of those psukim are problematic asserting that Moshe said them? Even if the events did not occur yet (please explain which ones those are) have you ever heard of nevuah?
The last place you can prove anything is from Sod. Sod by definition is vague so there is a lot of purposeful grey area. It could very well be kabalistic. There are plenty of aggadita gemoras and midroshim (without even a preface that they are hinting at something) that if you would understand literally and not think into the deeper meaning you would be way off, kal vchomer where he states that it is sod.
Once your at it, the torah states visachas raglav! Under Hashem’s feet. Does that mean Hashem has feet? You would say YES. Obviously that would make you into a heretic. It is meant in a borrowed sense to describe an abstract idea. Do not jump to conclusions in deep areas. If it leads you to the wrong conclusions the consequences are very very dangerous. (Like loosing your share in the Afterlife)
Yussel:
YOU decide that the Iben Ezra holds of an idea that Moshe did not write certain verses when all you can muster is some veiled hint written in code. To use your own words, “Perhaps, if you allow yourself to examine this issue without your prejudices, you might come to a greater level of understanding”
Without prejudices please explain how you can know what he is hinting at. Since it is a hint, it is by definition not clear. Maybe he hints at some other idea? Until proven, the given is that he does NOT hold of such an outlandish belief. A hint is no proof. Is that not the unprejudiced honest way to approach this? Yes it is.
If he did hold of it, he would be the first to say it out right. He was not one to hide. Things written in code usually refer to kabalistic things which the Iben Ezra was very knowledgeable in.
I do not believe you are being honest to yourself. You want to believe in this for some reason and all you can bring as a proof is something written in sod/code. Very unimpressed. I still maintain, chas vishalom that he would hold of such a thing. Bring me a real proof!!!!
Yussel: Sam2:
Instead of accusing the Iben Ezra of saying such a thing without bringing down sources, why not quote chapter and verse so I could look it up and see if it is so? You can not make such a statement without backing it up!!
Did you have a chance to find a chumish yet?
Yusel says:
“Sod Ha Yud Bes”, the secret of the 12. The 12 is a reference to 12 Pesukim in the Torah which, according to Ibn Ezra, were not written by Moshe Rabbenu.
Not sure if I should laugh or cry. YOU decide what his enigmatic hint is referring to? How do you know that this is a reference to that? Maybe it is a secret about a totally different issue?
Besides it’s not there.
so the Iben Ezra holds that the last few psukim were not written by Moshe. If in fact he means that, there are opinions that yehoshua wrote it after Moshe died. We know that already from Tanaim
Yussel:
how dare you say that the Iben Ezra hints to kfirah! terrible thing to say.
You write “hints”. Why do you not be dan lkaf zchus that you are picking up the wrong “hint”?
And, if he does say so (chalila) why not let us know where so we can show you how you are making a huge mistake