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sparkly – the words you are responding to are not mine, but rather Rabbi Fischer’s. I merely quoted him. That does not mean I agree with every word quoted. In this case I’d probably agree with you.
yichusdik – it was not and is not my intentions to lambaste Mr. Cohen. I do not know him at all, nor have I researched him either. So I have no rights to comment on him directly. I merely quoted his testimonial on the Nishma Research website. I could be wrong, but I am assuming that he did not hire or pay for the survey from his own pocket. I’m assuming he’s merely a representative of the Hebrew Union (who are the real clients of this survey).
Furthermore, I don’t mean to imply that Nishma intentionally construed the results to satisfy their client. Rather, I’m stating that the client base can at times subconsciously affect the outcome. That is why in scientific research it is common to do “double-blind experiments”, so that the researcher and their subjects are not subconsciously affected by bias. (By the way, if you search for “double-blind experiments” you’ll see that on one website the very first example of double-blind experiments given is to prevent surveys from being unintentionally distorted.)
There is another problem with this survey and that is lack of insight. The people who are hired to make these cold calls are often (if not always) not professionals such as psychologists who would naturally probe the answers given. These surveyors merely ask the questions that are on their list to ask and record the answers given. I can just about guarantee you that NONE of the 885 people surveyed were asked why the “perceived” lack of women’s rights in Orthodoxy would cause them to “drop everything” (especially since there are factions among the MO that they could join that profess the need for women’s rights and have even “ordained” female Rabbis). To the probing mind this question CAN NOT be overlooked! Thus, we can only assume that their “dropping everything” must be deeper than the shallow answers given.
I could possibly understand how a perceived chauvinism could start girls on a path of falling away from a Torah life, but how many guys TRULY would be SO bothered by a lack of equality that the would drop everything?! I highly doubt that the majority of guys that are OTD are that idealistic.
Also, if I don’t know a single soul who’s a Homosexual why would I be so bothered by the Torah’s condemnation of homosexuality that I’d throw everything away?! Not only my faith, but even my family and community, not to mention placing myself in a position of being excommunicated! And for what? For some homosexual I’ve never met?! IT JUST DOES NOT ADD UP!
In short, I don’t believe the survey was intentionally distorted, nor do I believe that those surveyed intentionally lied. Rather, I believe that for the OTD the answers given give them a sense of justification and yet deep down they know that these are not the true reasons, but rather excuses. It’s liken to the employee who states that he’s late due to “traffic” when deep down he really knows their are other factors that he’s hiding which are the real reasons he’s late, but it’s easier to get away with saying “traffic”.
As for the surveyors… I don’t believe that they are informed enough of the intricacies of our community and it psyche that they can properly prepare a survey that flawless. By default, it is guaranteed to be full of holes.
In my opinion the only way to get true results here is to hire a group of professionals psychologists who are keenly aware of our Orthodox communities and our mindset that they know how to look beyond safe answers and stubbornly probe for the true reasons. Only when their combined data is collected and analyzed can we truly get to the bottom of this.
I might post another comment later going more into depth on this topic, but for now here are some points.
1) Some of you complain that Rabbi Fischer only spoke concerning Modern Orthodox “Males” and avoided mentioning “female”. That is not totally accurate. Here is a quote from his article.
“Something similar is true of the female experience, although women tend to be more religious and more protective of preserving the culture and species. They also are not required to wear external defining symbols when they begin college, a sartorial factor that forces an OTD decision sooner, like deciding to stop wearing a yarmulka. For reasons dictated here by space considerations, I have focused here on the male phenomenon.”
2) Some of you complain about his narrow response to the survey. In my opinion, giving him the benefit of the doubt (which halachicly we should do), I don’t think his intention was to bring a full rebuttal, but rather to simply show that we should not take surveys at face value and that no survey is above scrutiny. The purpose of a survey is to bring to light information that is otherwise unknown or unclear. If there is a flaw in the methods used then clearly the results will not show accurately. What honest benefit can be reaped from it then. It can only be used for financial gain and nothing else. I hate to say it, but when I read the results of this survey I was frustrated because I am really looking for real answers concerning OTD and my gut feeling is that this survey did not really provide that. We can’t reverse this process unless we know the true reasons and I truly believe that the only ones that will gain out from this survey are the ones that paid for it and have an agenda. That leads me to my third point.
3) Look who’s behind this survey and who’s also a client of this startup Marketing Research Company from 2015, Nishma Research. Agendas, perhaps?
Here are two Testimonials on their site:
Steven M. Cohen | Research Professor of Jewish Social Policy at Hebrew Union College
Tsivia Finman | Director of Operations, Footsteps
A REFORM RABBINICAL SCHOOL AND AN OTD ORGANIZATION. Are we really to believe that their agendas had absolutely no affect on the supposed results?
Assuming that Avi K’s quotes are 100% accurate my response to that Rabbi would be the following:
The Beis HaMikdash was destroyed because of Sinat Chinam. It will only be built through Ahavat Chinum. This is the Nisayon of our Dor. When a soldier with Yirat Shamiyim and Ahavat Chinum is placed to protect others he does not consider whether those people are Chareidi, DL, Mesorti, or Chiloni. All he considers is that they are Jews that need to be protected.
The test of this Dor is Ahavat Chinam. This Rav has failed miserably!!!
I don’t know if they will allow me to post this link. If not, go to godaven.com and search Bais Yehuda. It seems they have kvasikin minyanim. From what the website says Rabbi Bess’ shul does not.
Rabbi of Crawley – quote “MIR HAS EVEREYONE – CHASSIDIM, LITVAKS, YEKKES, EVEN SEFARDIM AND YEMENITES, BUT NO…. NO DATI LEUMI!!!”
I hate to bust your bubble, but that is not entirely true.
First of all, in my Yeshiva we had a number of guys from KBY, Yeshiva HaKotel, MO schools in America, and Mamlachti Dati institutions. The only thing is that as time goes by they become integrated (by choice) into the Chareidi community, so unless you ask you’d never know that they were once DL. I assume it is the same in Mir.
#2 – Rav Finkel, z”l had a policy not to ask a talmid’s background. His only concerns were “are you interested in learning” and “are you a mentch”. The true reason why you don’t see DL in the MIR is because there isn’t a great desire among them to go there. Given a choice between Mir or Mercas HaRav the vast majority of DL will pick the latter. So what’s your point?
rwndk1 – thank you for sharing your personal experiences with us.
Avi K – your response to rwndk1 seems to have a tinge of hostility in it and unfortunately, in my opinion, some errors as well. I will contend, however, that you are correct that DL has a range of hashkafa and/or lifestyles. However, rwndk1 was talking about the majority of DL Jews.
In my experience with communities such as Efrat, Maaleh Adumim, RBS A, the old city, and a host of Yeshuvim (many Bnei Akivak) rwndk1’s assessment seems to be the rule more than the exception. That’s not to say that Chareidim communities are not suffering these breaches as well. However, as someone already pointed out, in our community they know deep down that they are acting wrong. Those DLs that act that way think their ways are totally acceptable.
You mention “filters” and used Adblock as an example. Although Adblock “filters” Ads, that is not what we are referring to when we speak about “filters”. When we say “filters” we are referring to blocking entire websites, not just ads. Examples are Nativ, Etrog, and Rimon (in Israel). WebChaver, YeshivaNet, and CovenantEyes (in USA). In my personal discussions with DL acquaintances I have yet to meet any that filter (not to say there are no DLs that do). Furthermore, most get hostile with me as if I just insulted their integrity by suggesting to use a filter. BTW – I’m assuming from your words that you do not have a filter in place. That’s a shame. 🙁
To end off, your last words imply that by not following your views concerning secular education, kollel, and allegiance to a secular government that we are “sinning”. First of all, you’ve now answered “Rabbi of Crawley’s” question. We hold you are making a “terrible mistake”. You hold we are “sinning”. How then can we expect to have peace between us with such attitudes as yours? You make it impossible.
Secondly, the Gemorah discusses secular education and basically frowns down upon it (look it up). Furthermore, the Natziv closed down his Yeshivah in order not to have forced secular education. This is a long discussion and here is not the place for it.
Kollel was instituted when the chochomim saw a need for it. The Chofetz Chaim was in favor of it, so too Rav Kook (there’s about 200 kollelites in Mircas HaRav). No one argues about the mitzvah of parnasa. The only argument is when and who.
Medinah – Accepting to include DL leading Rabbanim as among the Gedolim of our generation, still Rov Gedolim are against the Medinah. So even if you have the rights to follow your Gedolim, non-the-less that gives you no rights to refer to the Rov as sinners! Fakirt, “Holchim Achar HaRov”.
The first step towards Shalom is accepting other opinions. I hope that will be accomplished.
I don’t know why this point hasn’t been brought out, but in most incidences when the Zionist try to institute decrees (they call them laws) that are in opposition to our (Chareidi) Torah values the DL tend to side with them instead of us. That kind of makes it difficult for us to live in harmony with them.
The Litvish and Chassidim at times disagree with how to deal with the Zionist, but regardless we sit on the same side of the fence.
You are aloud to listen to soft music over a headset if you need to de-stress. There are kulas that can be relied on when necessary. I suggest you discuss this with your Rav.
I write the following with much caution as I am not interested in disparaging anyone, but feel clarification is necessary here. If I accidentally tread on Lashon Hora or Motzei Shem Rah I ask Michilah.
I had been an avid listener to Dennis Prager for years. I very much enjoyed his intellectual approach and honesty. Of all the talk show hosts that I ever listened to, he was the ONLY one that I remember actually listening to others’ opinions and contemplating them. I have at least once or twice heard him state on air that he has changed his opinion on a particular subject (such as “kids playing with toy guns” and concerning the “Clinton scandal”).
At one point I inquired about him from people that know him personally. I was told that his house (at least at the time) is/was Shomer Shabbat (and I assume Kosher as well).
For all this I credit him.
However, (and I assume he was waiting for this “however”) the fact is that he himself does not claim to be Orthodox, nor of the Orthodox mindset. This, unfortunately, means that even though we can consider him partially on the right track, we certainly can not consider him fully there. Thus, any material written by him needs to be scrutinized carefully before giving a green light to support him. I’m sure his book on the Ten Commandments may positively affect non-religious Jews (and Gentiles) to approach the Ten Commandment with deeper appreciation being that he is an intellectual and doesn’t take things for granted. However, our responsibility as frum Jews is to give over only the “proper” Masorah and that can be possible ONLY through those most G-d fearing.
Although Dennis Prager is a good man, I have found in my opinion (stress – “in my opinion”) that he serves G-d intellectually. However, Hashem does not want us to serve him JUST intellectually (I.E. serving with our mind alone). Rather, we are to serve him through a combination of Mind and Heart. Mind – meaning to try to comprehend Hashem’s ways, purpose of our creation, and function of each mitzvah. HOWEVER, serving because it “makes sense” is not the epitome of “Serving”. Optimum service is “EVEN” when we don’t understand. [Note – I specifically stated that “we don’t understand” as opposed to “where it doesn’t make sense” because the fact is that the problem lies with our limitations, not Hashem’s. I also specifically used the expression “EVEN” as opposed to “Blindly” being that Hashem WANTS us to understand. Just that it shouldn’t be limited to ONLY when understanding.]
If a child is obedient to his parents, but disobeys when he doesn’t agree, then he is not fully obedient. True obedience is when you do something because you were told to and for no other reason.
The concept of “Serving with Heart and Mind” is what is meant by “Naaseh V’Nishma” – “We will do (purely because this is your will) and we will listen (I.E. try to understand the wisdom behind your will).
Unfortunately, in my opinion, Dennis Prager find it easy to serve Hashem with his intellect, but difficult when it comes to Service of the Heart. Perhaps that is because in the non-Torah Intellectual world that is considered a weakness, not a strength. If he can overcome this stumbling block I believe he can become a truly G-d fearing Jew and perhaps even a righteous leader of his people.
But for now I could not recommend a Frum Jew to purchase or read his writing on Yiddishkeit. There are much more worthy material out there to study.
May Hashem Bless him and his family and guide them to a more righteous and more meaningful life.
– Softwords
Trust 789 – Nice question
oomis – Very well put. I was going to say similar, but the truth of the point is more validated when a woman states it instead of a man, so Kudos to you!
Sam2 – Guf Naki has nothing to do with hygiene. It has to do with being careful not to expel gas while wearing Tefillin. What’s more is that there is also a Chiyuv to have your mind on the Tefillin at all times and to be in a state of reverence. This the Mishna Brura states that women are less careful with than men. Therefore, your average woman should refrain from wearing tefillin.
Furthermore, if not for the fact that it is a mitzvah D’orisah, Chazal would have forbade even men from wearing tefillin due to the reverence needed. Originally tefillin was worn all day. Chazal limited it to while davening Shachris.
Being that it is not simple for the average Jewish man to wear tefillin, all the more so women who are not obligated to wear Tefillin.
Those men who entertain the idea of women wearing tefillin do not fully understand the reverence and kedushah of Tefillin. Better to start focusing on our obligation and relationship to wearing Tefillin instead of worrying whether women are allowed to.
PAA: You are correct, I was very tired when I read your original comment and somehow interpreted it to refer to WOW. Sorry.
Question however. Did you bring this down for the MO girls that want to wear tefillin?
PAA: I do not know off hand if these are the psakim of Rav Chaim or just him bringing down the psakim of the mishna brura in short, but this is what he writes in ??? ???? ?????:
? ???? ?????? ?????? ??????? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ????
???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?????? (??? ???? ???).
BTW – later I found this quote by Rabbi Ozer Alport, although he does not quote his source.
If that is the case, then clearly according to Harav Chaim Kanievsky WOW is different being that even they feel that Tefillin is voluntary for a woman and not obligatory.
PAA – I can not speak for R’ Chaim being that I have not asked him directly. It is obvious, however, that he is in great opposition to WOW.
I would venture to say that according to everybody, including the Ben Ish Chai who holds that there is a problem of Beged Ish, the main problem here is that these WOW women are Mizalzel B’Torah U’Mitzvos. The fact that they as a whole are not Shomrei Torah U’Mitzvos shows that their wearing Tefillin has nothing to do with dedicating themselves to Torah, but rather they are feminists that found their niche in feminism; namely “defend” women from chauvinism in Judaism. Unfortunately, in order for a cause to take off you need backers and they are clearly not getting support from their religious counterparts.
MoshbenDovid – shame on you for asking questions! You are asking people questions that they neither want to think about or give answers! They want merely to say, “Do as I say!”.
OK, now shame on me for asking!
To all our D”L brethren: One thing the Atzeres proved is that the Chareidim are united against this draft law. They will unitedly rebel against it at all cost. Rosh Yeshivas and their Talmidim will refuse to cooperate at all costs, even jail time. The only thing that can positively come out of this is that the Yeshivas will move from their buildings to the jail houses saving the Yeshivas millions of shekels on utility and boarding expenses that will now have to come out of government funding instead. (Keep in mind that jails are expensive to keep up)
They are solid as marble and will not budge at all. Compromises are out of the question. So, I ask you, what’s going to be? Are you ready to fill up all the jails with chareidi bnei Torah instead of harden criminals and Arabs that sneak into places like Itamar and murder innocent families in unthinkably brutal ways? There is not enough room for both.
So I ask again. Now knowing how the Chareidim think and WILL act. What will you do to enforce your new law?
Sam2 – these stories were told to me directly. I do not know if they are brought down in writing. However, the main point is that the Gedolim of the previous Dor reveal who’s the next Dor’s Gedolim. For that, I suggest going to KBY’s website and seeing what Rav Binyomin Beri writes about Rav Shach. (sorry, but I am not allowed to post the link)
Sam2 – you ask, “And who gets to determine which “Gedolim” are angel-like instead of people?”
Good question. When I asked this question years ago to my Rabbonim I was told that the Gedolim of the previous Dor seek them out and reveal who the next generations leaders will be.
We see this in Tanach and throughout the generations. For example, I on my lowly level could never have stated about Rav Shach what the Brisker Rav who was on a lofty level stated about him.
Another case in point, a friend of mine years ago asked one of the Gedolim of Bnei Brak if anyone today has Ruach Hakodesh. (I apologize, but I forgot which Gadol he asked.) That Gadol thought for a minute and then answer, “I do not know for sure, but if anyone today has Ruach HaKodesh it is most definitely Reb Chaim!”
You and I could never have made such a statement, but a Gadol who is himself on a lofty level can.
It is sort of like asking “Who is the top specialist in a given medical field?” You and I who have limited knowledge in the medical field (I’m assuming) can’t possibly begin to answer that, but another expert in that field can.
Another case in point. I heard that when the Chafetz Chaim z”l came to the Mir (Poland) all the Talmidim came out to great him except for one. When the Chofetz Chaim entered the Beis Medresh that talmid did not rise for the Gadol HaDor. This was not due to a disrespect, but rather because that talmid was so engrossed in his learning that he simply did not notice what was going on in his surroundings. The Chofetz Chaim commented on the young man that he will be one of the future Gedolim. That young man was Rav Chaim Pinchus Sheinberg, z”l.
ihear – in truth I am not on a level to state my opinion, but non the less this what I would think. Hopefully I will not steer you in the wrong direction.
We see that Hashem “lied” to Avraham about what Sarah Imeinu said. Why? Because of Shalom Bias. We can learn from here that not every truth should be told.
However, in a case of marriage it really depends if that information will affect the marriage if not told prior. Therefore, a reliable posek should be consulted. May Hashem guide you to receive the correct psak.
PAA – do me a favor. Don’t use rationalist judaism as a source. I don’t trust him for beans. If he told me the sky is blue I wouldn’t believe him.
Quote, “It doesn’t have to uproot any opinions. It just makes the Rambam an invalid proof because how can you say that all 66,000 people fall into that category.”
Your statement is based on how you are interpreting the Rambam’s words. Obviously, others interpret differently and based on their interpretation there is no question. Regardless, if one excepts as fact that the government is using the army now for shmad, the rules have changed.
BTW – I happen to know prominent Hesder Rabbanim that agree that the rules have changed.
mdd – quote, “Softwords, if the D’L and the chilonim are paying for it, they certainly may have a say. To say otherwise is outrageous and chillul HaShem.”
So in that case you will have to agree that if we agree not to take any money from the government then we should be exempt from army services?
PAA – Quote, “Does this mean that you agree that there is a legitimate shita that Jews should go to the army?(I assume you believe in this concept as well.)”
In my opinion, certainly there is a legitimate opinion to go into the army! There is also a legitimate opinion of “Ain Bishul Achar Ofiah”! That doesn’t mean that I am aloud to follow that shita being that I am not Sefardi. For me, I would be required to bring a Karbon Chatas if I did. However, for my Sefardi friends, there is nothing wrong with putting a Challah directly on the Bleich.
I enjoy eating bagels, cream cheese, and lox. For my Sefardi friends, that’s a big NO NO!
Here too, for the two of us our din is different.
The chareidim are not saying that you can’t send your sons to the army, but rather that we are required NOT to send our sons that are learning full time. We believe that Limud HaTorah full time exempts one from army service.
You are morally obligated to send your sons to the army based on the psakim of your Rabbanim. We, in like, are morally obligated to refrain from the sending our Bnei Torah to the Army base on the psakim of our Rabbanim.
This point should be clear, but unfortunately most D”L have a nagiah that prevents them from excepting this reality.
Just an extra point: Unfortunately, however, due to this new bill that is an attempt to use the army as a vessel of shmad according to the opinions of our Gedolim (who we hold have divine inspiration), the rules of the game have changed for us and now what used to be excepted, is no longer.
PAA – quote, “I would altogether avoid the term “gadol” with all the confusion that comes along with it and instead I would talk about “tremendous talmidei chachamim”. While there may be no exact definition of this, someone who is holding in shas and poskim would clearly qualify.”
Thank you very much for your explanation. If your definition is except by and large by the D”L community, then you have brought a lot of enlightenment to the room.
I will not attempt to be the one to give a definitive definition of a “Gadol” for the Chareidi community, but this much I will say. When a Chareidi Jew uses the term “Gadol” he means something FAR beyond just a “tremendous talmidei chachamim”. What you are defining, we call a “Chacham”. With that definition there is room to include ALL the above mentioned Rabbanim.
However, when we use the term “Gadol” we are using it in reference to someone that is an “Ish Kodesh” who receives Divine inspiration and sees things that are beyond the scope of pure human logic alone. For instance, Hashem provided for Mordechai HaYehudi information about what was going on that Mordechai could not have possibly known on his own.
When I once inquired about HaRav Shach, z”l, the Gadol that I spoke to brought down in the name of the Brisker Rav that “HaRav Shach is able to see things in the same way that we are able to see things in a lightning storm”. I took that to mean that just like when there is a bolt of lightning at night, all of a sudden it lights up the sky and you can see things momentarily, so to Rav Shach was able to see things momentarily and realize the outcome.
To us a Gadol is way beyond just being an incredible Talmid Chacham. I have a Rebbe who is a Baki in Shas and outstanding in Kaballah as well. However, I would not refer to him as “Gadol”. He has reached tremendous heights, but not to the heights of a Gadol!
Now, assuming that all Chareidim would agree to what I have said, can you understand that we don’t mean to desparage your Talmeidi Chachamim. However, we would never put their opinion before the opinion of those “angel like” people that we call “Gadol”; those that we believe have special siyata dishmiya that goes beyond mere logic?
PAA – “Because when I put it in one long post it takes forever to be moderated (at least that’s what the moderators tell me).”
Thanks for the heads up. I did not know that.
quote, “I can’t look it up if you don’t provide me a source where I can look it up.”
I posted the source in another feed or Article on this website. Search for it.
quote, “There is something in between – a logical argument which may not be a case closing proof.”
Granted. But that implies that there is room for argument. In this case, my point was that a statement based on opinion instead of solid proof, although not necessarily discredited, is not strong enough to uproot other opinions.
Sam2 – “The Taana is against mass Kollel.”
This is a point of contention between Rabbanim and each Rav is entitled to run his Yeshiva accordingly. No one has the right to enforce their psak onto others especially when the majority of the Gedolim of this Dor hold very strongly for “mass Kollel”. I heard with my own ears a Gadol tell his talmidim, “…I see no heter to go out and work. Anyone that feels differently should see me privately.” You may disagree with that Gadol. You may follow another Gadol instead. You may not enforce your opinion on to his talmidim and tell them that they are not to remain in kollel unless they fulfill “your” conditions.
The main point here is that the D”L community is in cahoots with the chiloni to force their opinions onto the Chareidim and that is out of line. If it were the other way around you’d be incensed, wouldn’t you?
mdd – I hear what you’re saying. However, I’m sure you’ll agree that the Poskie HaDor know those sources better than you and non-the-less, they still hold of Kollel and not to go into the Army. Even Hesder Yeshivas have Kollel.
Sam2 – the Avreichim in Beitar means nothing to me. As far as Rav Metzger and Rav Amar, can you back up your claim? I checked on line and found nothing in correlation of them to Rav Lichtenstein, shlita. After viewing a link about “Rabbi Dr. Aharon Licthenstein to receive Israel Prize” I’m surprised that such a strong praise that you claim was not mentioned. Sorry, but at this point I have to leave it as hearsay.
Sam2 – Quote, “This is insane…”
Perhaps we have different understanding in what constitutes a Gadol. Based on our understanding of what is a Gadol, there is no insult what so every in stating that Rav Drukman, R. Aviner, Rav Stav, and R. Lichtenstein are not Gadolim. Based on our understanding, neither are Rav Uri Zohar, Rav Amnon Yitzhak, Rav Meir Shapiro, Rav Yitzhak Yosef, Rav Lau, Rav Metzker, Rav Grossman, and Rav Jonathan Sacks. All of these mentioned are highly respected Rabbanim and Poskim. That fact that they are (not yet) Gedolim does not detract from their greatness. It is rather just merely stating the reality.
It could be based on your definition of “Gadol” all these Rabbanim quoted above also constitute a “Gadol”.
“It is well-accepted by many in the Chareidi world that no one has a greater Iyun in all of Rishonim than R’ Aharon Lichtenstein.”
With all do respect, as much as I find R’ Aharon Lichtenstein to be a warm and caring person (and yes, I know him) I have never ever in the last 30 years heard anyone make the claim that you have made. Can you quote someone who has written or said so? (I just spent about a half hour on line trying to find some words of praise about him from the Chareidi world and found nothing. Not trying to discredit him, G-d Forbid, just trying to see if you know something that I don’t.)
Patur Aval Assur – I’m not sure why you felt it necessary to answer each point in a separate post. You could have put them all in one post.
That said, he is my reply.
“By all means, if you provide a source.”
Like I said, (If you don’t believe me look it up) yourself.
“What about his argument is not logic? And…”
In both cases (his argument and yours about 66,000) it is based on feelings, not solid proofs.
“This phenomenon is not limited to benei yeshivos.”
Yes, but keep in mind that he has this phenomenon w/o working. When an Avreich is not having such siyata dishmiya he is advised to go out to work.
“What is the definition of “gadol”?”
Good question. I’d like to hear what your definition is.
“Also, although when discussing Shevet Levi, the Rambam…”
Yes, you have a legitimate argument, but it can also be leart that it is going on the whole previous Rambam. That is why there is a machlokes haposkim on this.
Eilu V’Eilu Divrei Elokim Chaim! (I assume you believe in this concept as well.)
mdd – based on your logic, why did all of the Dor Da’ah NOT work? Clearly we can not base our present situation on the hanhagas of previous Doros, but rather we need to turn to the Gedolim of our Generation for guidance.
Quote: “And correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think that R’ Isser Zalman Meltzer was a Zionist Rabbi…”
But Rav Avraham Kook zt”l was considered a zionist (at least by the D”L) and he held that those in Yeshivas are Patur from army service and uses the Rambam that you don’t want to recognize. (If you don’t believe me look it up)
As far as R’ Aharon Lichtenstein, he is a very nice man, but his arguments are based on feelings, not logic. It is not in his place to decide who is L’shem Shemayim and who is not. Can you go into any Yeshivah and honestly point out who is l’shem Shimayim and who is not? Who gave anyone the right to put a limit on this din? The Rambam didn’t, so how can he say maybe 5%, 10%, etc. It’s a case by case situation.
Furthermore, the answer is simple. The Rambam says
?? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? “??? ???? ????” ????
this implies that he decides for himself (not others).
How does he know that he is not fooling himself.
The Rambam continues
If he sees that Hashem is providing his needs then he can assume that he is L’shem Shamiyim. I’ve meet some many Bnei Yeshivas that can’t explain how they get by, just that every time they need to pay a bill or purchase something, etc. the money just comes (and not from the government).
If Hashem is not behind them than why is he constantly doing miracles for them?
In truth, it appears to me, that the really reason(s) of not doing army service is much deeper than this discussion on the Rambam.
One thing is for sure, ALL the Gedolim of today are against the Bnei Yeshivas going into the Army. Rav Drukman, R. Aviner, Rav Stav, and R. Lichtenstein may all be fine Talmidi Chachamim, but they are no where near being Gedolim. Anyone who believes so certainly has never had a relationship with a Gadol.
We are required to follow the Gedolim.
???? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ??????
ROB – you write, “The sad silver lining in this whole matter of working people that the chareidim in israel are running out of people to subsidize them.”
No, the reality is that the sad thing is that all of us (you included) are subjected to a non-religious government that is at best “tolerant” of religious Jews and at worst “proactively set on uprooting Torah from Klal Yisrael”.
If Moshiach was here ruling over us instead, we wouldn’t be arguing with each other right now, would we. …except maybe over a Ketzot Hachoshin!
🙂
ROB – you write, “The sad silver lining in this whole matter of working people that the chareidim in israel are running out of people to subsidize them.”
No, the reality is that the sad thing is that all of us (you included) are subjected to a non-religious government that is at best “tolerant” of religious Jews and at worst “proactively set on uprooting Torah from Klal Yisrael”.
If Moshiach was here ruling over us instead, we wouldn’t be arguing with each other right now, would we. …except maybe over a Ketzot Hachoshin!
🙂
Sam2 – you write, “To start, I find it unlikely that you would claim R’ Kook and R’ Soloveitchik as “Chareidim” in any other context, whatever that means. “
That is an unfair assumption. Furthermore, you are wrong. I have the utmost esteem for Rav Kook zt”l. I may not follow his derech, but that doesn’t mean I don’t recognize his greatness.
You write, “And your claim that “Bnei Torah” (which is quite an insulting term used in contrast to his son)…”
I’m “assuming” you think I meant “Chareidim” when I wrote “Bnei Torah”. I never had that in mind. May I remind you that Hesder Yeshivas have Avreichim as well (of course, you call them Rabbinical students instead of Avreichim, but it’s the same thing. Long term dedication to the Study of Torah). Yes, it’s true that the Hesder Yeshivas have them on a lesser scale, but why are you denigrating their learning? Go to Yeshivat Mercaz HaRav and you will see that they also learn and pray with real Yirat Shamiyim.
@GAW – I’m sure others will agree that your first statement to me was pointless. You said nothing. ROB and I may quarrel a lot and not see eye to eye, but at least he tries to bring sources to back his statements. You have stated nothing.
@ROB – your request is justified. I ask forgiveness, but I’m not feeling well today due to the fast and am only keeping myself up to gain strength to daven Maariv. I will try, B”N to look it up and respond tomorrow.
@Trust 789 – you wrote, “Today nobody has real smicha. So you can’t compare listening to today’s talmidei chachomim with Mordechai.” You obviously concluded this on your own. Please bring any Halachic source that concludes the way you do.
In contrast here are words for thought:
Bava Basra 12/a: The Insights of the Chachamim
“Rav Avdimi of Cheifa said, ‘From the day that the Holy Temple was destroyed, prophecy was removed from the prophets and given to the Chachamim,’ [meaning,] even though it was removed from the prophets, it was not removed from the Chachamim.”
Ramban:
“The prophecy of the Chachamim, which is via wisdom, was not removed; rather, they know the Truth through the Holy Spirit that is within them .”
Ritva:
“There are those [Chachamim] who grasp many things with their intellect that are not within the power of the natural intellect to grasp.”
The Chasam Sofer:
In Orach Chaim teshuvah 208, he states that the Nevu’ah (prophecy) that was not removed from the Chachamim refers to that Chelek (portion) of prophecy that the Chacham attains through his Chochma. When he is learner of Torah Lishmah, he has intellectual attainments beyond his natural capacities and Hashem helps him arrive at the truth.
The Ran: Heeding the Gedolim
From Derashos HaRan HaShaleim
published by Mossad HaRav Kook * 2003
Drush 11
[ ]
Drush 12
Sefer HaChinuch: Heeding the Gedolei HaDor
In Tradition 27:4 [Summer 1993], Rav Yonason Sacks has an article on rabbinic authority. He quotes the Mishnas Yavaz to the effect that, according to the Ramban, the Sifri and the Yerushalmi support the view of the Sefer HaChinuch in Mitzvos 495 & 496, viz., that following the Gedolei HaDor is a Chiyyuv D’Oraysa, and defying them, an Issur D’Oraysa.
SORRY, I WOULD HAVE JUST SENT A LINK, BUT I GOT ADMONISHED LAST TIME I DID THAT. I’VE GOTTA FOLLOW THE RULES.
🙁
GAW – your statement, “I demand that YWN send an apology letter to the Jewish Press.” implies that you believe that JP was justified in spewing filthy words at other Jews and implying that we couldn’t care less if your sons die! That’s disgusting, repulsive and categorically untrue! Anyone that says such a thing needs to do Teshuvah big time!
You wrote, “Softwords – A Ger (not a Gur, but a Ger) is by definition not an Israeli Charaidi. They could be a Quaker (which they may have been, I don’t know). “
I take it that you haven’t read the book. Trust me when you read page 260 you’re going to feel embarrassed for jumping the gun and writing a silly statement. I wasn’t referring to these Gerim directly, but rather an FFB Boyaner Chossid brought down in the book. Don’t worry, we all make mistakes at times.
🙂
@GAW – I don’t understand you. I reread the quote you posted 3x and couldn’t find anything wrong with it. What does it say… “We believe that this new bill will be detrimental to the spiritual health of Klal Yisrael and are therefore protesting.” What is so bad about that?
You disagree? You’re entitled, but don’t start demanding that everybody share your opinion like the hypocritical Liberals in America.
No one at either Atzeres stated that soldiers are evil! They stated that the Government is Evil! We stand by that! We always have! And we were here first! The GRA and the BESHT sent Talmidim to Israel way before the Zionists were here! (Not to mention that the early Zionist did whatever they could to starve the religious community to death, literally! This is documented!)
Also, no one is stating that soldiers are not necessary. However, what is very necessary is not being appreciated by most because the reality is that deep in their hearts they don’t believe that Torah protects us. They look towards the Goyim and say, “they seem to manage fine without the study of Torah”. However, Jews are different! It is a Halacha! HaKol Kol Yaakov! It is our Kol Torah that protects us! The rest is hishtadlus that is necessary only because of the Chet HaRishon.
As far as the wicked Yori Yanover’s article, his article was written with immense hatred. That is why they fired him.(OK, admittedly they also fired him to save their own skins.)
So on the one hand we have a protest to protect the Torah and on the other hand we have a man that hates. So what exactly is your problem?
@ROB – you wrote, “…when was the last time the chareidim ever thanked the soldiers for protecting them?”
I invite you to buy the book “The Mountain Family” and turn to page 260. (BTW – excellent book! You will not regret buying it!)
No outside links
BTW – while we are at it, when is the last time you went to a Yeshivah and thanked the Avreichim there for protecting Ganz Klal Yisrael with their Limud HaTorah… in either EY or Shmutz L’Aretz (like blood stained Germany)? You do believe that Limud HaTorah protects Klal Yisrael, correct?
Well it is nice to know that this discussion has gotten off to a good respectable start. I hope it remains that way.
I have a question for you. How do you perceive the story of Purim? After all, Mordechai was not paskening on a specific Halacha. As we know the seudah of Achashverosh was Glatt Kosher (Mehadrin min HaMihadrin). Achashverosh did everything he could to accommodate the Jews to be there. What halacha did they transgress? EVERYBODY held that we needed to go in order to show good will to the King. Why then were they all chiyav misah?! According to you they transgressed nothing by not listening to Mordechai. They weren’t required to listen to him being that it was outside the realm of Halachah. So why a death sentence on their head?
(incidentally, we see that most of Klal Yisrael messed up in Mitzrayim for not listening to Levi when told not to help out “build up the land”.)
koldmamadaka – I must ditto HaKatan’s comment. Your original post seemed respectful and sounded like a good Jew who was just expressing his feelings of resentment for his son putting his life on the line for his fellow Jews while others (in your opinion) are not. That is why I sympathized with you and decided to reply with compassion and understanding.
Your later statement, “…relegating my son to the status of chovet etzim v’shoeiv mayim”, however, is REALLY offensive!
On top of that, you seem to recognize and appreciate the sacrifices that your son is making by putting his life on the line for his people, and yet you “seem” to have NO appreciation for the sacrifices that Bnei Torah make to preserve Torah and Mitzvot in Klal Yisrael (which TRUST US they do).
Furthermore, I think you need to understand that if not for the Chareidim there would be no Mizrachi Jews.
Every Hesder Yeshivah has its roots from Chareidi Gedolim!
Harav Chaim Yaakov Goldvicht, zt”l – Talmid of the Chazon Ish and the Brisker Rav.
HaRav Tzvi Yehuda HaCohen Kook zt”l – Talmid of his father ztk”l.
HaRav Abraham Isaac Kook ztk”l – Talmid of the Netziv
Rav Haim Meir Drukman lhbc”l – Talmid of HaRav Tzvi Yehuda HaCohen Kook zt”l
Rav Yaakov Ariel – Talmid of HaRav Tzvi Yehuda HaCohen Kook zt”l
Rav Shlomo Avner – Talmid of HaRav Tzvi Yehuda HaCohen Kook zt”l
Harav Yehuda Amital zt”l – HaRav Isser Zalman Meltzer zt”l
DO I NEED TO GO ON!!!
In short, your son is sacrificing 3 years to physically protect his people.
The Bnei Torah are sacrificing their entire life to protect the continuity of the Jewish people!!! Do you really think it is easy to live day by day not knowing how you are going to clothes your family, let alone feed them? o you really think it is easy to live day by day surviving with the barest of necessities? And why do we do this? Because we know that without Torah Study Yom V’Lilah Klal Yisrael is lost!!
???? ???? ???? ????? – You say this EVERY day! what does this mean to you?
You probably think what I am saying is a joke, so let me tell you a story. I once stayed in a town where many of the stores had names like, “Schwartz’s ****”, “Levi’s ****”, etc. This small community hardly had any visible Jews. A friend of mind that was living there (they were starting a Yeshiva there) noticed this and upon meeting an old Jew that lived most of his life there he inquired as what was going on. The old man told him that there used to be a vibrant Jewish community there, but because they did not have a Jewish Educational System there the Jews eventually got lost and assimilated!!!
Without the CONSTANT study of TORAH we are LOST!!!!!
The Greek understood this! The Roman’s understood this! The Spaniards understood this! The German’s understood this! The Russians understood this!
Are you telling me that YOU don’t understand this?
koldmamadaka – First of all, Yashar Kochacha! May Hashem protect your son from harm and help him to defend his people well! May he give you and your family much nachas!
I am very tired now, but feel that your question should be address. Unfortunately, I am too tired to give a full answer. B”EH I can at least start you in the right direction.
As you and I know, there are a lot of things that we learn in Torah sh’bichtav and Torah sh’baal Peah that are not easy to swallow.
Hashem says, “?? ???????? ?????????”
Hashem’s wisdom is beyond ours and we are required to follow his wisdom, not ours.
Example: According to the Torah ???? ?????? are only punish the Din of Zumamim if they are caught “BEFORE” they succeed. If they manage to get away with it (such as get someone killed) they are not punished ???? ???? ?????.
This defies our logic! We would learn a ?? ?????. If a someone didn’t get away with it he gets ???? ????, then all the more so if he got away with it!!!
But the law is not that way. The law is the way Hashem says it is and we are required to follow it. That is being a committed Jew! Anything less, is being committed to ourselves and our own personal beliefs. That constitutes Avoda Zora.
As far as your question, most poskim learn from the Rambam that people that want to dedicate their lives to learning Torah are exempt from any military service. If this is correct, it is Hashem’s will and we are not allowed to complain, even if it is difficult for us to understand.
This website (YWN) posted a video recently of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, z”l speaking exactly about the points and feelings you expressed. It may help you to watch.
May Mashiach come soon and may the world come to a peaceful state.
(PS. In case you’re wondering, I’m not Lubavitch. 🙂 )
CR10 – you wrote, “2. That yeshivish Askenazim be more open-minded and inclusive of other yeshivish people of different cultures.”
I don’t know why that is, but I’ve noticed that too. Sephardim are much more comfortable amongst Askenazim (I.E. Shuls and Yeshivas) than Askenazim are amongst Sephardim (Shuls and Yeshivas).
Sorry, I can’t explain it! Maybe someone else knows why. 😐
CR10 – “I always thought Padam Aram was in Syria” maybe you’re right.
However, your general premiss is wrong. Respect and Ahavat Chinum have to come through seeing each others greatness regardless of any personal ties. Each part of Klal Yisrael has something that we can all admire. To like Sefardim because my mom’s Sefardi is not the proper reason. It’s nature to like yourself. A “pale” white Chossid from Poland has to love a “dark dark” Sefardi from Egypt purely because he’s a Jew!
CR10 – if you really want to get specific, we are all once Iraqi! Padam Aram is in Iraq!
There’s a relatively new book out from Artscroll called, “The Mountain Family”. Very inspiring!
Being that I don’t know you I can’t advise you. However, we all must believe in the koach of Tefilla. Why don’t you post your name “ploni ben plonit) and at least some of us will daven for you. You never know where your yehoshua might come from.
Akuperma – I still don’t have a clear picture of who you try to follow. Are you Eidah hareidis, Satmar, or Neturei Karta?
akuperma – I’m not sure where you got this idea that Agudath Israel, Degel ha-Torah and Shas. HaRav Shach, z”l stated clearly years ago that they share the same views of the Medina as Eidah Hareidis and Satmar. The only difference between them is how to deal with them. We are no more their friends than you. The only difference is you hold to separate yourself entirely and we feel to work with them in order to protect ourselves. I can’t tell you who’s right. It is two different approaches and in the end we will know.
BTW – which camp do you associate yourself with? Please don’t tell me that you sit amongst the reckless Neturei Karta hoodlums!
First of all, if you are a woman and alone in the house (or only with small kids) don’t open the door and ask them to come back later when your husband is in.
With that said, let’s focus on two aspects.
1) Aniyim
2) Money and Tzedaka
1) Aniyim – when people are financially secured and have never tasted poverty, poor people become a challenge to relate to. It is similar to a Meah Shearim chossid trying to relate to a Californian Hippie with long dreadlocks. What your challenge is is to learn to focus on trying to understand each Ani from where he stands. This is not easy and takes a lot of effort.
Here’s an example on how:
Let’s say a guy comes to your door and is collecting to marry off his child. He needs to collect around $120,000 for his daughter. Now, it is easy to say, “what right do you have to rely on others to pay for your daughters housing? I don’t even fork out money to buy my own children their houses!” However, let’s look at it from their perspective.
You have a daughter of marriageable age and you are trying to find a real quality guy for her. However, today the mentality remains (for better or worse) that no one will even consider her unless she comes with a considerable dowry of at least $100k. You are a Cheder Rebbe who earns a humble salary. Your wife works full time as well in spite of the fact that she has a house and seven kids to attend to as soon as she comes home. Working on a tight budget you barely get by living a very humble life style in which your children, wife, and yourself are clothed by second hand clothing and deal with mixed matched furniture and Keilim. Despite your being very responsible with your bank account, you are now obligated to take upon yourself a huge financial debt for your daughter’s sake. You have never accepted tzedakah ever and now you are forced to go to a strange country and stick your hand out begging for financial support. Despite the great personal humiliation, you are willing to do so out of your great love for your daughter.
Now after reading the above do you feel the same towards this beggar? Do you now take pity on him?
Perhaps you might feel that he should be stubborn and refuse to accept shidduchim that demand money.
To that I will tell you that I personally know a very big Talmid Chochom who after 6 years of his daughter being rejected purely due to financial matters went to Rav Elyashiv, z”l for advice. He was told “Pikuach Nefesh! You have to borrow the money!” He then proceeded to collect the nearly $100k to marry off his daughter. B”H she got married shortly after that.
You should know, I’m telling you that if you knew how big a Talmid Chochom we are talking about you’d pay him for the zechus to marry into his family. None-the-less, Rav Elyashiv, z”l told him “Pikuach Nefesh! You have to borrow the money!”
We can’t expect individuals to make the changes necessary in the Shidduchim scene. This needs to be done by the Gedolim.
2) Money and Tzedaka – we need to ask ourselves the following question. “As a general rule only 1% or less worldwide in every country are classified as “Extremely wealthy”. Imagine growing up in a lifestyle where you’d never know what it means to hungry if not for the six annual fasts. You’ve never known what it means to have holes in your shoes or pants because your parents buy you new stuff (top designer brands) way before that point. You eat off of the most expensive china that sits on top of silver plates that serve no other purpose other than to add beauty. You’ve never been in a car that is older than 5 years old, nor in one that is not upholstered in leather interior. You’ve always have had tutors for any subject that you struggling in at school. Your vacations cost more than many people make in a year. You sleep on the softest beds with the most expensive down pillows and quilts. Your father gets you into the most prestigious Universities by hook or crook if necessary. After graduating your father gives to a significant sum to start your own business and if/when it fails he bails you out of any debts and then sits down with you to show you what mistakes you made that you should avoid in the future. And finally, when the day comes that your parents pass away, your assets increase 10 fold. (All these example are pulled from cases that I personally know about. No exaggerations.)
Such an easy life! Doesn’t it make sense that if Hashem loves us so much he should give us all such Brachas?! Why only such a small percentage of people are blessed with such wealth? Does Hashem love the Rich more than the Poor? Obviously not!
W/O going into the proofs that Hashem loves us all and a detail explanation of what the Tafkid of Aniyus is, lets discuss the Tafkid of Ashirus.
Most would say that the Tafkid of an Ashir is to support the poor. I beg to differ. The real Tafkid of Ashirus, L’Fi Aniyus Daati, is to become a Gadol in Chessed and Rachamim like Avraham Avinu and to attach oneself to Hashem through these acts of kindness! That is their shleimus! Unfortunately, most fall very short of this. Yes, they give Tzedakah and perhaps with an open heart, but as long as you don’t recognize that this is your ability to attach to Hashem and walk in his ways (???????? ???????? ?????? ??? ???????) you are missing the boat!
In another words, REJOICE WHEN AN ANI IS COMING KNOCKING AT YOUR DOOR! He’s helping you to attain your greatness!