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apushatayid asked “Where does he imply there is something wrong?” (even if it is done outside a shul)
The answer is when Reb Moshe said…
“Therefore, you should distance this new thing of a bas mitzvah celebration, and not to encourage it”
“it is a matter of nonsense”
“the source of this practice comes from the Reform and Conservative”
“there is no basis to consider this a mitzvah matter”
“it is nothing more than a birthday celebration”
So clearly Reb Moshe was opposed to the entire idea, even if it wasn’t strictly prohibited to conduct in the privacy of ones home.
Yet Reb Moshe above does make a distinction between a Bar Mitzavah, which he refers to as coming from a mitzvah, and a Bas Mitzvah, which he calls a non-mitzvah and refers to as nonsense.
But Reb Moshe is condemning Bas Mitzvah ceremonies as being nonsense, a non-mitzvah, and stemming from the practices of the Reform and Conservative…
so are you against the printing of those husbands names? at least lets be consistent. and even if the non-jew/non-religious won’t change, perhaps it’ll help with those who consider themselves frum.
hadalxtp: that is, very unfortunately, so true. imo t-shirts are not tznius in general; but what you are describing is even far far worse and happens with inappropriately sized regular shirts as well.
mosherose: does the Kedushas Shoshanim say its assur to look at her undressed when tahor – just like the mikva night when they are together it must be dark so he cannot fully see her? if so, it seems to be referring only to completely undressed. otherwise does the Kedushas Shoshanim imply he cannot look at her even if her elbow is uncovered (but is otherwise dressed)? if not, how is that different than a bathing suit?
the rabbonim have been crying out against the terrible breaches in tznius, especially during the summer, but recently it has gotten out of hand all year long.
who said dovid invented it??
did you set that up? it would be much better if it were directly on the cr page.
please do.
gavra was comparing eating pig on the street to acting *non*-tzanua on the street. And I don’t think anyone can disagree with that point.
If the community actively punished those who dress untzniusdik, it would have an impact and reduce the massive chillul Hashem and many other aveiros they do with this act, and even worse cause many others to sin.
Unfortunately (since there is no beis din) even though we can’t give her malkos for their public pritzus transgressions, as that would likely be most effective in reducing this crime, we have other avenues available to us. We could not give aliyos to husbands and fathers who allow their wives and daughters to go in public in a non-tznius manner. Or other potential punishments that can be utilized.
“(hopefully no one does so in this day and age)”
Why? Did the halacha change or is pru u’rvu less popular in this day and age?
“that has nothing whatsoever to do with remaining in a marriage that gives no comfort or joy to someone.”
Vi shteit that one is either entitled to “comfort and joy” or a divorce???
“You call that spoiled to want more out of life????”
In 99.9+% of the time one will NOT get “more out of life” by divorcing for these reasons being given. Who knows if the next marriage will not be the same or even worse than the first.
Its also important to note that a women shouldn’t be dressing to public beauty, but rather reserving it for the privacy of her husband.
WolfishMusings,
Well, you said you became frum later, so it is different in your case. But to address your points in general…
Guy shouldn’t be meeting girls until the’re ready for marriage
Once they find there bashert, they should get engaged and limit contact till the wedding
The relationship will be better as a result of the limited contact when they were still forbidden from each other
B’H yes, why do you ask?
Don’t forget, despite what corrupt western values may have unfortunately instilled in some of us, divorce is NOT a right. Just cause one party insists on it, does not indicate s/he is entitled to it. There are certain, specified, reasons why one of the spouses (and it differs for each one) can insist on one. But just cause one wants it, does not mean s/he is entitled to it. The idea s/he is entitled to divorce-on-demand comes from western shtus.
Girls go to high school and study hard (let’s say) for Chumash tests, staying up late and night figuring out the meanign of the ibn Exras and Rambans. Then they get married to a Kollel guy, have children, and assume the role of Akeres HaBayis, possibly never to open an ibn Ezra again.
You learn how Midos is the most important thing in the world, yet on the report card, you can have a half dozen red, circled “dalets” because you failed your academic subjects, and the fact that youre the most righteous baals midos in the world is hardly documented.
I know about this – it is an issue. In more Chassidishe circles, girls are brought up more in line with their ultimate roles as wives and mothers, and therefore, in those circles, you will not hear any girls asking “what is my role” – it’s pretty clear.
Which is the real women’s role in Judaism? the one we learn about or the one we experience – the Akeres HaBayis or the High School valedictorian?
The answer is the Akeres HaBayis. And ideally, your upbringing would reflect that; a century ago, it would have. Problem was, girls were getting influenced by Haskalah and secularism and we had to counter it with a good dose of Torah education for girls. That’s how the BY movement started. It wasn’t ideal, but it was needed. if you wish, you can say it was ideal for these times.
But, like all horaos shah, the edge between the ideal (l’chatchilah) and the necessity (b’dieved) gets blurred. Sometimes Horaas Shash is obvisouly worth the price we pay; sometimes it is obvisouly not worth it. Often, it needs the hachraah of Gedolei Yisroel. this was such a case, and there were Gedolim who were against the BY movement for that and other similar reasons.
However, most Gedolei Yisroel, especially the Litvishe Gedolim, first and foremost among them the Chofetz Chaim ZTL, were in favor of organized education for girls, and the By movement was enthusiastically embraced.
Medicine often has side effects, but we take it anyway.
And here we are now, 100 years later, and the you are feeling “side effects”. Rav Shach ztl and others have stated that a BY schools that teaches too many Meforshim has gone too far, and has crossed the line into what they are not allowed to teach. others, such as the Satmar Rebbe ztl write that even the Chofetz Chaim never intended for girls to learn Meforshim in the first place.
At the other extreme, certain institutions have gone totally beyond the bounds of what is permitted, and have started teaches girls Gemora, which has led to Modern orthodox women writing teshuvos and paskening shailos, deciding which Poskim are correct and which are not! (And, as you can imagine, with the grossest level of incompetence)
But everybody agrees that whatever you are being taught, the ultimate goal is to instill Yiras Shamayim and a fiery commitment to your role as an Akeres HaBayis. No matter how big a melumedes you are, Chazal’s statement applies to you:
How do women merit the next world? By supporting their husbands and children in their learning.
There are women – melumodos and not – who fulfill this role royally. If I may mention a name, Rebitzen Zahava Braunstein a”h was one of them.
There are many others as well.
All the academics and experiences in your BY education is meant to direct you and teach you how to fulfill your ultimate role as an Aishes Chayil and Akeres Habayis, but it is not meant as a microcosm of that role.
Chazal teach us that women merit the next world because of their support and encouragement of their husband’s and children’s learning. Woman was created as an Ezer Knegdo, and so a womans obligation to help her husband is a primary tachlis of hers. Think of a woman as the manager of a baseball team. His job is to make sure the team wins. The husband is the team. Her job is to help him win the game, i.e. by becoming a great talmid chacham and yarei shamayim. Of course, she has her own mitzvos as well, which are also vital to her neshoma, but her role as an ezer kenegdo means that her success in Olam Habah depends on her supportive role to her husband. The converse is not true.
the manager of a baseball team is not “second class”. his role is to help the team win. if they win, he wins, if they lose, he loses. he facilitates and makes them win, but thyre the players. nobody would say joe torre has a second class role.
so too the woman is there to help the man win, by his becomign a talmid chacham. if he won, she wins. she facilitates his winning, but hes the player.
the torha says that woman was created as an ezer knegdo — if not for the role of ezer knegdo, she wouldnt have been created at all. But: This does not mean necessarily that someone would not have been created if not for the role of ezer knegdo. What it means is, hashem would have made you a man. We all would have been men. But Hashem saw in your neshoma that your best role – not the only possible one, but the best one for you – was to be an ezer kenegdo, and so he made you a woman. Your femmininity is NOT “you”. You are not intrinsically “male” or “female”. You are, intrinsically, “human being”. Your femininity is an incidental attribute, same as your age, your hair color, your financial status and your yichus. When hashem created you, He decides what tools to give you on this world to best fulfill your destiny. Some poeple he says are better suited to be a zevulun, some better suited to be a yissachar. This is true even though zevuluns role is to support yissachar. So too some people are best suited ot be men, and some are better suited to be women. Just as some are better suited to be rich and some not so rich, some very smart, some very strong, some born in our times and some born in ancient times etc. Hashem makes differnt people with different personalities and circumstances based on whats best for that perosn. People with a sense of justice are good for being dayanim; peple with a bloodlust are good for bing shochtim; etc. Your femininity is a trait, like a personality type, a physical type, etc. Hashem gave your femininity to you as an attribute; it is not “you.” You are a person who is famale, the same way a rich person is a person who is rich, and the same way a smart person is a person who is smart. These are circumstances and tools Hashem gave people in order ot fulfill their role best in this world.
Some people incorrectly assume that the only reason you were created is to have a supporting role. besides that thers nothign second class about that as described above, it is an incorrect statement. Its not that the only reason Hashme created you was to have a supporting role. Rather, you would have been created anyway, but your femininity, like a wealthy man’s money, like a wise person’s brains, were given to you because Hashem knew you would be able to accomplish your potential best in this world by receiving that tool to use it for the sake of Kovod Shamayim.
Women have a completely different job in the world. Ezer knegdo / akeres habayis / eyshes chayil / etc. For that, if a woman does her job of keepign the Torah, not allowing outside influences and society to impact on her thinking – as per kol kevuda bas melech – then the Binah yeserah Hashem gave her will guide her in her role.
But just like a man can neglect learning torah, a woman can neglect protecting her binah yeserah. So if she allows culture and sciety to influence her thinking, in violation of all those halachos and warnings that chazal give us – her binah could c”v be corrupted.
Men and women are both given the ability to get “clarity” for the things they need to do in this world. Men and women dont need the same type or measure of clarity. The Gemora says that the type of reasoning that Gemora provides those who learn it is detrimental to a woman spiritually. If you give a policeman a fire hose it will only deter him in doing his job. Men were chosen for certina roles in this world, including charting the course for Klal Yisroel, as in Gedolei HaDor, or, as it pertains to most men, to chart the course for their families, and their talmidim. For that, Torah trains them.
WolfishMusings, are you having some downtime in your office again now? 🙂
tzippi, no such thing. online you never know who’s who.
What about playing these board games on a computer. Either against the computer or against a live player online. What do people think of that? How does it compare to playing a board game in the living room?
I used to play Chess online against other players.
I said in the sense some people here are defining it.
I see too many excuses being listed as why divorce is acceptable. No, not even half of those cases being discussed here should divorce be even a speck of thought in ones imagination. And additionally halacha has clear guidelines when divorce is and is not appropriate.
This talk about “love” is pure American shtus, in the understanding it is being discussed. It has no basis in a Jewish marriage.
“Bumping” into someone most certainly IS a problem. Perhaps you can argue it is a b’shogeg, but you should definitly be taking steps to avoid even such a, ahem, “b’shogeg.”
1. Long term ownership is only as good as the maintenance and treatment of the first owner. This brings me to point two.
This is an argument for deciding between new or used, not between buying or leasing — which can be new or used in either scenario.
2. Why buy someone elses headache. More often then not owners fail to do the basic standard maintenance till the car is worn down.
Same response as point 1. And in fact most car owners DO take proper maintenance care of their owned vehicles. (Unlike lease holders.)
3. Leasing a car may actually make economic sense because the monthly payment is usually cheaper then financing a comparable vehicle.
Perhaps, but if you finance you own the car, you can then sell it – or better yet continue using it without ANY fixed monthly costs after the financing is paid off. At the end of a lease you do not own the car and must return it.
4. There is usually a “deal” of some sort for the type of vehicle most people look for.
This is true for both buying and leasing.
5. Chances are most people who cant afford to lease probably don’t have the cash to pay for a reliable and well maintained used car.
It cost much less over the long run to buy used, so if someone is economically disadvantaged they would be better buying.
6. Wear care cost can usually be avoided/or lowered, if the owner doing basic repairs before turning the car in.
With outright ownership you avoid this issue completely. You have nothing to turn in.
7. I would look around the neighborhood and see who people lease from and call around/ ask those neighbors what their experience was. A good leasing company isn’t about “best price” it is also about responsiveness, understanding what your needs are, and answering your questions. Price, is just one factor but it doesn’t tell you much about your future experience.Also, advertisements cost money, whom do you think that money is coming from?
Good point. Used cars are advertised much much less heavily, therefore allowing them to be sold without the owner needing to recuperate advertising costs.
arosem, I’m not judging, I’m making a point. Your reluctance to address the question directly speaks for itself.
Thanks for the clarification. Perhaps the others can share their experience on this as well.
So I understand your honest statement to mean you had no intentional contact?
A simple yes or no would suffice. I am simply asking.
So I take it no physical contact occurred during the dating and engagement periods?
SJSinNYC, arosem, WolfishMusings,
Can you honestly say that during your long dating and engagement, while you were in constant touch with each other that no halachcily inappropriate contact had occurred?
It got my vote! Completely agree with chesedname.
Wow, maybe we can do away with all the tznius and yichud regulations too based on that thunderstorm of an idea. Especially the hiddurim in tznius. Simply urge “self control” and viola! nature will be put aside. Why couldn’t our sages of all the ages think of this…
arosem, I was commenting generally, not on your situation anymore than anyone else’s. I know of no other effective “remedy.” If they are in contact, nature will be nature.
One major problem with a couple being in too frequent contact during a long (official or unofficial) engagement is that an engaged couple naturally feels very close to each other, and being they are unmarried and are severally limited in the interactions that are permissible with each other (let us not spell this out), it forces them to act unnaturally as a soon to be married couple, whilst yet still legally unmarried. Unfortunately all too often nature kicks in and their unnatural, but halachicly mandated, detachment becomes weaker and weaker in maintaining. To deny this is to deny nature.
dunno: BP Totty, and no one, denied that leasing is almost always much more expensive. He just said it made him happier (apparently so he could get a new car frequently) to lease, even though it cost him a bundle. ZachKessin is very correct.
“the cops can’t lock you away for taking a girl out for coffee.”
The cops sometimes trap predators by pretending to be a minor, and see if any adult predator tries to take them out. They then charge the guy without any other conduct.
Its legal for an adult to date a minor? A 55 year old guy can date a 15 year old girl??
Nowadays they’d probably throw you in the slammer for underage… 😉
You were “dating” her for marriage purposes when she was 16!?! Es shtimt nisht.
How old were the two of you at your wedding?
Getting married young is the best and healthiest thing to do (in general). This is borne out by the fact that the younger marriages tend to be more successful. They don’t come into marriage with a bunch of baggage and unrealistic expectations and having been influenced by corrupting secular and goyishe ideas.
Why did you continue dating, if you knew after 3 weeks? You should of gotten engaged then and limited contact until the wedding. I needn’t expound on the dangers of an engaged but unmarried couple remaining in close frequent contact.
You aren’t allowed to unnecessarily talk to another woman.
Someone has to be crazy, under typical circumstances, to lease a car (or even buy brand new.) Economic-wise speaking that is.
Of course, if they need to show off to the Joneses (or Kaufmans) that’s a whole ‘nother parsha.
When I was in a bought van, it was mine for 10+years, shortcomings and all, plus it was old.
That’s why you saved a bundle for 10+ years.
gavra, so are you accusing the Aniyim of Klal Yisroel from doros and doros of not “helping themselves”? Its the poor’s fault for being poor?
Hashem decreed there will be poor in every generation.
gavra, no one “expects to live off of Tzedaka”; you think the poor who come collecting for food or to marry off their children (hachnossos kallah is a tremendous mitzvah itself on top of tzedaka) WANT to embarass themselves by begging? They unfortunately are in that position. Hashem makes sure every generation has its poor, so the non-poor can have the tremendous zechus of supporting the poor.
Would you like to trade places with them? You beg and they will give you tzedaka??
Is that when you realized she was your basherte?
BTW are you Asian? Eeees sounds like a very foreign name.
clearheaded, I completely agree with you. It is also important to acknowledge that the reasons under halacha that it is permissible for a husband to give a get are very different than the reasons under halacha that a wife can insist on one.
I recall as a child learning that a game with play money (like monopoly) cannot be played on Shabbos.