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Notpashut, I’m not asking her to agree with my psak, just that she learns to respect that not everyone follows the same psak. By saying that list is meant for everyone, she is attempting to invalidate/disrespect my psak. Thats what I am trying to get her to understand. The pointed questions I asked were to try to get her to broaden her mind to understand that in halacha there is really only one opinion and there can rarely be a universal list, especially like the one posted on the first page.
I’ll update the battery thread about Hazel.
I didnt realize women *need* cosmetics. I certainly dont use them.
Dr. Pepper – thanks for the engineering help/offer, but I’m already an engineer! Anon is too (if I’m not mistaken).
Brooklyn, the way I look at it is there are two possible responses:
1) You think my halachic psak is invalid and everyone should be following that list, no matter what their Rav says
2) You agree that as long as you are following your posek, this list is irrelevant. In which case, you agree with my point.
If your answer is #1, I would like to know why you think that. After all, “Asei l’cha rav” is a fundamental part of Judaism. Are you basing your statements on your Rav? Did he approve this list? Did he say this is the list that everyone, including those who follow a different rav, should follow?
I am really interested to hear your response.
@Brooklyn, isnt the point of a debate to get “others started” to have an open dialogue.
As for my point of “That list caters to a specific group of people and is not halacha across the board” – please either agree, or refute. If you refute, please bring backup!
Brookyln, there are many different halachic opinions on what constitutes dressing tzanua. For example, my Rabbi allows me to wear pants (I need them for work). He also allows slits and shoes/sandals without socks. So I am following my Rabbi, but the OP didnt allow for any of that! She just stated “her list.” I am not saying my list is for everyone, just that her list is not either.
As for her point about women covering all their hair (except possibly for a tefach) – this is a machlokes also! There are opinions that say only a HEAD covering is neccesary, there are those that say not even a tefach can show. That list caters to a specific group of people and is not halacha across the board.
Dr. Pepper, are you also an engineer? I might have missed what you do.
I love all the math questions! It brings me back some good memories of math for fun 🙂
shindy, is it sweet? I cant imagine trying that.
Brooklyn, I’m 26 so I’m not too far from the “teenage” stage. I remember how easy it was to get drugs and alcohol…I know how easy it is to fall into traps. BUT! sheltering your teenagers until you marry them off does nothing to teach them how to live.
My mother followed Illini’s parenting philosophy (with the exception of her SS# – for various reasons, everyone in my immediate family know all our SS# and pertinent information). My mother knew her children and knew that she could trust us. How did she know that? Because she slowly gave us more and more responsibility and we proved ourselves. This was all going on from the time we were little kids.
For the most part, my mother didnt have that many rules. Her basic rules were that she had to know where I was going, approximately when I was going to be home and who I was with. She also allowed me to hang out in coed situations so long as I didnt date anyone exclusively. She allowed me full access to the liquor cabinet. For the most part, I hung out with girls, didnt drink and never did anything bad.
Why? Because I had my mothers trust and I didnt want to lose it. Her trust was more important to me than any guy, or any drugs or any bad thing. She provided me with kosher outlets (for example, when I wanted to have boys over that was fine, but with some basic rules) and nothing bad happened. I was shomeret negiah, usually home at a normal hour, hanging out with my friends.
The worst thing I did as a teenager: my friend had her permit (no license) and she picked me up. My mother mentioned how nice it was that my friend got her license and I didnt respond. Later, I fessed up to my mother because I felt so guilty. She didnt punish me because she understood that I made a mistake and learned from it all by myself.
Does this parenting style work for every child? NO, but thats where parenting comes in. If your kid cant handle the freedom, dont give it to them.
I just want to add that many girls I know get married at 18 and basically right out of high school. So at 17 (6 months before they get married), they are not able to handle responsibility but then just 6 months later they can handle marriage? I find that hard to believe.
teenager, I agree. Although, to be fair, I havent been to the holocaust museum in Washington in ten years or more.
I was at the opening of the new Yad Vashem building and it was very meaningful. My great uncle died and donated quite a bit of money there so his family was invited to attend. They had great speakers, and we combined it with a trip to Germany to see my grandparents home towns to get a real picture of where they came from. It was a sad, moving trip.rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
supermom – if someone is concentrating so hard on one mitzvah, to the point of adding on chumras that take a lot of their energy, and then transgress other areas that is a problem. If wearing sandals is halachically ok and you concentrate so hard on not wearing them (even though you want to, you restrain yourself)but then are over on actually issurim?
My point is not to transgress halacha but dont concetrate on chumra to the exclusion of other things. It happens way to often in Jewish circles.
supermom – I have a problem with people taking on so many chumras relating to tznius, shoving it down everyone’s throats BUT still not internalizing Torah. There are plenty of people who are so strict with their tznius levels (more than halacha requires) but then run cash businesses. Why not follow halacha on all levels before trying to be so stringent in one area? Especially because many times its more of a “what’s not nice we dont show” than a desire to keep halacha so absolutely.
@Gavra LOL!!!
Last year my family did this – everyone had to write something on a piece of paper about what you would give someone. Like – a batch of homemade cookies, or an invitation for shabbos or free babysitting. Then, someone told a story (pre-written) that had left and right all over it. You kept passing the papers around in a circle until the end. You got whatever was on the paper! It was very entertaining!
Yanky, I got it but for some reason they didnt post my response. I love Get Smart!
ujm – kids who are looking for ways to make trouble in any form do not need a cell phone to enable them to do so.
Yashrus – do you have cooking facilities in your dorm? Try cooking for your roomates! I assume you get meals at the yeshiva, but try having a few of you getting together and you each make a dish. It would be fun and productive!
You can also search online for simple recipes. I like allrecipes.com but you do have to adjust them to kosher varieties.
Brooklyn, Oomis doesnt seem to be living in a bubble, just actually monitoring the kids and making sure they use the cell phone properly.
I see nothing wrong with HS kids having cell phones as long as someone is watching out. Yes, bad things can happen with cell phones, but for safety reasons I would want my kids to have them in high school.
I think most of the time parents are too lazy to monitor and deal with their kids using technology and tahts where the problem lay. Not the cell phone itself.
Intellegent, we agree 🙂 Just a semantics thing!
Yashrus – I might have missed this, but are you still living at home? If so, try cooking for your family. You dont have to start with whole meals if you arent up to it, try starting with one or two things.
Good luck! When I got married, I stuck my husband in the kitchen and said “Your turn to make dinner!” He floundered a bit but now is an excellent cook!
madshtark – its how I met my husband! I’m happily married with one kid.
I never said any kiruv Rabbi would tell them to drive to shul.
BUT! Kiruv Rabbis do recommend taking on one thing at a time and going slow. Talk to any baal teshuva and they will probably tell you that. So while no one says “Yes go out and break this halacha” they do tell baalei teshuva to start with one thing (like, trying to keep shabbos on friday night until they are comfortable with that).
Feel free to pretend to misunderstand my point, but I am sure you get it by now.
Bogen, many happy marriages have also started from an “innocent conversation.”
Bogen – not allergic to supporting the Torah – allergic to supporting everyone and his eight brothers sitting and learning Torah. I work hard to have money to support my family. This includes yeshiva tuition (supporting Torah Chinuch), shul dues (supporting my Rabbi), giving Tzedaka to hungry and needy people…
When I haven enough spare after that, come back to me and ask me to support a generation of Kollel supporters who probably would mock my piskei halacha. Um, I’m not “Jewish” enough for you, please dont ask for my money.
Will Hill I dont think any of us are against Kollel, the equation I am against is:
Myhardwork+mymoney=myfamilytosupport+kollelfamilytosupport
I understand the addiction – and its a tough one! I would say harder than the “big” addictions because those are much more obvious.
If you are really having trouble controlling yourself, and dont need the computer (for work or anything) – I would give it up.
First though, set realistic time limits for yourself. Lets say 30 minutes twice a day? Then get a timer out, and set it for 30 minutes. When its up, its up. If you really want to do this but dont have the strength and have windows Vista, you can program it to do it for you.
Mrs Beautiful – isnt mayo eggs and oil? Isnt that carb free?
This thread is truly disturbing. I cannot believe that people think a girl who cannot pick out a prospective mate is ready for marriage.
AND
I cannot believe that people would relieve themselves of thought in non-halachic issues to be led solely by a Rabbi, without thinking themselves.
Oomis, I agree with your post 100%. Besides, calling a woman a Rabbi is bad grammar – its rabbanit!
I said once said to my feminist friend that I didnt quite understand why she would wear tefilin if she didnt keep other stuff. She said “No one says that to men. No one denies them the right to wear tefilin even if they arent 100% on everything else.” I countered with the fact that they are obligated to wear tefilin but women are not, so it would make sense to concentrate on things that apply to her no matter what. She just said this was how she connected with Hashem. I didnt want to keep up the battle, but I disagree with her method. Then again, who am I to judge? So I accept what she does.
brooklyn – not outLEARN but outEARN. Meaning the women earn more money than the men. If you look at society in general, men outearn the women (even in the same jobs) and its one of the gripes of feminists 🙂
Intellegent, I think we are back to semantics 🙂
When I say I “accept” someone – its that I accept that I cannot change what they are going to do. I “accept” that they will (drive to shul, run a cash business…) and I will not judge them for it. I understand that this is against halacha.
You are wrong in one aspect though – sometimes, the end justifies the means. If the person who is driving to shul grew up conservative, and is driving to an orthodox shul to become a baal teshuva, we accept that they are breaking halacha to get closer to Torah Judaism. In fact, most rabbis encourage baalei teshuva to take it slow, which means they will still be breaking halacha.
Why people accept the “cash business” from supposedly frum people is beyond me though. I think its time for Rabbis to take a big stand against stealing.
Dveykus, you said “I can’t understand why anyone would choose to “davka” use that avenue, unless they are looking to prove a feministic agenda”
There are many women who enjoy learning gemara because they enjoy that kind of halachic debate. It is a way that they can get closer to hashem. My friends who are really shtark learners do it truly because they enjoy it, not because of some feminist agenda. Learning gemara is much more lively then reading a mussar or halacha sefer. I always enjoyed following things from Tanach through the gemara and then rishonim and acharonim. We did a bunch of this in High School. It really shows you the logic and depth of Torah that you do not get from basic halacha/mussar sefarim alone.
The truth is my most “feminist” friends dont learn gemara but wear tefilin. That was one that I never truly understood.
I think feminism is a word that is misused in the Torah world. It does NOT mean a women who wants to be exactly like a man. Sure there were people like Gloria Steinem who were radicals – but women like here were needed as an extreme to get the equality that women have today.
And, I still maintain that kollel has created a feminist society. Its one of the few groups in the world where women outearn the men 🙂
Anon I just put the whole container in. And yes, it was daisy and they doubled the coupons. You have literate cashiers? Mine always just scan, scan, scan! (the best kind of course LOL). I cant imagine it would be bad using it plain – maybe it would be a little watery? Next time I need sour cream I’ll try and let you know.
Chatty: the maltzeit thing is a declaration that the meal is over. Its the “start counting time” for waiting between meat and dairy. Its a minority yekke minhag.
We didnt get married facing the wall, but we got married outside. So there technically wasnt a wall 🙂 We did face the crowd though. And we sang shir hamaalos.
Sour cream freezes well too! I found some on sale recently at shoprite for $1.29 and used a 60 cents off coupon (that doubled to 1.20) so 9 cents per container. I’m saving them for cheesecake 🙂
Yogurt also freezes well.
Another reason why the Red Cross does not get a dime of my money (they also refused to help my grandmother and great grandmother during Kristallnacht).
Chatty: Yes my mother is 100% yekke, my father not at all. We dont really follow yekke minhagim, but there are a few things that we do. I got married under a talis. We say “maltzeit” after bentching (you may not know what this is – its a more minor yekke custom). You can consider yourself a “real” yekke because you follow all the minhagim. 🙂
tzippi, arent colored peppers $3.99 at most grocery stores? I dont buy peppers very often, but the green ones are harsher in flavor so when I do I get colored ones at Cotsco. I usually splurge on peppers for special dinners or special company!
There are very few staples in our house – I dont bake that much (except for challah) and we are very flexible with what we eat. There is virtually nothing we cant live without if the price gets too high.
My friend went to Yeshiva of Manhattan Beach – is that school still open? It was a Coed modern orthodox school.
Good luck!
shindy – the spice and spirit cookbook is the best thing ever!! They have all your basic “Jewish” recipes that I usually start with. Some are awesome right off the bat and some are good bases for fancifying. I love, love, love that cookbook. My mother uses her always also!!
Chatty, I’m half yekke!
I loved Camp!! I went to Sternberg from the time I was 7 until 14. I loved it. Then I went on a touring camp of Israel the following summer and then I got real jobs. It was fantastic.
Tzippi, you eat a lot of eggs! We go through about a dozen a month (but we dont eat too many kugels – I like my veggies in a more natural state).
Also, find out if anyone you know has a costco membership – certain things are much cheaper there (but you have to know prices). Cottage cheese is really cheap. Remember though things come in big tubs so you have to go through a lot. Colored peppers are REALLY cheap there (I think red/yellow/orange are $1.99/lb) but you have to look at the packages. Some come from Israel (others are holland or mexico).
Intellegent, if certain things were not acceptable, “cash businesses” would not be allowed. As a general rule, orthodoxy has decided whats “acceptable.” I am not saying everyone finds these things acceptable but the communities will accept them. You dont see people in cash businesses being put in charem for stealing from the government (and thus all of Americans). But I bet if a frum person started driving to shul there would be some serious repercussions. Hypocrisy is part of how ALL religions are practiced. Also, I dont think anyone here said driving to shul is CORRECT, just that its not really for us to judge.
The Big One – I stand by my statement that “But just because someone does not drive to shul on shabbos doesnt make them a better Jew than someone who does.” You dont know how Hashem judges everyone. You dont know if that person driving to shul brings them closer to follow Torah Judaism. And while we dont condone breaking halacha, its not up to us to decide who is the better Jew. Obviously, the goal is 100% halacha following Jews, but some people need steps.