smerel

>>>The problem with these discussions is everyone has their preconceived notions and cherry picks Pieces mamarei chazal to fit .

I have read a lot of anti-Zionist propaganda .Some opposition that I agree with. Some is a legitimate haskafa or political complaint even I personally do not agree with the conclusion. There is however one very important component that I have never seen in any of the anti-Zionist propaganda written over the past sixty years: Anyone even TRY to make an intelligent non emotional argument that Israel has the CURRENT option to give into the anti-Zionist demands without at the at least the very heavy risk of a Jewish bloodbath afterward.

>>>The ‘oh really’ was in reference to your immature conclusion behind the edit. If you knew the truth, you’d be embarrassed you said it.

Now you REALLY sound like a high school kid

shkoyach, your unsolicited opinion is warmly received.

It is true that covid was overplayed and a lot of “following the science” just meant follow my power hungry opinion but those who downplayed covid also cost many lives. Ridiculous as some of the measures ostensibly put in place to avoid Corona were, those who flouted rules and precautions did die at a lot higher rate than those who ignored them.

Source?

Even if the Democratic party does endorse the “D.E.I” platform favoring discrimination for favored groups and an endorsement of Hamas’s demand for genocide of Jews, most secular and liberal Jews will continue to support them anyway.

Nobody ,Jew or non-Jew, likes changing demographics resulting in their group being a diminishing presence in the area and some other group that doesn’t share their interest or political values taking over.

That said it also depends on where and what the concern is. I understand the resentment in a place where the frum community is rapidly growing and demanding changes to the budget and zoning to accommodate them. In a large urban area where even if the frum community does take over one neighborhood they still won’t be a big enough voting presence to cause any changes to the lives of the people living just a few blocks away from them, the resentment is not justified.

>>>Zionism is a clear issur from the gemara (shalosh shavuos)

Even assuming that is true, what falls into the category of zionism/shalosh shavuos is certainly not a clear cut issue. Not in the Gemora and not in the Rishonim and not even mentioned in Rambam or Shulchan Aruch

>>>everything that anyone argues is a legitimate machlokes, no matter of the consensus of rabbonim etc.

The differences between what make someone a Rav or lhvdil a reform rabbi is not an issue of consensus at all. Do you know what it is?

In my experience people whose relationship to Torah and mitzvahs is so heavily influenced by their view on Zionism (pro or against)that it is a part of their identity usually are willing to bend Torah sources to fit their biases on the issue

>>>The Zionists misuse/abuse the Torah when it suits their propaganda purposes. That’s normal for them.

That is also true about their more extreme opponents

>>> their first leader, David Green, did so as well

Actually when he was alive the more extreme anti-Zionist was always complaining about why he never mention Hashem or Torah (though they had no problem with sucking up to non Israeli secular Jewish politicians who were guilty of the same) Now that the Israeli prime minister does frequently mention Hashem and Torah their partly line changed to he distorts Torah . What they remained consistent about is that they still have no problem sucking up to non Israeli secular Jewish politicians who are guilty of the same.

>>>That’s not how we fight a war. We fight by sitting in the Bais Medrash and crying Tehillim.

Nu, So how much more of that have YOU been doing since the war started? I’m not disagreeing with you. I just don’t get the sense that those most of those who oppose the rally on the grounds of “we fight by more learning and crying Tehilim” are actually doing so to any great degree. There are in fact many people who are doing so. But they aren’t the ones who are hocking online about how this is not the way we do things

>>>the Ribono shel Olam is a Democrat
He is the Malbish arumim, someich noflim, zokef kifufim.

He doesn’t do so by taking away money from unwilling third parties. He expects histadlus from those who aren’t on a very high level of bitochen. etc.

In my opinion much as these people want to get married they would still prefer to be single over marrying someone who they do not believe to be ideal for them. Deep down they know they are being unrealistic and have limited chances of getting married with these stipulations. They would still prefer that over someone who isn’t their ideal

If you know so little about Cleveland , have so few contacts there and apparently no job waiting for you there that you need to ask about all this online before moving why are you limiting yourself to Cleveland?

There was never any chance of a massive ground invasion last week or the week before. The amount of traps, hidden tunnels in front and in back, the amount of Hamas training for this battle vs. the Israeli amount of planning etc. would have made it impossible. Even when the news was saying again and again that it is imminent I knew it would not happen then.

For the ground war to start Israel needs (1) a weakened Hamas infrastructure from the bombings and weakened Hamas fighters from the siege (2) Hamas can not be on alert like they certainly were over the first two weeks (3)intelligence needs to be discovered (4) serious planning needs to be done. Even then they probably won’t do an all out invasion. They will probably try to locate specific targets to destroy that can’t be destroyed from the air and retreat right afterwards.

>>>In a well functioning democracy, a leader who presides over a catastrophic security failure leading to the deaths of more than 1000 civilians would accept responsibility for it and offer to resign.

Not true. Bush didn’t resign after 9/11. Roosevelt didn’t resign after Pearl Harbor. etc. Leaders rarely resign after some disaster happens. The exception would be if (1)there was an intrinsic reason why they should have known, like they were warned or (2) The disaster was clearly the result of some prior action they took.

If leaders resigned over catastrophic security failures than the leader of any democracy that gets attacked by some other country would have to resign afterwards.

>>>Binyan olam was written by Rav Chatzkel Levenstein Zatzal.

It was also rumored to be written by someone who gone to work and was trying to get others to go the other way. A sefer like Binyan Olam that claims there are more chiyuey krisosos than those that are mentioned in the Mishna, Gemora, and the Rambam is upgefregt. Rav Chatzkel Levinstein would not have written stories about the Belzer Rebbe in a sefer of his.

>>>The majority of Israelis were living it up.

Um…no. The majority of Israelis were NOT living it up during the gulf war. Even the anti semitic New York Times claimed otherwise when describing the situation in Isreal. For that matter I don’t recall any Americans fasting or doing Yom Kipper kottons during the gulf war either. The most I recall was everyone lighting candles five minutes early on ONE erev shabbos due to a made up rumor that Rav Schach had said to.

>>>People went out the next day after their own brothers were just killed. They don’t think like you. Silly Americans freak out more than the Israelis.

What choice was there? Stay home and starve to death? Go crazy from staying in a one room house for an indefinite amount of time? How well followed was the covid lockdown in America after a few weeks? That was much less restrictive.

Mr Kuvult

May I remind you and everyone here of YOUR assessment of the issue here on YWN. I haven’t forgotten it becuase as I said then and repeat now it is from the most vile and antisemitic comments I ever seen on the blog world. And I’ve seen many vile and antisemitic comments on the blogworld

Here is your “brilliant” assessment

>>>Indefensible borders from who? Lebanon, Syria, Jordan & Egypt have neither the will nor capability to go to war with Israel. The Gulf States have no interest in war with Israel. The Palestinians with some automatic rifles & crude rockets are a non threat. The only threat is Iran 1,100 miles away giving Israel plenty of time to react before they get near Israel (& truth be told Iran really has no interest in a war with Israel.)
This is what bothers people about Israel (& Jews). Israel is the undeniable Superpower in the region where this time instead of a 6 day war it’d be max a 3 day war with a total victory for Israel. Yet we’re crying to the world like Israel is on the verge of being destroyed & people resent that.

Going down the wrong street

A plague on both their houses. They are both horrible people but as of this writing the polls based on the electoral college alone show Trump as winning.

I think it’s 50/50. This election is unique that both sides aren’t even pretending to have any platform other than pouring vitriol on the other guy and party. Both parties and candidates are doing a great job at proving that the other side is correct with it’s accusations. They are not doing a good job at anything else….

Very few people who were frum beforehand went OTD because of the lure of the Zionist movement alone. Had the Zionist not existed they would have found some other OTD movement to join.

For all their faults and personal opposition to religion, the Zionists did not run around preaching abandon Torah and join us. There are plenty of movements that did that you barely hear about. Because most of the anti-Zionists are only interested in fighting with those who they can accuse of being Zionists. They don’t seem to have any interest n fighting other groups who acted and continue to act worse. They have no problem giving kovod to members of the the latter groups when it suits their purposes. They certainly never initiate conflict with them.

>>>I choose to listen to people who are more religious,

Making a living off being vitriolcy anti-Zionist doesn’t make you more frum. As the Satmar Rebbe put it “anyone who wants to can become a kanoi overnight”

>>>because even if they’re biased, they’re airing on the right side

If they are too extreme and emotional about the issue they very likely are NOT on the right side. I’m sure Shapiro didn’t bother informing you that Ponevich fly’s the Israeli flag on Yom Haaztmut, Rav Shach used to daven in a shul that said Hallel and Yom Haatmut (he himself never said it but he didn’t walk out in protest either and by far of most importance, Rav Shach strongly felt that Shapiro’s group and their ilk are the cause of a lot of the hatred to the frum world in Israel due to their endless standoffish and confrontational behavior with secular Israelis. I go with Rav Schach and the many other Gedoley Torah who felt that Shapiro and co are doing the WRONG thing.

>>>The biases of a person who wishes to further Torah and minimize sin is better to me than that of leftists

Having read Shapiro’s book it has nothing to do with Torah and minimizing sin. It has to do with propaganda and trying convince you that secular Israelis today are collectively responsible for the attitudes and behavior of people who are long dead. If he is going to plagiarize from the Chazon Ish the title “The Wrong Battle” would be a far better title for his book than the one he choose.

Rabbi Shapiro is a brilliant person with so much to offer the frum world. In times like today when Yiddishkeit is under attack from all sides, there is so much he could accomplish for the frum world and Torah.Had he written a 1300 page book against the CURRENT enemies of Torah and their ideologies he would be from the strongest spokesman for and defenders of Torah Judaism in our time. His former website, frumteens, was a lifesaver for some. Tragically he closed that website down and chose to use his talents and energy to fight people and ideals that are long dead. Chaval!

>>>definitely heard it from the author of the Empty Wagon

A rule in life is not to trust people who are in the business of pushing an agenda…

>>>So you really want me to stick my little head between them – between Rav Amram Blau, zul’zein gezunt, and between, let’s say, Rav Chaskel Abramsky, who’s not Neturei Karta?!

Neither the Neturei Karta today nor the people who they fight against are the same as what the situation during the lifetime of Rav Amram Blau was.

And the Neturei Kara was controversial back then too. See what Rav Yosef Elyah Henkin had to say about them at the end of Kisvei Rav Yosef Elyah Henkin. And that was even though he agreed with them that frum people should not vote or be in the Knesset.

>>>Awareness of the rishus of a Zionist and his hate for Charedim.

How do you define Zionist?

I’ve heard and seen enough of those type of shiurim in life to know that a secular Israeli could just as easily give a lecture called “Awareness of the evils of a Charedi and his hatred towards us.”

>>>Smerel, your way of reading the gemara would mean that the main purpose of sifrei tanach including iyov is written so that goyim should read it.

I’m in wonderful company. You misunderstand the Gemorah and you misunderstand me. I have no idea where you see what you are claiming I said that but to be clear. The Gemora asks as a question how anyone can think that the Neviem were not also written for non-Jews אַטּוּ כּוּלְּהוּ נְבִיאֵי מִי לָא אִינַּבּוֹ לְאוּמּוֹת הָעוֹלָם. The Gemora answers that Iyov is unique in that the entire sefer was (also) written in a manner that is for non-Jews עִיקַּר נְבִיאוּתַיְיהוּ לְאוּמּוֹת. You can possibly kvetch into the Gemora that it means that during their lifetimes their nevua was also (or primarily in the case of the other seven) for non-Jews but the written seforim of their nevuos were not meant for non-Jews bit there is is no way it can be understood as saying that Sefer Iyov is primarily ABOUT non-Jews like you do. Reread the gemora with Artscroll a few times if you still think I’m misquoting it.

>>>As for c’kohen gadol, avi quoted it and it’s not relevant, because it’s referring to a goy who keeps the 7 mitzvos.

Says who? Who made that a unanimous opinion? Is it all or nothing when it comes to the Shiva mitzvas? As an aside someone enrolled in this course is far more like to end up keeping the Shiva mitzvas than someone who isn’t.

I’m not posting further on this thread so you are welcome to have the last word.

The Gemora Bava Basra 15B says ?אַטּוּ כּוּלְּהוּ נְבִיאֵי מִי לָא אִינַּבּוֹ לְאוּמּוֹת הָעוֹלָם about the thought that the Neviem in Tanach were not talking to non-Jews as well.

I’m no posek and not endorsing the idea of a masters program teaching Tanach to non-Jews from a Jewish perspective but the Gemora does seem to clearly indicate that non-Jews are encouraged to learn Tanach. Who is supposed to be teaching it to them?

Unless you can prove with solid maareh mokomos that YU is clearly doing an aveira just bug off.

>>>From all the “sinas chinam” or “it ain’t different in xyz community” it would seem that no one has a good answer to OP’s question.

As the famous comment from the Rav Chaim Volozhiner goes “Questions have answers, answers do not” Meaning that if someone isn’t looking for an actual answer no one can give him one.

If someone is sincerely interested in understanding MO haskafa and how they deal with the questions asked in the OP they can be addressed. If someone isn’t you may as well focus on the sinas chinom and hypocrisy of the implied questions . Things are not so simple that they can be answered in the simplistic manner they are presented. They are like asking Can you be Yeshivish and wear a blue shirt and no hat? Can you be a Satmar Chosid but oppose women shaving their heads? Can you be a baal musser but only learn from musser sources that the musser movement did not stress learning? What was the mesorah that the musser movement used in picking the seforim and some of the concepts it would focus on?