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In what world do you really believe that this is really Iran behind these “agents”? this could easily be the Zionist government as well as it could easily be completely fabricated from top to bottom.
So, I don’t think the argument should be “does this help Iran” as that just follows lockstep with the zionist propaganda that Iran is an enemy of the Jews, when rather they are an enemy of Israel (and the non-Jewish “West”).
The rest of your post is generally on point.
@rescue
lol, this is (supposed to be) a jewish forum. Judaism is (and I’m eyeballing the order of your post) pro- conformity
- alignment of attitudes, beliefs, behaviors with torah observant group
- loss of individuality
- suppressing personal identity, creativity, and perspectives (when not regulated by groupthink)
- fitting in
- loss of confidence (inwrong thought)
- groupthink
- poor decision-making, especially in high-stakes environments
- avoiding challenging the status quo
- avoiding new ideas
- stifling ‘improvements’
- inability to adapt to change
- ideological control around religious beliefs
- shutting down dissent
- echo chambers
that being said, let me emphasize that shutting down dissent is YES our responsibility when confronted with foolishness (like your post). While we don’t (and are not allowed to) choose adversity, don’t worry, we have bad people like you trying to tell us how to be Jewish. Are you going to burn us at the stake like your predecessors, or is this just a “friendly” attack?
Judaism is fully against “critical thinking”, and many seforim have been written explaining why.
We are indeed “responsible for our choices” but trust me that we know what the right thing is without your nonsense. We endorse and promote our Torah echo chamber and manage to do it without the delusions you are somehow so familiar with and wary of.
@always_ask_questions
The difference between Rav Chaim and your crooked “Modern Orthodox” is that the “Modern Orthodox” continue being mechalel shabbos after shabbos long after any chash pekiach nefesh!I can prove the point right now, rushe:
1) What is the nimshal of your “metephoric” chilil shabbos? What are the aveiras that MO has allowed in order to “save lives (sic)”?
2) Take the above answers (to question number 1), are they indeed aveiros?
3) do all MO people stop doing those aveiras once they mature away from their nimshal “pekiach nefesh”? Or, do they wither keep doing the aveira OR do they stop calling themselves MO and instead call themselves kosher Jews?
A] there are three answers to your question: 1) like the Shulchan Aruch in general, this is not an airtight inclusive list of every possible haluchic situation where one gives up their life (see Ramu here), rather the SA was written according to what was commonly applicable and commonly known haluches and their generally common psak. 2) breaking the shulosh shevios is a type of Avoda Zureh, 3) Breaking the shulosh shevios is by definition a “shaas shmaad”.
B] My “wonderful, ‘running away’ from EY idea” is simply proof that right now there is no pikiach nefesh NOW. If there WAS actually pekiach nefesh in EY, the first reaction from ANY SANE PESON would simply be to run away. this is not controversial!
I’l double down on the absurdity of your false zionist religion: if ANYONE really believed that there is NOW pekiach nefesh, there would be mass ongoing charity campaigns to support and promote jews leaving the zionist state. Instead, those crying “PEKIACH NEFESH!!! are exactly those same people crying that jews should, chalila, mass move to the zionist state from other countries!
Regarding a separate conversation about IF the zionists would disband their evil project. What that THEORETICAL means is that 1) if there would be a plan to correct the wrong of zionism and disband the IDF and the national government AND 2) there was no stable replacement government AND 3) the reaction by zionists or other evil parties would be to threaten lives and create a real pikiach nefesh situation, there SHOULD be the option either before during or after this plan to allow anyone who feels at risk to leave.
C] I’ve been explicit with my words as well as my intent.
D] No, that is not my stance, and certainly nothing I have “repeatedly claimed”. try NOT straw manning my position. If you don’t understand something I wrote, you can ask what I meant.
E] I don’t understand your question. Do you know what “haluche” is? Currently there is much psak haluche vis a vis the zionists, which a zionist kofer would transgress. The avnei nezer DOES say that one is (of course!) obligated to keep the Talmudic teaching we call the “Shulosh Sevios”, despite them not having been generally established (in his time) psak haluche. It would certainly , according to any koshe Jew and certainly the Avnei Nezer, an aveira to not keep ANY letter of the Torah including the “shulosh shevios”
F] Sounds like you are conceding the point. You earlier wrote ” the steipler clearly writes that the mere existence of the medina is not against the shavu’ot”. Now you seem to admit that STEIPLER DID NOT WRITE THAT. Is it true that you were wrong?
ALSO:
YOU have ignored the following:
>> you have never owned up to point that halacha everywhere is not decided by what would , could or should have been — only by what is …
>I have no idea what you are talking about or asking
G] Have you conceded that what you wrote here is nonsense?>> you have never owned up to the fact that avnei nezer clearly writes that haskamat ha’umot will negate the shavu’ot
>I’ve never been asked this. where does the Avnei Nezer say this? (please quote exact line, as some of his tshivas are very long)
H] Have you conceded that AVNEI NEZER DID NOT WRITE THAT. Is it true that you were wrong?@yankel-berel
most of your above “questions” are just ad hominem attacks against me. This is (or at least should be) a Torah conversation, which is the domain I care to discuss exclusively.I don’t want to, nor do I feel obliged to, distill sense out of your nonsense confused “questions”, so I can only ask you to do better at thinking and/or expressing coherent thoughts (I’m not sure where your failure comes from).
As a token of good faith, I’ve attempted to strip your above questions of ad hominem attacks and answer them point by point. since your “questions” are so malformed, I ask you to please continue the conversation by clarifying them as needed If you believe my answers are insufficient.
> you have never proved that your approach fits with sh’a YD 157
what is “my approach” and how is that approach in conflict with S”A?> you have never proved that your wonderful, ‘running away’ from EY idea , is going to solve all p/n problems
I never claimed that “running away” will immediately bring moshiach.> you have never owned up to the fact that you insinuated that rav chaim was a zuken mamre chvsh
I adamantly and explicitly did NOT insinuate that. I DID say that if you are foolish enough to call them, chas v’shulem, heretics/notzrim/reform/zionist/jewsforj, THEN one would be forced to say they are “zuken mamre” and would still not be allowed to abandon the Torah.> you have never owned up to point that halacha everywhere is not decided by what would , could or should have been — only by what is …
I have no idea what you are talking about or asking> you have never owned up to the fact that avnei nezer clearly says that the shavu’ot are … ‘not lehalacha’ [his language]
yes I did, I address this explicitly in comment: https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/matzav-article-about-golus-and-eretz-yisrael/page/3#post-2439476> you have never owned up to the fact that the steipler clearly writes that the mere existence of the medina is not against the shavu’ot
I have no idea what you are talking about or asking. The only source I can think of the from the Steipler is about if voting in the Medina (may it be quickly, peacefully destroyed) is forbidden in light of the shevios after the Medina has already been established. So, what is your question?> you have never owned up to the fact that avnei nezer clearly writes that haskamat ha’umot will negate the shavu’ot
I’ve never been asked this. where does the Avnei Nezer say this? (please quote exact line, as some of his tshivas are very long)> both of you miss the point
did you not just fully agree with “both of you” that the claim of “rights” is not a Torah idea and is otherwise a stupid statement of @yankel-berel false zionist religion?
that being said, i appreciate you bringing out the (obvious) point even more explicitly.
IT’S PIKIACH NEFESH IN ZIONIST ISRAEL!!!
WE MUST ALL “Prepare to Flee To America!”
all of your hypotheticals of political involvement in dismantling the zionist state or (chsv”sh) fighting in their wars are ALL toldos of zionism, i.e. attempts to take jewish destiny in our own (physical) hands, chas v’shulem.
agudas yisroel fights zionism with zionism, something the Satmar Rebbe was adamantly outspoken against.
[this is, btw, my main kasha on NK, however to their credit they claim to not be at all political, and have no political (read: practical) agenda. instead they seem to be simply leveraging the political activities to vocalize the Torah (to be be moche, amongst other mitvos)]
@always_ask_questions
> I think Israel is not USSR, you can get up and leave
many jews get arrested while trying to leave> you want to live in a country but do not agree with the government? It is a democracy, so you can…
we jews disagree with the democracy version of zionism as well. We do not want to, chalila, improve it, we want to see it destroyed (peacefully)> you want to live in a country but do not want to follow the laws created by that democracy? then, you are a criminal in any normal country.
correct. jews were legal criminals in nazi germany. we are criminals in nazi israel as well.
calling someone a “criminal” is not a moral statement of right or wrong, it is a technical reality vis-a-vis according to who has the guns.
to be clear, many Jews lived here before the evil zionists came and violently took control. those same jews can continue to resist and reject that government. So too can anyone else from wherever they are in the world.> you disagree with the government just because it is run by Jews but not according to halocha? Then, you are a real Zionist
I agree. those are the worst types of zionists. may Hashem quickly destroy all those who rebel against Him and profane His Torah.
@yankel-berel
>every jew has the inherent right to live in EY
that is certainly not a Torah given “right”, so who is declaring such a “right” for all Jews?
We Jews are in gulis, which literally meant that we lost any collective G-d given “right” to live in EY.The rest of your musing are equally foolish. who gives you the “right” to not be coerced by secularist? Are you free to demand that you have no nisyonos?
Where do you get all this foolishness from, notzris? nationalism? mental issues?
@yankel-berel
i still have no idea what you are talking about. did i leave something unanswered? did I abandon some thread too early?
instead of just throwing out a baseless accusation, point out something i did or didn’t say that aligns with your “pattern”.
(I don’t care to repeat the same answers to the same questions over and over, despite your foolish desire to keep asking the exact same questions after they have been answered, such as your inability to read SH’A YD 157, with zero acknowledgment on your part to respond either admitting or arguing against those answers)As mentioned, I believe I have been very clear about my position regarding the various threads. I believe I have been very transparent about the mokoros I have learned that support my positions and have been equally responsive in explaining other mekoros that confuse some people.
If I have failed in any of the above three things [1. clarity in position, 2. providing supporting mekoros, 3. explaining seemingly challenging mekoros] please point me to that failure and I will – IY”H – respond.
If your tactic is to just double down on your own stupidity and ignore the Torah, I can’t help you, and I don’t see a point in joining the conversational nonsense circles you build for yourself.
@qwerty613
it’s obvious Rav Miller is talking about tinokos shenibu that are still part of amecha, just like the chazon ish talks about at the beginning of YD.@yankel-berel
when did I “get offended and disappear”?I was clear in what I wrote.
lol. you continue to embarrass your church and your fake god.
if there was no zionism, there WOULDN’T HAVE BEEN an Oct 7!Your silly logic is that despite the clear punishment (as explicit in chazal), you demand MORE ZIONISM! Just like pharaoh (maybe worse!)
Using your logic, you would say such insights like “if not for the nazi guards, can you imagine how much WORSE the germans would have treaded the Jews in Auschwitz?!!”
“Sure”, you say, “they failed to protect 6 million”, but they SAVED the other 12 MILLION!!”Yet your avoda zureh is more precious than the lives of your own children as you keep sending your boys off to die for that fake religion you call “dati leumi”. Those boys die making the greatest chilil Hashem, making religious zionists around the world proud, R”L.
>Sorry for not being clear enough. The Maharal, according to the Vayoel Moshe…
I want to thank you for that explanation. Very well written and to the point.@ujm
> There’s a clear shitta (which I believe is the majority shitta) that **any** exposure to frum Yidden makes a non-frum Jew NOT a tinok shenishba. (Despite all your taainos against this shitta.)that’s a machlokes Rambam and Nimukei Yosef (and Rebaini Tam), with the Rambam allowing exposure without necessarily losing the status of o’nes.
While the Mechaber and Ramu paskin like the Rambam, the Shach adds that the Rambam would agree with Radba”z who says that more decrepit generations (like in the time of the Radba”z) completely lose the exception of “tinok shenishbu”, regardless of exposure.
The Baal Hatanya (end hilchos ribis) brings both (Rambam and N”Y) l’haluche and says one should be machmir for both for d’orysas.
@mbachur
no idea. i don’t know anything about chickens. i ask the guy selling kaporos if this a boy or girl.i suppose you can just look at the chickens being shechted if you know the difference, or do like many erliche people and only eat chickens you witness the shechita of (a monthly event for some families)
@yankel-berel
Regarding the chazon ish, I gave 4 option and NONE of them were “zuken mamre”. To quote myself above: You are forced to say either he was 1) wrong, 2) typo, 3) misunderstood, or 4) needing context.so too your other critiques where you dishonestly lie about what I wrote. \
@yankel-berel, you are fool who doesn’t even attempt to argue in good faith, rather you try to scream loudest and flood the boards with repetitive spam.@yaakov-yosef-a
> Did you think about that possibility?
I’m not sure what you are inserting into my words. At this point, I don’t even know what we are arguing about. You seem to be very confused about a subject that is causing you to spin your wheels in exasperation.The category of “tinik shenishbu” is NOT a category of “in” or “out” of “amecha”, rather it is its own sugy the discusses whether o’nes actions are ones or not. A person can be otherwise “charedi” and be a “tinik shenishbu” (read o’nes) vis-a-vis any given haluche if they were raised with that mistake from their parents.
1) So, you can have a yid growing up in the jungles of the Amazon amongst mamash goyim, and he would be a “tinik shenishbu” vis-a-vis all his aveiras (with caveats that would distract from this conversation). He would also NOT be part of “amecha” in that he is not “achicha b’Torah i’mitzvos”. His status as “tinik shenishbu” would simply mean that he is not punished for the aveiras that are not his fault, like any other o’nes.
2) Alternatively, you can have a “Modern Orthodox” yid growing up in LA who keeps kosher and shabbos, hangs out in mixed company, shakes womens hands and hugs them casually, has an unfiltered smartphone, and marries a lady with a long lace-shaitel and send his kids to college (rachmunu latzlan on all of this). He would certainly agree to ALL of the 13 ikarim and keeps all the haluches as taught to him by his “conservative-friendly rabbi (sic)”. He is simply not aware that his “rabbi” is crooked in telling him all the above is okay. This person would be a “tinik shenishbu” vis-a-vis all those aveiras and also be “amecha” in that he believes all the ikarim, keeps shabbos, and keeps most mitzvas, and doesn’t do any aveiras “l’hachis”.
3) Take the above person, and instead of him believe all the 13 ikarim, he was instead taught as a child to reject the Written Torah (chalilah!) as being perfect letter for letter, and no one ever taught him different. Now, he would seemingly be a “tinik shenishbu” who is NOT part of “amecha”.
4) Take the above person, and have his local charedi rabbi inform him about the accuracy of our Torah as a fundamental of Judaism, and now if he is mekabel, he becomes part of “amecha” and otherwise (chalila) he would stay not part of “amecha” and perhaps lose the excuse of o’nes.
> YYA: Do you understand that the moment you even theoretically accept the possibility that ‘Klal Yisroel’ numbers only 7,000 people you forfeit any right to make an ‘argument from numbers’?
> YYA: I have met many people who are either Satmar Chassidim or were students of Satmar or Satmar-oriented mosdos, but I have never heard any of them הלכה למעשה write off 99.95% of people born to Jewish mothers as literally being Goyim. I find that telling. I also find it telling that you seem to struggle with marei mekomos from the seforim of your ‘own’ Chassidus.This is exactly the argument I was making previously. Religious Jews CANNOT make a numbers game. Not only is it an anti-Torah concept, it doesn’t make any sense. All “orthodox” Jews reject 99.95% of people claiming to be the true “chosen nation”, including notzrim, reform, and zionists. We ALSO, as per the clear psak of Rambam, S”A, and LITERALLY EVERY OTHER MAJOR POSEK we reject all Jews who aren’t achicah b’mitzvos as NOT part of “amecha”.
This has nothing to do with the other very important sugyas of our obligation to hate and/or mekarev anyone based on our relationship with them and the ways that they present themselves to the world.
BTW I apologize that after reading what I wrote my use of “our children” seemed to imply that I send my own children there. I try very much not to talk about myself in these threads as it is immaterial, but I do not claim to be Satmar nor do I claim to send my children to “the largest Satmar mosdoses”. I intended to phrase “our children” it that was to mean “klal yisroel’s” children, meaning it’s the largest chinuch network in the world (I didn’t check any actual stats here, just basing this off the oversieded Satmar population in the world, kain yirbi).
Regarding “haluche lemayseh”, I’m not sure what haluches you are talking about. Would ANY of them drink wine whose 99.95% touched?
> Another question I wanted to ask you: לשיטתך, what will happen to the millions of non-Frum Jews when Moshiach comes?
I have not idea what will happen when Moshiach comes beyond what is written in classic seforim. As I understand it, Moshiach will return everyone to tshiva. This will be precluded by or together with some sort of biur where the reshoyim will be destroyed. I’m not sure the timeline, only that WE will not know who is moshiach until he brings all of klal yisroel to tshiva shleima.
I would be very interested in continuing this conversation by email if you want to do a deeper dive into mekoros. you can reach out to me at my gmail
@mbachur
masora. ask your father or rav.@yankel-berel
> somejew is in the business of giving out zuken mamre cards ….
again, you keep laying out this acusation, but I don’t believe I’ve ever labeled anyone a zuken mamre. The closest I have come is saying that IF you claim a certain gadol is a zionist, then you are simply claiming him a zuken mamre.In reality, our charedi gadolim are – without exception – explicitly and adamantly anti-zionist. that is what “charedi” means (in common usage)
@yankel-berel
maybe just read SH’A YD 157. it does not say “only 3 hamurot(sic) are yehareig ve al yaavor”i never wrote any of those things. i’m not sure what you look to gain by be motzei shem ru on me and making up lies about what I wrote. I’m not that important for you to do such avairos over.
@yaakov-yosef-a
the chidish of tinik shenishbu is that they are o’nes and NOT mazid if they are taught something heretical as “Truth” and didn’t have enough access to the real Truth that they would be obligated to recalibrate to.once a certain threshold of exposure is passed, and this is where many struggle to delineate clearly, they become mazid if they don’t become ereliche yidden. I don’t know if such a “mazid” person would still be called a “tinok shenishbu” in common usage of the term. If you want to agree between use that “tinok shenishbu” should only mean while they are still “o’nes”, I think that would make the conversation easier.
Regardless, those “trapped” in the notzri or zionist churches I was referring to are those who are the “o’nes” type of tinok shenishbu.
> YYA: I heard years ago from my Rebbe זצ״ל (who was a big anti-Zionist) that there are people who say this. To put it VERY mildly, he did not like the idea and said it is horrible Chinuch… This is the first time I have ever encountered anyone who admits to actually saying such a thing to his children.
what do you mean “admit”? This is something taught to our children in the largest Satmar mosdoses (amongst others), which is – I should reiterate – the largest charedi subgroup. I find it telling that you have sedarim in Vayoel Moshe and Al HaGeilah, but you have never met someone who grew up in and is a student Satmar…
Again, if there was a private channel to communicate, I would happily learn with you.
> So, let me ask you. Where does this הנהגה come from?
I don’t know.> Why, in the middle of your Shabbos Seuda, do you and your children need to think of Zionists and violent death, which would probably upset your Oneg Shabbos unless you are psychopathic sadists?
It’s not a violent thought, it’s more happy unicorns and flowers as we imagine the world being purified from all their Zionist filth and guns and wars and battles against yiddishkeit, and imagining the world where Hashem’s Kisei is Shulem. Kind of like Pirim, but without being shiker.> And if you do need to wish death upon someone in order to enjoy your chulent, so why not say ‘Amaleki’?
It’s a good question. I don’t know why they changed their name from “Amaleki” to “Zionist”. Perhaps they thought it better PR to fool the Jews, but we’re one step ahead with our chulent.Another question: What do you think about more often – Hashem, Torah, or להבדיל Zionists?
Hashem and His Torah, without a doubt.@anisraeliyid
zionists, especially to “religious” min, are not “fellow jews”, they are amulek, may they be peacefully uprooted from the world.different masorahs on which chicken breeds are kosher.
thank you for highlighting and being adamant about the correct traditional Torah definition of “Kudosh”, as a specific choice a person makes to give up one’s life instead of rebelling against Hashem. That is indeed the baseline standard.
@participant
I think it obvious to any Torah educated Jew that they should never take such a government course (unless that “government”, if you can call it such, is the nuvi Melech Hamoshiach)> YYA – So now you are gores the Chazon Ish…
when did I ever push against the chazon ish?> I was waiting for you to finally be forced to admit.
why the language of “forced to admit”, where was the initial friction?In questions of pikiach nefesh, when there is a question of tinik shenishbu o’nes, one should presume they are o’nes and save their lives. This is exactly the language of the Rambam who says one shouldn’t be too hasty to kill them for being minim because they might do tshiva if you mekarev them. Yet none of this precludes our obligation still to hate them, not give them tzedukeh, speak badly on them, etc. in the meantime and they are still not part of klal yisroel until they chose to join us, and this is even if they are indeed tinokus shenishu.
> What about Ruchniyusdige Pekiach Neifesh?
I don’t know what that is.I don’t disagree with the Chazon Ish. I did claim some people (not major mainstream poskim, asfaik) misunderstand his tshivas at the beginning of YD. I certainly never called him, chalila, a zuken mamre.
@always_ask_questions
can’t prove a negative. why would any posek explain that they don’t go against the Rambam, Shulchan Aruch, Baal HaTanya, and Mishne Berira (with zero poskim on the other side except for @yaakov-yosef-a trying to read a Chazon Ish)?@yaakov-yosef-a
More question, more answers:
> How was the First Beis Hamikdash destroyed because Jews did Avoda Zara? According to you, as soon as someone did AZ (kal vachomer from chilul Shabbos), he would be erased from Klal Yisroel and not count towards ערבות or anything else. Klal Yisroel would simply be the sum total of whoever didn’t do AZ or Chilul Shabbos. So how do we see the Neviim giving Mussar to these people (probably including your great-great-zaidie and bubbie) who you don’t consider to be Jews? Sort of like no OTD in Satmar because anyone OTD isn’t Satmar… No AZ in Klal Yisroel because anyone doing AZ isn’t Klal Yisroel… Except it didn’t work that way then, even though then everyone knew better and they had a Sanhedrin and Neviim and Malchus Bais Dovid. But NOW, when רובא דרובא of those born Jewish are confused or clueless about basic Emunah, including many Frum people, you think it does work that way… פלאי פלאים נורא נוראות…I don’t appreciate you hanging this on me, as my stance is well documented in Chazal and poskim. Argue against the Torah claim, not the person. I didn’t invent anything I’m saying. At worse, I’ve misunderstood something (or everything). If you think I have made a mistake, ask me for a source instead of asking me to defend the Torah generally.
In any case, this seems to be one long single question. The Satmar Rebbe (I recall) asks this question in his hakdumeh to Vayoel Moshe. His answer is that kosher Jews were punished in Bayis Rishon for not being properly moche.
@yaakov-yosef-a
As somejew you know and love, I’ll respond first to your numbered points:1. It’s not “despite knowing little or nothing”, it’s specifically because of it. One cannot be “Achicha” b’mitzvos if they don’t know enough. (there is fascinating Torahs written about if/how an infant is achicha based on this foundational point)
2. There are various levels relevant to different halachos, such as (sorry if I miss a few, this is all ad-hoc) an idolator, ben-noach, stam non-jew, tinok shenishbu, jew who joined a”z, jew who doesn’t keep majority of the (common) mitzvos, jew who doubts any of the 13 ikkarim, jew who doesn’t keep shabbos publicly, jew who regularly does multiple aveiros, jew who regularly does a single aveirah, jew who was forced to do an aveira, jew who did an aveirah to rebel against heaven, jew who did an aveira because of a personal consideration (pleasure, money, etc), jew who did an aveira because he didn’t realize what he was doing, jew who did an aveira because he misunderstood the haluche and thought it allowed. And all these (non linear, sometimes mix and matchable) categories are applied differently to different haluches such as killing then, passively letting them die, saving their lives, saving their lives while “breaking” shabbos, self-defence, yichid, mesira, tzedukeh, dinei mamunos, ribis, loving them, hating them , lushon hureh, motzi shem ru, airiv tachumim, shchita, hischabris, yayin nesech, chezkus kashrus, n’emunis, etc.
3. There is a red line of who is part of “amecha” (am yisroel/klal yisroel), and those basic requirements are 1) keeping most common mitzvos, 2) believing without doubt the 13 ikarim, 3) keeping shabbos publicly. Like any sugya, there is much beautiful Torah iyun in each part of that “red line” (what means “public”?, what are the exact terms of the ikarim?, etc) , but the red line exists whether we can identify the minutia of its precise location or not.
The living population count of those who are in “amecha” does not change the “red-line”. It might be 10; it might be 10 million.
I don’t know who if others or anyone will be “killed in preparation for the Geulah”. It’s not anything I’ve studied, unfortunately.
4. I never said anything like this. I am active here in CR specifically to help kosher people that have been lied to.
Now on to your questions:
> Do you think you yourselves are in the top 7,000 members of Klal Yisroel or whatever your numbers are?
I hope so, but can’t be sure. Chazal say one shouldn’t consider themselves a rushe. However, I am always trying to learn more and align myself to Torah.
> Do you at least get up at חצות and cry and mourn that so many einiklach of Avrohom Yitzchok and Yaakov are so far gone, and cry and daven with copious tears that they should do Teshuva?
No.
> Or is that also Assur?
No. I daven the whole world should be full of “Daas Hashem”, and with copius tears. However, it might be assur to specifically or publicly daven for minim as it 1) imply a correction to anshei knseses hagedolah’s established tefila for their destruction, 2) goes against the Torah sources that say explicitly that they are NOT “einiklach of Avrohom Yitzchok and Yaakov” just like we don’t daven as such for their other non-Jewish eineklach (like bnei Yishmoel or Edom), 3) might be “madiach” chalila other yidden to foolishly think they are part of klal yisroel and reinforce the zionist lie that Jews are part of Am Yisroel even without Torah, thereby breaking the many halochos that dictate how kosher jews must relate to such minim.> Or do you just not care and finished?
No, I do care. I hate the reshoyim and cry for the tinukos shenishbu like those trapped at YU and HUC and Mirkaz Hara. At might shabbos tish, like many, we encourage our kids to eat the chulent saying “yeder bundel hargit a tziyoni”.
> If you were a Hatzalah volunteer, and a non-Frum Jew was having a heart attack ר״ל, would you really and truly be מורידין ולא מעלין, or would you (at LEAST) say ספק פיקוח נפש להחמיר when you have BOTH a פלוגתא דרבוותא and a ספק במציאות? Can you NAME ANY POSEK WHATSOEVER who would Pasken to literally leave the person to die?
As the Chazon Ish says, we must judge each person individually. And, poskim have been clear that we must always be machmir on all sides when concerned for pikiach nefesh. I’m not sure what “pligsa” you are referring to.
This is all besides the fact that with a known rushe merisha, I’m pretty sure the reasons for saving their lives include “aimuh”, threats of jail as punishment (especially for emergency workers), as well as loss of future privilege by those organizations that help enable their lifesaving work.
@DaMoshe
what is the reference for “R’ Shlomo Kluger” about the shevios you mention? I would like to look it up@yaakov-yosef-a
I don’t see what your issue is (besides the ad-hominem attacks).My whole point is that we, you and I and all kosher Jews, look to and learn from the Torah as passed down. We don’t play numbers games!
That’s all.
I’m writing a longer relevant response for your new topic https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/who-is-a-jew , which I suspect was inspired by this thread.
@yaakov-yosef-a
why the aggression? I am being sincere.
You seem to take issue with my option #2, that it’s not a typo. I apologize if the sefer Chazon Ish was published as you described, it’s not a history I am familiar with. I was not trying to be dishonest as if I really knew it was carefully edited by the chazon ish himself.I called the implication of your comment amharutzus, something that not only have I never came across a kosher shita that would support such an idea, but is so beyond the pale that you must not have thought through the implications.
The “amharutzus” I identified was “even if ignorance is not in the geder of kefira, such a person (who doesn’t believe ikarei eminah or keep mitzvos/shabbos) would simply be an apikorus, or min, or just a plain old mimar.”
I don’t believe that there is any respected student of the chazon ish that claims in his rebbi’s name that such a person is still part of “amecha”, and this is all in light of and perhaps despite the difficult questions that have been posed (and answered) on the tshivos of the Chazon Ish.
I hope I am not straw-manning your stance, and if I am please correct. Perhaps we are misunderstanding each other. Please point me to the sources that are your “MORE מוסכם להלכה”, and I will continue answering with sincerity, iy”H.
@yedl
I’m greater than Moshe Rebaini in number of CR comments!I’m certainly not on the side of any of the kefira or it’s supporters. Here are the normative Torah answers to your question:
1. (A) No,
1. (B) “Kudosh” in generally used to mean someone who fulfilled the mitzvah of dying “al kiddish Hashem”. Non-Jews are not commanded to die such a death, so they cannot called “Kudosh” in the normal usage.
1. (C) No
1. (D) Perhaps if his intent is to die in zionist clothing to show the world how evil zionism is, how it is a cult of death that loves jewish blood being spilt, etc, then you could say he needs the Nazi-IDF uniform to die his private (al kiddish Hashem) and be kudosh.2. (A) None.
2. (B) No
2. (C) No
2. (D) No
2. (E) No3.(A) Yes, see above 🙂
@anisraeliyid please point to your intended “Halacha Pesuka” or intended “Rambam” that says we shouldn’t run away from danger or whatever you are trying to say.
@yankel-berel
that’s about as valid as saying Hitler didn’t target Jews because he was a Nazi, even though he happened to be a Nazi (there are plenty of non-Nazis who targeted Jews!).@jerusalemy
I am always amazed by the stupidity of relying on government for safety regulation, when government is dismal at everything they do except taking the public’s money.I appreciate the intent of OP @jerusalemy, but the answer is certainly not more bureaucracy.
I would suggest a private system of certification, like heksherim, that can be communally leveraged by parents very much like any consumer product.
@yaakov-yosef-a
yes. I have my take on his tshivas at the beginning of YD. No matter HOW you learn the sugya, it is difficult. You are forced to say either he was 1) wrong, 2) typo, 3) misunderstood, or 4) needing context.I take option 3, but I am loathe to delve into it in a public forum. I wish there was a private channel to speak with you, and I would be happy to delve into it.
Regardless, the later great poskim have themselves struggled with this sugya in light of the chazon ish and dealt with it in similar fashion with conclusions that guide my previous statements.
@yaakov-yosef-a
I’ll start at the bottom of your answer and go to the top, since I think it will make my point clearer.1)
My reason for the “negativism” (chalilah to call Torah such a thing!) in focusing on this part of the Torah is specifically because of people like yourself who validate and promote heretical anti-Torah viewpoints simply because there are a lot of foolish people who believe and/or parrot those crooked ideas. This aversion to push against apikorisus simply because of the number of claimed adherents is both obviously foolish and a stable of all types of apologetics for xtianity/reform/zionism/etc.2)
I didn’t “mix up pshat”, I expressed the statements of poskim who have outlines the various consideration, classifications and degrees of sin, sinners, and how we are meant to relate to them. The sefer Bina V’Daas from a rav adler (? i think) shlit”a is a respected starting point for the different shitas.3)
Beyond that, I am disheartened that you straw-manned my question as if it is “my whole hashkafah” based on a statement of which I barely claimed to be aware of its accuracy. My point in mentioning it was simply to bring out the absurdity of the aforementioned numbers game. The point is NOT to think “I’m the greatest” or even “only my group has the emes”, its simply to demand of myself to seek the emes of the Torah despite the rampant kefira and misdirection from fraudulent authorities: “common knowledge”, “gedolei yisroel”, “satmar rebbes”, “reform rebbes”, “charedim”, “all jews”, “klal yisroel”, “hamodea”, “artscroll”, “melech hamoshiach”, etc.We Jews have an inheritance called the Torah that is accessible and available to anyone who wants it. It is the Torah that is taught by our true gedolim as per the guidelines outlined in the classic sources we all known and love.
If you are not sure who is a “true gadol” or what is a “classic source”, daven and choose a starting point, and Hashem will certainly lead you to the emes. It is only fools with agendas that say things like “well, it’s complicated” or “there are many opinions that are all valid” vis-a-vis a general Torah outlook.
The reality is that details can indeed get complicated, edge cases can have a spectrum of validity, but 99.9% of true available Torah is neither complicated nor undecided for laymen. The talmidei chachamim who are osek in Torah, the gedolim whose tshivas fill pages of complexity, are dealing with that 0.1% of ambiguity that sharpens and build true daas Torah.
4)
The “6000” is not, as I understood it in my comment, a statement of “top 6000 of klal yisroel”, rather I understood it as a statement of who is AT ALL part of klal yisroel. That is to say when moshiach comes klal yisroel will only number 6000 (or, 7000 as per your correction).That means, as I am understanding it (again, not a centerpiece of my hashkufeh, just an exercise of integrity), the other “jews” are “jews” who are not part of klal yisroel, who do not get olam habu, who do not do tshivah when moshaich comes. These evil masses (in this theoretical) we are not allowed to love, rather we are obligated to hate. We do not pray (explicitly) for their “return”, rather we pray for their destruction.
So, my question again @yaakov-yosef-a: does this bother you? If so, why?
Now, I understand you are probably screaming ” but that’s misunderstanding the medrash of 7000!!”, which I fully admit might be true. Yet I suspect that you struggle calling the movement of “religious zionists” “reshoyim evil worse than nazis” despite that they are teaching a fake “torah” like the notzrim teach their fake “torah”. I suspect you have problem hating their priest leaders because of “kavod ha(fake)torah”, even though you know Kook sh”y had no valid sources for his teachings and knowingly tricked the masses to rebel against the Torah. All this only because of a numbers game trap you have fallen for.
Jewish blood flows like rivers because of the zionists, their wars, and the Divine punishment they arouse upon sonei yisroel. Worse, the kefira continue to spread worse than reform, and simple people start believing that our gulis is because of lack of an army or our rescue by means of one, chalila. Beyond that people start believing that Judaism is an ethno-religion or just “the best life”. It’s not “just” that, rather Judaism begins and ends with us being am hanivchar that is fully submitted to Hashem and His Torah. And when the aforementioned red lines are clear, there will be much less confusion for those who want to be part of klal yisroel despite the zeitgeist.
thank you for a well written summary response. to add, there are zero poskim who dismiss the shevios. even the disgraceful distortion of Torah sources that this other religion leverage to support their fake moshiach, such as the tshiva of the holy Avnei Nezer, nor a fraudulent letter from the Or Someyach, never entertain the absurd claim that we Jews are not obligated to keep the shevios. The Avnei Nezer concludes his long tshiva that Jews are not obligated to go Eretz Yisroel because of (amongst other reasons) the shevios. The fraudulent Or Someyach letter claims a situation in the 1920s that “removed the fear of the oaths”, claiming an exception to the otherwise binding reality of the shevios. I can only presume that the evil Mizrachi authors of that fraud knew that even the amharutzim they were trying to trick wouldn’t fall for the absurd “new scripture” that @anon1m0us is preaching.
@yaakov-yosef-a
toy wrote regarding kefira: “You have to know something in order to deny it”I’m surprised to see this level of dishonesty and am-harutzus from you. Please post a makor for such an idea, as I don’t believe it exists. Regardless (and this is the amharutzus), even if (according to your nonsense) it’s not in the geder of kefira, such a person would simply be an apikorus, or min, or just a plain old mimar.
All of these words have their own specific definitions, and collectivley they firmly reject any person who does not maintain a baseline yiddishkeit. There is simply zero place in klal yisroel for anyone who is not on board, including the greatest of talmidei chachomim and influential gedolim who can become a “zuken mamre” if they ever chalila cross that line.
Additionally, all these dinim are specifically ways that WE must judge OTHERS, and they are guidelines based specifically on what WE can see, not what goes on in their hearts. So, even if you would claim the above theory about an ignoramus and kefira, it wouldn’t change how WE must relate to such a rushe (it would only be relevant in beis din shel maaleh).
@anisraeliyid
um, no that halacha is at most relevant to an adhoc situation on shabbos that must be dealt with. Otherwise, certainly one be obligated to move away before shabbos to avoid a known danger, both because of the laws a putting oneself in danger as well as not causing chilil shabbos.Certainly if Jews can rely on a shabbos goy (like @simcha613 want his kids to be) to defend, they should be employed (of course only when not breaking the shevios)
If you think the zionist state is dangerous now you should certainly move away before shabbos. Of course, ask a posek what means “dangerous” before you buy your turkish airlines tickets.
I “heard” in the name of Satmar Rebbe zy”a that there are only [or will only be (when moshiach comes)] 6000 erleche yidden in the world [or in eretz yisroel].
Now without debating the accuracy of such a statement, nor debating the value of such a statement even if indeed having been taught by the Satmar Rebbe. My question for you, @yaakov-yosef-a, is simply if you would be bothered by that fact?
Would you be surprised? worried? Claim it impossible?
I, personally, have no issue with that consideration as most of the upstanding normal Jews of all colors I know are full of heresy from top to bottom.
I beg you to please, if you respond to my question, explain if this aligns with your view on the masses of secular reshoyim that claim the title “jewish” while claiming they don’t keep shabbos.
Unfortunately it seems that many people would rather ignore what the Torah teaches it really means to be part of klal yisroel, what the real acceptance criteria are for Olam Habu (which may be as strict as rejection from even one intentional sin l’teyuvon without doing real tshiva), and instead they would rather feel better relying on questionable if not heretical Torah claims or relying on questionable if not heretical “rabbunim”, all to avoid personally doing tshiva.
@zsk
what is the difference between “LiHalacha” and when the Meiri says “don’t do it”?I don’t think you understand that “LiHalacha” means and I don’t think you understand why (or even know that) the Satmar Rebbe also says the shevios are not “LiHalacha” in Vayoel Moshe.
@qwerty613
I criticized the bad things common in MO today. You responded that there are other jews who do bad things. And you said that I should be careful about calling out such bad things.to quote exactly what you wrote:
And there are Chassidim who casually … so let’s be careful about attacking other groups of Jews.
</bockquote>
I don’t understand why the failings of any other Jews should demand I “be careful”. Careful of what? Also calling out their bad behavior?[BTW, I disagree with your public tochacha of “chassidim” as you wrote it, which is why i replaced the motei shem ru with ellipsis. Those unnamed “chassidim” could be anyone, and you are painting the whole general population of “chassidim” with that brush. This could be valid criticism if the bad behavior was something endorsed widely by ANY of the many formal groups that claim the title “Chassidim”, but they certainly do not. Not only that, the sins you mentioned are not only NOT endorsed by any chassidic groups, they are already clearly and adamantly recognized as bad behavior and officially rejected by all those groups and sub-groups as well as all their theological leaders. Contrast this to the many groups and leaders that claim themselves MO who support and endorse the aforementioned sins and whose students practice that heresy in their names. ]
@johnnysmith
I support @Hakatan’s participation in CR. He tends to get to the core of a lot of issues, enlightens them with Torah true perspectives, and save many of us from the need to answer in his stead.This website is targeted for Jews who practice Judaism. If there weren’t so many messianic/reformists/zionists/etc trying to defend their nonsense, Hakatan (and others) wouldn’t need to counter it in this public space.