Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
old man: you don’t know me. you don’t know why i do what i do and you dont know why i feel what i feel. dont even bother pretending. to me the issue is not an exercise in lamdus…i actually care and i was making a point.
i see no reason why the chiyuv to be mekarev isn’t a kal v’chomer of Lo Saamod Al Dam Reecha. we see countless times how the neshama is more important than the guf in this regard. the most prominent example would me dying al kiddush hashem. depending on the circumstance on may even be obligated to die for something that isnt yeharag v’al ya’avor. we take this stuff seriously because the neshama is of paramount importance.
therefore…it follows…that if you would not stand idly by and watch someone get run over by a car if you could have done something…then surely you should be mekarev a yid who is slipping or has slipped or has never known better or whatever the situation is.
that being said one is under no obligation to kill themselves or risk their life to save another. so if one feels that one isnt up to kiruv becuase it may damage their neshama in some way then by all means dont. but if you dont because you cant be bothered…then i see no reason why Lo Saamod Al Dam Reecha doesnt apply.
who said its negative? chafetz chaim brainwashes too and i approve of that
someone asked what the definition of chillul hashem was in another thread. in a word: sikrikim
The Spire by Richard North Patterson. that book was so good that i couldnt read anything else that day after finishing it.
let me guess…your name is batsheva
moving on.
in order to truly convince someone of something you need to believe it yourself. otherwise the person youre trying to convince could see right through you if they have half a brain. honesty works too. most people don;t expect it…so its a very effective tool in persuasion.
THEREFORE if you want to be mekarev people…which is essentially convincing and persuading them that what you believe is right and what they currently believe is wrong…you need to be absolutely certain of what youre saying. you need to believe it without any scintilla of doubt. soliek if you have emuna issues then get those sorted before you start telling people to believe what you do. if you dont know what you believe…how should they.
as far as averos go…in my opinion the ikkar is emuna and hashkafah. LET ME EXPLAIN BEFORE YOU JUMP DOWN MY THROAT. most people who sin so it l’teavon. they like watching movies…they cant be bothered to go to shul…they enjoy lashon hara…etc. its not because of any lack of emuna, proper hashkafa or rebellion. its simply l’teavon. therefore if a person has a very strong hashkafah and very strong foundations in emuna then even though they may be doing certain averos…they know that what tehy are doing is wrong and exactly why its wrong and therefore they WILL change because they have the capacity to. people can only live with cognitive dissonance for so long.
so why do people sin? because no one is perfect and the yetzer hara tells us to give in to teh guf…and we do…but just because someone does certain averos does not meaen that they are not qualified for kiruv.
several definitions. not keeping shabbos because a kid is rebelling can be a mumar lehachis. not keeping shabbos because he doesnt see the point and cant be bothered is a mumar lteavon. 2 very different problems. someone who keeps shabbos however has no feeling for yahadus and whose emuna is seriously lacking is another form of OTD because he has no reason to be frum at all (orthoprax…but not in quite the same way). then you have your kids who were just poorly influenced.
so classifying OTD, you see, is very difficult because to lump every single one of thsoe groups listed and teh countless other groups into one broad term of OTD would be a terrible misrepresentation of exactly what is going on with those kids.
chiullul shabbos, also, is a terrible way of classifying it because laav davka. suppose he keeps shabbos because hes on display but eats treif…bottom line you cant classify OTD. you know it when you see it…and when you do you spend time with the person, figure out their reasons, and do what you can to help them.
i know everyone is so used to classifying everything for expediency…but with some things its just wrong. this is one of them.
brainwashing
people who post on yeshiva world instead of learning…owait…*runs away*
“Your advice in a nutshell is it is better for older girls to settle into lifetime of singlehood.”
my uncle married at the age of 39 to a wonderful woman who was 35. theyve been married for around 8 or 9 years very happily.
so 4 years ago i got an email from a Nigerian prince who wanted to give me 2 million dollars to store in my account because he was on the run and didn’t want his assets seized. i was promised a cut after he collected it and all i had to do was provide some personal and banking information. unfortunately i was unable to assist him.
the scam is by now so well known that theyve stopped trying. however i got a very funny similar email 2 weeks ago 😀
(ICPC NIGERIA (Anti-Fraud Unit)
we fight against fraud, funds delay and impersonation.
Head Office: Plot 802, Constitution Avenue
Zone A9 Central Area P. M.B 535, Garki Abuja
Attn: Dear Beneficiary
LETTER OF COMPENSATION/SETTLEMENT.
This letter will definitely be amazing to you because of it?s a realistic
value.
Sorry for the inconveniences that was rendered to you in your line of
Inheritance Payment transaction with some impersonators some while ago.
I know that this letter will hit you by surprise, but firstly I will
like to introduce myself; I am (Hon.Emmanuel Ayoola Olayinka) the Legal chairman of
“ICPC”, (Nigeria’s Anti-Fraud Unit).
On the 1st of October 2000, the President of The Federal Republic of
Nigeria (Chief Olusegun Obasanjo) introduced a Commission named the
“ICPC”, (Nigeria’s Anti-Fraud Unit) which is duly registered under the
United Nations (U.N.O). This particular Commission was initiated to detect
fraud/funds delay/impersonation of Government Officials. Secondly, we
are mandated by the US Government to settle foreign debts/fraud
victims/Un-paid beneficiaries to satisfactory in other to maintain peace in the
world at large and also to create a good relationship with the
international bodies.
Presently, we are being paid by the American government in other to
avert beneficiary funds delays/fraud here in Nigeria.
So far, we have settled the likes of (Mrs. Debbie Hargrove, Mr. Michael
Wagner etc).
You are being contacted by this office today dated (27TH, Sept,2011) because your Case File (A) is the very first File on our Settlement
Files Cabinet. From our intelligent investigations and Probing processes
we discovered that you are a victim of fraud/funds delay.
The “ICPC”, is faithfully under my governance as the Legal Chairman of
the great Commission and to this Authority I took an oath of allegiance
to settle all fraud victims peacefully.
This Memorandum is to notify you that you will be settled by the
Nigerian Government from our initial Deposit Account with HSBC Bank Plc
London-Uk. You will be settled with the actual amount which you lost in your
previous transaction, including your Inheritance Funds.
Your settlement will be actualized within 3working days after your
response to this Official Letter.
For further clarifications/investigation kindly send the below
information to us immediately:
1. Your residential address.
2. Mobile and fax number (for regular official contact).
3. Your inheritance funds value.
4. Amount, which you have lost previously.
This above-mentioned information will officially enable us to carry
out our verification processes and after that your compensation
sum/Inheritance Funds will be Electronically wired into your designated Bank
account.
Your immediate compliance to this will expedite actions on your Payment
because here in this office, we have a lot of listed victims to be
settled.
We await your urgent response.
Officially Signed,
Hon. Emmanuel Ayoola Olayinka.
Chairman ICPC Nigeria
i missed the part where you yourself have questions. the reason thats dangerous is because your ward can end up turning you and thats not ideal in the kiruv business. brush up on your hashkafa and emuna…for your sake as well as your ward.
no one is perfect. if only perfect people did kiruv we wouldnt get very far. sometimes it takes someone who is making a similar journey to make a potential baal teshuva feel comfortable and inspired. also the more you learn about something, and the more you talk about something the more likely it is that you will adhere to it yourself. the very fact that you posted this question shows that youre taking what you’ve been saying to heart for yourself. i wouldnt call that hypocritical.
only november. script frenzy is in april though if youre interested in writing a play or the like…its a 100 page play in a month. look into it 🙂
well during november i do NaNoWriMo so those are the meetings i attend. the only one that has jews are the tursday night park slope starbucks meetings. you usually get 3-5 frum jews there. they last from around 6 PM to 10:30 PM. its a few blocks from the F train.
my novels are terrible 😛 truly terrible. and thats not me being bashful…novels arent my thing. this november’s novel however IS seeing as its somewhat autobiographical…which means that im gonna miss interacting with new characters but the book will be more passionate. hopefully the narrative will be more colorful, plentiful and descriptive.
the other jews there, like you, dont necessarily write for jews. nothing “non kosher” as it were, just not yair weinstock. (i understood what you meant BTW)
i used to be ashamed (es chatai ani mazkir hayom) of showing stuff i had written for jews to non jews…but im way over that. now i show everything i write to anyone who is interested, jewish or non jewish. some people there share their writin…others, as is common, keep it very secret. you know how it is.
the meetings are really a lot of fun. we talk about our characters, our plots…we discuss plot options and twists and ideas and stuffness. its great 🙂
look at middlepath here… espousing the apologetics of apology…
the protocols of the elders of zion?
yeah i know what you meant…i just figured i would mention how the novel writing process works 😛 how the characters are rebellious little buggers 😛 these writing meetings i go to…everyone always talks about how they have no idea what their characters will do next and i love it because its so true 😀 😀 😀
and about dialogue vs narrative…!!! INORITE?!
im a professional suicide bomber.
someone said something earlier about the authour controlling the novel…i dont find that to be true. when i write a story i have absolutely no idea whats gonna happen next. the characters “tell me” what they want to do and i sort of just enable them to do what they want. plots write themselves…i feel like a mere conduit for the expression of the story. i have very little control over what i write and i find that when i try to exercise control over my characters they rebel and the story just flops.
as far as perfection goes…writing cant be forced. it needs to be OF you. it needs to be an absolute expression of what you are feeling at the moment. your passion. your ideals. your excitement. grammar be darned! whatever you feel, just vomit it all down on paper or Word or whatever youre writing with. you can sort it all out later. NEVER waste time on grammar when youre writing the original manuscript. the most important thing is to let your story be written; editing comes afterward. remember…the story is the iddur, the grammar is the taful. always edit later.
as for being ashamed of showing other people your work…i understand. it took me a while until i felt comfortable showing rough drafts to my friends but now im fine with it. i even ask them for help proofreading, and offering opinions about what ive written. i understand why youre uncomfortable. writers pour themselves…every ounce of themselves into their writing and its hard to open that up to others unless you feel its perfect. just find someone you trust implicitly and share with them. it will get easier to share with others.
well you arent a kid…lol
although you are right about no one in bensonhurst having smartphones…
NaNoWriMo…im jussayin…
ok that does it. gumball…give it up. youre some 30 year old bachur from bensonhurst.
android
</thread>
cant be bothered
bpt…you left. LEFT. i daven there now. now i ask you…who is more qualified to decide the future of the shul that I DAVEN IN?
i dont care how many years ago you davened there, i dont care how many friends you lost…quit dwelling in the past. it WAS your shul. previously. and im sorry you feel that BE didnt represent the kind of judaism you believe in, but by your admission you left a while ago. so you really have no idea what kind of jews daven there now. i daven there now, my friends daven there now. families that i know who are extremely sincere daven there. baalei teshuva daven there. families and people taken in by the shul daven there. people who have gotten married through the shul daven there. people who now learn more than they ever have in their lives daven there.
with all due respect you know nothing of the shul you left. so please…dont claim you do.
davening in a shul once a year hardly gives you the authority to judge the validity of our existence.
im not going to take a side here. all i WILL say is that i used to write exclusively for goyim. since i got one article (and only one) published in Ami i’ve written exclusively for yidden whether it gets published or not and i must say…it feels a lot better. i feel a lot better about everything i write and my work has actually improved greatly.
a yid can never make a chilul hashem while doing the ratzon hashem.
idk…either way its not that simple because remember we ARE a member of YI and idk if unilateral decisions like that can be made…they have money invested in the shul soliekyea…by the way the only reason to landmark would be to prevent alteration or demolition, neither of which are even on the table at the moment becuase there is no way the shul is selling. please see my posts above.
they can be. it depends what the city wants to do with it. if you landmark a shul you lose control over it and thats the point. whatever happens to it…policy…congregation…affiliation…has to be fought over with the city. it would be a terrible situation.
by the way you people are assuming that its one or the other. torn down or us. its not like that. i find it WILDLY offensive that everyone assumes that the congregation currently in charge of the building is dead. i resent that assumption and im telling you its wrong. i can assure you that if it came to the point where such a decision was necessary the building would either be landmarked, sold, or rented to someone who would maintain it as it is. but we are nowhere near that point. so please…stop making that hurtful and offensive assumption.
first of all if all youre worried about are the aesthetics then your priorities are misplaced. there is a congregation there now and you are ALL showing callous disregard for us. we are well aware of where we stand and if the time comes to make a decision demolition vs selling or landmarking then obviously the decision would one of the latter. but we are nowhere near that point and i resen tthe implication.
as for why we dont apply for landmark status yet…because then we lose control of the shul. forget it being about chassidish vs the current crowd…it could become orthodox vs reform or worse. landmarks are open to tourists and it would be a terrible bizayon to the shul if it were simply a tourist spot with tefillos there essentially for show.
the shul is NOT dead. not even close. dont worry…Young Israel beth El of Boro Park will be open and standing for many many more years to come.
“soliek, will you be selling tickets to the demolition show, ch”v????? People stood around and watched in horror the demolition of Emanuel. But it was TOO LATE.”
“also you people do realize that comparing YIBE to emanuel is unfair. emanuel was conservative whereas YIBE has always been is and always will be orthodox…emanuel had been closed for many years because it was conservative so to make the comparison is grossly unfair.”
need i say more?
israeli politics are open to the public becfause all necessary information is readily available. a shul is different. if you dont know the people you cant have an opinion. the new york times dowsnt regularly post status reports about YIBE on its website so you don tknow whats going on there. i can tell you that what you think you know is wrong. and the reason why you dont know is because you have no source. it doesnt get posted anywehere, its not reported, and you dont daven there. so comparing israel to YIBE is also invalid.
also you people do realize that comparing YIBE to emanuel is unfair. emanuel was conservative whereas YIBE has always been is and always will be orthodox…emanuel had been closed for many years because it was conservative so to make the comparison is grossly unfair.
you have my permission to be passionate just dont be annoying. my question was what your real agenda is. you obviously dont daven there very often so it couldnt possibly be for the shuls sake so what is your real agenda?
Why are you typing in bold…and you didn’t answer my question.
this thread is really beginning to annoy me.
unless you daven at beth el either daily or at the very least weekly dont claim to understand the shul. i dont care if you were davening there when koussevitzky was in diapers. unless you daven there regularly now please dont pretend that you understand the shul.
secondly…anonymous. your agenda is not leshem shamayim…what is it.
thirdly. you wanna know why boro park mentch and i are so annoyed by your collective suggestions? because you think we want them. you think it would benefit the shul. people who dont daven at the shul, and people who dont understand the shul are jumping at the opportunity to provide unwanted advice. so the response of course would be “well if it were my shul and it were floundering i would LOVE these ideas and all teh advice!” well guess what. so far 3 members of the shul (mexipal BPM and myself…by the way did i mention that mexipal and i are both young? idk about BPM)have stated their disinterest in your gratuitous advice.
fourth and final. if you pop in once a month to hear chazzan miller on shabbos mevarchim, or you pop in for the carlebach concert (which is coming up november 18th…GET TICKETS!) or you pop in occasionally to show your kids how beautiful the building…dont pretend to understand the membership at the shul. you cant. really…you dont know all the families that daven here you dont know all the young people who daven here…in fact you dont know anyone who davens here. so please…stop. the shul looks empty because it can hold 2000 people but were it downsized to your average boro park shteeble youd think it quite full. so stop with the patronizing advice. we arent interested.
i was at my rav’s house last week and we were discussing hashkafah and kiruv and he told me that a lot of questions and rebellion against yahadus comes from trouble in a person’s life. id say that was spot on here. your priority, if you want her to eve become frum, should be to help her out of her current situation and find her a more stable living environment. someone who is under that much pressure and stress and has such a messed up life doesnt particularly care (at least on the surface…youre right about her wanting to be frum because she keeps coming back) about being frum because her priorities are different from yours. as far as shes concerned “self reservation” is all that matters. once you remove her from her current situation her priorities will shift back to what she really wants.
as far as her being resentful that youre prying in her personal life and meddling about…if you manage to arrange something that is in her best interest then she wont mind. go for it. its your best shot
see…its funny cuz people who dont daven there think they understand the place…
well that wouldnt be very nice now would it
btw thats what shomrei emuna was thinking of doing. they didnt because it would have been disgusting
thats lovely…but only if it comes from a decision by the board and the members. the chassidim can come and daven there and they may be in the majority but the minhagim and derech of teh shul will remain the same unless its decided by the members and the board that they want to change. whatever happens in the future happens…
make a new thread for that
ok. heres the deal. there are a few simple rules to debate.
1) you debate to exchange ideas. the win/lose factor is incidental. a debate is not an argument. it is simply the exchange of opposing ideas in a respectful manner.
2) you don’t debate to change another person. if you’re assuming that winning a debate will result in the other party immediately changing their mind on their views…you’ve already lost.
3) debate is impersonal. you must remain dispassionate and keep your distance while debating. never let the topic of the debate or the content get personal. doesnt matter what the topic is. if you let a debate get personal it becomes an argument not a debate and you lose your focus. taking a debate personally is an automatic loss.
4) you are not talking AT each other you are talking TO each other. therefore, you need to grant certain terms before teh debate begins so that you are both on the same page. for example (and this by the way is the BEST example) if you have an atheist and an orthodox jew on the point of debating bechira…the atheist must grant, for the sake of debate, that god exists. otherwise you wind up somewhere halfway through the debate with something along the lines of “oh well your point is invalid because god doesnt exist” which terminates the debate right there because that is a pointless debate. if you are unwilling to grant certain terms to set the stage of the debate…then dont debate.
5) you need to understand your opponents position. i debate many people about many things and one thing that always serves my well is my ability to fully understand their position before i open my mouth. this is important because A) you need to understand what you are answering before you answer otherwise it is an argument not a debate and B) you need to be able to anticipate any possible argument that your opponent uses. if you refuse to even understand your opponent’s position then dont bother debating. youve already lost.
so how does this apply here? well its problematic. for example goyish music (please dont turn this thread into a specific debate im just usoing this as an example) what invariably happens is something along the lines of
A: goyish music should be allowed…i see no problems with it whos with me!
B: but there is so much znus and disgusting language and stuff in those songs
A: but this song over here is perfectly clean. no romance no sex no violence no swearing…whats teh problem
and right there is where the thread should end becuase if you bring an isolated sample from a larger sample to the table…then teh debate becomes about nitpicking and that’s never acceptable. what ends up happening is a 10 page argument where A and B essentially come to the conclusion that they basically agree…and everyone;s time was wasted. meanwhile youve had name calling…lashon hara…etc.
anyway…thats how its done. take it or leave it…but thats why we have no intellectual debate here.
Boro Park Mensch: lol youre complaining about shmini atzeres maariv?! one day later we had 50 lubavitchers there to make a ruckus 😛
and i agree with everything you said. what do you think of Ms Critique’s idea of an open forum to suggest ideas? i know the current situation with the board and all that but once that gets sorted i think it might be a good idea if the rav and board held an open forum to hear ideas from mispallelim. the shul has a lot of board meetings but ive never been invited to a member’s meeting (even though i am a member as well) lol soliek maybe it wouldnt be such a bad idea.
also what kilobear said was spot on. if you want to start that type of shul…go ahead. but there is no need to suggest that we give up our beautiful makom torah utefillah!
OH! and if you happen to be a board member…get them talking about a website. i know the doctor choir guy (the guy who davened simchas torah mussaf) used to do that…but the shul really needs a website up and running
emanuel and bethel are NOT landmarks
MS. Critique your idea is not a bad one and ill pass it on to the rav. that would be an interesting meeting to attend. i dont think its been done before.
when rav pollak left shomrei emuna and rav cohen took over, for a few weeks they were thinking of forcing the demographic to change. one of teh gabbaim was even considering paying yeshiva bochurim to daven there just to drive in a new crowd. they were going to remove the pews and replace them with tables and chairs. TBH i was disgusted with the idea as were quite a few others and almost all the members of the shul. its a TINY minyan, upstairs in shomrei emuna but it fills a niche that would not be filled if it was a shool for bachurim and im glad that that particular plan fell through.
in my opinion the only way to change the dem,mographic of a shul is if the members agree or if the shul sells. it cant be something forced upon them. how is that right? how is it right that a shul just throws out everything its mispallelim are used to and, in effect, “sells out” just to get more numbers? its so wrong! when shomrei was considering it i was actually considering davening there if i would get paid….but now that i think about it it would have been a disgusting arrangement.
“but what do you predict the membership will look and feel like in ten to fifteen years, if ch”v Moshiach hasnt arrived by then?”
whatever hashem decides