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i have to admit i did have a laugh at that about mosherose. and i was also under the impression that he’s a moderator.
Yanky R. has a point though.
Yanky , i’m almost sure i remember the mishna correctly of “al tarbe sicha im haisha” see mefarshim on it. i’d rather not post it all.
Obviously all speach between fm and m (that aren’t married, or immediate blood relatives) should be kept to a minimal if they have to spk
Hello Kitty – if you weren’t planning on buying most of them – than why would you download it onto your ipod altogether? I would think because it’s a lot easier, you have them all there and save a lot of money.
i’m very happy this is all being brought to the limelight.
I just want to add from my own experience. I was a “normal” “regular” good kid who never had a thought about going OTD, i was respectful, studious, did well, yes had a few run ins with teachers or kids in class occasionally, all normal. But i had a few REALLY bad teachers who should have never stepped foot into ANY classroom. I suffered TERRIBLY but b”h i was always very close to my parents and tehy backed me all the way. (don’t worry i got “petch” too sometimes) It is a HUGE achrayis to be in chinuch. Funny enough when the time came for me to go to work a lot of people kept on saying i should go into chinuch. i wam SO reluctant about it. It’s sooo frightening.
I also want to mention here (i’ve mentionned it in another post too) that there can be very “frum” kids who seem totally normal, part of the fold and everything but have HUGE major questions thta MUST be addressed. Many times they themselves are scared to ask there questions bacause they know it “shouldn’t be a question”, they’re scared of the response and their teacher and fellow classmates acceptance. Once a child already is showing outer signs of “bumming out” (boy -colored shirts, denim colored kappel…girls- gets more… untznius…)it has already gone VERY VERY far. They’ve already gone through LOTS of inner turmoil when they were very “yehsivish” and “frum”.
i see that here again some are saying you can’t give excuses for going off and others that it’s because of x,y, and z. Its neither. You can’t say that it’s totally not their fault they were abused… whatever and they went off. Yes there is reasoning and great causing factor but they had bechira. It’s both.
For ALL kids one huge “remedy” is UNCONDITIONAL LOVE . note i said ALL. kal vechomer for kids that are at risk and OTD.
sms007 – no one is saying its not hard to move on. It is. i’ve gone through experiences myself, and it seems many pple on this thread have also. Yes, time heals, but i still don’t see the use in bringing it up yrs later. It just revisits all the pain , why go there if you’re already past it?
rebbetzin – be careful with your wording “if it’s the accepted thing to do (for a yeshivish person) then do it…
there can be (and are) many things that have become accepted in the “yeshivishe velt” to do that are NOT correct and right. i’d rather not go into them.
But yes, clothing IS significant, and we dress differently than the goyim to show were different…
see the brachos and klalos in devarim. Don’t need any greater havtachos than the Torah itself.
da – i know, i’ve tried reading them a few times, but it seems that the halacha is more chomur.
blinky – copying music onto something is VERY different than borrowing. borrowing is temparary – you’ll return it, and if it’s given as a gift you’ll keep it. What’s going on with music when you copy it – both have hanoa and both are using it but only one bought it, The producer loses money. But if your posek says it’s ok do whatever your told.
blinky – thats pretty scary. Your sure it was only that?
jewishgirl
that’s exactly what were saying. That girls know they should be tzniusdik but they’re not explained what it causes men to think… when they see pritzus.
a few months ago i asked this shaila when i was thinking of getting an ipod. THe answer i received was that if you own the cd, then you can load it, otherwise you shouldn’t. He said that if the cd has a “leasing agreement” (notice many do) he said it’s more chomur but still ok if you bought it. (i know someone who buys cds, loads them onto their ipod and throws out the cds. )
i’m curious to know about the 5 year thing – if its 5 ysr or older you don’t have to buy it. i’ll check it out.
oomis, i agree 100%. i once made a comment about not attracting men or something like that to a girl and she just thought i was crazy. I couldn’t believe her complete and total innocence, and i didn’t know what to say, i just left it as it was.
lesschumros – that’s an interesting observation. b”h i never stuttered but i do tend to talk quickly. People are always complaining i talk too fast, i try to slow down but it doesn’t always help. I guess my mind doesn’t go as fast as yours causing me to stutter, which i’m quite grateful for!
cb1 – i WOULD mind if other people besides this one has found out who i am. One of the best things about this is that its anonymous. and i can post my true opinion, and people will argue/agree and discuss all anonymously.
Although i don’t think i’ve ever posted something that is out of character for myself, sometimes i have something to share, but i’m scared that someone who knows me will put everything together and chap who i am. Basically sometimes my opinions or comments would be too revealing.
oomis- pay close attention to my wording “most girls simply don’t chap” (spking about the fact that men can have tayvos and thoughts when they see them…) and SOMETIMES dress in a very untzniusdike fashion…” i purposefully didn’t write any specifics – yeshivish/non yeshivish, very frum/not as frum, because there are people who dress b’tznius and not b’tznius in all circles. and yes unfortunately sometimes BY girls dress in a manner that is untzniusdik a”p HALACHA, not any sensitivities like you mentioned abt cap – sleeves.(I actually once heard that different gedolim came out and said its assur, i wonder if its true. Many times people make up things in their names. But a”p HALACHA i can’t see why it would be assur, maybe as a sensitivity… that’s something else.)
Smartcookie – no! i only know one person on here, and that person knows who i am and that’s it. I have NO CLUE who anyone else is and i don’t think anyone else knows who i am. (at least i hope so!)
wellinformedyid – you are so right. Most girls simply don’t chap anything, and they dress the way they do , sometimes in a very untzniusdike fashion simply because that’s whats in style/peer pressure/because they like it. I have realized that it is simply something girls have great difficulty understanding, but they just have to accept it as fact, and dress accordingly. (Obviously they shouldn’t only dress and act betznius because of this, but because it’s a tzivuy Hashem.)
blinky – believe me i tried. Then the collars are bigger… then you have to pull it by the neck and it pulls by the sleeves and becomes tighter… whatever. It’s frustrating that FRUM manufacturers and FRUM stores can’t manufactor and sell a completely tzniusdik shell! (that actually goes to a bunch of clothing too.)
i don’t think you should confront him at all. I had a horrible experience in 8th grade with a teacher. I won’t go into detail but it was VERY bad. I moved on, and completely put it behind me. Maybe the person shouldn’t have been teaching, maybe they were wrong, and probably i was also wrong. But why call them up now, so many yrs later and bring all the pain up again? what’s the use? unless you do need him for something. He is most likely not going to apologize.
Another story with false accusation happened to someone very close to me, and yrs later if someone was choshed beksheirim this person, they would become SO hurt and bring up the story that happened when the teacher (that case a few teachers and also the PRINCIPAL) falsely accused them. Yes, mechanchim and mechanchos have a HUGE achryais, it’s very scary, and they need a lot of siyata dishmaya.
I think – Just put it behind you, there’s no use in bringing it up again.
another big problem is if the teachers aren’t good examples and wear things that aren’t 100% sometimes 100% assur, than what type of mssgs are we sending our girls?
myfriend i agree 100% about the sleeves being too tight nowadays however i’m almost sure that covering the arms is a dirabanon (das yehudis) and covering the trunk of body and legs is das moshe – a dearaysa. Yes it’s very sad that i can’t find one decent company that makes shells in a tzniusdike fashion with ample room for the hands.
musiclover – i am doing what i love. and i abosolutely LOVE it, my heart is in it and i throw myself into, however everyone is screaming taht you can’t support a family like this, it barely pays the bills… what am i supposed to do? I actually asked a shaila cuz i once leanred from the chovos halvavos, that if its bashert that youll be rich Hashem will send you the money through whatever work you do, and that one should chose a job/profession that they like and that they identify with. The posek said he didn’t have an answer because this sounds like the opposite of the gemara- That you should take a job that’s profitable.
i wouldn’t have picked that one up! thanks for the info “oyveykidsthesedays”
mosherose –
where do you come to these funny conclusions? a generation or 2 ago there was not sophisticated technology like there is today, and children died very quickly and easily from the smallest virus/ flu. Ask your grandparents/anyone from that generation. My grandmother came from a family of 16 and 2 passed away very young. I’m sure there were many cases of tay-sachs and children died r”l yet they didn’t know what it was. I know of a couple that wasn’t checked before they got married because at that time it wasn’t so accepted especially in their circles. (pple were still against dor yeshorim) and unfortunately they had twins with tay-sachs that nebach passed away. A person has to do his hishtadlus and believe it’s all Hashem and that his hishtadlus has no power, that’s the test.
you know very well your looking for arguments. i’m not making things up. your totally mixing yotzros. You know that the issur of yichud doesn’t apply to blood reltives: parents grandparents children grandschildren and siblings. Yet it does apply to nieces nephews aunts and uncles.
mosherose – each partner has their place and a women has a tremendous koach too “behind the scenes” isnt that why the wife is called “akeres habayis” has the koach to be oker or ikur. Same r’ yossi called wife bayisi not ishti…and many others yes husband should be treated like the king, but for any shalom bayis to work there has to be MUTUAL RESPECT.
obviously he shouldn’t be wearing jeans. But dont be a two facer. In life you have to BE WHO YOU ARE. and not be scared of what everyone’s saying or thinking.
moshe rose – i will check that one up
mosherose – you better check taht out again. I was saying taht if your not allowed to talk to a niece cuz she is allowed to marry you than kal vechomer for a nephew adn aunt which is one of the assur marriages. Obviously none should stam be shmoozing, but i was once told that an aunt/uncle doesn’t have a yetzer hara for a niece or nephew cuz it’s family. In general women and men no matter how close ( brother and sister in laws) shouldnt stam shmooze. Note i said SHOULDN’t this doesn’t fall into catogory of assur.
mosherose – see the Shulchan aruch again. It’s not streight out assur. Its very wrong and one shouldn’t do it, however there is a difference between straight out halacha, and things one SHOULDNt do.
I mamish don’t understand what’s the whole argument about. Why would someone want to publicize their most precious relationship? Why parade around showing off your most intimate close relationship? A prized possession is hidden, why are we trying to show off our most deep, and close relationship between husband and wife in public? IN GENERAL if someone has to keep on showing off a relationship, it shows they’re not secure with it. Why is this even an argument? Once my family was actually discussing this s”a cuz we saw a couple holding hands, it came out that you can’t say 100% assur but definitely on the border. As Mod 80 said – it’s very sad that this is even a discussion, to the generations before us there was no question.
Wolf – holding hands with a down syndrome kid is VERY different. Everyone understands that your doing it for HIM, and it is affectionate (although not two way – your doing it for him) – he wants your close physical contact. Think of it as little kids – they always hold hands, it’s a security of close relationship. Holding hands IS very affectionate, and VERY different than checking for lice. (although also only done with someone very close- not an ACT of affection)
blinky i know of unfortunately more than one such stories. Each case is different and pple have to do with what their rav paskind
wolf – WHAT R U TALKING ABT? the previous gen were MUCH less spoiled than we are today. Just a gen./2 older than us – what they grew up with, how hard they had to work, the luxuries and extras we have was probably beyond their wildest imaginations! Someone just told me that their grandmother told them that the toys she had for her kids were the finished spools of thread from the factory she worked in. (they were shaped like a triangle cylinder) We are SOOOOO spoiled! and it’s TERRIBLe chinuch for kids to grow up and get w/e they “need” (today needs are usually wants)yes its a balance
clearheaded – nothing your 100% right. it’s just very sad to see such a great yerida
b”h, no such worries, were out of towners!:) 🙂 🙂
peerimsameach – BE WHO YOU ARE. your not doing anyone a favor by being a “two facer” – i mean in the way you dress.
mosherose – then that goes for aunts to nephews too. Isnt that one of the ossur marriages? so that means that an aunt cant talk to her 9 yr old/older nephew because now she cant touch him, sing in front of him , issur yichud etc.? so it’s arayos to talk to a nephew over 9?
or “whats wrong about that?” how about “what’s RIGHT about it!”
clearheaded the difference is that pre wwI it was all about ideoligies. People were mamish willing to die for what they stood for. Today its all about comfort and gashmius. Which in a way, america has made its ideology about THAT exactly. (liberalism – have to say it’s ok and put concious at rest so they can do whatever they want, goal and reasoning of everything is for FUN, etc)
Health i agree 100% no matter how much someone can afford there’s no reason to spoil kids with everything they could ever need – (actually – e/th they could ever WANT) i once heard someone say it very well – “instead of saying why not?, how about – why yes? “
mosherose – that’s ashkenazish shabbos menu. what do you say to all the sefardim who don’t have cholent or kugel but these interesting/different rice and meat concoctions.
clearheaded – stop being sooo judgmental! No one really knows what goes on by yenim.
clearheaded you clearly didn’t read my whole previous post. no one said they don’t have complete bechira and that going off is not the answer/excuse
for me the cr room is never dead, i check it once in a while, but i’m not waiting for people to post. All of those who are go find something to do! Sometimes though i am curious if someone responds to waht i wrote.
clearheaded-
no one is saying that everything is not labeled in America with every type of yetzer hara being labeled as a syndrome… etc Yes at the bottom of it IS bechira however you can’t deny the fact that there are people who are nebach mentally not well and need to take medication. And no teen goes off the derech because life was blissful. Yes they had bechira and no matter what went on in their lives there’s no excuse but you have to admit there was something there. and the way to get them back is DEFINITELY NOT to start blaming them that they had a choice…
And again i’m going to ask this question for anyone to pls answer what does kids going off the derech have to do with mentally not well people?
shimmel better that they go to therapy and take care of their problems than pretend e/th is perfect and continue on with REAl problems that can many times come into married life and result in difficult shalom bayis. Why? because they cant put their pride and worries aside. We have to do what’s right. No one has to advertise the fact that they went for therapy, but not to go because worries of shidduchim? they’re doing more damage to themselves in the long term. (obviously if it’s a case that needs therapy) and for all those that are worried aobut shidduchim, i know a VERY special girl who a few yrs ago did go for therapy, and she is engaged to a VERY good boy.
Thenurse – thanks for the clarification
I’m a little edgy about sharing the sensitivities i’m talking about. but i’ll share some. I mean if working in an office with both women and men, neither should be addressed by their first names. Ex: Mr ________ Miss _________ and if needed when calling eachother also introducing oneself as MRS/MR etc It sounds so silly, yet it is very profound. It sets a certain HEALTHY distance. THats the way it SHOULD be. also not making eye contact, and only speaking about WORK related issues. and NOTHING else.
OOmis i STRONGLY disagree with you. It is only NATURAL for boys and girls NOT to be comfortable conversing and it should remain that way – even AFTER marriage. (Obviously not spking about with one’s spouse) Many tend to think that once someone is married they can now be more comfortable conversing with people of the opposite gender. They are GROSSLY mistaken. THe halachos only become more machmir if someone is married. It’s just that they are now more comfortable with each other. This is something that makes me SOOO upset and i see it all over.
here we go again under the guise of a different thread GENERALIZING. myfriend i beg to differ, i’m still gona hold my opinion and i have LOTS of examples to prove my point but i’m scared i will reveal my identity. Yes there are many more chesed org. and stuff like that because of the huge community there in “in town” places. and i personally know of some people who benefited greatly from these org. However there are many other things that come along with living “in town”
Once a very very choshuv person visited the place were i live and commented to one of the poskim in the community that they see the kedusha on the kids faces, that the kids have more derech eretz because they are raised in a calmer more relaxed atmosphere, and not raised on the street. I’m NOT saying that kids in “in town” places don’t have d”e… etc. i’m just saying a story.
myshadow , i’m 100% with you. Thanks for your “outburst”.
i agree 100% the finer sensitivities in language, tznius (not even spking about DRESS, but b/w men and women) have definitely dulled if not disappeared in some places. THings that are definitely not Halacha but simple sensitivities that were once natural are sometimes mamish non existent.
Maybe i’m very uneducated but what does “four Letter words ” mean? maybe i’d rather not know.
How can you all make such generalizations? Every teen that goes off has his own story and many many times it has 0 to do with mental health. i know unfortunately of quite a number of mentally not well people who are very frum. I also know a lot of teens that went off that had NOTHING to do with mental health. How can we just come and generalize?
Mental health problems is also unfortunately an issue that is still shoved under the carpet in the frum community. These people are just as sick as someone with Yena machla (cancer) yet it is NOT viewd like that AT ALL because it is a very different type of machla .
myfriend – you are obviously a very proud NYker, however i know for a FACT that the reason many single out of towners move to NY is SOLELY and PURELY for shidduchim purposes. I know of a few who actually moved back home because they hated NY so much. Obviously i can’t make a generalization about it but a nice majority is there for shidduchim and NOT cuz they like it. I think it’s difficult to like NY after growing up and living in an out of town community.