somejewiknow

Again, you claim a shita in Torah that isn’t there.
As you mentioned, working with the Conservatives doesn’t per se make one a certain kofer, so too working with Tzionim doesn’t per se make you a kofer. That doesn’t mean you support them! And if you, @Chaim87, insist that working with kofrim (like you claim about that evil masis imadiach Sol Liberman) makes one also a kofer, so that is how you are learning out the situation with any of the names you’ve mentioned.
The point, and I’m sure @Chaim87 will miss it but other readers won’t, is that we have already clear psak from accepted Gedolim that Zionism is kefira. Additionally, there is no counter psak. So, if you demand to box in any Ruv into being a advocate for that kefira, you are simply pasuling him.
You are puting the cart before the horse if you claim otherwise: Our Torah guides us and defines who is a Gadol in Torah. You don’t say a someone can be a Gadol if he rejects the Torah. And, again, there is no shita in Torah that kashers the trafine kefira of zionism, so it’s one or the other.

@Chaim87 and @always_ask_questions
I’m looking for a mehalech in Torah, and I am asking sincerely.
When chaim points to “how they acted” and tries to prove they supported what is clear kefira, I cannot take it seriously.
I am happy chaim at least attempted to provide a source, but even that is empty. This is a sefer that is not clear it’s contents, is not available or mainstream, and does not on the surface seem to be a serious Torah work that explains a “shita”.
Furthermore, the author is not someone of stature that demand anyone taking him seriously. Who acknowledged his supposed zionist shita? who argued with it? What is the the explanation of his understanding? Did he give (or even have the ability to give) psak? Was he put into cherem like kook, or was his stance not full of kefira, and if so how was it distinct?
I’m sincerely looking for a way to understand, but I sense chaim’s whole stance is both completely dishonest and a mockery of Torah.
None of the above questions are small, and their answers should (if Chaim was presenting an honest answer) be readily apparent in the Torah world.
Instead, chaim is grasping at any straw he can find, and then saying “see, great men in Israel also worshiped Baal! There is nothing wrong with this path! join the church of zionism! join the army of death!”

what fool believes antisemitism is in the hands of the non-jews?
this is kefira 101.
The Jewish People believe in schar v’onesh

@Chaim87
I can point to numerous published Torah works from well before Zionism that reject a Jewish state, regardless of it keeping other parts of the Torah.
The masora is so strong and clear, from Talmud, Midrashim, to Rambam Ramban, Maharal, Aruch Hashulchan, to modern day gedolim like the Satmar Rebbe, Brsker Rav, Chazon Ish.
One of the Aguda Founders that architected the way they work with the zionist medina wrote a whole sefer, Biyos Hazman, which outlines at lenght the issur of having a state and that hi biggest concern in their new path is that the frim public will misunderstand what Aguda is doing and thing that the mdeina is OK.

If you want any published sources from the above, I can provide them as clearly forbidding a zionist state.

On the other side, I ask you to please provide me any ANY Torah defense of the zionist state, published by any of Gadolim you mentioned. You will not find it because it is clear kefira in the Torah.

Please show me any source, without reverting to hearsay and fabricated stories. If anyone, even a gadol in Torah, would G-d forbid endorse Jews having a state, they would have been immediately put in cherem like kook’s writing were for this reason. For this reason, I know you will not find any source. May be you should publish the first one and either be ignored as a nobody or be put in cherem as a masis imadiach, or worse maybe a “navi sheker” like kook shr”y.

if you don’t care what people will say about your publicized opinions, why publicize them?

@chaim87
Rav Shteinaman zatzal was adamant about the evils of the IDF and specifically “Nachal Chareidi”.

Do you care about the truth? Do you care about Rav Shteinaman really said, or are you just looking for any way to support your idol and send your children off to die for it?

Rav Shteinaman zatzal said that his only support for Nachal Charedi was for those evil bucherim who were already no longer part of klal yisroel, mechalile shabbos b’farhesia, and his support was simply in order to rescue out Jewish neighborhoods from their bad influence with no better alternative:

Don Segal sent a letter to R. Aharon Leib Shteinman inquiring about rumors that he supported Nachal Chareidi.
In response, R. Shteinman wrote back as follows:
לכ׳ ידידי הגאון והצדיק ר׳ דן סגל הי״ו
נעימות בימינו נצח.

היות ששמע קול גדול ולא יסף כאילו אני תומך בענין נחל חרדי, שבחורים שהם חלשים בלמוד התורה או ביראת שמים טוב להם להיות שם וכמובן שדבר זה לא עולה על הדעת כלל. מה שהי׳ מדובר בהתחלה הוא שבחורים שמחללי שבת ועוברים על עוד חייבי כריתות ממש ואביו רוצה להצילו ולהציל את הרחוב מלהזיקם שאין לנו כח למענו, אבל ודאי זה עון לא יכופר אם שמסיר או שמשתדל באיזה צורה שהיא וגורם למי שאינו מחלל שבת ועוד חייבי כריתות להמצא שם.

ואני נמנע מלהשיב בדרך כלל בענין זה כי דרך חלק מאנשים מאלה הנחשבים לחרדים לדבר השי״ת לפרש כל דבר בכל מיני פשטלך ונהנים לתת דופי באנשים, ה׳ יכפר בעדם כי אולי כונתם לשמים אבל היות שכ״ג שידוע לי שאינו ח״ו מהרוצים ליתן דופי אנו כותב לו. יש לקוות להשי״ת שיתרבו לומדי תורה ועובדי השי״ת אשר בזכותם ירחם ה׳ עמו ויגאלנו גאולת עולמים. ידידו מוקירו כרום ערכו, א.ל. שטיינמאן

– excerpted from footnotes in “The Empty Wagon” by Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro

also this

“The Rosh Yeshiva of Derech HaTorah, went (to R. Shteinman) with a bachur who said he had no taste at all for learning, that he had not been successful in yeshiva, and he wanted to go to the army. “R. Shteinman told him: It is forbidden to go to the army, as they ruin people. The bachur said to him, ‘But today they have a program in the army where you can keep Torah and mitzvos.’ R. Shteinman responded, ‘There is no such thing. People who go to the army always get ruined.’ When the bachur tried to argue with him a bit, R. Shteinman responded forcefully, banged on his table, and said, ‘I guarantee you that if you go to the army, regardless of what program you join, you will return a total goy.’ … The boy recoiled. He gave up his plans and returned to yeshiva.”

– Yated Neeman, Vayigash, 5766, p. 20 as quoted in the book “The Empty Wagon” by Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro

Regarding the rest of your disgusting comments about me, I never shammed any yid from trying to do a mitzvah. The nebach innocent followers of the idol of zionism might be the only remaining “tinukos shenishba” today, where we can try to expose them a little bit to the real life of Torah to enable them to cast of that evil kefira and rejoin klal yisroel.

I know you have no valid argument against the Torah, but please refrain from straw-manning it.

@gadolhadorah
the only source for that nonsense is the person who has dedicated his life to pushing jewish into the avoda zureh called “nachal charedi”

I would be shocked if HaRav Hirsh actually said those things, and if true, G-d forbid, I would be even more shocked if he wouldn’t be put into cherem for such a evil suggestion by the other Gedolim of our generation

the rejection of the ideology called “zionism” is a rejection of the redefintion of judaism from a religion with the single focus being keeping mitzvos into a fake ethnicity or “ethnoreligion” that considers complete kofrim as part of “klal yisroel”. Part of this redefeinition is tied into a fake “nationalistic” identity that gives importance to land and/or government as an important or even key part to that fake Judaism.

It is true that all Gedolim reject the murderous acts of terrorists, whether zionist terrorist or muslim terrorists. It is also true that all Gedolim reject the idea that there is any intrinc value to the zionist state or the zionist army for a Jewish person.

As Rav Yosef shlit”a recently said, if the zionists threaten our yiddishkeit we will simply leave to a different galus.

There is nothin “jewish” about the zionist state. The erliche aguda and erliche shasniks are simply making their best of the evil wars and actions of the erev rav that controls Palestine. That is the only reason any of them vote, as per their own explicit statments. No one wishes the zionist state would countinue as it is the greatest chilul Hashem in Jewish histroy, that a whole “nation” of Jews rose up against Hashem with guns, H”y. And, some are still cheering them on as they sacrifice more jewish boys every day for their evil political wars.

there’s enough kiruv to be done with the amount of kofrim who call themselves “frum”

Anyone reading these comments should know that the zionist agenda, especiall the one pushed by so-called dati-leumi, i specifically trying to destroy real Judaism by redefining Jewish identity into a “nation like all the nations”. Zionism is not Torah. IDF is not Torah. Catholocism isn’t Torah.

Don’t take my word or the word of the honest commentators here. Go and ask our gedolim, look at literally every statment by every gadol, from HaRav Ovadia Yosef, HaRav Elyashiv, Chazon Ish, Chaim Brisker, Steipler Geon, Belzer Rav, Baba Sali, HaRav Shmuel Wosner, Satmar Rebbe, Shomrei Emunim Rebbe, Rav Zonnenfeld, Rav Elchonon Wasserman. Read the holy words of the founders of Agudas Yisroel and the Gedolim that guided it after the evil zionist state was founded in ’48. Read the book “Bayos Hazman” from Harav Reuven Grazovsky, another Aguda leader, in his 1960 book about how strong jews must be in fighting 100% agasint the zionist state.

The Torah is clear that we Jews should have nothing to do with the zionist state nor with its evil army of death. Ask any gadol.

@menachem-shmei
just keep the clear halachos. you are the one trying to wield the tool of achzuryous in your love of reshayim, the opposite of “ahaves yisroel”

it’s crooked hashkafos like what you are pushing, against troas moshe, that destroyed the bais hamikdash and continue to destroy the social fabric of klal yisroel.

it’s people like you who hate neturei karta in the name of “ahavas yisroel”, because you love the kofrim so much you will shecht kosher yidden.

@menachem-shmei
one must be equally careful in both directions. remeber, the bais hamikdash was destroyed from sinas chinam, and there is no greater sinas chinam that loving reshayim and showing your baseless hatred of Hashem

you seem to completly misunderstand that judaism does not support the zionist military enterpise.

with the obvious exceptionn of divergents like Kook, mainstream Torah Jews do not go to the IDF because it is forbidden.

we don’t make calculations, exceptions, or excuses. We have gedolim who have been clears as day that it is better to leave eretz yisroel than join the kofrim in their sins.

Non Jews are not allowed to keep Shabbos.
Moshiach coming depends on Klal Yisroel keeping one (or two) shabbos, not the kofrim and tinukei sh’nishba that are not part of klal yisroel. Of course, we hope they do tshiva, but our work as the Jewish nation is where we are obligated to focus and fix.

@simcha613
it’s a good question, and something dealt with clearly in poskim and sifrei machshava.

In our exile, we are obligated to submit ourselves to the non-Jewish nations around us, honor their laws and pay their taxes. In a similar vein, we are obligated to both show derech eretz in our interactions and humble ourselves in front of those we need to interact with.

That means, practically when interacting with such a doctor, one must give appropriate hakaras hatov and praise as is needed. In your heart and when relating it casually to others, it would be forbidden to praise to the person only one must praise Hashem.

If speaking to a goyishe doctor, you can say “doctor, you saved my life!”. But, you can’t tell your kids that evening “that doctor saved my life!”

If the doctor is an erliche yid, one can praise him only as much as he is keeping torah and mitzvos. So, you can glowingly relate “I even heard him mumbling a ‘yehi rutzon’ as he was putting on his gloves! such yirash shomayim!”, but you can’t tell your kids that evening “that doctor saved my life!”.

@menachem-shmei

How dare you!?

It’s not me, I’m just teaching what the Torah says.

Moshe gave hakaras hatov to inanimate objects, yet you are incapable of thanking a Jews who put themselves into danger to protect you!?

I am capable, but the Torah forbids it. It’s a good question, I could easily speculate answers of the distinction, but I don’t want to add my own thoughts here. For the record, the reason given that even a “tinok sh’nishba” is included in this is that the main concern for praising a rasha is that it will influence you or others to copy their ways.

A) How do you know that they don’t keep mitzvos?

I don’t know, however, the halacha establishes the guidelines, and one must judge according to what they see. This has nothing to do with dinai shamayim which has more resources than basar v’dam.

Do YOU do no aveiros?

Sure, I do a lot, just privately so no one will copy them. Also, a “rasha” that is not part of klal yisroel is NOT anyone who does an avaira, it’s a specific threshold that must be crossed. I haven’t crossed that line, nor come anywhere close to it.

Maybe they are more frum than you?

It could be the imaginary person you are talking about, who is michalel shabbos publicly, is secretly one of the lamed-vavniks. That doesn’t change our obligation to react to their public persona not does it change the halacha.

B) Even if ch”v they are not שומר תורה ומצוות, we can safely assume that the reason for this is that they didn’t have a proper Torah upbringing, they are like Jewish children who were captured by non-Jews, for whom we should be feeling great mercy and compassion.

It doesn’t change this halach, as Rav Chaim Brisker said “nebach an apikorus is still an apikorus”

Do we know how much Hashem values their mitzvos?

A person who doesn’t believe in Hashem or doesn’t believe in the Torah cannot do a mitzvah. Many many seforim express the horrible ramifications of a rasha doing any mitzvah, and how destructive it is for them, for us, and for the world, r”l. The modern heter for engaging rashayim to do mitzvos for kiruv, is off the understanding that if they indeed do tshuva m’ahava, their sins (including the disastrous fake mitzvas they did on the way) will be converted to real mitzvos and reward for them and the world. There has been some disagreement amongst Gedolim regarding kiruv that involves chilonim doing mitzvos while still kofrim.

Rambam writes that we have no idea how much Hashem values a mitzvah. It’s possible for a mitzvah to seem insignificant to us, yet be extremely valuable to Hashem.

He’s not talking about kofrim, obviously, as his psak regarding them is clear in hilchos memarim.

Maybe Hashem values the one act of this uneducated Jew to protect other Jews more than all the mitzvos that you may have done in a manner of מצוות אנשים מלומדה?

why speculate when you can learn Torah?

loving reshayim is another type of “sinas chinam”. we must hate those who hate Hashem.

anyone who doesn’t act like a jew, (i.e. believes the 13 ikkarim and keeps shabbos publicly) one is obligated to hate with utmost contempt, in your heart and externally. this has nothing to do with knowing what is in someone’s heart. this is the clear psak of the chofetz chaim. no issur of lashon hara, rather one is obligated to dan l’kaf chov and speak badly on them. there is no din aravus, there is no issur of ribis, they have a din of a goy.

this is the din of a heretic regardless of them also having the din of a “tinok sh’nishba”. Such a person does not have a portion in the next world.

there is still an obligation of basic chesed to such a heretic, and a lot of the dinim l’maaseh are questioned for various reasons by gedolai poskim. so, we are generally accustomed to take the chumra both ways, maybe they have the “din of a yid” maybe “din of a goy”. However, the hatred towards anyone who acts like a goy is deeply important. Such a person is not part of “klal yisroel”.

is the purpose of this to soften the hearts of jewish hatred towards the zionists and their evil army?

the rashoyim actively doing the aveira of hisgarus ba’umos shouldn’t be praise for the destruction they bring and the danger they put us in

this website is for frum Jews. If we are part of “am yisroel” it is a fundamental belief that moshiach can come any day and that we don’t known when it will happen.

the chofetz chaim is also clear to exclude anyone who is “mechalel shabbos b’farhesia” from ahavas yisroel, even if they live their irreligious life out of general ignorance.

First, the Satmar Rebbe ztz”l said, and many gedolim concurred, that Moshiach would have come if not for the Zionist State. Beyond that, the foundation of teshuva is: if not for my aveiros I wouldn’t be suffering. So, there is certainty substance to the idea that if not for the Zionist State there wouldn’t be antisemitism.
Second, unfortunately many Jews have responded to the recent tragedy with running to join the zionist army and cheer when the zionists attack our enemies with bombs and guns. Honest Yidden will know that the recent events are a call to teshuva tzedakah and tefilla, the only things that can prevent such tragedies.

“Lake, i suppose opposing tzedukim, karaim, shabsai tzvi, reform, conservative, zionism, and every other bad idea was against the Torahs lesson from korach?”

Again, if the ideology is indeed “against the Torah”, you would be correct. However, there has been no authority who has made such claim, so at this point it is “sinas chinam” to publicly deride the ideology or its adherents.

all that this means, it that’s he wasn’t a “tinok sh’nishba”, instead a full fledged mumar