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@Chaim87
The amount of kefiira you spew is shocking.You said:
” if it costs money or land to save Israel”
No, it cost Jewish blood to save Israel, so long as you keep pushing for war. Death is the price paid for having a Zionist state, both hashkafically and historically.You said
” or jews may cvs die”
First, this is straight kefira. Jews only die, chas’v shulem, because of avairas. We dont save Jewish lives by fighting back, rather that only leads to more (chas v’shulem slaughter.
Second, if you believed that your life was really at any risk to be in Israel (it is, because of the aforementioned sins), you would be obligagted to move somewhere else. You would be obligated to start a mass movement our of the Zionist state because Jewish lives are, chas v’shulem, at risk. But, no, your yester hureh has sold you on the absurd contradiction that: you must do avairas to save jewish lives, but the zionist state is needed to save jewish lives, and the zionist state is currently the safest place for Jews, but Jews must all sacrifice their children to keep the zionist politics in power.Meanwhile the whole Jewish would is praying to Hashem for the downfall of the reshoyim and you, lehavdil, pray to your land for more guns.
the Raavah is on the Rambam hilchos tshiva perek zuyin where he mentions ” וכמה גדולים וטובים ממנו ” that mistakenly believed in Divine physicality, chas v’shulem.
regarding the tshiva i saw, it was many years ago… seriously, but don’t take my word for it. i was reading some american journal in halacha from mid 20th century. I don’t recall enough about it to find it again. regardless, none of this conversation hinges on that the question of what is kefira and who is a kofer are note bound one to the other.
I don’t think good looking thin men and women should be punished, rather we should introduce mandatory DEI policies on families. Every family must make shidduchim that represent all vulnerable groups of fatties shorties and poories. Anyone who dares marry based on middos or money or yiras shomayim can simply be canceled. This will also help filter out any chassidim from our communities.
@chaim87
I didn’t “establish this is a Halacha question”, the many many Gedolim that fought against Zionism as a matter of halacha.You can see the sefer “Tikun Olam” on hebrew books, printed well before the holocaust that compiles the many many kol koeres and psak dinim from gedolim – belz, lubavitch, munkatch, ger, chofetz chaim, etc etc.
Beyond that, the specific sefer “Vayoel Moshe” written by one of those Gedolim was a lengthy and explicit halachik sefer that solidified the sugya in the Torah world.
So certainly the halachik “question” has been asked. It has also been answered, but that is beyond the point you are foolishly making.
@yankel-berel
afaik, @hakatan never said what you are claiming he said.
Zionism is very obviously kefira. That doesn’t make every zionist a kofer. This is something @hakatan expresses very clearly above, and it fits very well to at least the shita of the Raaved. All that I added to this point is that I never heard a psak about yayin nesech. I have seen poskin oser, at least lechatlchila, taking a R”Z as witnesses to a kesiba, may we Jews be saved from their wicked ways.my last statement was a response to chaim87, and that is why i address the response to him at the top of that comment. However, I wasn’t per se claiming he is or is not a masis imadiach, rather I was pointing out the obligation specifically to follow what the torah teaches as is well established in our mesorah, as shas and poskim.
to reiterate, Jews are obligated to keep that Torah. Not because it was taught by a specific person, rather because that is what Hashem told us to do at Sinai. Now, there is much to add about the obligation to listen to certain established authorities, most obviously Moshe Rebaini. So too the aforementioned shas and poskim. But, the point I made before and would expect any Jewish person to agree with is that the authority of those authorities is specifically because they are teaching the Torah that G-d gave us at Sinai.
I don’t understand why you wrote “try arguing substantively (you have not done so yet)”. Is the above not the most substantive thing?
Regarding the specific authority of the Satmar Rebbe. There are two parts to that conversation: 1) the authority of the previously established Torah he mentions and 2) the authority of his own established expertise and/or influence. As outlined in SA, a “Gadol” is someone who is greater in expertise and/or influence (students). A “Gadol Hador” would be someone who is the top-tier in his generation as per that mesure. Again, this is not me, this is Shulchan Aruch.
While there is indeed an argument to be made that the Satmar Rebbe has significant expertise and influence and would be considered the “greatest in his generation” by either of those measures. I don’t hinge my argument here on that, if only because it is not a necessary point to the core of the argument. Additionally, by framing this conversation that is really about Judaism vs clear heresy as a conversation about the Satmar Rebbe dishonestly turns it into an argument over shitas or schools or whatever.
The sefer Vayoel Moshe is explicitly a halachik sefer that was written (as per the author) for all of klal yisroel. That being said, if we ignore the authority of the author, we are still obligated to the sources he brings and perhaps obligated in the authors conclusions.
It goes without saying that the Satmar Rebbe didn’t say anything novel ,neither in his sources nor in his conclusions, as there is much documentation of his points in earlier works. However, what he did (attempt to) do was distill the halachik axios and apply them to the post ’48 reality of zionist heresy in the form of a self-procaimed “Jewish” state. In case there was any ambiguity as time went on, the Satmar Rebbe again published a follow up “Al Hageila. val HaTemira” in ’68, strengthening the Torah and halacha in light of the heretics and their violence.
The length of Vayoel Moshe is in part to the authors constant self questioning of his sources and conclusions as he asks many of the common challanges to what was written before him. He spends most of the sefer “second-guessing” each step. You, @zsk, wrote “The R”Z community has provided lengthy…” but I have asked multiple times for any meaningful Torah response to the halachik conlusions of Vayoel Moshe. I have not recieved one from you. To be clear, I would expect such a resource to have read and dealt with the pilpul of Vayoel Moshe both because of the authors lifelong expertise in the subject as well as to produce a meaningful work. What I mean to say is that if someone says “Jews are not bound by the shevios because the non-jews broke theirs”, they would need to at least address the clear multiple responses to that which are in Vayoel Moshe. I suppose, I could compile an incredible pro-heresy (zionist) “sefer” by just compiling all of the Satmar Rebbe’s kashas, and not include his answers, but that would be very dishonest and hollow.
While I don’t learn Torah from kofrim, I am still bound by – lehavdil – the shulchan aruch even if they quote it. So too, if a kofer (chalila they should learn) mentions a Torah source that informs something about the status of zionism or out relationship to it, I would of course be obligated to those Torah sources as per the Jewish mesorah.
Regarding yayin nesech, none of this conversation has to do with “what I consider”. Ask your rabbi what the halach is. As per the Satmar Rebbe and his psak in Vayoel Moshe, I never heard him paskin that R”Z have a din ovdei avoda zureh. But, you would have to ask a Satmar chussid who might know if their rebbe addressed your question.
as i’ve said before: Jews follow the Torah, i don’t know or care what strange religion you follow is.
I didn’t write the Shulchan Aruch nor Vayoel Moshe nor the gemaras and mishnayos that underpin their teaching.Any child can their rav “do I have keep shulchan aruch?”
any masis imadiach can say “well, rabbi, that’s what YOU say! haw haw haw!”
@ard
in support of what you wrote in reply #2368349,
much of the am harutzes in this thread seems to be that many don’t realize that the only thing that gives weight to ANY gadol’s psak is the Torah mesora (i.e. shas and poskim) who he claims his psak is based on. In other words, a Gadol’s psak isn’t binding on klal yisroel, rather the Torah that was given at Sinai is what is binding. A so-called Gadol is someone who is for good reason an established authority in communicating that binding Torah.This is the reason why all Gadolim in their sh”t write lengthy explanations on exactly what sources they are relying on to get to their conclusion, as they themselves know that the only strength their “letter” has is the established Torah mesora that supports it.
The tipshis of some is that they think that because the signature on the bottom of the letter is (HarRav) “Ovadia Yosef” or (HaRav) “Yoel b”hrav Chanaiya Yom Tov Teitelbaum”, they can, chas v’shalom, ignore the Torah they are teaching.
This is also why the Shulcahn Aruch in YD calls a person who “paskins” without being based in Shas and poskim a thug and his “psak” (of course) worthless. And why in the same shulchan aruch it forbids paskining (even with Torah sources) against established halachik norms without also publishing the rational behind the breach of norms. So too (says the SA), one must stay away from rabunim and dayunim who stray from the above path and choose leaders who act in a good honest way in line with our Torah Gedolim.
@square_root
I can’t believe any Jew is calling “70 years old” outdated!
Are you also ignoring the “Al HaGeila VaAl HaTemirah” from the Satmar Rebbe?Can you guess how old the Talmud is?
Can you guess how old the Rambam is?
Can you guess how old the Maharal is?
Are all these too outdated for you?
Please tell me what sefer about zionism is “current” that you approve of?
@yankel-berel
the whole sefer vayoel moshe is meant to answer that question of “a medina without any repercussions. Is that against ikarei emuna?”
and, I can’t wrap my head around your “all he does is quote other” critique of hakatan. I’ll warn you now, that’s also all that the Satmar Rebbe does in Vayoel Moshe.In fact, the whole Torah is simply quoting others and learning what they taught to apply it to our current situation. Other foolish people make up their own ideas and say “prove me wrong!”.
@Chaim87
you haven’t quoted ANY seforim that are authoritative in any way.What do I mean by “authoritative”? I mean a sefer that is used and referenced by other Gedolim as being a source of true Torah. This “peer endorsement” is key to obligating the public, as is spelled out in Shulchan Aruch yoreh deah (kivud rabunim) and choshem mishpat (hilchos dayanim and klalei psak).
What are “Gedolim”? As in Shulchan Aruch hilchos dayanim, a “gadol m’chaveiro” is either a bigger in minyan (talmidim) and/or bigger in wisdom on a specific subject (like for example Rav Vaye shlit’a is the “Gadol” of hilchos tolaim”). A “Gadol HaDor” as is commonly used is simply the person who is at the top of that Torah hierarchy. While there is place for pilpul on who is the “greatest” vs another Torah leader, it is either obvious or easily provable who is at least close to that stature.
What is “Torah”? The “Torah” is not whatever you want it to be, nor is it any action you might glean from the 3rd hand account of what someone else said or did once. The Torah is a specific body of teachings that were given at Sinai to the Jewish Nation and passed down to each generation. The “Torah Sheb’al Peh” that we have successfully passed down was fully collected into the Talmud (Bavli and Yerushalmi) and after the Talmud was completed (“chasimas haShas”), Jews are not allowed to add or detract from that Torah. Every single piece of Torah that obligates us Jews is necessarily in the Talmud, and for this reason every single Gadol in every generation explains his psak as directly connected to something taught in the Talmud. No Gadol ever introduced a new stikel Torah, chas v’shalom, that was not sourced in Shas and not given at Sinai.
So, @Chaim87, I don’t know what religion you follow. But, in Judaism, we are obligated to follow the Torah and not add or subtract from it. You have NOT provided any Torah seforim (writings that connect a psak to the Torah) by any authority (an known Gadol) that ever attempted in any meaningful way to defend Zionism.
If you believe I am straw manning your argument, I would ask you to first define Zionism, it must be a definition that crosses all commonly known Zionist camps (liberal, labor, religious, revisionist, and cultural Zionism, etc) and it must be a definition that narrowly expresses the novelty of the Zionist movement that started in the late 19th century. Then I would ask you to provide specific quotes or references to any authoritative Torah sefer and specify explicitly what point you claim they are making that defend your definition of Zionism.
I don’t believe you are in this conversation in good faith (pun intended) because I don’t believe you have a shita in Torah to rely upon rather you live a made up feel good religion of “trust me bro”, known in the Torah world as “masis i’madiach”. Your response doesn’t have to be long and it should be very easy for anyone to write if they have already learned this from their rabonim.
@arso
no, you are missing the point. it’s not the Gedolim that obligate us or inform us, it is the Torah that they teach. Anyone who teaches something that is NOT sourced in Torah but claims it is still Torah is a liar, a fraud, and certainly not a Gadol.Of course, real Gedolim explain their psak the Torah sources that obligate us following it.
@chaim87
Just to be clear, I asked for sources of your claims. I don’t mean from Kasher, who was well shown to be a fraud in promoting the kefira of Zionism. My request is specifically about these shocking claims of yours:
“3) There are a ton of sefraim pro zionsim some written by previous anti zionsts” – If any of these were written by undisputed Gedolai Torah, please let us know.
“5) R Chtzakel, the steipler, R Aron Lieb all held that one should fight in the army if not learning. There are open letters and teshuvas.”
So, if you are not a liar, these two points should be easily proven.@chaim87
please quote any real sources to your wild claims. please, name the sefer and the page. otherwise you are just spouting false propaganda and making up fake Torah.@Chaim87
I’ll jump in to answer your question: being in the IDF does not automatically make someone holy. Fighting wars against the non-Jews does not make someone holy. Instead, the Gemara says that doing such things causes, G-d forbid, more bloodshed.Sacrificing your son to Molech doesn’t make someone holy, not even the son.
While, I cannot claim to know the din v’cheshbon of any specific person, we are obligated to make presumptions and certainly generalizations based on the external observation, especially when dealing with heretical groups and ideologies. So, anyone who is wearing the modern blue-and-white flag of Amulek in their fight against Hashem in IDF garb is certainly not a “holy fine Jew”.
for anyone reading this. there are many liars about our Torah, and there is no countering opinion against the many Gedolim who spoke against Zionism and their evil State. The Brisker Rav was not a “daas yuchid”, the Steipler Geon was not a “daas yuchid”, the Chazon Ish was not a “daas yuchid”, Rav Elchnon Vaserman was not a “daas yuchid”, the Satmar Rav was not a “daas yuchid”, rav yosef chaim zonnefeld was not a “daas yuchid”, the baba sali was not a “daas yuchid”, the toldos aharon rebbe was not a “daas yuchid”, rav amrom blau was not a “daas yuchid”, the munkatcher rebbe was not a “daas yuchid”, etc etc etc
Bottom line, there is no source for any “shita” that kashers the ideology or the actions of ZIONISM TODAY. This is all clear and obvious to anyone who looks to the Torah and the thousands of seforim that have been published in our long history as the source of Truth the source of our masorah.
There is no leader in klal yisroel who can point to any source in our Torah that is a different shita than the clear psak as laborsly spelled out in the sefer Vayoel Moshe. No one has every published a challenge to that sefer, as it has been well endorsed by every Gadol who has seen it and spoken about it.
@ZSK you seem to be blind to the fact that my (our?) stance on the Torah’s rejection of Zionism is referring to today’s reality not what was. The so called “RZ” are worse than the secular zionists because the rebellion against Hashem is that much more blatant and intentional.
It’s bad enough when a person calls “Reform” a “Jewish” religion, it’s worse when that person wears a kapel.
responding to the original article:
Your first mistake is “Every individual and kehillah is entitled to their views on this matter”, that is not true, that is not Torah, and that is not Yiddishkeit.
Ever Jew is obligated to keep the Torah and the Torah’s rejection of Zionism is a refection of fundamental of Yiddishkeit. By relegating the issue to one of “minhag hamakom” or even worse “opinion” is to completely miss the point of what is so evil about Zionism.
Beyond that, I don’t know who you are referring to that makes this specific battle against Amulek the complete totality of their yiddishkeit. Certainly there are askanim and the like that make this battle their life focus, but I don’t see a broader trend of it being a focus any more than the battle against Reform or Xtiantiy or Sha”tz in his day, yemach shemo.
Responding @square_root ,
what BT yeshiva is so anti zionist?@simcha613 you have a peculiar idea of what “am yisroel” is, and it does not seem to be a Torah one. Not everyone is “achicheh” in Torah.
@Chaim87,
please provide any Torah sources for any of your claims, as of right now it is absurdist hearsay. Of course, I stand my my original claim that if any of these great men would have done anything that would show that they, chas v’shulem, indeed supported zionism, it would be a kasha on them and not on the Torah.
Again, the only thing that we want from these men and the only thing that this conversation is a about is Torah, so you would first need a “shita” in Torah – a published peer reviewed stance – that you can claim they also agree with. Beyond, there is no claim you can make, except to do what you are doing now and call those great men “kofrim”.@ZSK
you would need to define what you mean as a “Gadol”. As per my definition and as per my knowledge:
Was R Elishav zl a gadol? yes
Was R Yosef zl a gadol ? Rav Ovadia – yes
Was R shloma zalman Orbach zl a gadol? yesWas R isser zalman meltzer zl a gadol? yes
Was R tzvi pesach frank zl a gadol? no
Was the punvitcha rav zl a gadol? no
Were the rizyhna rebas like the Aver Yaakov, Shtefenesht (the skullner and ribntza Reba Reba ), Bohush zl a gadol? of those specified- no
Was R shraga fievel mendelovitch who helped so many yeshivas in the USA a gadol? no
Was R Moshe Wolfson zl a gadol? noeach of these would “yes”‘s would of course only be limited to their specific peer reviewed expertise. each of these “no”‘s might be from my own ignorance of a specific peer-reviewed Torah expertise that they might have had.
@Chaim87
You can just admit that you are either wrong or following another religion. You don’t need to type so many empty words.@Chaim87
I’m not sure where you are going with this. I will restate my comment that (I think ) initiated your questioning me about “Gedolim”:I don’t mean to say anyone must write a response, especially if there is no Torah response, and that is exactly the point.
“so many kofrim” does not change the Torah.
If somebody does something that is against any part of the Torah, the kasha is on that person not on the Torah.
This is the crux of my argument and highlights the absurdity of yours.If somebody does something that is against any part of the Torah, especially kefira like explained in Vayoel Moshe, the kasha is on that person not on the Torah.
In an attempt to move the conversation along, I will offer my definition of a “Gadol” and you can provide feedback.
A “Gadol” is shorthand for a “Gadol in Torah”, someone who is an expert in an given subject in Torah such that his published Torah writings (drashas or tshivas) in those fields can be considered authoritative and binding – like a bais din, unless otherwise rejected by a greater authority – like a bais din can only be overruled by a greater bais din.
Any teaching by a Gadol is susceptible to the same “peer review” as anyone else and their status as a “Gadol” is directly an outcome of that peer review. A person whose teachings are neither challenged by other Gadolim or quoted by other Gadolim as authoritative can never be called a “Gadol”, despite an other publicity they may have.
A “Gadol” is only a gadol in the specific area of expertise he is known and positively peer reviewed for. This is in fact very common in the Torah, that someone can be a Gadol in one specific are, and that psak from expertise can be relied upon by large swaths of Am Yisroel, while that same Gadol is considered a complete fool in another area. We Jews don’t generally publicize the “foolish” part of such rabbonim, because of halachos of kavod haTorah and Talmid Chuchum, but if you learn enough Shu”t you come across it rather regularly.@chaim87
“someone who you know was close to hashem and who generally is correct. We definitely don’t look at thier actions as kefira or borderline kefira”
…is every yid who displays himself as fully shomer Torah and Mitzvos, who have a “chezkas kashris”@Chaim87, such a person doesn’t exist in Judaism. There is no person whom we believe make no mistakes, as is well stated in many many seforim and explicit in pasukim of nuvi sheker. this includes the well known line in koheles “there’s no tsadik in the word that doesn’t sin”, and that is true even after the fact. You seem to think there is someone who even before they have acted would demand belief that whatever they do (in the future) is automatically kosher.
Our greatest leaders, every one of the Sheva Ro’im, has made (very well known) mistakes that we explicitly learn about their nature, why it happened, and how to avoid emulating it.
Nothing and no one is beyond the established guidelines of the Torah.@Chaim87
you will need to provide your definition of the term “Gadol” and what the implications of that title might be. That would enable me to answer your questions.@Chaim87
I don’t mean to say anyone must write a response, especially if there is no Torah response, and that is exactly the point.
“so many kofrim” does not change the Torah.
If somebody does something that is against any part of the Torah, the kasha is on that person not on the Torah.
This is the crux of my argument and highlights the absurdity of yours.If somebody does something that is against any part of the Torah, especially kefira like explained in Vayoel Moshe, the kasha is on that person not on the Torah.
btw I sent all 4 parts of my response above.
@Chaim87 what you are describing is not Torah. The whole sugya of a nuvi sheker and masis imadiach is regarding an otherwise gadol in Torah who is an influential posek and fiers tish and wears rebbishe or rosh yeshivishe clothes and also flies a zionist flag or a tzlav around his neck.
If fling the flag of an otherwise heretical movement and they DON’T give the published Torah reasoning according to our mesora then they would certainly also be considered a heretic especially if after being called out by a famous sefer like vayoel moshe and STILL not publish their Torah response than they are almost certainly a kofer.
This is all obvious and is well known as the system of our (not yours) Holy Torah.
Now, if you will respond with “are you calling so-and-so a kofer”, my answer will be “no”. I am not looking into anyone. If someone flew a zionist flag, it’s not my business to figure out if he ever explained himself. If he did, good. If he didn’t he may, at best, be an unintentional “madiach” and/or kofer.
None of this changes the Torah.I wlll attempt to submit my answer in @ZSK in 4 parts.
(Part 1/4)
1) masis is someone who pushes an individual towards kefirah or avoda zureh, madiach is someone who does that to a single group. “yimach shemo” is the common language used to fulfil the concept of “shaim rashuyim yirkav” when mentioning certain type of evil people, especially those who might be, G-d forbid, influential in turning the hearts of Jews against Hashen.I must acknowledge thanks to the mods for at least publishing my calling out their strong editorialization…
mods continue to not publish my Torah-only response. i would sure like to know why.
@Chaim87 . as I have mentioned. I have not seen any substantive Torah defense of either Kook, Yashkeh, or Zionism, and this is all obvious.
@ZSK I’m not sure what information toy are missing that you need me to provide. Kook was masis i’madiach to promote blatent kafira in the Torah. As mentioned above, this is discussed at length by contempotaries of Kook, notably the aforementioned essay by Rav Yosef Yedid, where he specifically addressed the kefira in Kook published heretical books. Those books were put into cherem for this reason during kook’s putrid life.
Like Yashkeh or Sha”tz, Kook was a big talmid chuchem who earned the epithet “yimach shemo”. After kook’s death and the full disaster of his heresy made inroads into the Jewish world, Hashem yerachem, Gedolim like the Satmar Rebbe doubled down on the obligation for Jews to distance ourselves from him and his students.
For those who are pulled after Zionism and yearn to sacrifice your sons to die for its glory, I can only ask you to stop calling your new religion Judaism.
@zsk is there any forum to have an open conversation?
Again, you claim a shita in Torah that isn’t there.
As you mentioned, working with the Conservatives doesn’t per se make one a certain kofer, so too working with Tzionim doesn’t per se make you a kofer. That doesn’t mean you support them! And if you, @Chaim87, insist that working with kofrim (like you claim about that evil masis imadiach Sol Liberman) makes one also a kofer, so that is how you are learning out the situation with any of the names you’ve mentioned.
The point, and I’m sure @Chaim87 will miss it but other readers won’t, is that we have already clear psak from accepted Gedolim that Zionism is kefira. Additionally, there is no counter psak. So, if you demand to box in any Ruv into being a advocate for that kefira, you are simply pasuling him.
You are puting the cart before the horse if you claim otherwise: Our Torah guides us and defines who is a Gadol in Torah. You don’t say a someone can be a Gadol if he rejects the Torah. And, again, there is no shita in Torah that kashers the trafine kefira of zionism, so it’s one or the other.@Chaim87 you continue to make a bizuyon of the Torah. I continue to ask you: who and who are these people?
“stature” is not something to be taken lightly, and it is something obvious.
When influential Jewish leaders, who we might call gedolim, make a move who do they turn to for Torah guidance, whose teachings do they consider?This is not complicated.
Does the Lubavitcher Rebbe zatzal quote R Techetel or R Friedman and struggle feel obligate to consider their stance, or rather does he turn to the Rambam and Rav Kotler? The answer is the later.
Did Rav Elyashiv zatzal consider the reactions of the Shevet Halevi or Rav Chaim in giving psak? Did the Shevet HaLevi consider the Satmar Rav reactions? Did the Satmar Rebbe consider the teachings of the Munkatcher Rebbe? All these are answered “yes”, because these were all people of stature.
Being a Gadol in Torah, someone whose you can claim defined a “shita” in Torah, is a well defined “boys club” of our leaders who peer review each other. Anyone can join if they can master the Torah and yiras shamayim required and seek out that peer review.
And, beyond that specific question, if there would, chas v’shalom, be a Gadol who tried to defend the kefira of zionism and of @Chaim87, he will still be called out for that clear lie and disgrace of our Torah and be put in cherem. The Torah is a very real and very clear body of thought. Acting like “anything goes” because “there’s two sides” is a fraudulent evil and heresy.
When there are indeed “two sides” to a sugya, it is not hard at all to point to soild sources and defenders of both sides.
@Chaim87 and @always_ask_questions
I’m looking for a mehalech in Torah, and I am asking sincerely.
When chaim points to “how they acted” and tries to prove they supported what is clear kefira, I cannot take it seriously.
I am happy chaim at least attempted to provide a source, but even that is empty. This is a sefer that is not clear it’s contents, is not available or mainstream, and does not on the surface seem to be a serious Torah work that explains a “shita”.
Furthermore, the author is not someone of stature that demand anyone taking him seriously. Who acknowledged his supposed zionist shita? who argued with it? What is the the explanation of his understanding? Did he give (or even have the ability to give) psak? Was he put into cherem like kook, or was his stance not full of kefira, and if so how was it distinct?
I’m sincerely looking for a way to understand, but I sense chaim’s whole stance is both completely dishonest and a mockery of Torah.
None of the above questions are small, and their answers should (if Chaim was presenting an honest answer) be readily apparent in the Torah world.
Instead, chaim is grasping at any straw he can find, and then saying “see, great men in Israel also worshiped Baal! There is nothing wrong with this path! join the church of zionism! join the army of death!”Chaim87. i know you will continue to fail as you deny the emes.
If there is a Torah shita that supports zionist kefira (as if), please point to any of these rabbunim’s published Torah works. All you have is meaningless hearsay that you leverage to promote a false Torah against clear published psak from Gedolim.You are claiming a fraudulent shita shat doesn’t exist.
what fool believes antisemitism is in the hands of the non-jews?
this is kefira 101.
The Jewish People believe in schar v’onesh@Chaim87 you keep promoting kefira, claiming it is kosher with NO SOURCE. please explain your claimed “rizyner” Torah that defends the kefira called “Zionism”. Please send the source for this nonsense.
@always_ask_questions, with due respect, nothing you wrote is relevant to the conversation. There simple isn’t a “Zionist” shita in Torah, and if there is please point me to it. Your “nuance” can be used to defend any kefira like Reform, and I would like you to consider how there is any difference between your attempt to validate Zionism vs validating Reform or Catholicism.@Chaim87
I can point to numerous published Torah works from well before Zionism that reject a Jewish state, regardless of it keeping other parts of the Torah.
The masora is so strong and clear, from Talmud, Midrashim, to Rambam Ramban, Maharal, Aruch Hashulchan, to modern day gedolim like the Satmar Rebbe, Brsker Rav, Chazon Ish.
One of the Aguda Founders that architected the way they work with the zionist medina wrote a whole sefer, Biyos Hazman, which outlines at lenght the issur of having a state and that hi biggest concern in their new path is that the frim public will misunderstand what Aguda is doing and thing that the mdeina is OK.If you want any published sources from the above, I can provide them as clearly forbidding a zionist state.
On the other side, I ask you to please provide me any ANY Torah defense of the zionist state, published by any of Gadolim you mentioned. You will not find it because it is clear kefira in the Torah.
Please show me any source, without reverting to hearsay and fabricated stories. If anyone, even a gadol in Torah, would G-d forbid endorse Jews having a state, they would have been immediately put in cherem like kook’s writing were for this reason. For this reason, I know you will not find any source. May be you should publish the first one and either be ignored as a nobody or be put in cherem as a masis imadiach, or worse maybe a “navi sheker” like kook shr”y.
@always_ask_questions while I can’t speak for @HaKatan , it seems the core of his argument is that you can’t escape kefira and try to kasher it with hearsay from Gedolim.
No Gadol has ever published a defense of the kefira of Kook shr”y.
So, you can try to figure out all the lose ends, but the starting point is the Torah’s clear rejection of zionism and their state.
This is not a Satmar idea or Brisker idea or Aguda idea or Neturei Karta idea or Chofetz Chaim idea or Munkatzher idea or Belzer idea.
This is the ABCs of Torah, and the starting point of a conversation about Kook or Herzl yimach shemo or the evil conscription army of the russians or the zionists or whatever evil group jumps up to destroy yiddishkeit.if you don’t care what people will say about your publicized opinions, why publicize them?
can you imagine some Jewish person thinking an election outcome is something they should consider important? can you imagine the crookedness of validating that kefira?
@chaim87
Rav Shteinaman zatzal was adamant about the evils of the IDF and specifically “Nachal Chareidi”.Do you care about the truth? Do you care about Rav Shteinaman really said, or are you just looking for any way to support your idol and send your children off to die for it?
Rav Shteinaman zatzal said that his only support for Nachal Charedi was for those evil bucherim who were already no longer part of klal yisroel, mechalile shabbos b’farhesia, and his support was simply in order to rescue out Jewish neighborhoods from their bad influence with no better alternative:
Don Segal sent a letter to R. Aharon Leib Shteinman inquiring about rumors that he supported Nachal Chareidi.
In response, R. Shteinman wrote back as follows:
לכ׳ ידידי הגאון והצדיק ר׳ דן סגל הי״ו
נעימות בימינו נצח.היות ששמע קול גדול ולא יסף כאילו אני תומך בענין נחל חרדי, שבחורים שהם חלשים בלמוד התורה או ביראת שמים טוב להם להיות שם וכמובן שדבר זה לא עולה על הדעת כלל. מה שהי׳ מדובר בהתחלה הוא שבחורים שמחללי שבת ועוברים על עוד חייבי כריתות ממש ואביו רוצה להצילו ולהציל את הרחוב מלהזיקם שאין לנו כח למענו, אבל ודאי זה עון לא יכופר אם שמסיר או שמשתדל באיזה צורה שהיא וגורם למי שאינו מחלל שבת ועוד חייבי כריתות להמצא שם.
ואני נמנע מלהשיב בדרך כלל בענין זה כי דרך חלק מאנשים מאלה הנחשבים לחרדים לדבר השי״ת לפרש כל דבר בכל מיני פשטלך ונהנים לתת דופי באנשים, ה׳ יכפר בעדם כי אולי כונתם לשמים אבל היות שכ״ג שידוע לי שאינו ח״ו מהרוצים ליתן דופי אנו כותב לו. יש לקוות להשי״ת שיתרבו לומדי תורה ועובדי השי״ת אשר בזכותם ירחם ה׳ עמו ויגאלנו גאולת עולמים. ידידו מוקירו כרום ערכו, א.ל. שטיינמאן
– excerpted from footnotes in “The Empty Wagon” by Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro
also this
“The Rosh Yeshiva of Derech HaTorah, went (to R. Shteinman) with a bachur who said he had no taste at all for learning, that he had not been successful in yeshiva, and he wanted to go to the army. “R. Shteinman told him: It is forbidden to go to the army, as they ruin people. The bachur said to him, ‘But today they have a program in the army where you can keep Torah and mitzvos.’ R. Shteinman responded, ‘There is no such thing. People who go to the army always get ruined.’ When the bachur tried to argue with him a bit, R. Shteinman responded forcefully, banged on his table, and said, ‘I guarantee you that if you go to the army, regardless of what program you join, you will return a total goy.’ … The boy recoiled. He gave up his plans and returned to yeshiva.”
– Yated Neeman, Vayigash, 5766, p. 20 as quoted in the book “The Empty Wagon” by Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro
Regarding the rest of your disgusting comments about me, I never shammed any yid from trying to do a mitzvah. The nebach innocent followers of the idol of zionism might be the only remaining “tinukos shenishba” today, where we can try to expose them a little bit to the real life of Torah to enable them to cast of that evil kefira and rejoin klal yisroel.
I know you have no valid argument against the Torah, but please refrain from straw-manning it.
Kook was a gadol before he went off the derech.
You can see the handwritten letter online by Rav Elchonon Wasserman ztz”l who called him a “rushe gumir”.
You might be correct that the chofetz chaim might have been able to arouse kook to do tshiva and bring moshiach.
everything else you have is, as least in the way you frame it, complete garbage and masis umadiach you push the yidden away from Torah and towards the false moshiach of zionism. You distort the actions of Gedolim and promote lies.If I am wrong, point to any published work by any Gadol that goes against anything I have written. (And, I don’t mean hearsay stories by balei batim)
you are the same as a shatz”nik.