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1. If they are asking about tznius, then they care and “barely covering the knees” will not be enough.
2. You didn’t state at the beginning (I didn’t read every post) but I tell people before they can even ask one question:
a) “I only answer questions from the parents of the boy/girl) Playing telephone with peoples lives is never a good idea.”
b) I don’t answer any physical-looks questions.
3. I never answer an open ended question. I channel my inner “Colombo” and just look at them blankly and reply “I don’t understand. Can you clarify what you mean?”
Maybe it’s because the women should not be speaking in front of men?
We have a Rav speak in my daughter’s school, but he comes in when it’s his turn to speak, and then leaves immediately.
my rule: i tell people BEFORE they tell me the name:
I do NOT answer ANY questions about physical traits. (height, weight, looks)
there is no right or wrong answer. you need to consult with someone who know YOU, and then can tell you in YOUR terms whether a girl (camp, school…) is in line with YOUR hashkafos
I just saw this conversation thread, while I didn’t read every comment, I have a few general insights. (I am an administrator in a mossod in the ny/nj area, I also do consulting for mosdos that need some hadrocho with getting their operations streamlined and running more efficiently.)
1. The average Rebbi in the NY/NJ area is making approx. $60K PLUS at east partial, if not total health care coverage. Some are making more. The days of the Rebbi driving around in a beat-up station wagon with duct tape on the muffler, are OVER. For whatever reason, peer pressure, the good economy the past 8 years, Klei Kodesh have insisted on living on a higher standard than they did 20-30 years ago. Maybe they were used to a certain level when they were in Kollel (from the in-laws) and it’s not worth it to take less, or maybe they saw all of the “working stiff” buying ever-bigger houses, cars, taking vacations, etc… but they have been getting higher salaries.
2.There are more and more issues in all mosdos. Doesn’t matter if you are NCSY, YU, modern-orthodox, black-hat, chasidish…. There are more issues in the house (Shalom Bayis, siblings at risk, internet accessibilty, cell phone..) and more often than not, those people can’t afford (or the situation is too dysfunctional) the individual attention (at the very least) or the professional help (on the higher side) that many of these kids need. Guess who is paying for it? What should they do? Just say “it’s not my problem?” and pass the kid to the next grade? Yes, SOME mosdos do that, but many do not.
3. For many of the public, tuition/education, to them, is not important, or a game, to be played. We don’t have a tuition crisis. (Yes, trust me, I know, there are MANY people who can’t afford tuition) HOWEVER, there are many who can and don’t. The economy has just given them additional cover where to hide. What we do have is a “hashkafic crisis”. If those who could, would value the effort and mesiras nefesh put forth by those who work and worry literally 24/7, things would be easier. (Hey, if these parents worried about their own kids 24/7, we would already be heading in the right direction!) One of the first things I do when starting with a new mossod, is to re-examine their tuition collections. I’ve never failed to raise significant money WITHOUT FIGHTS OR THREATS.Looking at the real data, I see many parents who are hiding from the “tuition man”. When presented with the additonal info I’ve discovered, they have always come clean, yes, reluctantly, but when they realize they were discovered…..
As a side note to this, before getting upset at the tuition person/committee, remember that the last five people they talked to, tried their hardest to put one over on them, so when they got to you, they were already assuming you were just another scammer. Is that fair? absolutely not, but we’re all human. It’s easy for us to judge. Try doing this for a few days, see how fast you become and “anti-semite”.
hodu: when i describe the fathers and the environment at home, i am referring to girls who reflect those hashkafos and want them too, for themselves and their bayis ne’eman.
hodulashem: daughter of kollel, rebbi, or if you are not in kollel or a rebbi etc.. then you are more than koveah ittim. torah permeates your house, (your boys are in philadelphia, telshe riverdale, etc….)
Mezonos Maven: The problem isn’t the yeshivas (BMG or Mir…) it’s the bochrum who go there just so they can say they learned there, but don’t have a connection to the rebbeim. the rebbeim in these places WILL have a kesher if you want it and try to create it.
chulent: gimme a break! these boys do NOT have a kesher to a rebbi from a previous yeshiva (that would almost defeat the purpose of saying you are learning in bmg).they leave high school, go to a b.m. in the u.s. for a year or two, move on to e.y. (mir etc..) for a year or two, then go to bmg so their kallah can tell her friends her chosson is learning in bmg. then they move to lakewood and that’s that. he has never (usually) created any kesher with any rebbi.
rebetzin, confused tatty, et al: look at my original post, the difference between hadar and bjj parent body is minute. splitting hairs, different shades of grey, pick your cliche. hadar IS very yeshivish, the difference is they will accept girls that bjj won’t. (NOT a knock on eithere one!!!)
i know hadar is big in lakewood, but they are increasingly competing with tiferes there, too.
academically: bjj is still #1. they are all academics all the time (yes, i know, they also go on tiyulim, but…)
bnos sara and masores rochel are also seriously academic.
i don’t think you can really compare machon raaya in any way with these others (bjj. machon, masores)
AZOI.IS: i think your missing the point. I (and I assume jphone) were referring to boys who move to BMG so they can get married quickly to someone looking for someone in BMG.
ok, mashehukazeh, i agree with your “all have some in and some out of the box”. just because your father is a rosh yeshiva, rav, or rebbi, doesnt automatically ,ean you are in the box. so, yes, all seminaries have some in and out. machon raaya’s environment seems to allow these out of the box girls more room to express their “out of boxness” so therefore… and NO, it’s not a bad thing. these are also good girls, and they deserve a good sem experience, too. but your “standard” bjj, hadar etc.. girl would probbably feel out of place there.
as for jappiness, smile1, it’s a problem in brooklyn, it’s a problem in money, it’s a problem even in lakewood, so if it’s a problem in the 3 largest feeder areas then it’s gonn abe a problem in sem. bnos chava is no more jappy than some of the others. you will have some japs wherever you go.
as an aside, smile1, if you are on the web, accessing this website/blog etc.. then your’ hashkafos are not totally in line with many of the sems that we are discussing. BEFORE, everyone jumps all over me for that statement, pls note, that most bais yaakov schools and sems do not allow internet access for their students. the “better” sems only allow “kosher” cell phones. the internet IS adangerous place, as we all know, and as adults we are better “suited” to deal with many of the nisyonos there. it’s no different than a chainsaw. it’s also very handy and useful, but you wouldn’t give it to your 16 y/o son to use (and definitely not supervised). ALL: please do not go “off topic” by arguing this point, we are discussing seminaries. if you want to discuss this, you can start a new discussion.
by no means authoratative. this is my understanding of the various sem choices:
bjj- you: rosh yeshiva, kollel, or VERY yeshivish. your daughter: straight alef (with maybe a very stray aleph minus) on her h.s. transcript. very serious student, wants to expend serous energy learning tnach in depth with meforshim. either because she is very motivated on a hashkafic level or she wants to be a morah, or give the occasional lecture/shiur to other women…. if you (actually your daughter) is looking for warm and fuzzy this is NOT the place for you.
hadar (and maybe bnos sara now) slightly less hardcore than bjj. you: yeshivish, if you are not in kollel or a rebbi etc.. then you are more than koveah ittim. torah permeates your house, (your boys are in philadelphia, telshe riverdale, etc….) also hi level of academics. your daughter: one of the top in her class, especially in limudei kodesh.
tiferes: you: yeshivish (see hadar) your daughter: yeshivish, SOLID hashkafos, not as academic. more concerned with yeshivish type girls (they get quite a few from lakewood)
bnos chava. as academically strong as hadar, but the families tend not to be as yeshivish. the parent body may be a bit more on the professional side that does NOT mean they are jappy. it’s NOT a negative, it’s a statement. solid families, koveah ittim etc…. as a matter of fact i know FIRST HAND some people they DIDN’T take because they were what they considered to be jappy. (Those people weren’t close..in my opinion.)
masores rochel: reb tarshish is that good. similar crowd (girls) as bnos chava, (parent body not AS professional) solid academics, too.
nachlas: solid yesivihs/koveah ittim parent body. they seem to attract/recruit more on middos/finekeit/aidelkeit. but academics are still SOLID.
machon raaya: new, don’t have a lot of info on them, but i do one girl who went there (from brooklyn) my undersatnding from her (and her father): focus on warmth, nice girls, but definitely not in the box. (sorry Mashehukazeh, nothing against you, but you must understand “Bais Yaakov” type means different things to different people. Also, Prospect, BY Drav Meir, and BY of Boro Park, Masores, etc.. are all one of the best schools in Brooklyn, but each caters to different clientele)
summary: All except BJJ will give various degrees of warmth. (A lot depends on your daughters personality, too.) All have excellent teachers. (When you’re not tied down to a curriculum, and it is permissible to let the non-motivated girls just go to sleep in the back, you can teach much more effectively). All have some connection to the gedolim, and will usually get your daughter some “Face-time” with at least one or two of them at some point.
Call parents from last yrs 12th grade, get their daughters cell phone numbers in E”Y (it’s REQUIRED nowadays! go figure.) and have your daughter “reach out and touch some one” (or some oneS)) it’s hard for anyone to give GOOD advice with out knowing your daughter well. I assume at least some of the girls in E”Y this year, will know your daughter.(Doe she like late night studying making a “leining” on meforshim.) IS she more outgoing? Needs more friends? is she more yeshivish in her hashkafic views, outlook, and future goals? Is she stronger in haskafa and weaker in chumash, or stronger in navi and wants to fill in more on haskfa? is she looking to grow academically, socially, haskfaically? (I assume it’s yes” to all three) the question is “in what order? there’s no right or wrong answer. it’s what’s good FOR HER.
hope this helped.
jphone: then what are they looking for when they join the yeshiva?