[email protected]

@yankel-berel

lol. you continue to embarrass your church and your fake god.
if there was no zionism, there WOULDN’T HAVE BEEN an Oct 7!

Your silly logic is that despite the clear punishment (as explicit in chazal), you demand MORE ZIONISM! Just like pharaoh (maybe worse!)

Using your logic, you would say such insights like “if not for the nazi guards, can you imagine how much WORSE the germans would have treaded the Jews in Auschwitz?!!”
“Sure”, you say, “they failed to protect 6 million”, but they SAVED the other 12 MILLION!!”

Yet your avoda zureh is more precious than the lives of your own children as you keep sending your boys off to die for that fake religion you call “dati leumi”. Those boys die making the greatest chilil Hashem, making religious zionists around the world proud, R”L.

@ujm
> There’s a clear shitta (which I believe is the majority shitta) that **any** exposure to frum Yidden makes a non-frum Jew NOT a tinok shenishba. (Despite all your taainos against this shitta.)

that’s a machlokes Rambam and Nimukei Yosef (and Rebaini Tam), with the Rambam allowing exposure without necessarily losing the status of o’nes.

While the Mechaber and Ramu paskin like the Rambam, the Shach adds that the Rambam would agree with Radba”z who says that more decrepit generations (like in the time of the Radba”z) completely lose the exception of “tinok shenishbu”, regardless of exposure.

The Baal Hatanya (end hilchos ribis) brings both (Rambam and N”Y) l’haluche and says one should be machmir for both for d’orysas.

@yankel-berel
Regarding the chazon ish, I gave 4 option and NONE of them were “zuken mamre”. To quote myself above: You are forced to say either he was 1) wrong, 2) typo, 3) misunderstood, or 4) needing context.

so too your other critiques where you dishonestly lie about what I wrote. \

@yankel-berel, you are fool who doesn’t even attempt to argue in good faith, rather you try to scream loudest and flood the boards with repetitive spam.

@yaakov-yosef-a

I would be very interested in continuing this conversation by email if you want to do a deeper dive into mekoros. you can reach out to me at my gmail

@yankel-berel
maybe just read SH’A YD 157. it does not say “only 3 hamurot(sic) are yehareig ve al yaavor”

@yankel-berel

i never wrote any of those things. i’m not sure what you look to gain by be motzei shem ru on me and making up lies about what I wrote. I’m not that important for you to do such avairos over.

@anisraeliyid
zionists, especially to “religious” min, are not “fellow jews”, they are amulek, may they be peacefully uprooted from the world.

@yaakov-yosef-a

thank you for highlighting and being adamant about the correct traditional Torah definition of “Kudosh”, as a specific choice a person makes to give up one’s life instead of rebelling against Hashem. That is indeed the baseline standard.

@yaakov-yosef-a

> YYA – So now you are gores the Chazon Ish…
when did I ever push against the chazon ish?

> I was waiting for you to finally be forced to admit.
why the language of “forced to admit”, where was the initial friction?

In questions of pikiach nefesh, when there is a question of tinik shenishbu o’nes, one should presume they are o’nes and save their lives. This is exactly the language of the Rambam who says one shouldn’t be too hasty to kill them for being minim because they might do tshiva if you mekarev them. Yet none of this precludes our obligation still to hate them, not give them tzedukeh, speak badly on them, etc. in the meantime and they are still not part of klal yisroel until they chose to join us, and this is even if they are indeed tinokus shenishu.

> What about Ruchniyusdige Pekiach Neifesh?
I don’t know what that is.

@always_ask_questions
can’t prove a negative. why would any posek explain that they don’t go against the Rambam, Shulchan Aruch, Baal HaTanya, and Mishne Berira (with zero poskim on the other side except for @yaakov-yosef-a trying to read a Chazon Ish)?

@yaakov-yosef-a
As somejew you know and love, I’ll respond first to your numbered points:

1. It’s not “despite knowing little or nothing”, it’s specifically because of it. One cannot be “Achicha” b’mitzvos if they don’t know enough. (there is fascinating Torahs written about if/how an infant is achicha based on this foundational point)

2. There are various levels relevant to different halachos, such as (sorry if I miss a few, this is all ad-hoc) an idolator, ben-noach, stam non-jew, tinok shenishbu, jew who joined a”z, jew who doesn’t keep majority of the (common) mitzvos, jew who doubts any of the 13 ikkarim, jew who doesn’t keep shabbos publicly, jew who regularly does multiple aveiros, jew who regularly does a single aveirah, jew who was forced to do an aveira, jew who did an aveirah to rebel against heaven, jew who did an aveira because of a personal consideration (pleasure, money, etc), jew who did an aveira because he didn’t realize what he was doing, jew who did an aveira because he misunderstood the haluche and thought it allowed. And all these (non linear, sometimes mix and matchable) categories are applied differently to different haluches such as killing then, passively letting them die, saving their lives, saving their lives while “breaking” shabbos, self-defence, yichid, mesira, tzedukeh, dinei mamunos, ribis, loving them, hating them , lushon hureh, motzi shem ru, airiv tachumim, shchita, hischabris, yayin nesech, chezkus kashrus, n’emunis, etc.

3. There is a red line of who is part of “amecha” (am yisroel/klal yisroel), and those basic requirements are 1) keeping most common mitzvos, 2) believing without doubt the 13 ikarim, 3) keeping shabbos publicly. Like any sugya, there is much beautiful Torah iyun in each part of that “red line” (what means “public”?, what are the exact terms of the ikarim?, etc) , but the red line exists whether we can identify the minutia of its precise location or not.

The living population count of those who are in “amecha” does not change the “red-line”. It might be 10; it might be 10 million.

I don’t know who if others or anyone will be “killed in preparation for the Geulah”. It’s not anything I’ve studied, unfortunately.

4. I never said anything like this. I am active here in CR specifically to help kosher people that have been lied to.

Now on to your questions:

> Do you think you yourselves are in the top 7,000 members of Klal Yisroel or whatever your numbers are?

I hope so, but can’t be sure. Chazal say one shouldn’t consider themselves a rushe. However, I am always trying to learn more and align myself to Torah.

> Do you at least get up at חצות and cry and mourn that so many einiklach of Avrohom Yitzchok and Yaakov are so far gone, and cry and daven with copious tears that they should do Teshuva?

No.

> Or is that also Assur?
No. I daven the whole world should be full of “Daas Hashem”, and with copius tears. However, it might be assur to specifically or publicly daven for minim as it 1) imply a correction to anshei knseses hagedolah’s established tefila for their destruction, 2) goes against the Torah sources that say explicitly that they are NOT “einiklach of Avrohom Yitzchok and Yaakov” just like we don’t daven as such for their other non-Jewish eineklach (like bnei Yishmoel or Edom), 3) might be “madiach” chalila other yidden to foolishly think they are part of klal yisroel and reinforce the zionist lie that Jews are part of Am Yisroel even without Torah, thereby breaking the many halochos that dictate how kosher jews must relate to such minim.

> Or do you just not care and finished?

No, I do care. I hate the reshoyim and cry for the tinukos shenishbu like those trapped at YU and HUC and Mirkaz Hara. At might shabbos tish, like many, we encourage our kids to eat the chulent saying “yeder bundel hargit a tziyoni”.

> If you were a Hatzalah volunteer, and a non-Frum Jew was having a heart attack ר״ל, would you really and truly be מורידין ולא מעלין, or would you (at LEAST) say ספק פיקוח נפש להחמיר when you have BOTH a פלוגתא דרבוותא and a ספק במציאות? Can you NAME ANY POSEK WHATSOEVER who would Pasken to literally leave the person to die?

As the Chazon Ish says, we must judge each person individually. And, poskim have been clear that we must always be machmir on all sides when concerned for pikiach nefesh. I’m not sure what “pligsa” you are referring to.

This is all besides the fact that with a known rushe merisha, I’m pretty sure the reasons for saving their lives include “aimuh”, threats of jail as punishment (especially for emergency workers), as well as loss of future privilege by those organizations that help enable their lifesaving work.

@yaakov-yosef-a
I don’t see what your issue is (besides the ad-hominem attacks).

My whole point is that we, you and I and all kosher Jews, look to and learn from the Torah as passed down. We don’t play numbers games!

That’s all.

I’m writing a longer relevant response for your new topic https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/who-is-a-jew , which I suspect was inspired by this thread.

@yedl
I’m greater than Moshe Rebaini in number of CR comments!

@anisraeliyid please point to your intended “Halacha Pesuka” or intended “Rambam” that says we shouldn’t run away from danger or whatever you are trying to say.

@jerusalemy
I am always amazed by the stupidity of relying on government for safety regulation, when government is dismal at everything they do except taking the public’s money.

I appreciate the intent of OP @jerusalemy, but the answer is certainly not more bureaucracy.

I would suggest a private system of certification, like heksherim, that can be communally leveraged by parents very much like any consumer product.

@yaakov-yosef-a
I’ll start at the bottom of your answer and go to the top, since I think it will make my point clearer.

1)
My reason for the “negativism” (chalilah to call Torah such a thing!) in focusing on this part of the Torah is specifically because of people like yourself who validate and promote heretical anti-Torah viewpoints simply because there are a lot of foolish people who believe and/or parrot those crooked ideas. This aversion to push against apikorisus simply because of the number of claimed adherents is both obviously foolish and a stable of all types of apologetics for xtianity/reform/zionism/etc.

2)
I didn’t “mix up pshat”, I expressed the statements of poskim who have outlines the various consideration, classifications and degrees of sin, sinners, and how we are meant to relate to them. The sefer Bina V’Daas from a rav adler (? i think) shlit”a is a respected starting point for the different shitas.

3)
Beyond that, I am disheartened that you straw-manned my question as if it is “my whole hashkafah” based on a statement of which I barely claimed to be aware of its accuracy. My point in mentioning it was simply to bring out the absurdity of the aforementioned numbers game. The point is NOT to think “I’m the greatest” or even “only my group has the emes”, its simply to demand of myself to seek the emes of the Torah despite the rampant kefira and misdirection from fraudulent authorities: “common knowledge”, “gedolei yisroel”, “satmar rebbes”, “reform rebbes”, “charedim”, “all jews”, “klal yisroel”, “hamodea”, “artscroll”, “melech hamoshiach”, etc.

We Jews have an inheritance called the Torah that is accessible and available to anyone who wants it. It is the Torah that is taught by our true gedolim as per the guidelines outlined in the classic sources we all known and love.

If you are not sure who is a “true gadol” or what is a “classic source”, daven and choose a starting point, and Hashem will certainly lead you to the emes. It is only fools with agendas that say things like “well, it’s complicated” or “there are many opinions that are all valid” vis-a-vis a general Torah outlook.

The reality is that details can indeed get complicated, edge cases can have a spectrum of validity, but 99.9% of true available Torah is neither complicated nor undecided for laymen. The talmidei chachamim who are osek in Torah, the gedolim whose tshivas fill pages of complexity, are dealing with that 0.1% of ambiguity that sharpens and build true daas Torah.

4)
The “6000” is not, as I understood it in my comment, a statement of “top 6000 of klal yisroel”, rather I understood it as a statement of who is AT ALL part of klal yisroel. That is to say when moshiach comes klal yisroel will only number 6000 (or, 7000 as per your correction).

That means, as I am understanding it (again, not a centerpiece of my hashkufeh, just an exercise of integrity), the other “jews” are “jews” who are not part of klal yisroel, who do not get olam habu, who do not do tshivah when moshaich comes. These evil masses (in this theoretical) we are not allowed to love, rather we are obligated to hate. We do not pray (explicitly) for their “return”, rather we pray for their destruction.

So, my question again @yaakov-yosef-a: does this bother you? If so, why?

Now, I understand you are probably screaming ” but that’s misunderstanding the medrash of 7000!!”, which I fully admit might be true. Yet I suspect that you struggle calling the movement of “religious zionists” “reshoyim evil worse than nazis” despite that they are teaching a fake “torah” like the notzrim teach their fake “torah”. I suspect you have problem hating their priest leaders because of “kavod ha(fake)torah”, even though you know Kook sh”y had no valid sources for his teachings and knowingly tricked the masses to rebel against the Torah. All this only because of a numbers game trap you have fallen for.

Jewish blood flows like rivers because of the zionists, their wars, and the Divine punishment they arouse upon sonei yisroel. Worse, the kefira continue to spread worse than reform, and simple people start believing that our gulis is because of lack of an army or our rescue by means of one, chalila. Beyond that people start believing that Judaism is an ethno-religion or just “the best life”. It’s not “just” that, rather Judaism begins and ends with us being am hanivchar that is fully submitted to Hashem and His Torah. And when the aforementioned red lines are clear, there will be much less confusion for those who want to be part of klal yisroel despite the zeitgeist.

@yaakov-yosef-a
toy wrote regarding kefira: “You have to know something in order to deny it”

I’m surprised to see this level of dishonesty and am-harutzus from you. Please post a makor for such an idea, as I don’t believe it exists. Regardless (and this is the amharutzus), even if (according to your nonsense) it’s not in the geder of kefira, such a person would simply be an apikorus, or min, or just a plain old mimar.

All of these words have their own specific definitions, and collectivley they firmly reject any person who does not maintain a baseline yiddishkeit. There is simply zero place in klal yisroel for anyone who is not on board, including the greatest of talmidei chachomim and influential gedolim who can become a “zuken mamre” if they ever chalila cross that line.

Additionally, all these dinim are specifically ways that WE must judge OTHERS, and they are guidelines based specifically on what WE can see, not what goes on in their hearts. So, even if you would claim the above theory about an ignoramus and kefira, it wouldn’t change how WE must relate to such a rushe (it would only be relevant in beis din shel maaleh).

@yaakov-yosef-a

I “heard” in the name of Satmar Rebbe zy”a that there are only [or will only be (when moshiach comes)] 6000 erleche yidden in the world [or in eretz yisroel].

Now without debating the accuracy of such a statement, nor debating the value of such a statement even if indeed having been taught by the Satmar Rebbe. My question for you, @yaakov-yosef-a, is simply if you would be bothered by that fact?

Would you be surprised? worried? Claim it impossible?

I, personally, have no issue with that consideration as most of the upstanding normal Jews of all colors I know are full of heresy from top to bottom.

I beg you to please, if you respond to my question, explain if this aligns with your view on the masses of secular reshoyim that claim the title “jewish” while claiming they don’t keep shabbos.

Unfortunately it seems that many people would rather ignore what the Torah teaches it really means to be part of klal yisroel, what the real acceptance criteria are for Olam Habu (which may be as strict as rejection from even one intentional sin l’teyuvon without doing real tshiva), and instead they would rather feel better relying on questionable if not heretical Torah claims or relying on questionable if not heretical “rabbunim”, all to avoid personally doing tshiva.

@qwerty613
I criticized the bad things common in MO today. You responded that there are other jews who do bad things. And you said that I should be careful about calling out such bad things.

to quote exactly what you wrote:

And there are Chassidim who casually … so let’s be careful about attacking other groups of Jews.
</bockquote>
I don’t understand why the failings of any other Jews should demand I “be careful”. Careful of what? Also calling out their bad behavior?

[BTW, I disagree with your public tochacha of “chassidim” as you wrote it, which is why i replaced the motei shem ru with ellipsis. Those unnamed “chassidim” could be anyone, and you are painting the whole general population of “chassidim” with that brush. This could be valid criticism if the bad behavior was something endorsed widely by ANY of the many formal groups that claim the title “Chassidim”, but they certainly do not. Not only that, the sins you mentioned are not only NOT endorsed by any chassidic groups, they are already clearly and adamantly recognized as bad behavior and officially rejected by all those groups and sub-groups as well as all their theological leaders. Contrast this to the many groups and leaders that claim themselves MO who support and endorse the aforementioned sins and whose students practice that heresy in their names. ]

@always_ask_questions

my first thoughts are simply read the Rambam himself, which is the original source of the chidish that there could be any type of mumar that is considered a “tinik shenishbu”, where he ends with “don’t kill them quickly”. [before this chidish, the phrase meant a baby actually captured by non-jews].

The Rambam also defines the terms “apikorus”, “min”, “mimar” explicitly in Yad, brings multiple haluchos in other parts of Yad thet leerage those definitions, such as ribis and rotzeach, etc. He also write at length about kefira in mishnayos perek Kol.

At no point does he mention that there is some sort of excpetion for tinok shenishbu as mutually exclusive (as mentioned, of course there are tinukos shenishbu that are NOT mumarim). Nor does the Rambam provide any rational that would support such a binary.

However, in an effort to find your question addressed more directly, I offer the statements of the Brisker Rav who said “Nebach an apikorus is still and apikorus”. Even more direct, it the mamar on eminah from Rav Elchonon Wasserman’s kovetz maamarim (I think the very first mamar in the current common print). But, I don’t have it in front of me to quote exactly.

Yet to really get to the bottom of the question, a question really about todays non-jewish jewish, I would offer a look at modern day poskim and how they handle quesitons about their status l’halucheh.

Here is from shevet halevi, chelek 1, siman 20. He does not entertain any such consdieration that a common michalel shabbos today is not a imar

Here is the transcription and translation, automated (so please check for mistakes).

====================================
סימן כ

כבוד ידידנו המפואר ומופלג בתורה ויראה
טהורה הרב ר’ צבי ליבוביץ שליט”א,
שו”ב כפר חיים.

אחדשכ”ט וש”ת.
שאלת חכם חצי תשובה לנכון קבלתי והאותיות
מחכימות היות כי במקומו אנשים איזה [אולי: אלו]
מהמתפללים הם מחללי שבת ואוכלי נו”ט ר”ל, וזהו
לעשות ביום חג הפסח הבעל”ט וכי’ צריך לברר
בנ”ד אם להתפלל ביחידות כיון דתפלה בציבור רק
דרבנן, וגם חברת האנשים האלה מבטלים
משמחת יו”ט וגורמים בלבול תפלה, וכבר כל יקר
ראתה עינו תשובת רבותינו האחרונים ובפרט דברי
הרדב”ז ח”ד סי’ אלף קפ”ז (תקפז) ודברי מהר”ם שיק או”ח
סי’ ע”א, ומיוסד על יסוד דברי הפרי מגדים סימן
נ”ה דמותר להכעיס או לחלל שבתות אסור לצרף,
ועיין עוד סימן קכ”ח ומ”ב ס”ק קנ”ד, והין לו
להאריך בפשוט, דאסור להתפלל בקהל כזה כיון
דבעו”ה אינם בגדר בני ישראל בדיני מצות וצירוף
מנין.
ואם אמנם הגאון בנין ציון ח”ב סי’ כ”ג רצה
להקל במחללי שבת דזמנינו כיון דהולכים
לבית הכנסת ומתפללים וגם מקדשים קדוש היום,
דלא טעם מחלל שבת כגוי מפני שכופר
בבריאה וסבורא הא מודה ע”י קידוש ותפלה יע”ש,
ויותר מה מצאתי בתשו’ רבנו הרמ”ע בסוף אגרת
השמד שכתב וז”ל: וג”כ אינו ראוי להרחיק מחללי
שבתות ולמאוס אותם אלא לקרבם ומרחם לעשות
המצוות וכבר פי’ רבותינו ז”ל שהפושע אם פשע
ברצונו כשיבוא לבית הכנסת להתפלל מקבלים אותו
ואין נוהגין בו מנהג ביזיון וסמכו על זה מדברי
שלמה ע”ה לא יבוזו לגנב כי יגנוב למלא נפשו כי
ירעב, אל יבוזו לפושעי ישראל שהם בחי’ נסתר
לגנוב מצוות, ע”כ. ואמנם כ”ז אינו מעלה ארוכה
למכה דידן במקום שרוב הקהל הם פורקים ומחללי
שבת, פשיטא דאסור להיות בחברתם כיון דלהם

התלי’ בכל הענינים וגם איכא חשש דימשך
אחריהם ובפרט הבנים הקטנים הרכים לפניהם
קהל כזה. וגם דברי הבנין ציון הנ”ל נראים חדשים
ביותר ואיכה מקום לצרפם לענין נגיעת יין של
מחללי שבת בזמן הזה, אבל חלילה להיות אחד עם
קהל כזה. וכן מדברי הרמב”ם אינו ראיה דשם
מדובר ג”כ בנידון שיראי ה’ ידם על העליונה והם
רוצים לקרב גם אלו שבעוונותיהם פירשו מעדת ה’.
אבל לא כן המצב עכשיו בעו”ה שרבו הפורצים
ויראי ה’ אינם מתקבלים עליהם, לכן טוב שיפרוש
מהם ומהמונם. עיי’ ח”ס סי’ קס”ה-ח

ואמנם גם זה לא ניחא לי לקודש”ה שיסגר עצמו
ובניו בחג הק’ הבעל”ט להתפלל ביחידות
והנה הקטן לא יראה מעשי ה’ ולא ישמעו תפלה
בצבור ולא קריאת התורה ולא כל מנהגים הקדושים
והמתוקים שנהגו מימות עולם, ע”כ יקיים דברי
הרמב”ם ויהפך לו מקום אחר, כמש”כ פ”ו מהלכות
דעות דצריך לצאת אפילו למדינה אחרת ואז טוב לו
בגוף ובנפש.

English Translation

Siman Chaf (20)

To the honor of our glorious friend, distinguished in Torah and pure fear of Heaven, the Rav, R’ Tzvi Leibowitz Shlita [May he live for good long days, Amen],
Shochet u’Bodek of Kfar Chais.

I extend greetings of life and peace.
“The question of a wise man is half the answer” – I have received [your letter] duly, and the letters are enlightening. Since in his place there are certain individuals among the congregants who are Mechallelei Shabbos and eaters of Neveilos u’Treifos R”L, and this concerns what to do on the upcoming holiday of Pesach HaBa Aleinu L’Tova. And thus, it is necessary to clarify in Nidon Didan [our case at hand] whether to pray B’yechidus [privately], since Tefilah B’Tzibbur is only D’Rabbanan, and also the company of these people cancels the Simchas Yom Tov and causes Bilbul Tefilah.

And indeed, every precious eye has already seen the responsa of our Later Rabbis (Acharonim), specifically the words of the Radvaz, Part 4, Siman 1187 (587), and the words of Maharam Schick, Orach Chaim, Siman 71. This is founded upon the principle of the Pri Megadim, Siman 55, that one who transgresses casually (l’hach’is) or desecrates Shabbosos is forbidden to be included [in a Minyan]. See also Siman 128 and the Mishnah Berurah subsection 154. There is no need to elaborate on the obvious, that it is forbidden to pray in such a congregation, since Ba’avonosaynu HaRabbim they are not within the category of Bnei Yisrael regarding the laws of Mitzvos and inclusion in a Minyan.

And even though the Gaon, author of Binyan Tzion, Part 2, Siman 23, wished to be lenient regarding the Mechallelei Shabbos of our times—since they go to the Beis HaKnesses and pray and also recite Kiddush on the Holy Day, for the reason a Mechallel Shabbos is like a gentile is because he denies Creation, whereas this one admits to it through Kiddush and Tefilah, see there—and further what I found in the Responsa of our master, the Rama [Rabbi Menachem Azariah of Fano] at the end of Iggeret HaShmad, who wrote as follows: “And also it is not fitting to distance Mechallelei Shabbosos and to loathe them, but rather to draw them close and have mercy to perform the Mitzvos. And our Rabbis of blessed memory have already explained that a transgressor, if he transgressed willfully, when he comes to the Beis HaKnesses to pray, we accept him and do not treat him with contempt. They relied in this on the words of Shlomo A”H: ‘Men do not despise a thief, if he steals to satisfy his soul when he is hungry’ (Proverbs 6:30); do not despise the transgressors of Israel, for they are in the aspect of a hidden one stealing Mitzvos,” until here.

However, all this is not a healing remedy for our wound in a place where the majority of the congregation are those who cast off the yoke [of Heaven] and are Mechallelei Shabbos. It is obvious that it is forbidden to be in their company, since to them belongs the influence/dependence in all matters, and there is also a concern that he will be drawn after them, specifically the small, tender sons [who are] before such a congregation. Furthermore, the words of the aforementioned Binyan Tzion seem very novel (Chidushim), and how is there room to combine them [rely on them] regarding the matter of Negias Yayin of Mechallelei Shabbos in this time? But Chalila to be ‘one’ with such a congregation.

So too, from the words of the Rambam there is no proof, for there it speaks also in a case where the God-fearing have the upper hand, and they wish to draw close those who, through their sins, have separated from the congregation of Hashem. But such is not the situation now, Ba’avonosaynu HaRabbim, where the lawless (Portzim) have multiplied and the God-fearing are not accepted by them; therefore, it is good that he separate from them and their multitudes. See Chatam Sofer, Siman 165-168.

However, this too is not pleasing to me for the sake of the Kidsha Brich Hi, that he should shut himself and his sons away on the upcoming Holy Holiday to pray B’yechidus. And behold, the little one [child] will not see the works of Hashem, and they will not hear prayer B’Tzibbur, nor Krias HaTorah, nor all the holy and sweet customs that have been practiced since days of old. Therefore, he should fulfill the words of the Rambam and find himself another place, as he wrote in Chapter 6 of Hilchos De’ot, that one must leave even to another country, and then it will be good for him in body and soul.

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@yankel-berel
you said “I was reading somejew’s previous post claiming that a mumar does not get rewarded…”
please point to the specific comment (every comment has a unique ID number in the top right you can use as reference) in question and please explain what you think is wrong about it. I will either clarify or admit my mistake, iy”H

@yankel-berel
yes. “schar v’onesh” is one of the 13 ikarim. i’m not sure what alternative you were considering.

@yankel-berel
the mishna in sanhedren, “kol yisroel yesh l’hem olam ha bu” list many of those who lose olam habu (which is the main reward). The Rambam’s peirish on that mishna is where he list what became known as the “13 ikarim” and the rambam writes how a person doubitng them loses their olam habu.

However, if these reshoyim did any mitzveh, they would still get rewarded in olam hazeh (as per the rule of schar v’onesh, one of the 13 ikarim). This perhaps makes an easy context to understand the many statements in chazal and late poskim about the damage done when a mumar does a mitzvah that it feeds and strengthens, cha v’shulem, the sitra achra.

(this is regarding actual mitzvos, not the disgrace of profaning mitzvos that some do by putting teffilin on those who don’t believe in Hashem or Torah, turning yiddishkeit into a secular ethnic culture of “jew-ish”. there is no “mitzvah” if one does not believe they were commanded. that being said, we jews (not you @yankel-berel, as you’ve already defended and endorsed other religious) are not in the business of telling anyone – mumar or not – to stop doing any mitzvos, because we cannot know what is in a person heart. so we must be machmir on both sides despite the chazuke that they are kofer)

@chiefshmerel

I can’t speak for @flamingOTD specifically, but the claim that ANYONE is Jewish is specifically a religious claim of the Jewish religion, a claim specifically that such a person is obligated to keep the Torah. This obligation cannot be canceled and its reward and punishment will be delivered according to however much the Jew is on-the-derech, keeping the Torah.

I agree that a person who stupidly claims the Torah is NOT a real covenant with The Creator – reform, secular, religion zionist, or whatever – can not call himself Jewish with any integrity because those words indeed mean he believes he is bound by the Divine Torah. However, he may still indeed be Jewish (obligated) despite not being part of klal yisroel (rewarded).

@qwerty613

really “There are no questions about Chabad’s Mitzvah performance. That’s impeccable.”???

How many Gedolim, litvish and chassidish, cried rivers because of their brazen tefillin campaigns that have caused so much destruction? How much has been written about the fallacy of “kiriv”, encouraging mimarim to defile holy mitzvos by doing the “lo lishma” with no intent to do them lishma? how many balei tshiva have been led astray with faux-Chabad’s faux teachings of “ahavas hareshoyim” and “Hashem understands” if you can’t do mitzvos, and they are “just good things to do” anyway, chas v’shulem!

really? no questions?