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“soliek-So good to hear from you again!! Thanks for your insight, and I’m sure you’re right. But the problem is, that I don’t think he feels our love. If he’s home at all, he’s usually so full of anger, that it’s hard to have any peaceful conversation without his anger errupting, and us trying to gracefully pull out of the conversation. I told my husband not to even talk to him at all right now, bc EVERYTHING makes my son blow up and talk chutzpadik to us.”
He’ll recognize it when he needs to. I can’t say I know how hard it is to love someone as much as you love your son and have it thrown back in your face, but I do think when the time comes he’ll recognize and remember it.
Enjoy your shidduch crisis 🙂
I’ve been catching up on this thread (which…wow…its STILL here!!!) and there’s just one point I wanted to bring up because I obviously can’t address everything everyone said here. I’m so sorry that you have to see your son going through this. I know how heartbreaking it can be. I work with kids like your son and every time I see the next level it hurts me very much, emotionally and even physically–and I’m not the parent, so I can’t even imagine the pain you must feel. I hope your son finds his way and that you and your family never have cause to feel pain or cry again.
That being said, I think it was Aries who mentioned above that your son is on a dark journey that can’t really be reduced to a projected timeline. I don’t know what prompted the change in your son (maybe you mentioned it and I just didn’t read it) but whatever it is he’s unfortunately set on a path that ultimately only he can find his way out of. That doesn’t mean that he can’t be influenced by other people positively, but any decision he makes to change will ultimately be his decision alone.
Someone else mentioned the effect that your love will have on him. You said how painful it is to constantly love him but see no change, but I think there is an effect, or at least I see it in the kids I work with. We love them unconditionally but they don’t necessarily stop taking drugs, having “relationships” with girls, dealing, clubbing, partying, etc. But what usually happens, is that when they make the decision to change, when they decide that that life is no longer for them, they know exactly where they can go and to whom they can return. They remember that love and it helps them heal.
There was a kid who was hanging out with a fellow staff member and for months he didn’t change. One night we were in a car on the way home, me this other staff member, this kid and two of his friends, and he just starts saying over and over again about how he can’t keep living like this, that he needs to change, go back to yeshiva, and turn his life around. For a while I didn’t see him, and then I saw him outside a yeshiva dressed like a regular bachur and I said hi to him and he seemed genuinely happy. I talked to some people, including this staff member, and he had come to them for help and they had gotten him into this yeshiva. Despite anyone’es best efforts it had taken HIS decision to change. and when he wanted to, he knew where to go.
So I know it’s hard, and I know that you’re in a lot of pain right now, but please hold on, for his sake and yours…please hold on. When he decides to turn his life around, he’ll know where he can go.
Here’s a novel idea, instead of judging a person based on a list of perceived flaws–flaws that may have been out of their control–save everyone the long phone bills and onesh for lashon harah that may or may not be l’toeles and just meet the girl and see if you like her. if you liked the first date, have another one, and then another, and then another, as many as you need to get to know her. if you get to know her and you dont see a problem and if you think you two can work as a couple then get married. im not seeing what the whole to-do is about.
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“If your son will see what he misses by rejecting our way of life, he might reconsider. Much hatzlacha.”
there are many way of going about that and kicking a kid out is not one of them…nor is turning siblings against each other
“As it stands now, he has agreed to finish this year if I give him my computer (without internet) to use when he comes home. Only problem is: his heart is not in the learning, he’s watching secular videos, and I feel completely helpless bc he’s calling all the shots.”
The computer shouldn’t even be a topic of discussion. If he’s miserable in yeshiva, then make that the incentive. He can leave yeshiva, only if he does something else with his day. a GED program, a job, an apprenticeship, college…something. If he really doesn’t want to be in yeshiva, why torture him? The chances of him turning around because he’s being forced into going are minimal. He should need to justify the computer. If he would be in college, he would be able to justify it.
On the other hand, when you say that your son is stuck I completely understand that. It’s why I’m not in college now. True, I work and volunteer, but I never went to college primarily because I’m thoroughly sick of the concept of school. So saying that that should be the other option is easier said than done. Still, it’s worth a shot…I mean why bribe him with something detrimental for something detrimental, when you can have him do something that is constructive, and thereby earn the privilege for what would no longer really be a bribe?
“What percentage of OTD kids come back? Is the parents’ approach to the child while going OTD, connected to which children come back?
Do experts feel certain approaches by parents yield a greater percentage of return?”
Percentages are unknown…but the experts DO feel that it matters how the parents approach the situation. I mean, forget religion entirely and focus on the common sense of it. Assume that you have a completely secular kid in a completely secular family who starts hanging out late with the wrong crowd, and doing poorly in school. Think through all the possibilities of what the parents might do. Or the negative influences on other siblings. It’s really not that different. Religion is just another variable in an already messy equation.
We have parents occasionally walk into or call our place absolutely at wits end because their son just won’t keep shabbos, or won’t come home on time, or smokes, or hangs out with girls etc., and to hear them on the phone they sound like they’re ready to kill their son. “HOW DARE HE NOT LISTEN TO WHAT I SAY, IM HIS PARENT! I GAVE BIRTH TO HIM! AND NOW HE DOESNT EVEN WANT TO KEEP SHABBOS?! HE CAN AND PROBABLY WILL GO TO HELL!!!” And then there’s the “I GAVE HIM EVERYTHING AND THIS IS HOW HE REPAYS ME, BY EMBARRASSING THE FAMILY!!!” Which is a completely invalid thing to say because giving objects and possessions is nothing compared to giving unconditional love, and everyone needs, wants, and appreciates unconditional love.
The problem is that most people don’t quite understand what unconditional love means. It means kind of like what Pirkei avos says ??? ??? ?????? ??????? ?? ???, ?? ??? ??? ???? ??? which I know is an odd way of putting it, but that’s what it is. Unconditional love means that I will love you with no conceivable expectation of reciprocity. If you feel like giving me something in return that’s your business, but I in no way expect it. And that is how a parent must love a child, with no expectation of reciprocity. I can only imagine how hard it is in practice, but even naturally a person feels a strong love toward children that should transcend everything.
So when a parent stops loving a kid because the kid isn’t frum, that means that the parent only loved the child as long as the child did as was told, and stayed frum. That’s an expectation of reciprocity and that makes the love unconditional. If a kid gets arrested in front of the neighbours and the entire community is pointing and whispering, and the parent stopws loving the kid it means that the love was on condition that the kid uphold the family’s good name. A parent’s love should never have any caveats or requirements. It should never be contingent on a specific set of circumstances.
That being said, unconditional love does not preclude chinuch. After all, it is a parent’s job, religious or not, to teach a child right from wrong, but that’s all it is–a job. It is a parental obligation, it is simply something that must be done. But that can never preclude love, even if the child doesn’t follow the path set by the parent.
msseeker: I once dealt with a parent who chucked his kid out by using the legal system…not a good idea. That is seriously a last resort, and shouldn’t be on the table. That’s very dangerous advice and I don’t think you quite understand its implications.
“It seems that the girl you started talking to filled a need, and once that need was met, you were able to tap into your own strengths and let it go, making you free to pursue more appropriate supports.”
That sums it up nicely.
Also about the music, you don’t necessarily have to say anything at all, be it encouragement or criticism. You can just ignore it and not say anything. But you’re right, it is bad, and of course it has an influence. Everything we see, hear, and do influences us.
Also, a person he can be friends with and confide doesn’t have to be a rav or therapist or even someone older or in a position of authority. It can be anyone. That’s what I was looking for when I started talking to that girl…just someone to talk to who I knew would listen. Does he have any good friends outside of that chevra?
“I’m just wondering if there are other kids like this who seem to go through the motions of Yeshiva, yet escape into the secular world of movies and Lady Gaga. What becomes of them? Of their Yiddishkeit?”
Depends on their foundation. Some kids get hooked by secular society and its culture and want a taste of it, but underneath it all they still have a strong foundation in yahadus. Others don’t and the secular world engulfs them.
“Is it possible he could come out of this without counseling? The more I think about it, the more I think that he will never open up to someone, and even if he goes back today to Yeshiva, I know we will be walking on eggshells until the year finishes.”
That’s an interesting question, and it doesn’t have an absolute answer. The discussion came up at our place one night about why some people seem to be able to take what life gives them and keep moving on, and some people fall apart. The only reason we could come up with is that hashem made some people more resilient than others, and that it’s not a universal assumption that just because A powered through his problems that B can power through his. Some people are naturally resilient, some people need others to enable their resilience. So can he recover on his own without therapy, etc?
Depends on what you mean by recover. There are two issues here, one is the fact that he’s moving further off the derech, and the other is that he clearly has some emotional stuff that he needs to work through and sort out. That creates many possible outcomes. He may stay frum, but be constantly resentful; he may abandon yahadus and channel his frustrations and anger into that pursuit; he may stay frum and recover on his own and live as though he never had the problem. Anything is possible if he’s left to his own devices.
What he needs is someone he can trust, someone he can tell anything to. Apparently you’re not that person, which shouldn’t offend you or make you feel guilty, it’s not for lack of trying on your part. Everyone needs their own friend, or mentor, or whatever to talk to and confide in, and that doesn’t have to be a parent necessarily. I had issues, and they were only resolved once I found that someone I could trust and confide in. That can sometimes even obviate the need for therapy. Obviously therapy is highly recommended though.
About yeshiva. I’ll share a bit of my experience. Without going into details because my situation was nothing like you and your son’s, I missed most of twelfth grade. In the beginning of the year I missed once a week, but by the end of the year I only came once a week and even then I came late and cut out early. I didn’t enjoy learning very much, and my priorities had shifted from learning and studying to working and doing my own thing. But I couldn’t officially be employed since I was really in school, so I would hang out at a driving school and the owner would throw me odd jobs here and there.
That was for about two hours a day, and the rest of the time was my own. Through the internet, I ended up getting myself a nice, non-jewish Irish girl to spend time with. I didn’t have anyone else in this world at the time, and she was like a breath of fresh air. We never did anything, but it did come close (we video chatted but never met, but I was supposed to fly over to her several times, and somehow managed to control myself and didn’t go) . So we went strong for around six months, staying up all night talking, texting, calling, until a year later when I got a regular job. I didn’t have as much time for her anymore, but we still talked and texted when we could, hardly video chatted, but we managed.
Then I got a second job, which made me a 9-5 stiff. We stopped actually talking altogether, no more video chatting, and still occasionally texted, but even that tapered off. We haven’t communicated in a long while and I intend to keep it that way. But the only reason I would say I stopped was because I had something else to do. Once I stopped talking to her, I was able to get my priorities in order. Learning, davening, etc, and eventually I landed in Our Place as a volunteer. But the only reason any of this happened with me and her is because I had waaaaaaaaaaaaay too much time on my hands because I wasn’t in Yeshiva, I had my own computer and unfiltered internet, and I was unemployed.
So that should answer both your questions about Yeshiva and the computer. If he doesn’t feel like going, there’s not much you can do about it. But the alternative can’t be staying out all day and hanging out, or lounging around the house doing nothing. IF he doesn’t feel like going to yeshiva then he should have to get a job to keep him busy. Batala mevia lidei shiamum. And the computer is not a good idea. I know that if I didn’t have a computer with unfiltered, unmonitored internet access I never would have gotten involved with that girl.
“Soliek- I don’t know, any suggestions? I was thinking about the computer, maybe giving him more computer time.”
I still think that giving him his own computer is a bad idea for a number of reasons. More time on the computer maybe…is there anything else more innocuous that he wants?
Depends on the bribe…what do you have in mind?
This thread seems to have been started with the purpose of helping one individual person. With that in mind, try to keep the theoretical arguments someplace else. Derailing this thread would not be like derailing other threads.
adams: That’s a nice ideal, but don’t kid yourself. You don’t enable something even if it’s going to happen based on a remote possibility.
write or wrong: That’s good to hear 🙂 Then just let him do his thing as long as he isn’t spoiling shabbos for the rest of the family or being an actively negative influence.
“I wanted to clear up MP4, I think you mean MP3”
MP4 players play video
Well, off the top of my head I would say that any chillul shabbos should be kept private and away from the rest of your kids. If he feels like watching a movie, listening to music, or whatever else he may feel inclined to do, he should do it from the privacy of his own bedroom. As far as meals go, if he decides to show up for one, then kol hakavod, and for as long as he’s at the table he’s as much a part of the family as anyone else. And as for leaving early and staying out late, missing shacharis, and sleeping in, why is that different than any other day?
I mean, to someone who doesn’t feel kedushas shabos, or appreciate it’s gift, it really is no different than any other day of the week. Although you may understand that it’s not, he obviously doesn’t. So as far as he’s concerned, treat it like any other day of the week. You can invite him to participate in whatever the family is doing, but don’t push it too much.
“At this point, the house rules for him are to speak to his parents respectfully,as we speak to him, and to get rid of (or perhaps seriously reduce) his anger. I told him that as a parent, I am obligated to know where all my children are, who they are with and when they will be home. To some extent, he is trying to comply.”
sounds like a nice tacit understanding
“-It’s hard not to care about what the community thinks, everyone tries to keep their kids away from these street boys, and now my son has become one of them!”
yochanan kohen gadol became a tzeduki after 80 years in service…if your neighbours can swallow that they can swallow what you and your son are experiencing
“My question is how to enforce he adhere to guidelines?”
Depends on the guidelines. The only thing you can really try to enforce is how he behaves when he’s inside the house, so that depends on what he already does inside your house and what you don’t want him doing inside the house.
About your neighbours and the community…trust me when I say that worrying about stigma will only make your life harder, not easier. That’s not to say that you have to go around handing out fliers saying “Hey! look! my kid is OTD!!!” but don’t bother trying to keep secrets. It will come out anyway, and when it does you’ll be embarrassed for hiding it in the first place, and it just gets in the way of you doing what you need to do for your family. Also when a kid knows that you’re ashamed of his image in front of others it’s very degrading and kills self esteem.
Back on point. How to enforce it? Your only real threat is to kick him out and that shouldn’t even be on the table unless he does something exceptionally unacceptable. When you talk to him and lay down guidelines, speak gently but firmly, and from your heart. Respond to his anger as calmly as you can, and tell him how you feel about it. You don’t have to be a wimp about it, but expressing your feelings will disarm him in the long run, and send the message that you really do love him despite this rough bit. Tell him why you need him to keep these guidelines, bring up the siblings, do not bring up the neighbours, or shadchannim, or any kind of reference to public image.
If you can, I would recommend having an honest and frank conversation about all of this with him. Don’t talk down to him, or treat him like a kid. If he wants independence and adulthood then treat him as such. Honest conversations never hurt. Even if he yells at you again, he will eventually remember it all when he feels like coming back. Lay it all out for him. Explain that adulthood comes with responsibilities, among which includes acting responsibly around his younger siblings, etc.
Just one more thing. The fact that you’re asking for advice here, and judging by your posts here, it is evident that you love and care for your son and his wellbeing very much. I would have been honoured to have a parent like you, and I wish you hatzlacha with your son. Many of the parents I’ve dealt with aren’t half as caring as you appear to be.
I keep thinking of more things to say, I’ll wait for your response before I say any of it.
“Soliek-How can I deal with his anger when it sems like everything makes him angry?”
I don’t know because I don’t know the specifics of what you’re dealing with.
“even to the point of considering getting myself help if you hadn’t all reached out as you did.”
Not sure what you meant, but i would suggest that you speak with a therapist about all of this. We can just offer you broad advice here, but if you need help with specifics you need to talk to professionals.
Soliek, as far as ‘from now on’, I will have to find ways of showing him that I love him and accept him. But are you saying that in the past, he must not have felt that I loved him ‘for who he is’, and perhaps he is testing us, so to speak?? Meaning, maybe he felt that he’d have to ‘become a Rebbe one day’, for example, for us to love him?
When I said I keep thinking of what I didn’t give him, I meant, emotionally, not materialistically. Perhaps materialistically, he was somewhat deprived, but emotionally? I can only remember showering him with love and praises, being truly impressed by his talents and abilities since he was born, not limited to learning Torah and mitzvos.
Firstly, there’s nothing wrong with having expectations for a kid, and no I don’t think that would be it. And you may very well have loved him for whoever he was. I never meant to call that into question, and if that’s what you thought I meant then I’m sorry. Like I said it’s possible for a parent to show a kid the most love in the world, and then something completely external comes along and negates it. Nothing to do with you, don’t pin this on yourself. When I said love him unconditionally I meant for the future, I wasn’t referring to the past.
RationalRose–All of that. Just…yeah. All of that. He needs to know that no matter what he does, you will always love him as a mother loves a son. Again, that does not mean you have to enable him, does not mean you have to give into his demands. You can set guidelines, and expect him to adhere to those guidelines (be reasonable but firm with them) but love him even if he breaks those guidelines.
Don’t push it, but make him aware that you’re available to discuss whatever is on his mind. If he doesn’t feel like discussing religion, then don’t bring it up, but don’t shy away from being as overtly religious as you feel like being, and don’t feel a need to pander to his interests.
Perhaps most important of all, don’t give up on him. I’ve dealt with parents who have gone through exactly what you are with your son and have given up on their kids. It may be hard, but don’t give up on him.
What came up last night was, that my son said if I want to keep him away from the chevra, I should buy him his own computer and let him do whatever he wants, watch any movies he wants, no getting involved. Should I consider this?
Absolutely not. That’s nothing short of blackmail. He’s not going to stop liking his chevra just because you buy him a computer, so don’t even bother.
My gut reaction is that I don’t really want to bring this into my house, and help him immerse himself further into the secular world,
Yep. No reason to enable him, or potentially influence your other kids negatively.
but on the other hand, it would keep him away from the bad crowd (hopefully)
It wouldnt. I wouldn’t say this applies categorically, but many times when a kid falls in with the wrong crowd it’s because the wrong crowd does something for him–it fills a void that he feels. Maybe it’s because they accepted him, acceptance is very important to teens. Maybe it’s something else. Who knows. But giving him a computer isn’t going to change the reason why he started hanging out with them in the first place.
but when I realized he was somehow putting garbage onto his MP4, and hanging out with this crowd, I stopped it.
If he wants it he’ll get it, but you don’t have to be the one who gives it.
Also something else…when someone feels angry with life they tend to rebel against any authority they know. Religion is a pretty big authority. Therefore, in many cases, that anger must be dealt with before you can be mekarev a person. However you feel it should or could be dealt with.
“looking to see what I missed, what I didn’t give this child”
Again, it’s not about giving or permissiveness, or even approving of what he’s doing. It’s about accepting him for who he is and loving him for who he is, not what he might have been. Not that I’m saying you don’t–I don’t know you so I obviously can’t judge or even comment on that–I’m just giving some of my experiences. Giving a kid things isn’t loving him, nor is being overly permissive necessarily.
You said that he was the first child and got the most love, and then you said that there’s something that you know of which may be making him angry. It’s quite possible that that situation is making him forget everything in the past. You need to love him now as he is. You can obviously try and steer him in the right direction, after all that’s what parents are for, but love him for who he is now.
Again, I don’t know you, your kid, or your family, so please don’t take what I say the wrong way. I’m just speaking from what I know.
“The other issues are situational, and are not something we can change.”
Whatever it is, if he won’t agree to see a therapist then perhaps you should. The therapist will be able to A) better equip you to handle the stress you’re currently obviously experiencing, and B) possibly help you bring your son back by teaching you what to say, do, etc. I’m not an expert, I just have a little experience.
avhaben: Have you ever worked with people who are off the derech? Do you know what the purpose of psychology is? Do you even know why someone would suggest that he see one?
“the idea is to make a dysfunctional teen into a functioning teen, and then once he’s a functioning human IE, has a schedule and has a sense of what responsibilities are
then u might find him surprisingly going back ‘on the derech'”
which is a good way of explaining to avhaben why therapy is important. I forgot who said it, but it was someone big in kiruv, that sometimes you need to make someone into a regular goy before you can make him into a ger. If a person has issues that drove him off in the first place, or a person is suffering with something that is preventing him from going back on, then you first need to address those concerns before you can try to be mekarev him. Otherwise he will have no interest in what you’re saying.
Also for some reason you’re assuming that there are no frum psychologists out there who would be aware that for us going off the derech is problematic. That’s assuming you were at all right. You happen to be grossly mistaken, except for certain cases.
I’m not “back.” I saw this thread, I have experience with these things, and I felt I had to answer. I will not be posting on other threads unless they’re like this one.
But they can often find and treat what caused a person to leave in the first place.
“so when u tell a kid im ok if u listen to goyish music or do x y and z they will really know deep down ur lying 2 them”
It’s not that you’re ok with what they’re doing, its that despite the fact that they are doing something you don’t approve of, you still love them.
“B:validate him for real and including is empathize with him and just try to be a friend not a parent yes thats a real concept ur kid should have open relationship with u err on the side of being 2 friendly over the side of being fearful(though a little bit is oviously important”
yep
avhaben: Not sure where you got that from. Psychologists are not rabbonim, true, but rabbonim are not psychologists unless they’re licensed. You wouldn’t go to a pediatrician if your car is broken, would you?
Sam2: assuming there’s an interest at all. Usually with stuff like this there’s an underlying reason especially since it sounds more like there’s something that drove him off rather than just losing interest. Vertlach are nice for people who might be a bit shaky, but they can backfire in the wrong setting. It’s like telling someone who’s depressed to just snap out of it; it doesn’t necessarily work like that.
Rabbi Wallerstien would be a good idea if you can get ahold of him.
First of all, kudos on asking for advice, I know that that’s not easy to do, especially in situations like these. I don’t have kids so I can’t imagine what you must be feeling right now, but I work with kids like these every day at Our Place so I hope I can offer some ideas. Please pardon me if I seem blunt at times. Please correct me when I’m wrong.
Someone said above that in their opinion your kid isn’t going anymore, that he’s already a but further. Based on your description I would say that’s accurate. While there is what to be said about what people said above about trying to instill a love for yahadus is nice, but it has to be in context. It sounds from what you said that your son is angry about something and that is making him dislike judaism and by extension his family. The most important thing is unconditional love, as mentioned above by several people.
You ask a good question though, exactly how permissive do you have to be to be seen as loving unconditionally? The truth is that permissiveness and love are not mutually inclusive. For example, if a small child shoplifts and you reprimand him, do you not still love him? Permissiveness is not necessarily love, not is lack of permissiveness a lack of love. But back on point. I would say based on your description that it’s past the point of permission, so that’s a moot point. How do you show unconditional love for someone who does not appear to value that love? Good question.
First of all, accept who and what your son is. That does not mean you have to like it, that does not mean you have to approve of it (nor should you), but you should accept it. When you see your son now you need to see your son, not what you would have liked him to be, not who perhaps he might have been, you need to see and love what he is. That means that no matter how he looks, and who he is with, the smile on your face when you greet him is the same as it would be if he looked like the next bochur. I know that that’s hard to do, but that’s what he needs. You need to love him.
This is not meant as a criticism, it’s just instructional. Mussar has a time and a place, and it is only to be given if it will be readily accepted. It doesn’t sound like your son is interested in any, so don’t offer it. When you interact, leave it all off the table, and just treat him like you would if he were your standard run of the mill kid. The idea being that right now there’s something holding him back from embracing yahadus, and many times it’s common for kids to view their parents as the source of whatever is bothering him. Eventually that something will hopefully go away, and when it does he will be looking for a strong support system to fall back on. That strong support system will ideally be his family.
By doing this you are investing in his future. Support him and love him and he will eventually return. If he isn’t interested in going to yeshiva, don’t push it. Make a man out of him, help him learn a trade and get an honest paying job. There is no reason why he can’t be an upstanding member of society just because he doesn’t feel like being frum now. It will help in the long run if his life gets in order now.
About the wrong crowd though…that’s a tough one. There’s not much you can do about who he hangs out with, and forbidding it outright will just make him drift further away. I don’t know what he’s into, or what his friends are into. Many kids turn to the streets just to do what they want regardless of the consequences, but the fact that your son comes home at night is a very good thing. Please try to keep it that way.
You have quite a challenge ahead of you, and I wish you much hatzlacha. Just two questions, one may be a bit offensive but I don’t intend it that way. 1) Do you have any idea what might be causing such intense anger? 2) Is he on anything? Please be mochel me for the second question and feel free not to answer it.
the difference between teh rasha and the chacham was the way the question was asked
depends on the yid
I was just saying that the discussion whether or not getting stone drunk is mutar, is completely irrelevant to what i think should be the point of the thread.
You’re all off point. The point as i see it is not whether or not there is a mitzvah to drink, and if so how how much, but how the kids are seeing it. I don’t think kids that young are necessarily able to make the distinction between being drunk and being drunk on purim. The impression I would imagine they got, is that drinking is generally acceptable which it isn’t.
this goy of yours apparently doesnt eat gebrokts 😛
droid.
I actually don’t see much of a problem with an ultimatum like that. Getting rid of Facebook is easy and reasonable.