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it’s really a branch off of ?? ????
oomis- not everyone goes to the beach to go swimming
tomim tehiyeh it doesn’t matter what the statistics are, no one wants to be part of that small percent.
aries, mw13, you can’t make a klal of why kids go OTD. Each situation is it’s own story, it’s own ‘history’ how can we come and make a klal? Yes you can say that ______ is a helping force. That the combo of no shalom bayis, internet,…or whatever but how can you nail it on one thing? and for each kid it’s a whole different story!
oomis “The IDEAL relationship is when two people who have so much in common as friends, realize their attraction to each other and deepen that friendship into a lifetime commitment.”
Marriage is not friendship.
Sorry to break it to you, the reason unfortunately yeshivish people divorce today is NOT because of the shidduch system. There are many reasons but the shidduch system has worked for generations and generations, maybe even in a more tznius fashion.
kasha, thank you so much for all of this, i read through everything and i hope everyone else reads through it too, (especially those who suggested or asked… how can go swimming…to beaches… hypothetically…)
aries, i agree 100%, unfortunately what you are saying is SO true.
can someone explain what this is all about?
for all those interested, there is such a thing as deserted beaches, where there isn’t proper parking… whatever. (obviously it matters where you live but i’m sure every place has it’s deserted beaches.)
plaid, i’m sorry i’d rather not say. all i can say is comparing to other sems we had quite a bit of room. I’d say pack as light as possible in any case because even if your sem does have more room for each girl, your still not at home and why shlep so much that is really not necessary. Again, like so many others said you only need 1/2 or less of what the “cut down” version is. But again it does make a difference if your sem has a uniform/not… stuff like that.
“The only way to get people to listen is to do something that bites – like, get a whole bunch of Rabbonim to sign that they won’t attend any chasunos where the girl is under 20/21. And maybe convince some halls/caterers not to service these weddings, too. “
mw13, sorry, that will never happen.
aries, you’re not getting what i wrote. I’m not saying there aren’t enough good girls. I’m saying it’s EASIER (not taht it’s easy alltogether) to be considered a good girl than a good boy. Because the boys also have to be a good learner, a budding t”ch. that’s all.
Midwest very true, i agree to everything.
i do have one more point. did anyone mention that beemes, it’s “easier” to be a “top” girl than a “top” boy? lemaasa, a girl has to be a yarei shamayim, and a baalas midos (geshikt…ok whatever) a boy needs to be a yarei shamayim, baal midos AND a shtarka learner, a budding talmid chachom. That’s an extra and it’s much harder ???. The girl doesn’t have to sit over a gemara for four hours streight and need the discipline to do so to be considered a good girl. She doesn’t have to wake up on time for minyan at zman krias shma, (only zman tefilla) and stay up late after night seder learning. there are extra pressures on boys than on girls. Thereby, there are fewer “good” boys than “good” girls.
btw, i know a posek who ONLY paskens by halacha and tells you , this is halacha, you want to be machmir do so, but this is the halacha. There is a truth that when people make chumrus into halacha, than people reject the whole thing, similar to Adom and chava and the eitz hadaas. But were talking about people stam taking upon themselves chumros.
i’m really sorry but kulos are looking for every loophole in yiddishkeit to do what we want. I have unfortunately seen many people with certain attitudes towards yiddishkeit that kills me. Attitudes like “it can’t be that it’s assur, the Torah wouldn’t be so strict…” not that they say these exact words but the attitude. (i actually did hear someone say regarding a certain halacha that it’s ch”v cruel!!!) Yiddishkeit is not always ice cream and loli pops! There are parts that are hard and we have to do them just like anything else. This whole attitude is from America of “vechai bohem” it has to be enjoyable, and fun. Yiddishkeit is delicious but sometimes there are things taht are hard and we have to do them just like anything else.
OOmis, i’m very sorry but people who take upon themselves chumrus don’t always have a gayva about them and make you feel like modern or whatever, if you feel like that maybe it’s because your insecure. You can’t make a generalization like taht. Maybe someone you know has that attitude, or the few people you know have such attitudes but how can you make a klal?
just btw, i know of a rav who was asked to be mesader kedushim and said he can’t “because maybe people in your circles don’t have tayvos anymore, but i do and i can’t come to a chasuna without a mechitza”. i thought his wording was very good, he tried not to offend them but his point got across.
lesschumrus, one more thing, no one is saying that previous generations weren’t humans. But there is Yeridas hadoros and today more than ever, the morality of the world has taken a plunge for the worst so we have to be extra extra careful.
lesschumrus i am astonished at you! how can you even bring that as any example? do you know how many meforshim discuss that? Do you understand the whole story clearly???? How can you say “Why is it so hard to accept the fact that our ancestors were human beings with ordinary frailties?”, no one is saying he didn’t do what he did, but take a good look at the meforshim. Some say he didn’t have bechira, i’m almost sure it’s a zohar that states that moshiach comes from yehuda and the satan would stop him from being born so it has to look “not so kosher” both by tamar and yehuda and by rus and boaz. But how can you bring that here? And not only that, but it shows us how scary it is, the y”hara , so kol vechomer… backed to mixed seating that should be avoided at all costs.
kapusta, good point, it’s hard because the pieces stay behind, so either we check that very well, after everything else is sifted and toss it back in with the rest of the flour. Or i know someone who throws it out, which i see no point in doing because than most of the “whole grain” is gone.
BTW, when we do make whole wheat challah we let it rise for much longer and use Wheat glutten to make it fluffier and not sooo heavy.
For those interested there’s also something called White Whole Wheat flour, by king Arthur. It’s better than pure whole wheat. (i don’t really understand how it can be WhITE whole wheat but whatever.) i wouldn’t know where to tell you to buy it in NY, i’m OOT.
shlomozalman, 100%, people make a mistake and there’s really two “types” of bashert. There’s a type that is they’re ruchniyus “partner” that they will grow … and then there’s “that was sooo bashet”. I was told by a choshuve rav, a person can marry their bashert and have sholom bayis problems, and a person can “miss’ their bashert and have unbelievable shalmo bayis. Basically, shalom bayis has nothing to do with basherts.
oomis your comment about the dog, really made me laugh. I live in an OOT community where there are TOns of dogs, and people treat them like – companions. It’s really scary, how they talk to them… someone once explained to me that it’s because dogs are very loyal and loving. You can scream and let out your anger and frustration on it and it won’t hold a grudge. It won’t be insulted and demand respect, like people do.
and a personal bakasha from everyone, we can talk about marriage but lets make sure its in a tzniusdike fashion. (you don’t have to get defensive i barely read the thread, i’m just pointing something out.)
sister bear, interesting! maybe ill try that!
sisterbear –
“And I’m sorry you don’t trust kids”
chazal tell us “?? ???? ????? ?? ??? ????” that’s not even talking about kids! to adults! unfortunately adults also get into trouble on the internet, and kids, well, they’re kids and they have to be taught. you don’t hand a kid a cell with internet access and say, well i trust him/her, they wont do anything stupid or inappropriate.
as far as needing a cell or not, it’s really according to that- the need. Some young couples i know , share a cell because of the extra expense, as the family grows they probably will get one. Today it’s become a need. Lets just remember what are wants and needs. I think that today cells with all this extra stuff on is really unnecessary. Maybe if someone needs it for their work, ok but it’s become a bit out of hand.
Truthfully, what does a 14 year old kid who can’t even drive need a cell for? (not even talking about an iphone, ipad, itouch…whatever else) what did people do just 15 years ago before cells became so popular. Anyone here remember car phones? People lived without it, and they were fine.
aries2756 – i teach in a high school that used to have a pay phone. Now they have a regular line and the students pay a certain amount, (just for the upkeep of the phone itself and it’s bills). The students are not allowed to learn how to drive, not even in 12th grade (and it’s NOT a chassidish school.) they are not allowed cell phones. I can’t say the students like the rules, but if you’re coming to this school, you comply with the rules. (i don’t see why you need a cell if you don’t drive, unless you live far and have to travel by bus or train.)
i definitely agree, however, many times the pictures don’t have anything really different about them, usually just pics of police, shomrim, ambulences, hatzola, or whatever but if it gets personal, meaning you can see the victim or something like that, than i would object.
one more thing, maybe find a rav you’re close to, and speak it over with him, because truthfully, no one in the CR really know’s you, and what’s good for YOU
oh c’mon , don’t fall into that silly trap that you have to be very well off financially to get married. I think you should definitely continue dating. and in the meantime obviously try to figure out what your plan is.
(sorry if I’m repeating someone else’s advice, i didn’t read the whole thread)
just a note on filters, if its for yourself ok, but if you have kids, remember the younger they are the more computer savy they are. I’ve heard that if the kids know enough of what they’re doing, they can get around the filters.
Just a story that proves how good teenagers are, there was a story probably about 15 years ago in a local yeshiva (mesivta age) well, somehow one kid got onto the computer and in a very short amount of time changed everyone’s grades. After calling numerous computer experts, they finally got someone REALLY processional, it took the guy a few hours, and he said it took the kid 1 minute and 20 seconds to do it, and if they knew who the kid was, he would hire him on the spot. (they asked all the kids about it, no one came forward)
The point is that kids are better at computers than we think (or would want to know) and we have to be careful.
anyone have any new good round challah braids, aside from the six and four braid ones…(start off sort of like a tic tac to and then braid small 3 braids , looks like a + sign, and tuck under all the braided pieces) and then the one that you make into tic tac to…
there’s a special recipe book just on challah it has great braids there. but anything else? (also aside from the snake/bee hive one)
i also have an excellent challah recipe i use all year round and sometimes even make whole wheat. (no one likes the whole wheat as much as the white) maybe i’ll post it next time.
mw , i couldn’t agree more. Great points.
some of you mentioned earlier, but it’s worth mentioning again. Many believe it’s the age gap. Think about it logically, in chassidish circles, they don’t have as bad as a shidduch crisis as the litvish world does. And by them the boys get married around the same time as the girls. About 18. (someone did once mention, that if there is a problem in the chassidish world, he thinks its because everyone is so particular to get someone from their exact chassidus… and just 30 years ago, they did “intermarry.” BTW, there was a “shidduch crisis” in the satmar community, after WWII. They asked R’ Yoel what to do, and he said, to marry sefardim. (if you ever noticed there are some vert dark chassidim)
back to the litvish world, think about it, every year a whole new “grade” of girls get out of sem and are automatically on the shidduch market. However, the boys, there’s no such thing. A boy 3-4 grades older than her, decides than that he’s ready for marriage so he has : all the girls his age, and a full 3 grades bellow them. I actually know of 2 sisters, who are 2 years apart, one married a boy a year older than her. The younger one than got engaged to a boy from the same class. (3 years older than her)
“I don’t believe the covering of hair is associated with the “loss of innocence”, but will drop the subject and get back to boys wearing shorts”
umm… apushuteyid, i suggest you take a look at Rav Falk’s sefer,
also Moq, very good point (previous post of yours) if i’m correct i think it’s Rav Moshe who says that that’s why a kallah doesn’t have to cover her hair till the next morning.
but it’s still the best way. It’s still overrides the theory of mixing the kids when they’re young.
“Yes, mixing boys and girls would result in more familiarity with how to communicate between genders, and that would make dating easier. However, many of us feel that it is not worth the aveiros that will undoubtedly occur.”
very true. It’s funny, this brings to mind, when my older brother was going to start going out. This particular brother was EXTREMELy shy of all females, in certain areas, even his sisters. I remember telling my parents and thinking how bad i felt for him. All his life he’s taught not to look/talk to girls and now he has to spend time with and speak – face to face, with a girl, a girl that he doesn’t know from adam! (i was in high school then, but i still felt SOOO bad for him) B”h he was lucky and didn’t do too much dating, the first girl he was set up with, he got engaged to.
Tefilla
i know of a few families who have a few girls lined up. i think that if they are relatively young, meaning they just came back from sem, and a girl a year or 2 older and than maybe one even older, they should wait. It’s incredibly painful to watch a younger sibling get married , (especially if its both girls/boys, i don’t think the issue is when they are different genders.) Once the girls are getting older, i think they should start dating. I know of a story where the parents started looking for the younger one , and b”h the older one got engaged first anyway.
i know of a different situation, where the parents were “extremely ” makpid on not skipping. They had a set of identical twins who were soooo alike in every way. There’s no way to know which one should go first, the only way to do it was, the oldest (it’s twins, so by like 10 minutes?!)
s/o i know who b”h now is married with 4 kids,
when he was on the shidduch market, a father wanted him really really badly for his daughter, but this boy and his parents didn’t want the shidduch for a few reasons. The father set up this whole ploy, (now were talking about in yeshivish circles) that he’ll call the boy for info on someone else, and then in middle say, “why don’t you speak to my daughter directly”. Well it didn’t work. The boy chapped right away what was going on. Too bad.
I know of another shidduch story, where the girls side was EXTREMELY wealthy, and the father REALLY wanted the shidduch. However, the boy and his parents wouldn’t hear of it. He indirectly said he’ll support them, make the whole chasuna… whatever it takes, and the father of the boy said “my son is not for sale” and hung up.
Theres TOoonz to be greatful for!
– for yiddishkeit
– for family
– for friends
– for health
more specific, that i got a job that i wanted for the coming year, that my sister is moving to my community!!! (i have no relatives here, i live in an OOT community)that my little sister is so happy in camp this year, that a very close friend got married… i don’t know the list goes on and on.
Popa bar abba “yes. girls have cooties. get away from meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
i’m sorry but what’s “cooties”
the forty day thing is a real segula. (i forgot who says it and why) the problem lies in the fact that people start trusting in the segulos more than Hashem!, more than simple tefilla itself!
Wearing a shell underneath something gross doesnt make it kosher.
I can’t agree more, its sooo sad , you see these nice BY girls in these pruste disgusting gross styles that are SO not tzniusdik, it doesn’t matter if it covers, or even if it’s not too tight, the style itself is trying to bring attention to those exact parts which are meant to be concealed, hidden and covered. This “heter” with shells is really sick, and than, shells that the sleeves are too tight…
Yes, goyish higher end stores are good to shop at. I only like brooks brothers because they have such befitting respectful clothes.(i hate the symbols, so i buy stuff without they’re silly logo) They’re VERY expensive so i only go on huge sales to the outlet store and buy stuff @ reg. prices (meaning $30 for a sweater is normal, for them it’s on sale). Also Macy’s, ann taylor, i heard talbots, i’ve had no hatzlocho there but i didn’t try enough. Especially in climates where it gets cold you can find long sleeve cotton tops and use it for summer. You New Yorker’s take advantage!
OOMIS! what shetusim!!!! ” When children grow up in a naturally mixed environment, they do not look at each other the same way that that someone does who has never been allowed to have a normal social relationship with a female or male (depending on their opposite gender). ” i mamish don’t know where you come from! it’s much much much healthier, that the children grow up separately and when the time comes, they go out and get married. Everyone has taavos whether they are exposed to the opposite gender/not. What shtusim!
Secondly, tomim tehyeh has a point, just like having couples together for a seuda and then, you know so naturally, one husband is speaking to the other’s wife… and it’s not only the women who compare husbands, sorry tomim, men do compare wives too. And OOmis, you’re right, women are not so shallow. So it’s not good for both sides.
i’d try to put her in her place and say something like “i don’t really pay attention i’m not sure, but who care’s” (its true that i never really pay that much attention to these things sooo…
secondly , if they’re asking such questions, if it was for a shidduch for my child / something, i’d already put up a red flag. Is that important???
please bumbleB do yourself a favor and DO NOT OVERPACK! Most sems dont even have room for all the stuff!
Most girls take tooonz of stuff that they don’t even use in the end. It depends what sem your going to but you really really don’t need even 1/2 as much clothes as everyone takes. You’ll end up wearing the same 2 things every shabbos because in the end you just want to be comfortable and your going to different places every shabbos so no one knows. Also buy all your school supplies there. Its so so silly to shlep along the American paper… etc when you can get it all there. I would say just try to keep all the “extras” down. You really could get a lot of American products there. They sell dove soap, tide detergent, maybe your specific lens solution not. but find out before. These things are very heavy and unnecessary to shlep along. Also seforim, in E”Y are cheaper than in America, it may be worth it to buy there/if you have someone you can borrow them from…
i think a lot of girls over pack because they’re so nervous. Just calm down, you’ll have what you need and prioritize. What’s the most important things that i need to come with me. Remember E”Y is a developed country today, not like it was 20 years ago. You can get stuff there too! Hatzlocho rabba, enjoy your year and take it all in!
moq – wow, you said it so eloquently and well, on target.
i also had this question and i was given the answer that really most hold she was 13, but many like the drash that she was 3. Don’t quote me cuz i’m not sure, but that’s what i remember.
as so many of you said, its mentchlachkeit and not a chasuna issue.
Someone in the beginning said something about girls being so impolite and rude in E”Y. I just want to say, that they don’t even chap and realize it. It’s unfortunately part of their mentality. That’s why they’re called sabras. They come across harsh on the outside, but they REALLY care. I can’t tell you how many unbelievable ?? ???? ????? stories go on their, that i personally experienced. Of course there are those who have derech eretz, but those who don’t are the one’s that stick out. Also i’ve found, that it’s a bit better in places other than Yerushalayim. Bnei Brak and especially more “out of town” places in E”Y are more relaxed a bit, and the people are more respectful.
“I only said that chassidishe people feel uncomfortable when greeted by opposit gender.”
says who –
NOT true. I wrote previously and there are many like me who get uncomfortable when greeted by the opposite gender and i am NOT chassidish!
bein hasdorim i wish we could email obama and all his nutty workers those quotes. i was rolling!
Here are some, sorry if they were already posted:
Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday
A Grudge is a heavy load to bear
If you want what you have, you will always have what you want
Stress is when your gut says “no” and your mouth says “sure i’d be glad to”
I can resist anything but temptation
Taste makes waist
btw “dinner will be served at the sound of the smoke alarm” you may think it’s a joke but until we moved that’s how we knew dinner was almost ready. And erev shabbos- forget about it!
dunno – that’s a very strong point. I actually just redt a shidduch and the person who knows the boy said he won’t be interested because she’s too tall and broad. I’ll be honest, i don’t think she’s even a size 12, but still they’re both not young, c’mon give it a shot. And the persons response was exactly the same as yours – if you want such a thing to happen they have to meet on their own.
I actually know of someone who only wanted to marry a blond gorgeous, skinny girl. (yes there are men out there like that) and guess what i almost burst out laughing when i met her. She wasn’t absolutely gorgeous, nor a toothpick nor blond!