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As usual you didn’t even read what I wrote:
“May all those who promote such gezera ruos meet a swift and peaceful eradication as per the blessing of “v’al malshinin””That is my “three times a day” tefila for both hamas and zionist soldiers.
@shimon-katz
I’m at a loss of words. Who is calling for a political “sudden change of status quo”? The handful of long form interviews I’ve listen to from NK leaders are clear that they are not pushing any political agenda, no practical action, rather their activism is purely theological in nature.And you are correct, taking charge politically of the situation is precisely one of the many sins of the zionist evil movement. No one is picking up a gun to stop the IDF in the name Torah.
It baffles me that this is not obvious if you have ever read anything from NK or anyone else from the Torah world. From top to bottom Torah’s anti-zionism like it anti-catholicism is about saving Jewish lives.
I suppose anyone reading could just look up the sources and see. It is not hard to find the many gedolim who published and continue to publish seforim about the heresy of zionism and the death they have brought upon us. It is not hard to find the many mareh mekomos that accompany and are the centerpieces of these seforim.
Unfortunately you live in a fantasy world of made up “shulchan aruchs” and “mishne torahs”, Rachmuneh Latzlun. Your lies quickly unravel if you bother to learn and do tshivah.
What you will not find is a any Gadol challenging those mekoros and the unified mesorah we have on them.
The best the zionist church has to offer is Menachem Kasher yimach shemo who was know for his rampant forgeries. And Shlomo Aviner who somehow argues with Vayoel Moshe without mentioning the answers explicitly to his “kashos” written in Vayoel Moshe itself. It all reads the same as their “Jews for J” counterparts. No integrity. No yiras shomayim. Only a thirst for jewish violence and death.
@yaakov-yosef-a
I’ve never claimed any identity other than being (well, trying to be) an erliche yid.@shimon-katz
I’m not claiming there is a heter or an issir to enter the Meraz Harav church as I am not a posek.While all major poskim who dealt with the question agree that “Religious Zionism” is heresy (and more so the Kook-Shmook variety) , they do not all agree that it has the status of Idolatry. This is why you find some poskim that allow taking money from the state.
@always_ask_questions
As mentioned in my last comment in this thread, I also daven for the soldiers, both zionist and hamas soldiers, three times a day.@shimon-katz
I’ve never heard anyone come to the conclusion vis-a-vis the shevios that Yidden must now leave Eretz Yisroel.The closest I’ve heard is the Satmar Rebbe ztz”l would tell people generally not to go because there are sha’ailos every day of ‘yharog v’al taavor’ as one is forced to navigate under the boot of zionism. For example, one might be forced with the complexity of needing to chalila call the police or pay a parking ticket, and each time there are new questions in what the proper way to respond with the issues being severe on both sides of the shikel daas.
But, he doesn’t say they must leave.
So, if you are trying to present a position that kosher yidden must now leave Eretz Yisroel al pi the Torah, you would need to build out that claim with sources.
@shimon-katz
of course I’ve been to Mirkaz Harav, and the shooting there was one of the must heart wrenching things I have ever experienced in my life. I know a number of people that continue to learn Torah in that church of heresy every day.The only solace I had and continue to have are the words of Rabi Akiva that just like we see the words of chazal were kept- in this case the gemureh that says our flesh will become hefker R”L – so too will we will merit to see this evil state collapse one day and Moshiach will return the crown to Hashem.
Also, the most disgusting thing you wrote is that ANYONE would act surprised as either Satmar Rebbe crying over such a tragedy. His cries – as a Yid – are the cries of tishab’uv. The zionist cries are the cries of chait huegel.
I am perplexed by your phrasing of “Even if the Zionists violated the גזרה of גלות…”. Who in the Torah world claims that they NEVER did that. Sure, there is much pilpul about exactly how they broke -for example – the shulosh shevios, such as was it the mass aliyah or the wars to be over on the oath of “yali kachomah”. But, the kofrim made it easy for Torah Jews by literally breaking every single shita of every single shevia.
Beyond the shulosh shevios, the same can be said about every aspect of gzairas hagulis. What’s the phrase, “when someone says who they are, believe them” or something like that?
Moving forward, I don’t know what you might mean by “turn back the clock”. You must have something in mind, but it’s not clear from your words what you are talking about.
The “yishiv”has existed in (Greater) Eretz Yisroel since Moshe Rebaini, long before the zionists. There have also been many governments, some good and some bad. Judaism rejects the false claim that this government is “Jewish” and that the sins it does somehow serves the (real) Jewish Nation. There speculate that a state that keeps all of Torah could indeed claim to be “Jewish” before moshiach, but – despite the foolish absurdity – that has nothing to do with the zionist creature called (maliciously) the “State of Israel”.
The reality is that purpose of gulis is specifically so that we Jews will rely on and depend on Hashem for our salvation. Just like we don’t put ourselves in dangerous situations we don’t do sins (like going against the shulosh shevios) for some calculated fools “good”. Just like its not worth chsv”sh losing one Jewish life to keep the Jewish communities remain in Eretz Yisroel, it is also not worth doing avairos to keep the Jewish community to remain in EY.
Thankfully, we do have G-d to rely on and thankfully the nisoyan He has given us is NOT choosing between breaking the gezeiras hagulis or giving up our lives (which is the explicit stance of the Maharal, amongst others). Instead, we are only beseeched to reject the heresy of Zionism while living in EY or getting on a plane to move somewhere else.
i’ve never gone against any gedolim nor claimed that I understand more. I challenge you to find anything of Torah substance that I have said in CR that I can’t back up with statements from Gedolim.
And I don’t meant this that I will nitick some distortion. I mean to say that my stance (as well as Hakatan it would seem) is fully aligned with mainstream Torah taught by Gedolim.
For example, take the evil masis imadiach Kook yimach shemo. There are a number of gedolim who have taught that he is a rushe gumir and yimach shemo. But, there are zero charedi gedolim who have taught that he is not a rushe.
You can rightfully claim that MOST gedolim don’t talk about him, and it is true that I am following those gedolim who taught that we must be vocal and uproot that heresy from klal yisroel. But, don’t accuse me baselessly of “knowing better than the overwhelming majority of gdolei yisrael(sic)”.
you are correct. they all (naziis neonazis and zionists) lied that “all Jews are Zionists”.
Zoinists love that part of naziism, that and the beard cutting and tefillin burning. Some at the Mirkaz Harav Church don’t realize the endgame of their leaders.
if these signatures are true: couldn’t have happened to more deserving reshoyim. thank you for showing the world more proof that “yesh din v’yesh Dayan”. As the Rambam says, “drink and feast to celebrate the death of such evildoers”
May all those who promote such gezera ruos meet a swift and peaceful eradication as per the blessing of “v’al malshinin”
@yaakov-yosef-a
it sounds like your concern is that the stated goal is impractical. But my question explicitly side-stepped that issue.Again, giving its proponents the benefit of the doubt that there is a practical path to that goal, what issue do you have with the “One State Solution” as a replacement for today’s government?
@rightjew
what’s your question about zionists and Jerusalem. of course Jerusalem does not belong to the zionists. it currently doesn’t belong to the jews either, as we are in gulis. but either way, it certainly doesn’t belong to the zionists!@yaakov-yosef-a
as a Yid, what issue do you have with the “One State Solution” as a replacement for today’s government? (giving its proponents the benefit of the doubt that there is a practical path to that goal). Isn’t the “extreme leftist post-zionism” just the same as every other fully secular western government?@yedl
No. Not at all. The word “Chassidus” can mean a lot of different things. I was speaking specifically about the teachings of the Baal Shem Tov. Those teaching were no “introduced” they were always part of Torah from Sinai. The Baal Shem Tov was a tzaddik, that is to say he was an almost perfect receptacle of Torah and an almost perfect teacher of Torah. He awoke and explained parts of Torah that were otherwise out of reach from common Jews. He dramatically sped up the hishtashlis of Torah from above to below and certainly did and/or enabled the uplifting of many sparks as the light of Torah was now reaching even lower levels than before.This is just like the Chofetz Chaim didn’t “introduce” hilchos lushen hureh. Or the Satmar Rebbe didn’t “introduce” the gezeiros hagulis. They simply taught the same Torah that was given to us and passed down to us generation after generation from Sinai. Their “novelty” was just in arousing and emphasising the overlooked and less accessible parts of Torah.
As I said before, this is why every kosher Jew is student of the Baal Shem Tov because being a student of his just means being a student to the Torah m’Sinai that he clarified and made accessible.
@mdd1
I don’t understand your questionHuh? is there no issur of hichabris lreshoyim in pasikim, chazal, and poskim? Are there not numerous takunehs chazal such as yayin nesech and yichid that are with the specific explicit intent to keep us away from socializing with non-jews?
I don’t know if playing with “other” children will make someone OTD, but choosing to do so itself is OTD.
That being said, there are coutering values in psak that might allow – at least as a limid schis – for shelichim to live alone in sedom, but that conversation certainly does NOT start with the lie that “There’s no rule” otherwise.
@yedl, you asked:
<blocktext>which parts of “Moshe Rebaini”s Torah do you feel like you would not have in your life without the Ba’al Shem Tov?</blocktext>I don’t know since I never lived without the “Toras Baal Shem”. Also, I find it strange to frame the question on “how I feel” about the Torah that was restored to us. That’s like asking me how many of my relatives “do I feel” survived the Holocaust. Huh?
The reality is that there is almost no such thing as a frim Jew who is NOT a student of the Baal Shem Tov today. To not be a chussid today is specifically a statement of rejection of that part of Torah, and as such probably kefira if such a stance even exists anywhere.
If your question is about modern day “chassidim” and “chassidis”, I would say that this is a very different question with a very different answer and has as much to do with being students of the Baal Shem Tov as much as being students of the Holy Ari z”l or students of the Chozeh of Liblin zy”a.
the holy Baal Shem Tov didn’t do anything novel, chas v’shulem, rather he restored parts of avodas Hashem to klal yisroel.
being a student of the Baal Shem Tov just being a student of Moshe Rebaini.I have not seen @HaKatan nor have I said anything in CR that is not fully and explicitly supported unanimously by gedolei yisroel in their own published mainstream writings.
I’ve noticed a common pattern here in CR, one side (the Torah side) is regularly quoting mainstream seforim with specific references. The other side at best quotes artscroll third hand fluff stories while dismissing any serious torah point.
There are numerous many books from all Torah camps expressing the disgrace of the false religion called “Zionism”, from Agudas Yisroel to Sefardi Gedolim, to Litvish, Yekish, Chassidish, Hungarian, etc. They all express the same refrain.
However there are ZERO books in the Torah world that defend that false religion, rather only non-Jewish sources are ever mentioned like Kook and the “University” part of YU-JB.
Nonetheless, the blind around here continue to pretend that the Gedolim of yesterday aren’t talking about today and the Gedolim of today are misled. The zionist fools in CR believe that every Gadol is really a zionist, but they never published, and everything they published against zionism is somehow not accurate or misunderstood.
For anyone that want to learn Torah m’sinai, there is no ambiguity. We Jews do not follow any false moshiach, not Yashke, not Sha”tz, not Kook, not Bibi ymach shemum v’zichrum.
@non-political
you’ll find more palestinian flags in those EY neighborhoods than zionist flags.The Satmar Rebbe pushed his students in America to loudly protest, claiming the American Jews are the ones whose voice matters vis-a-vis public influence, which would certainly seem to have been an influence on NK leaders like Rav Beck ztz”l who was a talmid of BOTH Rav Blau tzt”l and the Satmar Rebbe ztz”l.
Beyond that, there are not pro-palestinian protests in the Zionist state that Jewish residents could join even if they wanted to.
Regardless, nobody – NK or otherwise – is supporting murdering of Jews when they join the protests against the zionist state. If NK wanted Jews dead, they would tell them to join the IDF death cult.
@yankel-berel
NK, as much as I have ever seen them regularly exclaim, never support any violence from any side. They explicitly claim not to support the palestinian resistance as well as the zionist resistance. They DO claim that their agenda is specifically to decrease violence towards “our brothers”, members of Klal Yisroel.
@zsk
I have been staying directly on topic, you don’t know where I live, and the Torah is true regardless of my failings. So, I’m not sure my you post empty criticisms. Is that what kureis feels like, rushe?@square_root
you are quoting the exact spot in the Chazon Ish, can you not just get it yourself?Regardless, yes – of course – the zionist quoted is a liar. As I mentioned before, they don’t care about Torah, they only care about keeping the river of Jewish blood flowing as a means to stay in political power.
The Chazon Ish is speaking about the halacho of eruvin and a machane (encampment of soldiers) during a milchemes mitzvah (he specifies: as established by real prophets and the great sanhedrin) / milchemes rishis (a war initiated by King David to expand the kingdom’s borders).
There he says that in the case of milchemes mitzvah it is by definition pikiach nefesh – so no halacha of exemption. And if a rishis, exemptions apply unless the military operation turns deadly in which case if the except soldiers are needed it becomes regular pikiach nefesh like a milchemes mitzvah and no more exception.
At no point does the Chazon Ish even hint to anything relevant to modern times and the current shmad of the cantonist or zionists or notzrim or whatever new name Amulek has chosen to sugar coat it’s love for violence and jewish blood. At no point does the Chazon Ish mention the sugya of Shevet Levi nor the today’s yeshiva students.
Again, the author is a Zionist, so it’s easy to know and presume he is a liar, like his teachers, like Kook. Stay away from such crooked “Torah” and such priests.
In any case, if one would attempt to apply this section of the Chazon Ish to today’s situation, it would be hard to know on which side one would be obligated to fight. Are we supposed to pick up arms to fight the murderous zionist army who are actively targeting the minority of Klal Yisroel in their midsts? Or are we supposed to pick up arms and fight the downtrodden murderous arab groups who are not always mavchin bein tzadik l’rushe?
Certainly, those who really DO care what the Chazon Ish taught already know that we Jews don’t turn to weapons or violence, rather we turn to Hashem for His salvation and protection, and we take to the streets and protest any attack on our Torah or our Father in Heaven.
We Jews have the choice to actively reject the violent state called “Israel”, condemn those evil people who support that state, and work to teach those Jews who have been misled that the path of Torah is not the path of Zionism or any other false moshiach.
@yaakov-yosef-a
It’s a shame you are so ready to speak such luchon hureh on NK without having ever spoken to anyone from NK to hear their side.
Look past the propaganda and rumors and you will see a group of frim yidden who don’t do aveiras in public. That’s the baseline of demanding you hear their side before falling for the slander of YY Jacobson.@yankel-berel
“but I have not found that he directly addresses the issue of the gaping hole in all halachik codifiers which avne nezer clearly raises .”lol. you must be either joking or have zero integrity. Satmar Rebbe actually wrote a whole book about this question called “Vayoel Moshe” and that includes a specific “mamar shalosh shevios” where he ask and strengthens this question from multiple angles, He specifically brings the avnei nezer’s statement that the shevios are “not l’haluche” and the Satmar Rebbe double down and emphasis the point the Avnei Nezer is making. The Satmar Rebbes kasha on Avnei Nezer was NOT about the clear point of “lo l’haluche”, rather his kasha on the Avnei Nezer was in how he understood Rashi (a kasha he is metaretz to matzdik the Avnei Nezer).
This isn’t even hard to find, as Vayoel Moshe has long been printed with an index of sources. “Avnei” starts with an “Aleph”.
So, @yankel-berel, are you indeed joking or do you simply have no integrity?
BUT zionists aren’t WORRIED about kurais or mass death. They think it is honorable for jewish boys to die en masse for their political state. Thats how they worship their god. That’s what their dati leumi priests teach them.
@yaakov-yosef-a
no games. i never heard anything but Torah from the couple of interviews I’ve listened to with NK. So too their website.
Again, I’m not ignoring their controversial tactics, which many rabunim have explicitly called out, rather I am focusing on the Torah message that NK is delivering, which seems to be fully in line with mainstream Torah Judaism.If one is critical of their tactic, understood. But if someone is leveraging the NK tactics to criticise Torah Judaism, that is getting close to masis imadiach.
@yaakov-yosef-a
I’m not clear what the distinction you are making is between pushing someone away from Torah and pushing someone towards another religion. they seem to be two ways of phrasing the same thing.
Nothing I am saying has anything to do with NK per se, rather I am only speaking about Torah that the masis would himself agree is Torah. (The conversation about a shogeg mesis is well beyond CR…).
To say it again: if the INTENT of criticising NK is NOT because of their questionable tactics but rather leveraging their questionable tactics to get Jews to reject normative Torah and/or adopt the false moshiach of Zionism, that would be the “masis i’madiach” I was calling into question.1. Halachik: I wasn’t making a “halachik” statement, as I am not instigating anyone go out and kill mu”m. So, too you rarely find ANY psak about this in our gulis because we generally don’t paskin dinei nefushos.
2. Logic: My accusation is dependent on INTENT of the criticism.
If the goal of attacking Nazis yimach shemum is to drive people away from Torah teachings, that would be mu”m. So too if someone is critical of NK because they want jews to reject the Torah NK is teaching and/or push them towards the false religion called “Zionism”, that would also be mu”m.@non-political
I’m not sure what your cryptic criticism is about my use of the terms “masis” and “madiach”. Please explain what I got wrong.@ujjm
i like the thread’s title@mdd1
what’s your approach? what does it accomplish better?My goal here is not to attract anyone to Torah, rather to ust to make the truths in Torah available to those who want it.
The Torah is beautiful without me having to sugar coat it….@always_ask_questions
the kosher Jews lives here like we’ve always lived here, to be in Eretz Yisroel, to be near our families and other people we love.
The zionists came and forced their rule over the population of Palestine. now, you want us to leave because we don’t want your government?it’s not even debatable. the distance – by talmidei chachumim – between the “charedim” of the chazon ish ztzt”l and the “kanoyim” of rav amram bloy ztzt”l is exceptionally minor.
This carries on today, as the students of Rav Chaim ztz”l’s biggest complaint towards todays kanoyim like neturie karta is that they are lost parliament votes (of those who live in within zionist borders).
@always_ask_questions
what a silly statement! WE don’t want the IDF to “take us seriously”, we want them to go away and leave us alone! THEY – the zionists – happen to also be dishonest in their evil targeting of jews to their false religion. Like a Notzri missionary, the IDF doesn’t take our Judaism seriously. The answer isn’t, well maybe we should take THEM seriously!I personally know a goy who joined his Church and came out a Ger Tzedek in a black yarmulke. Etc.
rav yosef chaim zonenfeld ztz”l founded the Eida Charedis, who was the first Gaved. After his passing, the Eida begged the Satmar Rebbe ztz”l to become the second Gaved, but he declined (He ultimately conceded after the war and lead the Jerusalem community until his passing in the 70s).
The eida was and continues to be very much a unified beis din for the ashkenazy kehila, both litvish chasidish and otherwise, but its roots are (also) very Hungarian. So, I’m not sure where you got your history from.
I wasn’t referring to NK’s specific tactics, rather their message that is fully in line with mainstream Torah’s rejection of zionism and its kefira.
I never claimed that NK can claim to be the exclusive “maminim” (nor do they, afaik).
I don’t understand your accusation that they have “cut themselves off” from anyone. Beyond that, your words are inherently foolish, as a formal “kofer” is by definition not part of klal yisroel.
Beyond that, NK in the USA has recognized gadolim, afaik. They had the Kashu Rav ztz”l as well as Rav Moshe Ber Beck ztz”l who both recently passed away and were both active public supporters of the modern NK activities. I don’t know who, if anyone, has filled in the recent gap of losing these great men, so you would need to ask someone over there. Regardless, they certainly don’t claim that THEY don’t have Torah, so I don’t understand even the claim of kofer even if NK did stand completely alone.
@non-political
you ask me why MIGHT @yankel-berel’s motzei shem ro on NK also be masis imadiach?because NK is a/the public vocal face of tochocheh against the heresy of zionism that is targeting the sheomrei torah umitzvos communities. So, actively undermining the messengers that are trying remove heresy MIGHT be as guilty as trying to promote the heresy amongst yidden, hence masis imadiach.
Bump to keep this thread up. If still want my answer, I am awaiting your response.
please, evil man, tell me more about people who died to save us….
@zsk
You’re a fool who follows fools and it shows because your many words contain nothingness. The meaningful conversations here in CR on the subject of heresies like zionism in light of – lehavdil – Torah are conversations about Torah and what it teaches.You offer nothing.
No Torah, no integrity.
For example, you either never learned Vayoel Moshe or your are intentionally lying when you make the absurd claim there are no meaningful (haluchik?) differences. The arguments that dismantle RELIGOUS zionism are well laid out in that sefer. If you have a counterargument in Torah, go ahead and state it. But, you can’t pretend that the rejection of zionism is only “secularist Zionism”. Most of the sefer is bemoaning the crooked evil of “Religious” Zionism, as the Satmar Rebbe said: “Kook, yimach shemo”The Satmar Rebbe was not (only) upset by Kook’s secularism, rather he cred about how he distorted and abused the Holy Torah for his false messiah.
@simcha613 you would be equally surprised, I suppose, about what he might say about “Jews for J”
@yeshivaman613
the problem is that if they started filtering out the kefira, they would have to silence the zionist voices. not sure WHY that’s the problem exactly, but that seems to be the problem.@chaim87
why the hateful words? why the personal attack? I get that you wish I would, chsv”sh, follow your false religion instead of Judaism, but this is a Jewish website that should be a “safe space” to discuss Torah. If you have a Torah point to make about what I wrote, go for it. Otherwise, the barbs just continue to highlight the empty vessel that is “Religious Zionism”.If you think there is a “shikil daas” to make, make your stance. But, I’ll warn you that there is no such thing as “shikil daas” about the 13 ikkarim (by definition, that’s the point!). My claim – as has been the consistent claim of Torah leaders – is the heresy called “Religious Zionism” rejects a number of the 13 ikarim. This thread here is where I am in the process of explaining that claim for those who are afraid to open a Rambam or Vayoel Moshe or Shulchan Aruch.
@1
why would you let your kids go to houses where they do something crooked?maybe i am just having issue parsing your words. please make a concrete statement like “Gulis is ….”, so we will (hopefully) have a baseline agreement of what we are talking about.
[btw, i mean the thing we formally call “gulis” since chorbon bayis rishon, and perhaps since shibid mitzroyim. I don’t mean the nonspecific generalized word that could mean “gulis from my fathers house” or “personal gulis from myself”, etc. It is valuable you brought this up and the exact reason I want to clarify this word now.]