Softwords

To all those that are Anti-Zionist:

Note: It is only Mutar to give Tochacha to those that there is a chance that they will do Teshuva. In all my years, I have rarely met a Zionist that was ready to concede to any point of contention against Zionism. Therefore, there is little value in discussion on this topic.

[gentile (n.) Look up gentile at Dictionary.com

“one who is not a Jew,” c. 1400; earlier “one who is not a Christian, a pagan” (late 14c.), from Late Latin noun use of Latin gentilis “of the same family or clan, of or belonging to a Roman gens,” from gens (genitive gentis) “race, clan” (see genus, and compare gentle).

The Latin adjective also meant “of or belonging to the same nation,” hence, as a noun, gentiles (plural) might mean “men of family; persons belonging to the same family; fellow countrymen, kinsmen,” but also “foreigners, barbarians” (as opposed to Romans), those bound only by the Jus Gentium, the “law of nations,” defined as “the law that natural reason establishes among all mankind and is followed by all peoples alike.”

The Latin word then was used in the Vulgate to translate Greek ethnikos (see ethnic), from ta ethne “the nations,” which translated Hebrew ha goyim “the (non-Jewish) nations” (see goy). Hence in Late Latin, after the Christianization of Rome, gentilis also could mean “pagans, heathens,” as opposed to Christians. Based on Scripture, gentile also was used by Mormons (1847) and Shakers (1857) to refer to those not of their profession. – etymonline]

Based on most of what’s stated here the word “Gentile” means “Nations” which would be an English translation for the word “Goyim”. Thus the word purely would mean “Non-Jew” when we as Jews use it. However, there is the ability to use the expression to allude to “pagans” even though that is not the strict meaning of the word.

I’m assuming that the Rabbi who made that statement distinguishing between “Gentiles” (pagans) and “Noahides” (believers in one G-d) was doing so in context of Halachah where a distinction many times exist, but often is misunderstood by laymen due to their not distinguishing between the two categories (“Gentiles” (pagans) and “Noahides” (believers in one G-d)). He was most likely trying to clarify that in Halachah the term “Gentile” is often referring to “Pagans”, not “Believers in one G-d”.

hudi – Admittedly I did not read all the comments (only some), so it could be that I am repeating what someone else already said. Here is my opinion.

In today’s fast pace stressful world, a world that is both fragile and often without mentors to guide us, it is common place for many people to seek psychologists and psychiatrists. These doctors used to be referred to as “quacks” in my youth. The reason they were called that was because the only people that needed their services were people that were severely disturbed. Nowadays, many healthy people require their services and it is not as embarrassing to admit going to a psychologists or psychiatrists as in the old days. Many many people go today and anxiety is ranked as the 7th top psychological disorder in the US (I just looked it up). In general, I was surprised to learn that 1 in 5 adults today are treated every year for psychological disorders (just looked that up as well). Thus, if a person is being treated for anxiety it is not necessarily a “Red Flag”.

However, with that said, there are several things for you need to clarify and consider before going out with someone on psychotic medications.

1) What is the reason he is on Anxiety medication? Is he presently dealing with high stress issues or does he have a mental disorder? If the latter you need to know what and how sever.

2) How does he act when not on medication?

3) If he has a mental disorder what are the potential impacts it can have on your relationship if you get married? Can you live with those impacts?

4) Is he only going to a psychiatrists or is he also going to a psychologists? If he only has a short term anxiety issue then he does not necessarily need a psychologists. However, depending on the issue, if he suffers chronic anxiety he should be seeing a psychologists as well. If he is not, it may be wise to reconsider going out with him.

Note: It is incorrect to rely on advice and opinions of Shadchanim. They have self interests that can cloud their perspective in these matters. You need to consult with a 3rd party, someone wise and experienced in these matters and discuss it with him/her. Best if you can consult with someone who knows you personally and who takes an interest in your well being. It is also wise to consult with a professional psychiatrists or psychologists to discuss the ramifications of living with someone with his types of issues.

It is good that you are not taking the issue lightly and seeking advice. May Hashem help you get the right advise and help you make the right decision in this matter.

Who cares?

mw13 – shouldn’t we learn from Tzidkiyahu HaMelech’s mistake and also from Baba ben Buta righteousness?

The koach hadebur was given to us to learn Torah and to encourage others to strive to be holy. Any other purpose has to be scrutinized thoroughly before opening our mouths.

I worry that you may have done more harm to yourself than to Trump. Perhaps consider closing this topic.

…and to every other Yid posting, let’s stay far away from bad mouthing either Presidential candidate. Nothing good can come from it.

the plumber – Dan Likav Zechut in this case would be either 1) they checked into it and are careful only to drink what is actually kosher or 2) although they may actually be drinking non-kosher coffee it is being done b’shogeig (without intent to sin) based on misinformation.

We do not have to go so far as to make up unrealistic scenarios just to place people in good light. There are enough “realistic” possibilities to believe in to place others in good light. This is what is truly meant by Dan Likav Zechus.

I heard a story once that a Mashgiach of a renown Yeshivah was informed that a bachur was smoking in his room on shabbos. He went down to the room and saw that the room was full of smoke. Not coming to conclusions he asked the bachur for an explanation why the room was full of smoke. The bachur explained that he had a strong urge to smoke and so he smoked up until he needed to be mikabel Shabbos and then put out the cigarette. Being a smoker he didn’t feel the need to open the windows and that is why there was still smoke in the room.

In this story we see that the other student who informed on him jumped to conclusions when he saw the smoke. All he had to do was think realistically and he could have easily came to the correct conclusion.

lilmod ulelamaid – if we think about it a little deeper we’ll understand that the halacha is explaining what materialistic items bring people simcha. For Men – good food. For Kids – Candies and treats. For Women – dresses and jewelry. It shouldn’t be understood that women must receive clothing from men (and if not they won’t be happy), rather it is stating that men MUST buy their wives presents for the Chag even if financially tight. Of course, if a woman is not married and independent she should buy herself a nice dress or jewelry for the Chag (even if she’s trying to save money). Hopefully, girls in such situation should be zoche to get married soon and have the extra joy of receiving a present from their husbands.

When Hashem created the world for man he created a Malach called Satan who’s job it is to prevent man from serving Hashem. Satan asked Hashem, “Why do you want me to try to stop them from serving you”? Hashem replied, “So that they will receive reward by listening to me and not you”. “How shall I stop them from doing mitvot?”, ask Satan. “Get them occupied with pursuing their desires”, responded Hashem. The Satan then asked, “…but how will I get them to stop learning your Holy Torah? After all, it brings incredible joy to whoever toils in it and each word makes them holy! Besides the reward in Olam Habah is unimaginable! What in the world could I ever use to draw them away from learning Torah?!” “Simple…”, retorted Hashem, “Politics”!

An interesting thought came to my head after reading ubiquitin’s comment. Did anyone else notice that while we are all arguing whether the title “JB” should be dropped or not, not one person spoke disparagingly about Rav Soloveitchik, even those that may disagree with some of his Hashgafic teachings? That says something very positive about him and also about all of us!

Gmar Chatima Tova!

writersoul – thanks for your comment. I think the problem in this case is that the Brisker Dynasty is B”H so full of Gedolim, Chochomim, and Chashuvim, it is necessary to distinguish one from the other and that is the main reason the label “JB” stuck. I don’t know what goes on today, but in my Yeshiva years we never used the term to disparage him. Yes, we did not hold of his shitot, but that did not mean that we felt the need to disparage him (at least not in my circles). Unfortunately, the term “the Rav” can not be use and for two reasons. 1) It is too vague to understand which Rav is being referred to (I believe Rav Kook was also referred to as “The Rav” by his talmidim). 2) Most would assume you are talking about their Rosh Yeshiva. Thus, a more direct title is necessary. The Yeshivish world did not create this title, but in time adopted it into their lexicon.

y1234 – Coming from a Black Hat Yeshivah background where we are accustomed to talking to Rabbanim in 3rd person I too was terribly bothered by this title “JB” and found it difficult to refer to him in that manner. However, commentator Joseph is correct. This title was not given to him by the Yeshivish world, but rather from his Talmidim. I don’t know details, so I’ll assume that commentator Joseph is right that he gave himself that title. If he did so it was probably to distinguish himself from his cousin Rav Berel Soloveichik z”l (both were named Yosef Dov after the Beis HaLevi). The Yeshivish world probably accepted this title used being that it helped distinguish which Rav Yosef Dov was being spoken about.

It should be noted that a lack of understanding of Kavod was unfortunately an issue in the early days in America. I was told by someone who was close to Rav Moshe Feinstein, z”l that his first talmidim used to refer to him as “the Chief”. I don’t believe that anyone meant to be disrespectful. They just didn’t grow up with the concept of speaking in 3rd person or giving illustrious titles.

Joseph – thank you for the marei makomot and for all the other info you posted. I’ll try to look it up today. However, in regards to all your proofs, I’m afraid that your effort will probably go to waste. The problem is that most of the people that post here aren’t interested in hearing another side. They just want to complain and state that they are right. That’s why I usually stay away from the CR. I have an interest to hear people’s sides to any given issue. However, I am not interested in people that just want to shoot their mouths off. It would be nice if everyone could walk away with an appreciation having learnt something new even if we don’t agree with each other.

BTW – I noticed that MOSHE S never made a single comment after starting the topic, nor did he ever thank any of the commentators for giving him answers (or at least trying).

Moderator – maybe it’s about time to close this topic?

There are many posters who do not fit that description but are just less vocal. I will be moichel on their behalf.

Avi K – I have to agree with others that you have a tendency to nitpick which is unhealthy. An analogy is not supposed to be analyzed with a fine tooth. Rather it is a comparison of the main point. My main point was that it is well known that the Gedolim of each generation seek out those that will be the next Dor’s Gedolim and reveal them at the right time. If you come from a DL background it could be that this concept was never told to you.

In regards to Daat Torah, in light of the topic at hand (Zionism-Apikorsos?) and in light of your definition of “Daat Torah (…means that gedolim have either a mystical power… to decide questions which are not halachic.) I fail to see what “Daat Torah” has to do with what the Status of Zionism is. Both HaRav Kook, z”l and those Gedolim that opposed him in regards to Zionism held their opinions purely from a Halachic perspective, each bringing Torah sources to back their discussions. This is no different than any other halachic argument. Even those topics such as “serving in the army”, “working vs. Kollel”, “voting”, “taking money from the Medina”, etc. the Poskim (including Rav Druckman and other leading DL poskim) are all arguing their side purely from a Halachic perspective, not from Political or personal preference. All the more so, from a “mystical” power. Daat Torah plays no role here (based on your definition).

As far as the topic at hand, the poskim argue. I assume that those Gedolim that oppose Zionism and call it Apikorsos are basing it on their understand of the driving force behind Modern Zionism and what are the Gedarim that constitute Apikorsos.

rabbiofberlin – sorry, but even before I clicked “Send Post” I already anticipated your question and decide I’m not going to go there. Sorry to disappoint. You’ll have to figure it out yourself.

🙂

As far as your, “the apparent infallibility of Rabbonim for one”, that is a machlokes Rishonim. I’m sure, your being a “Rabbi”, you know that already.

😉

BTW – my intention was not to downcast religious Zionists as you apparently assumed, but rather to state that if not for their attaching their belief system to a Secular State, Religious Zionism could have had legitimacy liken to many of the early religious Zionists. Perhaps even I would have conformed to the idealism if that were the case. If you notice, the Gedolim I quoted above were down casting Herzl’s Zionism as Anti-Torah and treif. I don’t know what they would have said about Rav Kook’s vision of Zionism.

One thing to keep in mind is that even Rav Kook’s greatest opponents (such as Rav Chaim Yosef Zonenfeld, z”l) had tremendous admiration for him. They just differed with him on how to handle the situation of the time. They felt we needed to distant ourselves from the Secular Zionists and he felt we need to embrace them and in time they would turn back to Torah Judaism and Moshiach will then come. He also felt Yishuv E”Y would bring Moshiach. Others argued. This is a Machlokes Gedolim. Arguing who’s right is liken to deciding which Tanna or Amorah is right. That’s not for us to decide. Rather, our job is to decide which Gadol we want to follow. You Rav Kook, others other Gedolim.

As far as modern day religious zionism? Unfortunately, in my opinion, Religious Zionism of today is not the Religious Zionism that Rav Kook envisioned.

Avi K – I’m sorry to say, but your statements may not be 100% accurate. Below are quotes from Wiki. The lack of respect in the quotes (such as referring to HaRav Kook, z”l as “Kook”) is not mine. I would never do that. Italics are my thoughts (if it shows. Otherwise, in []).

While Rabbi Kook is exalted as one of the most important thinkers in mainstream Religious Zionism, there are several prominent quotes in which Rav Kook is quite critical of the more modern-orthodox Religious Zionists (Mizrachi), whom he saw in some ways as naive and perhaps hypocritical in attempting to synthesize traditional Judaism with a modern and largely secular ideology.

His sympathy for them (secular Zionists) as fellow Jews and desire for Jewish unity should not be misinterpreted as any inherent endorsement of all their ideas.

It would not be incorrect to characterize Kook as being a Zionist, if one defines a Zionist as one who believes in the re-establishment of the Jewish people as a nation in their ancestral homeland. Unlike other Zionist leaders, however, Kook’s motivations were purely based on Jewish law and Biblical prophecy.

Theodor Herzl Eulogy: “Of course, I spoke pleasantly and politely, but I did reveal the fundamental failure of their entire enterprise, namely the fact that they do not place at the top of their list of priorities the sanctity of God and His great name, which is the power that enables Israel to survive…In my remarks, I offered no homage to Dr. Herzl per se.”

[In my humble opinion the Religious Zionism that HaRav Kook, z”l had in mind is not the Religious Zionism of today. I’m not so sure he would support the views held today by Religious Zionists.]

[The question is why? Perhaps he realized that their vision was not in line with Torah.]

The Mizrachi organization was established in 1902 in Vilna at a world conference of religious Zionists. It operates a youth movement, Bnei Akiva, which was founded in 1929. Mizrachi believes that the Torah should be at the centre of Zionism, a sentiment expressed in the Mizrachi Zionist slogan Am Yisrael B’Eretz Yisrael al pi Torat Yisrael (“The land of Israel for the people of Israel according to the Torah of Israel”).

[The movement that HaRav HaKohen supported was one in which Torah ranked supreme. I highly doubt he would support a Zionism that is the antithesis of Torah. It’s possible that he would have argued Rav Kook as well. We can only speculate.]

[2][3] although he has been reported as welcoming the Balfour Declaration.

Rabbi Meir Simcha ha-Cohen of Dvinsk declared that ‘the Zionist vision is driving Israel to destruction, Heaven forbid’.

[Maybe you’re mixing him up with another Gadol with a similar name?! Perhaps you meant HaRav Simcha Kook, shlita from Rehovot. The only problem is that his Yeshiva is Hareidi and don’t go to the army, so I doubt he’s a Zionist.]

[5] and declared its political aims as being contrary to the Torah.[6][7][8][9]

He nevertheless cherished the Holy Land and in 1925 it was announced that he would be leaving Warsaw with his daughter and son-in-law to permanently settle inPetach Tikvah, Palestine.

[Love of Kedushas Eretz Yisrael and Yishuv Eretz Yisrael is not dependent on love of the Neo-Zionist movement. I am an Anti-Zionist. Regardless, I guarantee you that almost none of you readers (even those living in Eretz Yisrael) have the hanhagas that I am noheg that are based on my deep love of Kedushas Eretz HaKodesh. The Chofetz Chaim’s yearning for Yishuv Eretz Yisrael had nothing to do with Zionism! It has to do with Judaism! As stated above, he told his talmidim to stay away from the Zionists.]

I’ve come to understand over time that the CR is really not my place. However, ever once and a while I notice a topic that strikes my interest. Non-the-less, I’m not sure if I really should participate or not. I hope my time isn’t poorly spent here.

Sam Klein – seeing your post I asked myself (knowing that the CR is often used to shoot the breeze and for levity) whether your post is serious or not. My comment here is based on the “possibility” that your comment may just in fact be 100% genuine w/o any exaggeration. If this is the case here is my response.

It is a good middah to have Ahavah for others and to share in their happiness and pain. Non-the-less, the Rambam states that every middah needs to be used in measurements. Not too much to the left, nor the right, but rather the middle path.

You feel that your emotions for others is based on an extremely lofty level of love for others and thus as you view tragedy after tragedy and the sufferings of Klal Yisrael you become very mournful and broken. It sounds as you have fallen into a state of depression that you find difficult (or impossible) to get out of. It this is the case you must understand two things.

First of all, if you would have been zoche to know Gedolim personally you would learn 1) the burdens and sufferings of Klal Yisrael weigh heavily upon them and yet, 2) their tears are reserved for the right time. In general they are fully joy and life as the Torah states, Chai B’Hem (“LIVE by them”). Mourning for Klal Yisrael has specific times. Tisha B’Av for example. It is not right to be in a constant state of mourning. That is the Isur of Yi’ush (despair) which comes from a lack of Imuna in Hashem.

Second – It is not out of the question nor is it shameful to seek professional help to assist you in coping with depression and those things that trigger these emotions. Nor is it contrary to Torah to take medicine to relieve stress, depression, or any other emotional symptoms you may be experiencing whether short term or chronic. We live in a time where the challenges are much greater than ever before and the stress on us is often beyond individual strengths to over come. I highly recommend to seek professional assistance in place of forums.

May we all know better times.

DaasYochid – 1) I do not know Rabbi Kaganoff any more than you do. You have good valid questions, but they require a Posek to determine. I would not rely on assumptions even if those assumptions are logical. Not every logic is followed (Ex. Two people see a murder taking place. One sees A stab B. The other sees A pull the knife out of B. They can not be witnesses even though logic would imply they could.)

2) You mentioned “moving to Canada”. You didn’t just come up with that concept on your own. You heard that concept from Goyim and copied them. We all know how many people cried wolf when Bush was running. Unfortunately, none of them to my knowledge kept their word. A shame.

DaasYochid – I’m not joking when I say that your statement may halachicly be considered a Neder requiring you to move to Canada regardless of consequences as a result (like losing your job). By not moving (if your condition is met) you may be transgressing a Isur D’oraita! I strongly recommend seeking a posek (not just any old Rav) to determine if you are required to do Hatarat Nedarim. NO JOKE!

Just to add: In the future stop mimicking what Goyim do or say. Their ways are not necessarily in line with Torah and can cause you unnecessary agmas nefesh.

You could have simply said you feel like moving to Canada if such and such happens.

Excellence – The Ben Ish Chai is good reading. However, for Sefardim, most are noheg to follow Rav Ovadia in Halacha, so it is better to learn Yalkut Yosef if you want to know present day Sefardi halacha. The Ben Ish Chai was noted to be machmir in several areas and Rav Ovadia would bring down his deiya and state “those that would like to follow like that Tov Alav Bracha”.

I’m not saying not to learn the Ben Ish Chai. By all means do. I’m just stating that if someone wants to know contemporary Sefardi halacha better to look at Yalkut Yosef.

rebdoniel – basically you are saying “the reason Moshiach is not here yet is because of sinat chinam from the chareidim”. (After all, EVERY example you gave is one where a MO or DL was verbally attacked by a chareidi Rabbi)

In my opinion, your comment is a perfect example of the problem that is preventing us to be zoche to Mashiach sooner. In your righteous endeavor to state where you feel we are going wrong by explaining that Sinat Chinam is the cause, you fail to recognize that in your own statements you are showing your own Sinat Chinam. It is clear that you have a “disdain” for chareidim (I’m putting it mildly).

We have to stop seeing each other as “not one from my camp” and view each other as another child of the “Rabono shel Olam”.

I believe it is acceptable for us to feel that the other’s hashkafas are mistaken, but that does not give licence for me to hate you or vice versa (unless one of us is purposely trying to destroy the sanctity of Klal Yisrael).

As far as the cases you gave above, you brought down three cases were the persons in question are very controversial. It doesn’t surprise me in the least that Rabbanonim came out against them and rightfully so. I hate to say it, but it seems to me that your attitude is the type that if Yeshu was alive today you’d get upset that our sages came out against him and you’d cry, “Sinat Chinam”!

Although the general rule is Divrei Chochomim B’nachat Nishmaim there are times that Chazal are REQUIRED to come out harshly. You clearly brought out three of such cases.

Perhaps it would be good for you to broaden you mind and circles by learning texts from various sects of Klal Yosrael and even daven with them for a while. Get to know them up close and understand their way of thinking. Only then can you truly see the big picture and determine which “Derech” is best for you.

I’ve personally have spent time with and davened by MO, DL, Chabad, Chassidim, Litvish (and at several different places with very different Hashgafas), BT Yeshivas, Breslov, Sefardim, Persians, Teamanim, and Breslov. I’ve even experienced some very treif groups such as the Kabbalah Cult as well. I know the Pros and Cons of each one of them and that knowledge helps me to know how to interact with each one of them. It has also allowed me to see them as other Jewish human beings instead of hating them and view them as “THEM”! (If you know what I mean.)

Sadgirlygirl – I don’t know if it’s too late to add to this, but I thought I’d add just in case it’s still relevant.

First of all, going to get medical help depends on whether depression is a regular thing with you and/or if it is triggered by events or can happen without cause, not to mention that severity plays a role as well.

Assuming, base on the info you gave, that you are not suffering major depression, but rather want to know how to deal with normal depression based on the Torah, here are some suggestion what to look up.

Orchos Tzadikim – Shaar Simcha and Shaar Daagah

Pele Yoetz – Atzvut and Simcha (Interesting enough he ends Atzvut by talking about those who suffer from chronic depression and he states that books are not enough to help them and that they “need” to take medication. Here you have proof that taking medicine for such conditions is a Torah requirement and nothing to be ashamed of for those that need. Of course, proper evaluation is needed.)

Gateway to Happiness, R. Pliskin – you may need to turn to a Torah library to get this as I’m not sure if it is still in print. Excellent Sefer in English.

WITH THAT SAID I THINK YOU BROUGHT OUT A VERY IMPORTANT TOPIC FOR RABBANIM TO START TALKING ABOUT. I SEE NO REASON WHY RABBANIM SHOULD NOT START TEACHING THESE TOPICS TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC. PERHAPS PEOPLE SHOULD START REQUESTING FROM RESPECTED SPEAKERS TO START ADDING THIS TO THEIR LECTURES.

THANKS Sadgirlygirl FOR BRING UP THE TOPIC!!!

🙂

Sparkly – I think what you are really asking is why is smoking tolerated in frum society? Why is there not more of an outcry against it and why do girls need to tolerate it and marry smokers against their will? It’s a nasty habit and most girls would prefer without.

It’s a good question and I don’t have a good answer for you. I wish Beis Yaakov girls would get together and protest against this encouraging each other to tell shadchanim that they refuse to go out with any guys who can’t prove that they have not smoked for at least the last six months. When guys see that smoking will cause them difficulties in getting married they’ll think twice (hopefully).

You should be zochei to a mentch that doesn’t smoke!

kj chusid – you’re making a mistake about NBN. They don’t recruit (at least not to my knowledge), rather they provide a service for those looking to move to Israel.

As far as staying in America you are making a common mistake that people made in Germany. Need I say more?

Avi K – thanks for your post. I don’t know why no-one mentioned Mrs. Margolese’s book before. It sounds like her conclusions differ from this survey’s conclusions. One could conclude that her religious beliefs affected her results. However, one must admit that her methodology of personally interviewing her subjects one on one is far superior to their impersonal cold calls to absolute strangers. I have personally excepted to be surveyed many times on various topics and I must say that never have I been given an opportunity to explain or expound. You must answer the survey only by choosing one of the answers they provide (answers in which the surveyor is not allowed to clarify if unclear to the respondent). This leads room for inaccuracy.