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on that note – by girls it should also be self understood, but whatever
wolf – ok whatever you say. i never knew bochurim also have “dress requirements in the handbook/registration” in thought its self understood.
kasha i’m seriously gona ask a shayla. I feel like im locked in jail if i can’t go out even over the course of ONE DAY!
also note – what about the gemara where the wife of aba chilkiya? im not sure went out to great him all badekt in jewelery and his talmidim asked why… so what about that? it was assur for her to go out?
No one is saying anything is assur mamish. Again its all sensitivities. And another aspect of tznius – not to talk loudly.
Mbachur- yes women have nine sichos and men 1 but they can control themselvs and use it in the right time and place that’s no excuse for shmoozing loudly and for a long time in the street.
wolf – are asking for trouble. I get very very uncomfortable when men say good shabbos to me. What should i do? i usually just nod making no eye contact. But PLEASE dont’ put other women in that situation. if it’s a family friend, ok i hear but c’mon.
rescue
i beg your pardon, why were klal yisroel commanded and warn again and again to kill out ALL the goyim in E”Y before settling ? not exact quate “so that you won’t learn from their bad ways… their avoda zara etc. ” yes a lot of things we have are from the goyish culture. but note : today no one wears black hats, its used to differentiate ourselves. “shelo shinu es malbusham” i’ve never seen a guy in a streimel. and hate to break it to you, but think of it, what would you think if you were a goy when you see a man walking with a fur hat in 90-100 degree sweltering humid whether?
culture is definitely not ALL the problem but it is a big chunk. AND don’t forget – even the goyim have gotten lower and worse thereby effecting us too.
sjs – note : i didn’t say anything was assur. I said sensitivities. and c’mon use common sense. if you want to swim swim, but you don’t have to swim in a bikini. If you want to tan, tan but you don’t have to lay out in a bathing suit you’ll pardon me. You can tan in basic clothing. No you don’t have to dress in shapeless robes but you get the point. no one is assuring anything. I’m not sure but al pi halacha its probably ok for a little boy to see his mother, the sefer i read said taht you can’t expect him to grow up into a t”ch. Some like to be extra careful with bathing suits, they use the chassidishe ones that basically have short sleeves and shorts. Some go in T shirts, and shorts, some just high neck bathing suits. but c’mon everyone can use their common sense on whats appropriate/not. (hmm common sense is not so common after all)
someone who kills himself may think he’s escaping pain in this world or i don’t know but he kills himself in Olam Habba too, he cuts himself off in all ways, physically and spiritually. He has no chelek.
very simple – to remind myself (and along with myself others) whats truly important in life
la guy
i know and that’s why i can’t understand why everyone makes such a huge deal about seminaries being sooo expensive. I know someone who went to a very prominent seminary provides food and board, and everything and charged 17,000, so can someone explain why is everyone screaming that sem tuition is outrageous while regular school for children per year is the same amount???
Wolfish no offense but thats REALLY a strange requirement, of all things!
im no posek but from what i know it’s assur to shave. Period. Doesn’t matter that so many people do it. (many people do things that are wrong, wake up and smell the coffee, thats the latest yetzer hara,”but everyone does it”)
i heard that using a trimmer is less chomur.
i know its far from a 2-3 hour drive (close to a weeks drive) and quite expensive but – LA is GORGEOUS and has a lovely community.
i heard – not sure if true –
a) don’t eat fish before because fish makes u thirsty
b)eat watermelon and grapes (s/o mentioned) because they both have a lot of water
c) its really gross but i heard it helps – to drink “salt water” put i don’t know lets say 1 tbsp divided into 3 cups of water and mix and drink, because salt retains water, and it will help keep you hydrated.
Have a meaningful, easy fast everyone!
“Many women cover their hair no matter who is around them. But women are not required to be tzanua in front of other women.
I don’t understand why the women would have to be covered. “
Thats exactly the problem. There is no Halachik issur however, there is a level of tznius between just a person dressing privatley in a room. Ever heard of the concept of even walls shouldn’t see a person? even a man should dress under his blankets. i’m not making this up , its sh”a if you want an exact source, to look it up ill get it for you. And have any of you ever heard of the concept that a child – boy over 2 shouldn’t see his mother exposed? i will have to look up the source again, but one of the gedolim said that you cant expect such a child to grow up to be a t”ch. Is it worth it? is it worth the risk ? and what type of chinuch are we giving our children? Mommy can be practically naked in front of other women, all sensitivities gone.?!!? and then we wonder why we have such chinuch problems. NO dont jump at me, i’m not blaming it all on this, just suggesting this can be a small factor adding to the big picture
well informed yid – yes yes yes, but its still not the right way to do it. I’m not making this up there were gedolay olam from 100s of yrs ago against the idea (regarding parnasa)already.
mod 80 – i am talking from experience, non of the kids im speaking about have freinds who ARE exposed to the media, newspaper and goyish books. Its almost in the “avira” (english speakers- atmosphere) of america. The culture just seeps into us unfortunately. And now tisha beav is coming, lets try to really chap how much we are in golus.
oomis
i agree 100% i know families where both are working and full time home help. very sad, basically the cleaning lady is raising the kids. Time will tell how those kids turn out. but a father learning and mother working IS NOT a contradiction to the fact that the parents ARE involved in their lives and close to their children. My opinion is that its very much dependent on the parent themselves regardless of working or not, how close they’ll be to their kids. Yes automatically a “stay at home mom” will be more involved. but still a lot has to do with the individual.
well informed yid – i agree 100% to the begining of your post that it stems from a desire to be like the goyim. However, i truly beg your pardon but – MANY MANY MANy frum homes DO NOT allow any goyish books, magazines, newspapers etc into their homes yet their daughters still have such a deep desire to be “with it ” Stylish, and many times NOT in a tzniusdike fashion. it’s simply because we live in golus, and whether we like it or not we are effected by the society around us.
Really this is the route of tznius which many have already posted. That I am different, i am a bas melech, i am royalty why should i care what the “peasants” (goyim) dress like. I’ve already said this once here i think but its worth repeating. Once of the speakers on bnos melachim said it so well, the story with Queen Elizabeth and her visitor was wearing the same thing as her and felt so embarrassed, she apologized profusely and the queens response was something like “the queen doesn’t look at/care what others wear” i don’t remember the exact wording but something to that effect. If we instilled in our daughters a DEEP DEEP sense of pride that we are royalty – its really the shoresh cuz no one can imagine a real royal person dressing in an undignified way.
why are we all attacking Yb613 he has a very strong point. it’s ok for girls to walk and go places but to congregate and shmooze in the street… well that’s another thing especially because girls tend to be very loud. pardon me all you females out there but you know, girls do tend to be very loud when they get together. And for those who said that the navi wasn’t only telling girls “hatznaya leches im Hashem Elokecha” well, we all know taht everyone has the mitzva of tznius but it is exclusively stressed for females in certain areas. (not like i have the right to put my agreement on a mitzva, but everyone can agree that it’s a mitva which makes a lot of sence) Don’t kid yourself.
speaking about judging i once heard that if something someone else is doing really bothers you, it’s a reflection of what you have to fix in yourself. I think that’s a beautiful way to turn around being judgmental. after all , none of us are perfect, were all here to work on ourselves
says who – its not only you who doesn’t think its a good idea. Gedolim (i’d rather not mention who) from @ least 400 years ago were against the fact that husbands would go away for wks at a time for PARNASSA. Now that’s talking about obviously poor people yet he still said its better to live even more poorly than to have the husband away. Its terrible for the husband, wife and children. No one gains. It’s terrible for the shalom bayis… and he was speaking about PARNASSA! here it’s more of a luxury thing, vacation.
every girl understands that one cant’ shave. What’s the problem?
What’s so much more difficult than any other time of year, besides no hot showers, and fresh clothes? am i missing something?
smartcookie – you wouldn’t lie but i’m having a really hard time believing that story. and if it’s takeh true, tisha b’av is coming up and it’s another one of “al eileh ani bochiya” it’s simply too painful to be true.
Why are we all making such assupmptions? i know families of all types. Some of where the father is still learning, hes for sure in 50’s and the house was well, lets say a little hefker not because he was learning but cuz of the mother. and lots of s”d the kids are unbelievable. Then you have families with the parents involved, father’s only learning… mothers supporting and kids don’t turn out that well. You have families that fathers are working mothers full “stay at home mom” and torahdik and children bum out and families with the same set up and children turn out amazing.
IN short There are TONZ of factors to raising kids and building a home. How can we all pin it on one factor.
Ch’V im not minimizing Torah. “??? ?? ???? ??? ????? ??? ????”
i don’t know im not that educated in these areas, but over the course of time iv’e learned the definition –
a chassidish person whose in style and with it. Take it or lump it. i hate this labeling business its really chitzoniysdik and immature.
i thank Hashem a million times that i’m from OOT and don’t have to deal with bungalows. For one summer i worked as a full time mothers helper in a yeshivish bungalow colony. (at least i think its considered yeshivish) I couldn’t get over it. For a few months after i couldn’t stop talking about my experience. Forget about the inappropriate gender mixing, which b”h wasn’t too bad. (on shabbos it was at its worst when the women would have a shiur together, husbands come from shul to get their wives… and you know the rest, shmoozing casually with…) A very elementary basic concept in yiddishkeit was missing – PRIVACY. I could tell you the shalom bayis of each bungalow on either side and even a few bungalows down. If you have any shidduchim inqueries, i could tell you which mother never ever screamed and which kids ALWAYS fought… This was the hardest for me to get over. Isn’t that what Bilaam unwillingly praised klal yisroel for “?? ???? ????? ????” ? what is going on?
Second complaint also really major. When i went down to the pool, i was really in for a shock. Women WITH THEIR LITTLE KIDS SOMETIMES INCLUDING BOYS would lay out totally in bathing suits and sometimes very very low cut untznius ones basically naked (a bathing suit itself is untznius, but you know what i mean) this was way beyond my comprehension. Now if you want to go swimming, get into a bathing suit and GO SWIMMING. if you want to tan and relax GET DRESSED!!!!! i couldn’t believe that their was such a level of un-sensitivity, (excuse the grammar) how can we expect our little boys to grow up to be gedolay olam if this is how they grow up?
in short i really don’t know waht i would do if i lived in NY where the whether is scorching – (i pitty you all in the city now!)i would somehow find a solution to make it work. and im sure there are bungalow colonies that are more private and hopefully have better rules (if there’s such a thing) on how to come dressed to the pool.
i once heard that years ago, in a bungalow colony they caught boys who climbed onto trees to look into the pool area when it was woman’s hours. After that they built it better so that you cant see in even from such a position. I’m sure today they’re more careful with that too.
and btw about parents supporting- it’s very complicated sometimes. i know of a very very very wealthy family that supports probably all their kids, and not going into detail but i feel very bad for the daugher-in-laws. Everything has to be the way the parents want it cuz they’re supporting. I would be MISERABLE. i’d much rather live very very simply then live well and fancy but have my in laws stick their nose into every little decision of my life. They’re “mechuyav” to do whatever the in laws want cuz they’re fully supporting
to be honest i didn’t read the whole thread but –
who says you have to go to college to support a learning husband? my sister is married now 10 yrs k”h with 5 kids and is supporting her family without any help from parents and in – laws, or without any college degree. She is a real go-getter and worked her way up but this mishigas with degrees is really ridiculous.
someone posted that after a few years the wife gets burnt out and can’t tell her husband she doesn’t want that way of life. i know this is on another tangent but- Hello! A wife should be able and comfortable to communicate with her husband her true and honest feelings!!! one of the major keys to a good shalom bayis is COMMUNICATION and not expect each other to understand automatically.
one of you mentioned about oot community kollels. Well i also live oot and they do support very nicely. (your community sounds even better) however, not always are the kollelim open to taking new couples unless they have a sponsor. It’s a LOT of work raising money for these kollelim. i know of a few people who would LOVE to join the some of the kollelim here but couldn’t because there werent funds.
Lastly for all those who said that when the families get large and there are weddings and bar mitzvas,… and thats where the problems start, well i know of quite a few families where the parents are well into forties or fifties and are still learning. If both REALLY want it, Hashem sends extra siyata dishmaya. (again NOt talking about parents supporting)
wolf – exactly. i didn’t understand what everyone was so busy arguing about.
“if my girls want to wear a longer skirt with short socks that cover the ankle in the summer and most other girls are doing that also, it would be foolish to disallow it and be makpid.”
Hate to break it to you. But all too often the legs become easily exposed with such a combination. Any slight move can expose the uncovered leg. It doesn’t matter what most other girls are doing. Even knee socks under a long skirt (long skirt i mean till floor/ankles)can be problematic.
sorry i’m late on responding.
“Are you curious abotu where it says its assur to eat pork with yur wife? Or say loshon hara with yur wife? Or wear shatnez with yur wife? It doesnt say it becuz its assur all the time. So is mixed swimming. It doesnt matter if yur wife is with you or not.”
MOSHEROSE! your argumant mamish is SILLY! pork is assur with or without your wife, so is l”h… you know very well how much sense your argument makes. It’s assur to be with any other women but your wife (daughter, granddaughter, mother, grandmother)and BTW (i didn’t want to post without verifying for sure)- it’s 100% mutar to swim with your wife (obviously ONLY with her.) maybe there are certain restrictions but in general its Mutar. Maybe in your sh”a it’s assur. I’d like to know who says it’s assur. What’s your source – (NOT as in what’s your source that neting is assur!!! PLEASE!!!)
ch123 that was really well said and done! where’s it from? I’d love to get a copy. Sadly enough it’s all too true.
“Unfortunately, people are enamored with the uniform and not the person wearing it. “
yes but people do see past it. It may take time, but c’mon , i hope were not all THAT superficial.
yitay – yes, I don’t have any backing or source, just for myself the whole idea of “proving yiddishkeit and Torah” is correct, doesn’t sit well with me.
aries – no one is putting all the “blame” on women and girls! CALM DOWN! this thread is bringing to attention something that is currently a problem in our circles. There are many other issues that are spoken about – shmiras halashon, how many shiurim, seforim and speeches focus on that. What about limud Torah, Bitul Tora, Talking in shul during davening or krias hatora… i don’t believe it’s only me who notices them. No one is saying that all of our problems are because of tznius. We don’t have niviim to tell us. We just have to do the best we can. and this thread is talking about one specific problem in klal yisroel.
not to mention – some of us!
when i read the topic i was thinking more of how the news is portrayed as fact, yet its portrayed in a very SUBJECTIVE manner.
for eg:
1) see what England says about American independence and 13 colonies
2) see what America says about how (was it Roosevelt?) handled wwII – how much could’ve helped but didn’t.
3) current news, what are the FACTS of the Gaza blockade and how is the world portraying it?
4) the whole Emmanuel crisis. (I don’t know if I’ll ever fully understand it)
Basically it’s very hard (maybe even imposable) to find news/ anything that is 100% objective.
Even more – what an olam hasheker we live – look at the stress and importance gashmiyus is given. all the brand names that have almost become a “must” for our children!
meaning – the idea of trying to proove Torah and yiddishkeit is right
yitay- (responding to a post a pg ago, sorry so busy) that’s exactly what i was trying to say. You can try to up-route everything if you don’t want to believe. i’m not saying if it’s right/wrong, just all those proofs never sat well with me.
apushtayyid- i think i wasn’t clear in my post before. I agree with what you said however it’s a greater chiyuv for women when it comes to dress. and it’s different than boys/men because it can cause men to have thoughts… sorry to say but you can not say that frum fm would dress inappropriately if males had their priorities straight. as mentioned earlier many girls and women dress the way they do because they like it. nothing to do with men. Many girls don’t even chap what it can cause for men.
jewish girl – How can you make such a generalization about chassidish girls vs. litvish/sefardi? I come from an out of town community and the few times that i was “in town” i was really turned off by the level of tznius by both litvish and chassidish. It is a nissayon for EVERYONE. and each one has their fights in their individual places.
apushtayid – you are right about bochurim also being into all the “brand names ” etc and y are we blaming girls and women but lemaasa – yes men have a chiyuv and mitzva of tznius – it’s much more limmited and it is a womens obligation to be tzanua. it’s one of the few special mitzvos she was given (for all those who want to put on tefillin, wear talleysim… i actually once read/heard that corresponding to the special mizva of tefillin women cover their hair and upper arm) Lemaasa its a CHIYUV of tznius and men, well it’s not spelled out that it’s wrong to wear all these… although actually it is “kedoshim tehyu”
someone mentioned earlier that you can’t tell girls, you could barely teach them the parsha. (tuma after birth) you are 100% right. They are still immature and giggly about it all but when they get a little older it should be mentioned – i don’t think by the school . classrooms are not a good place for such discussions.
bar/bas mitzva kids are responsible for their actions. but there is a greater level of COMPLETE responsibility once they hit 20. (mefarshim in chaya sara, when sara imanu passed away… i’m almost sure its there)
Maxwell true, however the problem comes when people are running after every segula but the basics are being forgotten and becoming secondary.
mosherose – wasn’t it YOU who posted on something else that one can follow halacha and be a menuval bershus hatora? There is something known as “the spirit of the law” and somtehing that is YASHRUS even if halacha doesn’t demand it. Yes Torah doesn’t work with feelings.
i meant – “they told R’ ELYASHIV that it’s a segula – as if he does/doesn’t know?
Mosherose – you’ve quated this mishna a few times of “al tarbe sicha im haisha” i’m almost sure most meforshim explain it in a certain way. I’d rather not say it on a public thread. Check it out for yourself. I’m really curious wear the source is that says swimming with one’s wife IS assur.
apushitayid – WHAT? they told R’ ELYASHIV that it’s a segula? As if he doesn’t know?
Someone told me that at the tznius video they showed they kept reiterating that it’s a segula for children, shidduch… and had some story of “proof”. THERE IS NO SEGULA LIKE TORAH! finished . We should keep tznius, give tzedaka… and everthing BECAUSE ITS A TZIVOY HASHEM. Thats IT! and all these stories, it could be it was because of the segula / not but who are we to say that it happened BECAUSE of this segula….
it’s the same as any other thing that is offered by yidden and you can’t accept. Why are FRUM clothing shop owners selling untznius/unfitting clothes? True They shouldn’t but it’s our choice , we have bechira to chose the right from wrong. Applies to music… and anything else. (BTW – many poskim hold accapella is also assur)
yitayningwut – lemaasa when it comes down to it, if you don’t want to believe you can uproute and ask questions on every LOGICAL proof. Emuna exceeds logic. Were logic ends, emuna begins. I’m sure you’ve heard of the saying that goes something like “with emuna there are no questions, without emuna there are no answers.” (obviously there are but no answer will satisfy him)i don’t know the exact wording but you get the point.
artchill – that is not true! There were many people who were very shtark and frum and had emuna before WWII and they withstood all of the terrible winds of haskola and isms , yet after WWII they went off. My grandmother came from a VERY VERY VERY frum home. The things she tells me about the standard there… and she came out with her emuna unscratched and untouched. She came from a family of 14 and 7 survived. out of those 7 3 went off. (b”h 2 are now practically frum) My grandmothers family was very strong, and fought against all the isms of the time. How can you come and make such generalizations?
wellinformedyid, i don’t agree that all teachers who are asked questions on Emuna and don’t answer properly -they don’t know the answers themselves. Maybe a small minority but definitely not all. It’s because when asked such a question especially in front of a whole classroom of kids you are caught off guard. Aren’t there times when only after a situation, do you think of a good answer / response you could’ve given.
a few yrs ago a teenager (very frum, yeshivish ) whom i was close to, asked me some very basic questions. I still remember how shocked, unprepared and caught off guard i was. I had very scary and insecure feeling, because everything that my whole life was built on was being questioned. Not that i didn’t know the answers/ that i was right. It’s just a shake up. I definitely had lots of answers. It really scared me that a kid from a very yeshivish, frum home and school would have such doubts. I can’t imagine what my reaction would’ve been if i was a teacher and one of my students were to ask me such a question in front of a whole classroom.
Also many times people who have such questions, it’s really coming from a very deep source of deep intense pain/ anger. Deep inside we are all believers, “anachnu maaminim bnei maaminim” We have to believe that deep inside we really do believe even in times that we have questions. Deep inside these kids know the truth.
feif un – for your sake i hope that the rebbe apoligizes sincerely. But brace yourself for the worst. Have low expectations, and hopefully you’ll be surprised.
unfortunately i know of a story with rabbeim having pull and therefore being a rebbe. I’m almost sure i have the facts correct, but don’t take it for sure. The rebbe was found guilty of having abused some boys. They tried to cover it up and because he was related /distant cousin to the rebba of that chassidus no one had the courage to stand up against him. 2 people did, and other’s joined and he was almost fired, but than everyone said c’mon, he’s a rebbish einikel… the two people who had the courage to stand up left town. they weren’t interested in all the machlokes it became. now were not talking about anything simple were talking about ABUSE. There are many halachos regarding such a person. hameivin yavin