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DY, correct me if I’m mistaken, but that point would only seemingly be applicable in specific or certain circumstances where women are wearing a snood incorrectly and aren’t careful with it to ensure full coverage at all times. But in areas or communities where the women insure they wear a tichel correctly and appropriately (as is the case in very many comminutes that are makpid to use tichels), that point wouldn’t be applicable.
In the Sephardic world, what is the more common shitta? Like Rav Ovadia Yosef that sheitels are forbidden. Or the more common shitta is against Rav Ovadia?
For those that say so, what’s their halachic logic that a sheitel is “better” than a tichel? I don’t understand what reason anyone would say so, so I’d like to hear the rationale.
Also, see my last post above.
I don’t feel I heard a good reasoning why a kehila shouldn’t return to a minhag that was coercively banished by a government gezeira once the gezeira is abolished. But be that as it may, I’ll put that question aside for the moment.
Am I correctly understanding from the sources offered here that the Mechaber opposed sheitels but the Rema permitted them? Thus they’re okay for Ashkenazic kehilos that accept them but not for Sephardim? And that the sources cited in this thread permitting are from the Ashkenazic world.
One point I’m unclear about is that it was mentioned here that the Gemorah permitted sheitels. If that is so, why was there the subsequent strong debates for many centuries among the latter poskim pro and con regarding peah nochris, if the Gemorah already paskened this matter.
What list of hashgachos can be relied upon as all being reliable hashgachos? cRc puts together such a list and feivel mentioned Kosher Quest. Are both their lists reliable as to only listing reliable hashgachos? Any other such lists?
<“Most people aren’t interested in being “different”.>
DY – Your point is a good one insofar as it pertaining to individuals reverting to their original minhag. But if the kehila itself issued a takana after the gezeira was over that everyone should revert to the kehilos original minhag, then your objection would be alleviated.
The Czarist gezeira is a known reality that isn’t under dispute. I believe even the fact that bochorim in Mir were clean shaven was a result of the after-effects of the gezeiros. Prior to the gezeiros frum Jewish men in Russia/Lithuania/Poland (non-Chasidic) had beards, kapotes and long sidecurls. And the frum women wore tichels. The Russian government effectively changed all that.
My question (note that I’m not here claiming anyone needs to change anything) is if the change was forced upon us by the Russian Czar, once we are free from his yoke, why haven’t the kehilos from the Russian/Lithuanian/Polish areas that changed minhagim due to these gezeiros returned to their traditional minhagim vis-a-vis head covering for women and kapotes and beards for men.
That’s the question I’m trying to understand.
zaltzvasser – Russian rule of Poland and Lithuania began in the 1700s and ended in the 1900s. You couldn’t possibly expect that after over 100 years of oppressive Czarist anti-Jewish rule that all the women would suddenly start covering their hair again properly as soon as the Russians were kicked out.
Mir was part of the Russian Empire until 1920. And it became part of Russia (USSR) again in 1939. Mir was only part of Poland between 1920 and 1939. There was no country Poland for over a hundred years until 1920. Rebt. Shain went there only eleven years after the Russians left and she left Mir just two years before the Russians took it over again. Just a few short years after the Russians left for only a brief period, it isn’t reasonable to have expected everyone to have adjusted from a hundred plus years of oppressive religious rule.
zaltzvasser – We’ve established that the Czar forced Jewish women to stop covering their hair and had the Russian police beat women caught in the street with their hair covered. Poland and Lithuania were under Russian jurisdiction. So this regression to uncovered hair was due to the Christian authorities violently forcing them to go uncovered. Or at best a wig that looked similar to hair but without the Maftachos that Jewish women had the minhag of wearing.
So you can’t really fault them being they were beaten into submission by the police. Nor can that unfortunate period be used as an example of anything, especially the righteous way.
Gaon – I’d be interested in hearing your feedback on the points I made in my previous five or so comments above.
They wouldn’t resume wearing kippas?
If the French or Quebec government forced Jews to stop wearing kippas (a not unrealistic possibility), would they no longer wear them once the gezeira was lifted or they moved out of those countries?
Honestly, I’m still unclear why we should let Russian government anti-Jewish gezeiros from 150 years ago govern us today that we wouldn’t reverse the less then optimal changes we undertook only as a direct result of that unwanted interference in our religious life and in how we practice our minhagim.
I’m not saying everyone needs to stop wearing only sheitels, but I’d like to understand the answer to that question as it pertains to kehilos that come from those areas (which also includes Lita and Poland.)
Regarding Sephardim, when did they stop mostly wearing head coverings other than sheitels? It appears Sephardim mostly wearing sheitels only occurred in the post WWII era. Aren’t minhagim supposed to remain intact?
Gaon – <“I will quote soon the Poskim in those times, in regard to Russia Czarist. Yes – the fact was that it did prompt that most Charedi women opted to go uncovered. Not everyone was able to afford a wig.
Other customs were banished as well due to the Gezeros, e.g. there were many places were married women shaved their heads, the Netziv speaks about it Emek Shailah – it all came to an end then.
I think only some Hungarian chasidim still do that…”>
Why haven’t we returned to the hair covering customs that the Russian government gezeiros stopped us from continuing, now that the government gezeiros are no longer enforced against us?
zaltzvasser – You’re talking about America. To be honest, prewar America was always less frum than prewar Europe. I was talking about prewar Europe and the prewar Mizrachi world. I think it’s been established that in prewar Europe and by the Mizrachim/Sephardim, most frum women covered their hair with more than just a sheitel or with something other than a sheitel (eg a snood.) Although we know that in certain countries (not all) in Europe, during certain periods, eg Lithuania in the inter-war era, there was a large problem of certain segments of frum women not covering at all, that was never considered acceptable and the rabbonim in those countries spoke against that phenomenon harshly.
What I was asking earlier was at what point in time, and for what reasons, did a majority of frum women change customs from wearing more than just a wig or something other than a wig, to covering their hair with a wig only.
I read some newspaper articles from the 1800s reporting in Russia that the Russian Czar wanted to modernize Russia, which at the time was highly religious even among the gentiles, and most Russian men sported beards in line with Russian Orthodox Church teachings. So the Russian government banned beards, overtly religious garbs and banned women from covering their hair (something Christian women also did at the time.) These regulations applied to both Christians and Jews, and the Russian police would beat anyone in the street who violated these anti-religious regulations. This was the period Russian peasents started shaving. This was also the same period that many Jews were forced to stop wearing long jackets (kapotes). And this it seems is when Jewish women started wearing wigs-only in large, or even majority, numbers. The reports read were of Russian police arresting and beating Jews (men and women) who violated these regulations by having beards, wearing long jackets or women noticably covering their hair.
But were the Achronim paskening regarding wigs that look similar to hair or were the Achronim paskening regarding wigs that actually have human hair?
Perhaps a halachic distinction exists between the two?
Were the sheitels of 150+ (or 100) years ago natural human hair or were they something else like synthetic or fake hair?
If the majority of sheitel wearers 150+ or 100 / 75 years ago didn’t wear natural human hair sheitels, it could be the quoted poskim from those times were speaking of a different product/question in their psak than the issue with the majority of wig products in the Jewish market today.
Somewhere earlier in the thread someone claimed that it is only in recent times that most women wear just wigs whereas in previous generations most women had the custom to wear something else, either in addition to a wig or instead of a wig. When/why did the custom for most Jewish women change to wear only a wig?
I seem to recall it might have been the Czarist Russian government that legislated in the 19th century against Jewish women wearing a visible head covering, and the police beating women caught with their hair noticably covered, that prompted many women to change to using wigs instead of snoods.
DY: Thank you for the lengthy explanation.
The Emes L’Yaakov makes a flat statement differentiating keilim without offering a rational?
Okay, I’m not arguing. I’m just trying to understand the halachic logic to differentiate between the two.
If someone is makpid on cholov Yisroel why would there even be a hava amina that he shouldn’t be makpid on keilim? It seems pashut if you’re makpid on one you should be makpid on both.
gaon – that’s what I meant. Some peasents celebrate Halloween as a religious celebration. And about Christmas, irreligious and non-Christians celebrate it as non-religious holiday.
Why does the random Joe Doe determine the halacha? Some Joe Doe’s celebrate Halloween as a religious celebration and some celebrate it as a secular celebration. Same with Christmas. Some only celebrate Christmas as a purely secular holiday and others as a religious one.
What halachic logic would make a posek “prefer” a sheitel over a tichel?
<R’ Moshe himself writes that keilim should be kashered>
If R’ Moshe was mattir, in general, why would he require that keilim be kashered?
Lightbrite, why are introverts more likely to participate in an online forum?
There’s another major hurricane about to hit Puerto Rico and nearby islands after other parts of the Caribbean and Florida were hit, which itself followed a major hurricane in Texas.
And today Mexico suffered a second major earthquake two weeks after the last one. All this in the run-up to Rosh Hashana. I would definitely consider all this a warning from Hashem.
There weren’t Kodaks or cars in most previous generations. It’s very hard to justify calling those in more recent generations of Talmidei Chachamim and rabbinical leadership, who support these stances, as בל תוסיף or being lacking in Derech HaTorah.
My reading of Redleg’s various comments is that really any minimal clothing that is deemed the community standard by a rabbi is okay with him.
DovidBT: The same thing that happens to the other 1.5 million New Yorkers who ignore it.
Gentlemen, if you think the meat at the supermarket is bad, you have no idea how bad the food (and mice) at restaurants are. If you knew, you’d never eat in another restaurant again that you didn’t personally verify the kitchen!
Meno, It is true I didn’t address your later point. But I addressed the point of the title.
A godol and his wife were outside when someone snapped a picture of them. I don’t see the godol or his wife attempting to impart a point by not having (the ability to?) run away from the photographer.
I would suggest the grandparent ask the family rabbi for her help and she will be able to compose the desired prayer.
My personal opinion is that the social pressure to stay married rather than to divorce and the idea of “staying married for the children’s sake” is a good thing that has much merit. Because often divorce damages the children (shuffling them between two homes every week or two, not living with both parents, one parent not living with the children, the cost of maintaining two households, boys not having a father to take them to shul on Shabbos and Yom Tov, and other issues including just each parent themselves living a solitary single/unmarried life) is more often, though not always, more damaging than the problems associated with having a non-ideal marriage. Many couples considering divorce haven’t fully thought through the difficulties for the children and themselves of divorced life. If there was no social differences between being married and being divorced we would see,I think, a tripling of the number of divorces. Mah harayah? The secular world got rid of the social cost of divorce and their divorce rate skyrocketed.
Redleg, since you argue that a sleeveless community standard is acceptable since it is the standard, I’m wondering if you’d say the same about tanktops, if that is the community standard.
Regarding your point about Lita, Rav Yechiel Michel Epstein strongly wrote in his halachic sefer against those women you referred to and said it was totally inexcusable and wrong.
Redleg, are you arguing that if the community standard is sleeveless, then that is okay to dress as and daven in front of?