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Feif, people need to actively reduce thier expenses (I’m not saying eat beans every night, but definitely scale back) while increasing their income. Now, not everyone can do this feasibly, but people should be coming up with long term solutions to pay tuition rather than rely on tzedaka.
As a full time working parent, some form of daycamp will be neccesary, especially in younger grades. But it certainly won’t be fancy camps if I can’t afford tuition.
Vacations are wonderful, but in most cases, shouldn’t be taken if you are living off tzedaka.
Popa, what do you call cheap? There are schools in Lakewood for $5,000. How much cheaper can you get?
showerzinger,
I know members of scholarship committees and unfortunately, families cannot be trusted anymore. Lets also realize that EVERY penny that you don’t pay for tuition is money that has to be raised via donations OR gets funded into tuition increases which overburden more and more families.
Lets not forget that scholarships are tzedaka and you are supposed to avoid taking tzedaka.
As for summer camps – your children do NOT have to be hanging around in order to avoid sleepaway camp. They can volunteer or work in day camps. And please note, the specific camps I referenced often run $5,000+ (up to about $8,000).
Lets deal with these expenses one at a time:
Cheap vacation – $500 minimum (including gas, place to stay, attractions).
Cleaning help – usually a minimum of $1000/year (not a real necessity unless you have a disability or severe depression or something)
Kosher food – beans are kosher and cheap. Eggs are cheap. There are many cheaper alternatives to chicken and beef, the most expensive parts of the kosher diet. You can easily save $100 month on your grocery bill if you try.
Your attitude shows that Yeshiva tuition is not a priority. How is saving money at the expense of tuition ethical? And you wonder why tuition committees need to grill people?
Clever,
Part of the problem is that people don’t prioritize tuition, forcing scholarship committees to ask for more and more information.
The adage was always “buy a house before your kids are in school otherewise you won’t be able to afford it since all your money is going to tuition.”
People increase their standard of living or buy more house than they can afford or decide their wife has to be a SAHM or their husband has to learn in Kollel or they have to support their SIL in Kollel or they have to eat chicken every night – heaven forbid they eat beans…tuition comes almost last.
People don’t save up for tuition in thier earning years before school. People don’t understand how much tuition costs as a young family until it hits them squarely in the nose.
Many students go to Israel for summer learning or touring programs after 10th grade, and then there are expensive sleep away or touring camps in America (like Achva East/West). They are often paid for by grandparents as a “workaround” to tuition.
But the grandparents likely won’t pay for tuition anyway, so all it does is keep kids out of these programs.
On the other hand, I think it sends a message that tuition really must be a priority. At that age, kids can often get jobs in camp, so parents wouldn’t have to pay for their kids summer “babysitting” needs.
GAW, the letter is posted here:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_smyFvgL0xa0/TUczEJPqBQI/AAAAAAAABMg/q4YsjaIYnnM/s1600/letter.jpg
There are some frum cops out there.
My friend became a detective. A cousin of mine was a street cop.
Maybe Jews shouldn’t do anything wrong and then there would be no problem of mesira?
Shev, you choose not use the free education system. Its not the fault of the government if you want private education, that’s your fault.
But, there are avenues that will laregly be unattractive to RW/Charedi society, such as the Shalom Academy that’s starting up for Teaneck and Englewood students. They had a lottery and are oversubscribed for every grade except 5th (its K-5). There is a wait list. But its a coed school. It won’t be 100% Jewish nor 100% observant. Its a hebrew school, no religion taught. Talmud Torah will be in the afternoon.
Private education costs money. The government is not going to discriminate against your neighbors by requiring them to go to a different school. And are you willing to have the curriculum?
You have to decide how much you are willing to sacrifice – money? curriculum? time? Its not easy.
But, it does give parents a very good option
We check approximately every 3.5 years. Its not cheap, but its worthwhile.
Ah ok Wolf. I just always associated the day with drunkards who turn the river in Pearl River green 🙂
Zeeskite, are you saying that those who pay full tuition have more emunah than those who don’t?
Does anyone in the US celebrate St Patricks Day as anything other than corned beef, cabbage, soda bread and alcohol?
I have no clue what St Patricks Day actually is.
ZeesKite, other schools HAVE closed (see a recent article about a school in Toronto).
ZeesKite, if there is no problem, please explain why Bais Yaakov of Boro Park is in danger of closing due to financial difficulties? Unless you think the closing of Jewish schools is not a problem?
Wolf, this is purely a public school. The largest difference is that this school is available to Teaneck and Englewood residents. There is a huge percentage of Jewish residents, who will likely try for the lottery (which was complete, I have no idea who got in though). In NYC, you are likely to have much more of a diverse mix of students (for better or for worse), whereas here, you are likely to have a very Jewish population, even if not everyone is observant.
About the NYC public school system: my cousin went to an overcrowded NYC school and one way they solved the problem was to have 2 shifts of the school day – I think it was like 7-12 and 12-5? Something like that.
Also, who here would allow their children to go to a coed school? Raise your hand, but I doubt its more than 1-2 people.
In Bergen County, NJ a Hebrew Language charter school was just approved. Its called Shalom Academy. Its a hebrew immersion and a Talmud Torah will take place (on or off campus, I’m not 100% sure), and cost very little. Rumor has it the TT is well backed and will cost just a few hundred dollars per child per year. Likely, there will be a before school tefilla club.
In a place like Bergen County, this has a lot of potential for success. However, it is still a public school and religion will not be a part of it. The school cafeteria will be kosher (or have a kosher option, details are still sketchy), but non kosher food may be brought it. Schools will not be closed on all Yom Tovim, but will obviously not penalize a large portion of the students for taking off.
I will post a link to their website if the mods will allow it.
bpt, is that why you live near OCEAN PARKway?
I love the smell of melted tar and new carpet.
My civil ceremony was in Vegas. We wore Hawaiin gear.
I’ve only seen pre-wrapped packages at the starbucks near me. I don’t look too closely though.
Once the cRc comes out with their directive, I’ll ask my Rav.
OK it sounds like this isn’t just “I’m not sure” its “I really don’t like the guy” in which case, break it off.
I wanted to have a small ceremony in a shul in Venice. It would have been a fraction of the cost, but I was denied.
Wolf, if its seperate seating, we usually decline (the spouse who isn’t friends). Sometimes we decline with mixed seating because its just too expensive and annoying to get a babysitter.
Honestly, I think people have to start self policing. It doesn’t matter if your friend has 16,000 people at her wedding and got 47 karats of diamonds. get what you can afford, takanos or no takonos.
Aries, I know his fiancee who is an amazing woman! His wedding is going to be at Ateres Avraham.
I think its all relative. I like the hotels the best – the most amazing wedding I’ve seen was at the Waldorf.
$0.
following the halacha cannot cause shalom bayis problems.
That’s not true.
Following halacha can cause shalom bayis problems if both husband and wife aren’t on the same page. Especially if one wants to keep halacha and one doesn’t.
Transgressing halacha may not cause shalom bayis problems if both are on the same page. For example, if both husabnd and wife decide to hit McDonald’s for a cheeseburger, it wouldn’t cause shalom bayis issues.
Not a tznius issue.
I once asked a man I worked with to move my car. It was crammed in between 11 vehicles, needing to backed out in an electrical substation with people milling about and construction debris everywhere.
He agreed no problem.
I don’t think I would ask a stranger though.
Thanks mdd. I’ve never heard that term used before. I know what a Y/Z relationship is 🙂
first, for you to give her, is simply assur!!
I don’t know the halachot of tzedaka that well, but why would it be assur? 7th day adventists are not necessarily considered A”Z. In addition, you can give maaser to non-Jews if they are needy (at least, per my Rav).
1) Almond milk is not artificial and can be made at home
2) Soy products (including cheese, fake meat etc) are very common nowadays. Maybe not in the corner grocery of Brooklyn, but everywhere else I’ve ever shopped.
3) I would imagine that if a restaurant has hashgacha and openly states they are a Meat restaurant or a Dairy restaurant, and you see something that may look suspicious, read the menu. Most of them same “fake pepperoni” or “soy cheese.”
4) I think this whole topic is interesting but in the vein of looking for trouble.
What do they need popa? A cage?
mdd, Yissochar/Zevulun is not charity. Its a business relationship. I’m actually in favor of that if you pay the Kollel man enough to earn a living wage. It may take a few families to sponsor that. I have no problem with voluntary support of people learning Torah.
Why is it ok for universities to recieve grants? Grants are in place to foster learning, creativity and ultimately, the betterment of society. There are tangible benefits to government grants.
I don’t know what chachazokas ha’Torah is. Can you please explain?
smartcookie, my response was to mytake’s question on why frum women get defensive on this topic. As a general rule, the women who are dressed “very inappropriately” by frum standards either fall within the most lenient halachic opinions or are slightly outside and definitely not worse than what is seen on the street.
As to men looking at inappropriate materials on the internet, that has little to do with how women dress either. There is a huge problem in the non-Jewish world as well. Wives do not want their husbands watching this stuff. You can’t claim those men don’t see scantily clad women right?
Are you telling me that everyone has already gone to extremely frugal lifestyles to be able to pay for tuition? That has not been my experience in any of the schools. Nor on any of the frum internet forums I’ve discussed this on.
IME, having cleaning help is the norm in frum society not the exception.
mytake, there are plenty of rabbonim who allow it. For a sefer, check out R’ Henkin’s sefer on tznius. You won’t agree on it, but that’s ok its out there.
Now that you know there are halachically sanctioned opinions that allow uncovered elbows, look for another excuse.
My two questions were seperate. They were just two questions.
As to parents paying as much as they can – I find that highly suspect. A huge percentage of parents have cleaning help. Let them get rid of the help and use that money for additional tuition. I’m sure plenty of them have jewelry to sell off that they can give towards more tuition. There are cheaper apartments a little further off that they can move to. They can start eating more lentils. Its rare that a family has no way to reduce expenses to give more towards tuition.
People don’t want to make choices that are fiscally responsible and therefore don’t. Unless a child won’t be in Yeshiva if the parents are asked for more money, they shouldn’t be given carte blanche scholarships. Its ok to make families tighten their belts a little more.
GAW, Maayanot (a girl’s high school in Teaneck) recently sent out a letter stating that if your child goes to an expensive summer camp (most kids go post tenth grade on a touring camp experience), you are in jeopardy of losing your scholarship, regardless of who paid for the trip.
I wouldn’t be embarrased to use a scholarship, if I was doing everything I could to get off of scholarship. If I were in school, I would expect to need the temporary reprieve, but would assume I would repay my debt as well.
Health, how did my position deligitimize anyone who disagrees with me?
There are rabbonim who allow plenty of things I disagree with – including tax evasion. It doesn’t mean I have to agree with them.
Avram, he should get out of Kollel ASAP and figure out how to start supporting a family.
mytake, my Rav allows uncovered elbows. But a yeshivish person cringes at that. Well, that’s your problem not mine. If you have hirhurim for seeing my elbow, I am NOT responsible for following my Rav.
Is Rabbi Shapiro being paid chodesh l’shana?
If Rabbi Shapiro is so beloved, why aren’t parents doing more to pay more in tuition, rather than rely on scholarships?
mytake, if the internet and chatting is so terrible, why are you participating on YWN?
I think in a perfect world, the internet would be 100% clean according to my standards 🙂
mytake, there are so many different opinions on tznius. Most frum women do fall in with the most lenient opinions out there. That’s why its hard to take the “if only that woman would cover her knee 100%, I wouldn’t be tempted” complaints seriously.
When you walk down the street, you see plenty of women scantily clad. If the frum woman who’s skirt is mid knee is bothering you, it has nothing really to do with what she is wearing and more to do with your own issue.
And that is aside from which, just because a woman is doing the wrong thing, doesn’t mean it gives the man the right to transgress.
If a woman is a moredes and the man is struggling, he should try to fix the problem that caused the woman to be a moredes. Or seek divorce if that’s unworkable. He shouldn’t blame the woman.
Avram, I do have a lot of respect for people earning honest wages (in addition to what GAW pointed out). That being said, if you are going to live a certain lifestyle, you need to fund it.
So, if you are going to live in Iowa and have two kids who both go to public school, live in a tiny house and drive an old beat up truck, chances are you can live nicely on a Janitor’s salary.
If you are going to live in BP, have 9 kids, send them all to private school and marry them off in big fancy weddings, you need to figure out how to support that lifestyle.
GAW,
More than likely, they’ll be working until the day they die in a low end job. They’ll choose Kollel up front and paying off tuition later.
Others, may choose to get a career and be more financially responsible. They are more likely to be able to save for retirement, retire earlier and learn in their old age for significantly longer.
Should someone supporting a child or SIL in Kollel no longer be eligible for a scholarship?
Absolutely. But I bet you knew that 🙂
IMO, scholarships should be moved to loans that must be repaid on a schedule, starting from the day the child graduates from high school. This way, the school has a continuous revenue stream.
It will also encourage fiscal responsibility because people will have to consider if their new car is worth being more and more in debt to the schools. [This should be a legal, 0% loan and inheritence should first go to pay off the loans]. Rare exceptions will be given.
Health, I said in my opinion.
If you (the proverbial you) want to live your life on charity, I can’t stop you. But I can let you know I think your behavior is unethical.
IMO, its unethical for a person who has the ability to support themselves to choose not to and live off of the charity of others.
Sometimes I wonder if the ones who get the most schar are the FFBs who are really orthoprax (orthodox in practice, not in belief). I know that sounds heretical, but its a lot harder to keep mitzvos when you don’t believe they are necessary.
So if you are staying frum because of social pressure or the inability to break away, but still stay frum in private (meaning at times when no one would see and only affect you), that seems tremendous.
m in Israel, unethical does not always mean illegal.
Smile, speak to your Rav. Its not just a matter of splitting, its also a matter of where your money goes.
For instance, you are supposed to support the poor in your family and city before others.
Also, if you go for the organization route, look for those with low overhead.
Who am I to ask a question on daas Torah? Especially when he isn’t MY daas Torah?
Are we now a religion that believes in perfect leaders? Or is no one here allowed to ask questions on Rabbi Tendler? He is certainly daas Torah.
Now, I don’t know his exact reasoning for agreeing to a $7 million shul. But why can’t it be discussed? I don’t think any Rav is above questioning. It’s not disrespectful to ask “why.” Especially because I did discuss something positive he did in the neighborhood.
real-brisker, people are constantly harping on the rich. Most rich people I know give a TON of money to tzedaka. They give more in a month than many people make in a year. Why shouldn’t they enjoy themselves at a fancy hotel for Pesach?
As to the shul, I’ve seen the shul and can’t quite imagine what cost $7 million to build. But I wonder why a $2 million shul wouldn’t have done for him. Interstingly enough, Rabbi Schlesinger did tell all his congregants that no house in the area was worth more than a certain amount (I think $500,000 maybe?) to cap the housing increases.
