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tbh i was a little shocked too
the problem is twofold and each reason is dependent on the other. people dont want to believe that evil exists in this world because evil is a terrible thing to ponder; the idea that someone can murder six million people, or fly planes into buildings, or…rape a child…we dont want to believe it possible. but theres a cognitive dissonance where that is concerned because evil stares us in the face daily and challenges us, daring us to acknowledge and fight it; so what do we do?
so we explain evil away. we say that the victims of the holocaust died because someone spoke in shul. we say that leiby kletzky died because teenagers are being oiver negia, we say that kids and parents are lying when they call rape on a rebbi or a rav or a neighbor. and the, after discrediting the victims of these heinous crimes, we stigmatize it–we say that there is something wrong with the victim, that they either deserved it, or had it coming, or are now unclean and unfit for humanity because they suffered.
and then we throw them out of our communities because this just doesnt happen, “Not In My BackYard.” and we become the very evil from which we flee, constantly looking our shoulders with dread, with fear, with absolute terror, not for the actual evil, but for those who remind us of that evil–the victims of that evil.
and then somthing ironic happens. we run so far from the wrong thing, the thing that is not itself chasing us, that when we finally settle down, secure in our distance from that which we fear, we are actually closer to the very evil we think we have fled. and then it happens to us.
“Also, aries, can you help me understand (because I’ve handled it differently so I really am wanting to know, not arguing) why the families who allow themselves to be silenced, or why the advocates who are silenced are different than the big wigs who close their eyes.”
“In my experiences, the ones who didn’t report did so because it was their choice, not blackmail”
the title of my book about social stigma is called blackmail. stigma is social blackmail. dont say anything about your experiences or you will be shunned and ostracized, your children will not be able to find shidduchim, and you will forever remain unemployed. if thats not blackmail…i dont know what is. silence in exchange for a life that is no life at all. i dont like it…but i understand it. and yes…it IS blackmail in every sense of the word.
“How about a boy wondering if he should make a brocha before being forced to do something?”
i actually just had a minor panic attack in my office after reading that
mytake: because many of us know victims of sexual abuse
HEY! KFB! remember those questions i asked a few times?
1) how much did the rav hamachshir want
2) whats the going rate
maybe you wanna try answering those? they seem just a wee bit relevant…
“What would happen if some of the Rabbinic molesters were quietly retired a few at a time and were given a shomer to make sure they are never alone in the vicinity of children?”
nothing short of prosecution is sufficient
“Neither one.”
and why did you say that…why WOULD you say that?!
because they werent a secular army…
“or a google custom search or in inurl: parameter”
i take that back…i made the wrong point with the wrong source…
😀
im not sure if this is quite the just world hypothesis or a spin on it…but a lot of people prefer to believe that evil doesnt exist beause they find it inconceivable (for those of you who have studied the subject…lets leave out the theological component) but thats a lot of what it is. “we’re frum jews…we couldnt possibly do this” well why not…?
use google…or a google custom search or in inurl: parameter
well actually, if you want perspective, consider this. what would your reaction be if you found out that your ten year old son’s rebbi or menahel had beat him to within an inch of his life, breaking both of his arms, one of his legs, and bruising him over 60% of his body; would you call the police? would you storm down to the school and beat the living daylights out of him? i know i would…and you wouldnt spend time verifying your son’s story; his word alone would be enough to send you into a blinding rage against the monster who beat him.
whats ironic about this hypothetical situation is that the trauma of sexual abuse goes so much deeper and lasts for so much longer than a simple beating. bones an be mended, bruises clear up, and pride restored, but sexual abuse is an assault on so much more than the body-it is an assault on a person’s very soul. and this is a debate. how.
“I suggest that women only do exercises that have a clear mesorah in Yiddishkeit.”
O_O
what…just…what?!
btw im really not seeing a problem. if its a womens only class…who cares what they do?
is his flock already eating there? and is this a hypothetical straw man?
pretend she doesnt exist…?
there is a difference between rabbonim and self proclaimed rabbonim
or maybe she literally is decrying the common practice of throwing children under passing buses.
you people dont understand extortion. heres extortion. you have X number of customers. unless you hire me as the rav hamachshir i will make sure you lose 1000 customers. extortion is not setting a price for a product or service.
is it reasonable to walk into a best buy and, when told tha tthe laptop you’ve had your eye on for the past three months costs $3000, run around the store hysterically yelling abou thow the store is extorting you? no. you can complain about the price until you turn blue in the face, but it is NOT extortion.
now i see some of you over there in the corner, raising your hands to call me on the loose interpretation of extortion, namely, charging an exorbitant fee disproportionate to the product offer or service rendered, bu tthat simply leads right back to my earlier questions: 1) how much did the vaad want from this restauranteur, and 2) what is the going rate for a hechsher. simply calling extortion because the requirement for a certain service costs money is petulant and juvenile.
i need electricity, does that mean that ConEd is extorting me? i need clothing, is Joseph A Bank extorting me? I need food and water, are the various corporations which collectively comprise the food industry categorically a bunch of extortionists?
Now it is true that in certain neighborhoods and communities an eatery stands no chance without a hechsher; but does that mean that they cannot open without one? John Doe is more than welcome to open Yosef’s Treifa Chazerai smack in the middle of boro park, and not a soul could stop him. would he get an ounce of business? perhaps, perhaps not. however he can still do as he pleases. the customer is under no obligation to the vendor, the vendor is constantly under obligation to the consumer.
i would equate the OP’s complaint to the proprietor of a Sak’s 5th Avenue franchise complaining about lack of business at his brand new Harlem location. well…wha tthe heck did you expect.
suppose one day a fine gentleman walks in and requests a sean john hoodie and some ripped jeans, and upon hearing that your store has no such items, walks out and tells his friends that your store is useless. the next day you get 10 phone calls, all from callers requesting ghetto wear-that they will patronize your establishment if and only if you sell such items, is that extortion? absolutely not. the consumer knows what he wants and if not satisfied, will move on. i rest my case.
um…youre all arguing with not enough information…2 questions seem germane…
1) how much did the vaad want from the restaurant
2) how much is the going rate
“with leadership like this we are doomed to fail our children once again”
thats a little harsh…but i get your point and agree completely. the problem is that every time a sensitive issue is brought up be it stigma or sexual abuse or spousal abuse or any similar issue people say “we know its a problem…but why must we air our dirty laundry?”
well…because not airing it is causing immeasurable harm to its victims. like when i wrote my article and now when im working on my book ive been told that by so many people and it always annoys me…because its people like that who keep the problem happening.
DISCLAIMER: i in no way support the gay rights movement or anyone associated with it. the following is just a review of their tactics.
the gay rights movement has been fighting for the right to marry for decades and have finally started to get what they want. when it first started…people said “shkoyach you wanna be homosexual…be homosexual…i dont wanna hear about it” which basically meant that there was no acceptance of homosexuality, but people didn’t want to openly admit their prejudices.
so what the gays did was force the issue by being in everyones face and getting extremely vocal advocates on their side…and slowly public opinion began to shift. they havent gotten what they want yet…but theyve made tremedous headway…BECAUSE they were so vocal about it.
such issues, whether you agree with them or not…can only be fought for by being vocal and outspoken and willing to take some heat…”dont be so vocal” is the refuge of those who arent interested in societal change.
again…i dont support the gay rights movement at all…but there is no doubt something to learn from them. (btw the same applies to the civil rights movement and hippies getting teh vietnam war ended…butliekyea)
and what would you do if your kid told you he was molested?
and therefore people shouldnt claim it…im not seeing a point
yeah i can account for idiots…but there is a difference between “people arent perfect” and abusive spouse. a big difference. were all b’geder “not perfect” we dont all go around abusing people. and yes…it is a personal choice…its always a choice…and im just saying that anyone who doesnt is a masochistic fool.
“soliek if the thread is not of interest to you you are not required to contribute it is of interest to some of us.”
i know…i contributed out of the goodness of my heart
I’m not referring specificallyto this case when I said what I said…I simply find the idea that when a child calls rape we automatically assume that its a fabrication. I’m not gonna go all failed messiah over here…but there are many unreported sex crimes happening each year in our community and people don’t report it because they are told not to. They are told that its wrong to report it…that its wrong to ruin the molestors family…his marriage…his reputation. I seriously doubt that the majority of reported rapes are false and perpetuating the idea that there is something wrong with reporting sexual abuse is like Arab countries droning a rape victim who can’t produce 4 male witnesses to prove her story. It’s retarded. I know two people who were sexually abused as kids one has gotten over it the other…not so much. Neither reported it because they were told it was wrong. Need I say more?
“Just because charges were laid doesn’t mean someone has committed a crime. In many instances of allegations it is manufactured out of revenge by the other parent.”
tell yourself that if it makes you feel better
“We are not immune, and mental illness knows no boundaries.”
sexual abusers arent classified as mentally ill
“The problem isnt the abuse, its the cover up”
well…i know what you meant to say…but you may want to rephrase
“soliek has a point. UNless the person undergoes a major personality surgery and teshuva and makes it very clear and obvious they admit they were wrong and are trying to rectify their soul and habits”
no. not even. never. when it comes to abuse you run far, run fast and never EVER look back. there is no such thing as personality surgery…unless you mean a frontal lobotomy…and teshuva is fine as far as hashem is concerned. as far as we’re concerned…an abusive person loses their rights to the person they abused.
“Why should we err on the side of the children? As long as the person is removed from children why should we risk putting innocent person in jail and ruining his family? Is it fair to his children?”
ill try to be as civil as possible.
firstly you obviously have never researched the effect of sexual abuse on children or in fact anyone. google RTS, read up on it, and then come back here and say that with a straight face. you dont understand what its like for someone who has been sexually abused to know that their abuser is walking around free while they feel alone and ashamed and unclean and completely isolated. no. there can be no sympathy for ANYONE who sexually abuses another person. child or adult..which brings me to my next point.
recidivism rates for sex offenders are so high…i really cant understand how anyone could in good conscience advocate covering up such a crime. if you know about a sexual abuse and cover it up and then that person rapes someone else…that rape is on your hands. the fact that this is even a debate disgusts me. i have a whole chapter in my book devoted to this subject and i know people are going to flame me for it but i dont care. i truly cannot understand how someone could advocate for sex offenders to remain free. seriously.
who cares…
“As it turns out, I started a new job somewhat recently and, as a result, I don’t have as much time to spend in the CR as I used to.”
that really makes no sense…in fact employment should mean that you spend even more time here…
“Physical abuse is a red line, you walk away after the FIRST incident.”
absolutely. i dont care how much teshuva a person does, or how remorseful they feel…once a person is physically abusive they are out. no three strikes. its too empowering to just give up. i mean…you ask for something…dont get it. you yell…still dont get it. youre verbally abusive (which itself is grounds for divorce in my opinion) still dont get what you want. all of a sudden you hit your wife in the face and she does whatever you want…there is no return from power like that. ive never been married, but i HAVE lived in an abusive home and all abusive people are the same. the second they raise a hand is the second they become unfit for any kind of relationship.
the biggest advantage to owning a smartphone…is not having to lug around a phone AND an AP3 player. that being said…get an android
!
start with wikipedia and WebMD…look at the references on both and go from there
you can use it for long distance with your computer using a mic and speakers…you just need the google talk voice and video plugin for gmail…or you can route your google talk calls through any phone
“It’s times like these I’m glad I have a Mac.”
you do realize that people dont write viruses for mac because its not worth it…if the majority of computer users are running windows why bother writing a virus for an OS that only controls 1/10th of the market…
if apple ever passed microsoft in popularity then yes…mac would have viruses and windows wouldnt. sheesh.
“80 is the gematria of letter ‘Pay’. We seem to be a Pay free, Payless site at the moment and *we want this changing!*”
wow…how long did it take you to come up with that gem…
my cousins had a table with cake and kugel for meshulachim and it worked
oh just set me loose on joseph…id love a chance to out joseph joseph…
you want to deal with joseph for once and for all? post every shred of personal information you have thats absolutely confirmed about joseph and let us rip him to pieces…id love a shot
“H-a-s-h-e-m H-e-l-p M-e F-i-n-d A S-h-i-d-d-u-c-h-!-!”
well right there is your problem
yeah it works…what are you using it for?
lol i stopped reading ami once they stopped publishing me 😛
well i tried answering but the mods apparently thought it was too much of a walkthrough. personally i think you should know how its done so as to avoid it…but thats just my opinion
i dont like MM’s answer because it completely undercuts the intended and obvious meaning of the question