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LAVDAVKA check out that mishna again. The way we explain it according to pshat… not they won’t teach you that in high school, but double check that.
just as a by the way – talking about mixed learning as if we who have grown up separate genders… have missed out. I know someone who has lots of baalei teshuva over and one of the things he asks them out of pure curiosity is – sitting in a mixed classroom, how much of your brain was busy with classwork and how much was busy impressing/whatever else into the opposite gender. You can answer it for yourself. So even on a very practical, nothing to do with Halacha level, separate is better. (to prove my point, how many very very high up private goyish schools have separate classes? a lot, exactly because of this.)
i did see that previously mentioned (sorry if i’m repetitive) that saying gut shabbos to the opposite gender on the street…, please all of you who think you’re being so polite by saying gut shabbos to everyone, its NOT. You are putting the other person in a very very uncomfortable position. I’m not talking about the davakaniks who know very well they shouldn’t be saying gut shabbos, and say a very loud attention seeking … whatever gut shabbos. It happens quite often to me and i hope i don’t come across as rude. i usually don’t make eye contact and nod…
msseeker, you are 100% correct. I know many people who are extremely extremely like yes ULTRA frum and do not follow mosherose’s standards. Just remember, he’s for sure a teenager, extremely idealistic and not all that learned (if he can’t get the mishna “al tarbe sicha im haisha” straight, i’d rather not post it public but everyone knows the basic pshat of that mishna). He is also not married. All of his opinions will change RAPIDLy after marriage! i assure you.
yita – from what your saying i think that it does vary between states. The GED’s i took, sound nothing like yours in NJ.
BP i’m talking about pple in Europe, Eretz Yisroel and YES America. I know of people who are not chassidish, and not heimish – according to your definition at least, who do sit in style too. Maybe overall, chassidim do sit ins and no going out but there are people who are not chassidish who do sit ins too.
Dr pepper – thanks for such amusing entertainment! Leave it up to you to find such stories!
lamdanwanabee that’s hysterical!!! keep em coming!
bbyg –
“the teacher was a 22 yr old young unmarried shnuck, teaching a class of 10th graders!!!!!! big mistake!!)”
that’s NOT true!
i know someone who taught 10th grade her first year back from sem. (how old are you than? 19? maybe 20?) some of the girls in the class knew her from before because she was friends with their sisters/whatever and it worked. She actually really enjoyed it and they loved her! It really has to do with each individual case. Sometimes the girls are excited and happy with a younge single teacher because they’re usually (no klals here ) much more energetic and spunky and into it. Sometimes yes, there is problems with control but it has to do with the individual class and teacher.
if its a shidduch resume, give people who know you well, who you trust will give good info. You don’t HAVE to give toons of references. I think youre rav, a rebbi or two. and a friend/2 is more than enough.
ef613 – there IS such a thing as taking a nap. Ever thought of that? i know someone who wakes up @ 4 am on a regular morning, they go to sleep around 11pm but their schedule leaves them with time during the day to take a 1/2 hr nap. Try it if you can. It’s really amazing how much better youll feel.
so really it’s depending on how advanced an education you have from high school. I took it two years ago, straight out of high school, actually , i think i was still in 12th grade. It was easy because everything was still fresh. i didn’t get way above average on everything but i definitely passed without studying. Isn’t that all that matters? so who cares? I’m almost sure it had Algebra 1 and 2 . In my High school we didn’t take algebra 2. i got someone to teach me like 2 concepts that i missed in 3 lessons. (only cuz my parents were really into it , if it was up to me i would’ve taken it without even learning that, i probably would’ve passed anyway.)About the science i really don’t remember. as i said, i think every state is different, (unless im making that up) there are GED books you can take a look at and see if you know what its talking about.
a close family friend who happens to be a dayan in an OOT community once mistakenly opened the door for such people thinking it was a shayla. He has a very distinguished look, a very long grayish white beard, and striking eyes. He smilingly said to them, “i think you’ve got the wrong address/ do you really think you’ll change my mind” they smiled and walked away. If you know this rav, than put together, it’s really a funny story.
simcha613 – it doesn’t matter if it’s not that enticing, it’s still wrong. and you clearly only saw the outer circle of girls. Girls get VERY leibidig by weddings, especially if it’s a close friend. c’mon, we all know what any mixed function leads to, whether your married or not. Who are you trying to fool? What points are you trying to bring out?
BP totty STOP labeling! there are people who are NOT chassidish and do beshows. open up your eyes! the world is a bit wider than just BP!
d a – i think it may be different for each state. but yes, it is separated by subject. I took it. it took 3 hours a night for three nights in a row till i was finished everything. Don’t bother studying, if you got basic studies in high school, its farely easy and you should be done in no time. Usually i was done one of the firsts, NOT because im so smart. I was not the top of the class at all. It’s just easy. I simply couldn’t believe my ears when the instructor said something about, “if it’s not your first time taking it…”
c’mon, it’s just the yetzer hara, yes its hard to find clothes that is nice but tznius, but that’s what we do, for tznius we pay more. And if you know how to shop, you can find tznius stuff by goyish stores on sale… you don’t have to pay top dollar for everything. Learn to shop at the right times, after the winter season is over and everything’s on sale find cotton long sleeve tops/skirts… you’d be amazed. And believe it or not, i recently had something sewn and it was really incredible. With the material and the labor, the amount she charged me was still less than a regular shabbos suit/dress in a local frum clothing store. It was so well made that no one could tell it was sewn. Why don’t we do more of that?
a few points to ponder-
There are many BT’s who really know how to “fit in” and integrate that you would NEVER guess that they are BT’s or that they’re parents are. Sometimes, I am not generalizing, but sometimes you’ll find that BT’s or they’re children and families are more frum and more makpid than ffb’s. Sometimes you’ll find that they’re the one’s who really “get it” (i mean ‘get’ and truly appreciate yiddishkeit)i’ve had a few experiences where i saw this clearly.
I think a lot of the “discrimination” besides for the tahara thing comes from the fact that the BT’s don’t blend in, and stay with their “hashkafos” and ways of thinking and try to combine it with Torah and yiddishkeit. I’ve seen this many times and instead they end up mixed up/with mixed up kids.
Talking about kiruv and stuff- lets work on ourselves and the kedusha itself spreads. If one is in kiruv – im sure you heard the saying – while your doing kirvu rechokim make sure your not being marchik the krovim
sorry if i repetitive, i didn’t read the whole thread
but uncommon names i’ve heard:
Girl – Eynat, Zlaty
Boys – Gud
Names people resent having: Shprintzy/Yenty/genendal
max well… still waiting for what? i’m sorry i’ve been very busy and haven’t been here for a while.
lesschumrus , i know of plenty very very big gevirim who didn’t know a word of english, who were not “educated” and support tons of the yeshivos kollelim and schools in my area so don’t tell me that having a parnasa is only dependent on secular education.
mosherose-
i am in very close contact with my posek and i’ve seen many teshuvos about this, one is allowed to swim with ones wife. Period. End of story. Stop pushing chumrus on everyone. If you push too many chumrus… well learn from Adam harishon who assured everything about the eitz hadaas on chava, and were it lead to. You can follow chumrus for yourself, if your up to it but stop pushing it on everyone else.
that thing about chassidus and garb. it’s quite funny. i once had an argument with someone about who is “REALLY” chassidish. Either a bunch of young couples, almost shaved their beards… didn’t hold strong and tight to their hashkafa, only wore the levush… or someone who doesn’t wear the whole levush but is very shtark and strong in the hashgafos of his chassidus, more pnimius. i think today in general there’s way too much labeling. i got a call for shiduchim “so what would you say they are – haymish, chassidish, kalta litvak…” (i added kalta litvak) it’s disgusting! Were all here to serve Hashem, each follow the derech of their mesora till now, or how he feels he can grow closest to Hashem. Finish, genuk shoin with all this narishkeit. it’s all SO chitzoniusdik
i never heard of facebook till a few months ago. and from what i hear it’s TERRIBEL. nice to communicate with friends but people post their entire lives on it, no privacy and also it can be unsafe if you say info like ‘im going out of town” poeple can hack in and …
despite all that you have to say, i know of more than one choshuva poskim that say that it is wrong to have secular studies and taht there is no heter. From what i am aware of, most chassidishe yehsivos dont have secular studies, and don’t tell me later on they can’t make a parnasa. and for all those of you who said how did the sanhedrin know math to make caluculations… well we know that EVERYHTINg is in the Torah. “hafoch bah vhafoch bah dechula bah”, and yes there are some areas of Torah which you can say are “mathematical”
Dr pepper, i agree with that story, but there are serious shaylos regarding secular studies for boys, go through Reb Elchonon Wasserman’s tshuva, why did the yeshiva of velozin close down? because of secular studies, not even talking about English, language arts,… plane old MATH! Once a school already has it in it’s curriculum, and the child’s parents haven’t requested that he be exempt from those classes, if he’s not learning in beis medrish during those hours, yes its bitul zman. But were talking about a serious subject here that people tend to look away from.
oomis – you better check your seforim again, and i’m serious. Once a women is married hair has the status of erva. it must be covered. this may sound crazy, but why not wear a garment that looks exactly like the body – to cover it? Doesn’t that sound a little crazy? Doesn’t that defeat the purpose? The shaitlach today are even nicer, even more attractive and beautiful than anyone’s natural hair. To wear a gorgeous shaitel for your husband but where’s the heter to were it for everyone else? Check it out, the ch”ch has a section on this topic.
oomis – c’mon, are you ch”v blind? you don’t see the problems that develop in such circles where “singles” events, or whatever are? give me a break! Unfortunately i myself know of a few, that ended up … well lets just say NOT VERY GOOD
regarding sheitlach, seriously, i don’t understand why the kind of shaitlach that are being sold today are ok. The hair is suppose to be covered and the shaitlach today defeat the purpose, they are always much prettier than one’s natural hair. they only look more attractive and more rich. once at the y”t seuda we were discussing it and it came out very scary, it sounds like the CH”CH basically assured them. If you go through seforim the guidelines the shaitlach need are practically non existant. Not better looking than hair, eye catching…
SJS- i seriously suggest you research the halacha again. It’s a major major mistake that people make. NO ONE says that the knee might not be considered the shok. Maybe that’s not what you remember learning, but were playing with serious stuff here, as i said before, not with many other parts of the body, the shok if even less then a tefach shows the husband cannot make a bracha in front of his wife. That’s pretty severe if you learn through the halachos. Have a good shabbos
Mod 80 – “harmless things: sports, tv, movies, magazines, novels, blue jeans, baseball caps, sneakers” hat to break it to you but tv, magazines, goyish novels, (many times “harmlessly include love incidents) ARE HARMFUL.
OOMIS- you are entitled to your opinion and you can encourage people to meet or unofficially meet their prospective shidduchim in college/such type of places. Many are opposed to that, and yes there are pitfalls to the “yeshivish ” way of dating, where parents try to do as much research and everything beforehand. But don’t tell me that unofficial friendly dating is foolproof, in this area (aside from tznius,) there still is a much greater maala.
not only thank Him, daven to Him throughout the day, in your own language, even little things that you need, many times i daven to find a parking spot,(yes even OOT communities, not Brooklyn its hard in some areas)that whatever i’m working on (at work, at home, for klal or prat) should be matzliach and come out good… i don’t know everything. Were suppose to try to live with Hashem and feel and have a close relationship.
oomis – that reminds me of a funny story. A rav once told me “the best shadchan is Brooklyn college” and explained with the following story: a young couple came to speak with him. The girl was chabbad and boy skver (could be the opposite, may have mixed it up). He openly asked them – like hello? how in the world did this shidduch become? they answered – brooklyn college. Now obviously i don’t think your typical skvere chassid is in Brooklyn college, and it is hashgacha and all, but i would never ever ever encourage such a way of dating. Aside from the tznius aspect, what do you know about them? do you really know about their families, if the parents have shalom bayis, any health issues… i don’t know, some traumas that people experience don’t come out until later in life, after marriage. I would really be scared. Glad it worked for you though.
potsandpans, i can’t agree more. It is inappropriate and even a lack of sensitivity for tznius to start talking about dates to friends- Aside from all the problems it can cause.
just don’t forget – for all those “heimish newspaper” readers (hamodia, yated, mishpacha… bina) they are written by frum yidden, HOWEVER EVERYTHING MUST be taken with a grain of salt. They change a lot of things to make them more interesting. I know of a first hand story that happened to someone who were very close with. One of these magazine/newspapers interviewed and wrote an article about it, and for some reason some VERY SIMPLE and straight forward facts got turned into a whole drama. Hashkafa wise too – Just remember these are not gedolim and talmiday chachamim writing and editing everything.
what???? what are you people talking about! there are many ways to go out and meet a girl/boy other than going on a “blind date” or stam shmoozing with some girl off the street.
And as some mentioned the world is A VERY DIFFERENT world than it was even 15 years ago. In very yeshivish circles unfortunately i’ve noticed a great lack of sensitivities in such areas.
sjs –
ahum ahum check your sources again. ALL poskim agree the knee is part of the shok and MUST be covered at ALL times, even less then a tefach is erva and must be covered for a husband to say a bracha. The questionable part is in the rishonim if the ENTIRE leg is considered shok and therefore must be covered. Yes everyone! some hold (most don’t paskin as such) that the entire leg is shok and thereby must be covered. So yes it is very frightening that now it’s very in to wear very short skirts.
gavra at work – BJJ stopped that in recent years now they are only American (a few Europeans sprinkled in here and there)
SJS – yes seminary IS a hug luxury. I’m just trying to understand why everyone’s screaming about the exorbant price for tuition if local tuition for reg school is not that much more. Thanks for your ideas.
WIY – the problem is that especially in the area of tznius – so much of it IS sensitivities. It is a sensitive mitzva given especially to women who have (or hopefully have) these natural sensitivities. They should be natural to us. It’s just common sense that a group of teens / women shmoozing in the street can turn into a loud conversation and be untzniusdik. No one is required to be a brain surgeon to figure that out. The issue was raised here – TO MAKE THOSE UNAWARE THAT THIS IS A PROBLEM not to project what “offends” anyone onto others.
Be Happy – im so glad you said what you did. A very close family member also had y”m and said the same exact things you said. I hope it really opens our eyes to be more sensitives. Have a refua sheleima.
SJS answer #3 is not valid at all. I hear, ok the first two, but i know someone who ran a seminary for a few years and she said they made NOTHING on it. In fact, they were doing so badly i think they closed down. People don’t want to accept it but its a fact that there are a LOT of expenses involved in running a seminary.
As far as seminary being a luxury and pple trying to make it necessary. It’s their problem if they feel they have to send their children cuz that’s whats accepted now.
And dont you think that seminaries have a right to charge more than a regular school tuition? they are including food and board. And for all those who say , how come the yeshivos don’t charge so much- yeshivos go around collecting, i don’t know about you but i would turn away anyone collecting for a seminary.
the fast isn’t meant to be easy. Like Wellinformedyid said, we’re all mourners. But yes it doesn’t take away from the fact that it’s hard to fast.
gavra –
the problem is with both. teens and young woman. sometimes from the way they dress you’d think they don’t want to be married – they try so hard to dress like young teens.
aries – yes and no. Sometimes therapists can really mess things up and people trust them because they’re the “professionals” whereas if they confide in a friend, (true that only one of 1000 know how to keep a secret, gemara) hopefully they have your best interest in mind and for better or for worse you don’t trust them as much as i would think you would trust a therapist, simply because of the lack of expertise.
so no one has any answer for my question. Why are seminaries being harassed for being so expensive if a regular school charges the same amount minus food and board?
aries – the thing with a bishow is it makes it all the more awkward than a regular date. When you go out with someone, somehow it breaks the tension and uncomfortable atmosphere to a degree, but when your just sitting across a table in a room talking… i guess you can say speak about what you would on any date, but on any date usually other conversation pieces and topics automatically come up.
yechezkel said “there is no grounds w/i halacha to support anything that you are saying on this subject.”
exactly there is no grounds with halcha. no one said there is. it’s all about sensitivities.
according to Rav Moshe it’s assur to listen to music stam, for pleasure all year round. Many poskim assur concerts too.
i have a very close family member who had Y”m when he was about 19-20. B”h he fought it and was doing very well. He got married and right after that they found it again. B”H now he’s completely clean already for a year and half and they have a little baby!
after learning this specific issue in great depth we came out that if they are cut into mini little cracker sized cubes and eaten as snacks, then its mezonos, otherwise one must wash. I also double checked with my posek and he said one must wash on pizza.
wellinformedyid
i agree 100% but when the women do go out they still have an achrayis of being and acting 100% betznius
i have a feeling mosherose is not married, otherwise he would’nt say what hes saying.