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Squeak, my husband doesnt believe in mixed swimming and immodest dressing, nor that shmiras einayim and negiah are not worth keeping. You obviously don’t know anything about MO. If you want to say that because some MO people do those things that makes it a MO thing, that would mean Charedim believe in abuse and tax evasion.
My husband believes in MO philosophy and now follows a MO rav. He was so glad to leave yeshivish society because of the attitude and hypocrisy.
Eyesopen – actually, teh reason for so many multiples lately is in vitro fertilization. During IVF, multiple fertilized embryos are implanted. Depending on how many eggs are implanted (usually 2-3), the possibility of multiples skyrockets.
Intellegent, don’t feel bad about him helping – marriage is an equal partnership. So, if he has some time to cook/clean and you don’t, then he should do it. (as you said he does, so I’m not implying he doesnt)
Honestly, I don’t know that many feminists who would have a problem with All the feminists may attack me on this, but it is just more natural for a woman to diaper a baby and wash the dishes as it is for the man to drill in a nail and build the succa. Of course you will always find people who are opposite but that is the nature. Its more that there should be options for women to drill nails if they want to. Its about freedom of choice, even if that choice is traditional (I know many “feminists” who stay home with their kids).
Oomis – I agree 100% that the system needs an overhaul! And that the husband is parenting not babysitting! About two weeks after my son was born, I went to a shower. I left the baby home with my husband. Everyone kept asking who was babysitting and I said no one, he is with his father! Sheesh! The husband and wife should be taking equal roles in the household (split in a way thats good for them).
Torah is not an intellectual exercise. It is our guideline for how to live. Unfortunately, for many men, its an intellectual excersize.
Bored@work – I think seminaries do subtle brainwashing many times (how much is dependant on where you go). Even if they don’t brainwash you, they really push you towards Kollel without showing you how hard it is. It would be good if each student would go over to a kollel couple’s house (ones without rich parents and in laws) and learn about how hard it is to budget with a kollel stipend and a wife’s salary. How there is no money for luxuries like new clothing, manicures, cleaning help, cars, jewelry, eating out at restaurants…its great if you are willing to give that up, but at least KNOW what you are going into. I think seminary tends to idealize kollel without showing the hardships.
BYM – seminary is a wonderful experience for many people, but yes, they do use the opportunity to “brainwash” people (levels dependant on the sem you attend). Its not the end result people find offensive, but the method. Does that make sense?
About Amram/Yocheved (or rather, on a similiar vein), it always amazed me that people during the holocaust had babies. I cannot imagine being in the midst of all those horrors and bringing a child into the world. They were truly amazing people.
I cannot believe what some people are saying on this thread.
Squeak, the disrespect you show for R’ Soloveitchik is uncalled for. If nothing else, the term Rabbi is from gaining smicha (which is a degree nowadays since we don’t have mesorah) which he has. Is there a reason anyone should show any respect to “your” rabbonim? Imagine if I made nasty comments about R’ Avigdor Miller himself – you would be up in arms. Yet, the reverse is ok. R’ Soloveitchik was an exceptional rav – you want to question his philosophy? his piskei halacha? That’s fine. I do that with many rabbonim. When you degenerate to disrespecting him by calling him his English initials, that is NOT ok. Just remember, Hashem can forgive you for sins against Him, but not against other people.
As for the gay club and transgender professor – first, remember that its not assur to be gay, just to act out on gay feelings. I have no idea what goes on at this club, but you might not either. Maybe its more like an AA for orthodox gay men who are struggling with this? The transgender professor is a very sticky subject that the YU rabbonim came out against. Unfortunately, we live in a country that has rules and there was no way to stop this from going through. I don’t know if you know laws of tenure, but it was only after he had tenure that he told them he was having an operation. The laws of discrimination in the country are designed to protect people – Jews included. Remember that.
The point isn’t that it is wrong for anyone to be MO. Its all about madreigas. If someone is not religious, becoming MO going up many madreigas. For him MO is good. But for a Chareidi to consider becoming MO, is going down many madreigas.
Mod72 – I went to school there!
And I know of plenty of kids who played with matches and didn’t get burned.
Are you giving your 13 year old a box of matches to play with?
Was I the only responsible teenager here? I was using matches (safely) at 13.
Many parents let their kids start babysitting at 10 – you would trust a 10 year old to watch a fragile baby but not to light a match? Or how about turning on the stove? That is lighting a fire! It really depends on the kid and these blanket statements are just getting more and more ridiculous. I find myself wondering more and more how much you believe compared with what you say.
kiruvwife, you sound like a wonderful, sincere person, and yasher koach for what you sacrificed for Kollel.
Anon, the same goes for you. Its wonderful that you didn’t take the Kollel stipend since you didn’t need it. Others might have said they would take it and live more comfortable or save it or something. That in and of itself is probably a big zechus!
Sometimes, I look at some kollel couples and wonder what they are sacrificing. They are being supported by their parents, including nice cars, vacations, cleaning ladies…it just makes me suspect how noble their sacrifice to learn Torah is. A friend of mine has a husband in Kollel. They sacrifice a lot and work hard. A friend of her husband’s came to borrow money from them because his in-laws were no longer supporting them and his wife still wanted to maintain the same lifestyle (expensive clothing, fancy jewelry, manicures all the time etc)…perhaps they would be better off with a working husband.
The Gedolim Shlita are sure to thank you for all these wonderful ideas that they didn’t come up with on their own.
Joseph, the gedolim are NOT omnicient. Sometimes, it would be helpful if they listen to a myriad of opinions. I am not saying they don’t, just that its not wrong to bring up some good ideas that could be helpful to the klal. Also, sometimes, someone who is too deeply involved may have trouble seeing certain helpful things.
Brooklyn, there is a reason we are educated with halacha. When I learnt hilchos shabbos and how to apply it, I don’t bother my Rabbi every time I come across a situation, unless the situation is different than what I was taught about. Can you imagine if I would ask my Rabbi every week about the same thing? Its ludicrous! So, my Rabbi tells me what the halacha is, and then I apply it. When I come across something that is different, then I consult my Rav again.
I have to be able to apply halacha to my own life. There is no one standing there with me at every step of the way. Otherwise, we would each have our own Rabbi walking right behind us. Its a crazy thought.
I would rather have my Rav spend time answering questions that need answering, not “Should I attend sheva brachos?” The only time I would consult him on going to sheva brachos for example might be if its for someone I know who is Reform because they might count me in a minyan (I have no clue if reform does sheva brachos, just a hypothetical). I never hesitate to call my Rav if the situation warrants it, but I don’t bother my Rav unnecessarily!
Aryeh, Avi Weiss may have been educated in YU, but it doesnt mean that he encompasses what MO teaches. Some PP have expanded on this, but if you want me to, I will also.
000646 its a shame that many people on this site (not all) seem to just say “Well, if my Rav says it, there is no way someone else could have a different opinion and also be right, so anyone who disagrees with my Rabbi is unequivically wrong.”
oomis, thank you! I find I usually agree with you as well! I find it so hard to transmit what I am trying to say without tone/inflection, so I really try to think about my words (with few exceptions, including my nasty comment to intellegent).
Any MO person who does anything wrong, they are not really MO.
Any yeshivish/chassidish etc person that does wrong it is because they are yeshivish/chassidish and that means that yeshivish/chassidish crowds condone their actions.
Intellegent, that is not what any of us are saying. I will assume you meant it tongue in cheek, but if not, please let me know and I will respond properly.
Joseph, your fake piety is sickening.
Brooklyn, not sure why this would be a MO vs Charedi thing, since neither school of thought was around back then.
What I learnt about it, was that each marragiable young woman borrowed a white dress from someone poorer than her, and went dancing in a field, where a man would pick her out. Then they would get married.
Truth be told, it does sound a little strange, so there may be more to it than that, or my memory is completely wrong, so maybe someone who is more knowledgable can answer 🙂
I know the difference between TIDE and MO, but TIDE led the way for MO. THey took R’ Hirsch’s philosophies in a different path. But he was the stepping stone.
I was educated by a MO Rabbi who had close ties to Reb Moshe and Rav Soloveitchik. I went to Stern for 1 year (it wasn’t for me) and transfered out to engineering school.
As for modern: modernity encompasses many branches and that includes technology. Truth be told, you could make a far better case to leaving technology out of Judaism to prevent many of our current issues more than leaving out modern science and mathematics.
Squeak, as for “If you are sitting at a shabbos table with single boys and girls or mishing at a singles kiddush and think that you’re OK because R’ Shachter and R’ Willig don’t compromise on halacha, well, you should think again. You are OK only if YOU are OK” – this is a statement that comprises ALL OF JUDAISM.Just because your Rav is doing things right, doesnt mean that you are. MO is no exception to this rule!
MO does not compromise on halacha. Yes, some people within MO are either ignorant or just don’t care and break halacha. This isn’t novel – its within ALL branches of orthodoxy.
If you know Rav Shachter, why not ask him if he considers himself MO? I’m curious to his answer – but just realize, his clientele is all MO and goes to him for their questions.
Its such a shame that there are so many right wing people who just bash MO as being anti-halacha. It shows the true ignorance of them.
Brooklyn, Rav Soloveitchik never promoted breaking halacha either. Neither do the MO rabbonim (I would exclude R’ Avi Weiss because he is not really MO).
Intellegent, it was only the last line of my post that was offensive. The rest was not. It was just posted – feel free to read it (and then skip the last line 🙂
The Wolf,
I think Joseph gets angry because you speak truth, and Joseph doesnt like that the truth doesnt fit in with his narrow form of Judaism.
yros, my husband’s family used to do seperate seating. I didnt like it because my husband really wanted to talk to his grandmother who was on the other side. The last two years they did away with it and I think its much nicer. After all, the men in the family talk to women anyway, so why avoid sitting at a (spacious) table with them?
Intellegent, I would like to apologize for the last line in my previous post. It was harsh and uncalled for. Do you forgive me?
curious, teach us please!
lets see how this goes
I post at 5 am because thats when I have time.
Joseph, sometimes you really disgust me.
The “zionist” army is the one who protects the men learning in Yeshiva from being slaughtered. So, lets remove the army for ONE DAY and see how many Jews are left.
Brooklyn, our enemy is constantly changing. Aside from the fact that Jews were only tolerated in Arab countries with huge bribes and severely restricted freedoms. To the Arabs, Israel is actually the greatest thing. It deflects from their gross negligence of the population and gives them a “cause” to champion. Even if Israel would be wiped off the map chas vishalom, then the Arabs would just turn around and fight each other.
I am so greatful for having Israel under Jewish control. Would I prefer that certain halachas would be enforced? Sure – but we don’t have a proper halachic government to lead us. Be greatful for the ability to go to Israel, daven there, learn there. Have some hakaras hatov.
Why are NYers so depressed?
Because the light at the end of the tunnel is NJ 🙂
Oomis – the fact that they say she is too picky because of the height thing is crazy. I appreciated that my cousin went out with him because I set her up. It wasnt for her – I respect that. I’m 5’3″ and could never date a short guy either. FYI – the guy got married to a girl who is really short (like 4’10 or so).
Attraction is an important part of marriage. No, you shouldnt build a marriage on attraction alone, but it is very important in a marriage.
I am very lucky – I met my husband on my own and didnt have to get set up. It was fantastic.
brooklyn, halacha gives us guidelines on how we live our lives. We should be able to follow those guidelines without running a rav at every step. (Unless you are chassidish – IIRC they go to their Rebbi for most things like who to marry and other things)
The rabbonim have to pick and choose what they battle over (non-halachic issues only). For example, look at the wedding takanos – no one I know really follows them. Why? Because the exceptions are for the rich or the rabbonim…which means that its not a halachic issues, just an issue the rabbonim have championed. When the community rejects a takana or statement from rabbonim, it reduces the rabbonim to “figure heads” rather than spiritual leaders. Rabbonim are nothing if no one follows them (think about this before responding and try to understand what I mean. If you can’t quite get it, I can expand on it). The last time they cancelled this was a debacle – lets hope they don’t do something like taht again.
Joseph, I know plenty of teenagers that had/have cellphones and stayed on the derech. Actually, of the people I know who went off (and I realize this is a small sample point), none had cell phones as teenagers.
Actually, if I had a teenager right now that wanted to build bonfires, I would teach him/her about fire safety, not forbid lighting fires. When I was a teenager, my friends and I used to build plenty of bonfires. They were lots of fun.
kiruvwife, I understand what you mean. For people who are in Kollel and are truly sincere, I am sure that is true.
I wonder then if the current generation of Kollel men have it too easy? Does making it too easy for them to learn take away some of the spirituality of it? As a former “member of the club” what do you think?
I agree 100%. That’s why it bugs me when MO complain that chareidim are “machmirim”.
I think what many MO people are talking about is that there are plenty of times that Charedim take halacha and add a chumra, that the community takes on as a halacha. Then, the yeshivish people forgo any other possible halachic ruling and say what they are doing is the minimum.
Joseph: notpashut, the reason so many MO fellows villify and attack Chareidim/Chasidim/etc. is the same reason so many of the non-orthodox villify and attack the Orthodox.
The reason modern orthodoxy is withering on the vine (while Chareidim are growing by leaps and bounds — both internally and through the Baal Teshuva movement), is because by and large the MO children either become more Chareidi, or they move further left and R’L fall off the Jewish map.
Intellegent, my (yeshivish) friend who eats cholov yisroel was told by her Rabbi that if there was a big financial or taste difference she could use cholov stam. Since money is not really an object for her, she eats cholov stam ice-cream because the taste is significantly better than cholov yisroel. Chocolate is also significantly better. Cholov yisroel milk and dairy products are significantly more expensive. Why would I pay $2 for a container of sour cream when I can pay 9 cents?
You tend to have opinions but have little fact to back it up.
As long as he knows all the good local pubs 🙂 (after all, why else would you go to Ireland but to get rip roaring drunk LOL)
kiruvwife, I don’t think debate is a bad thing. Its not about attacking someone else, just trying to understand a different view point!
Can you expand on your spiritual luxury phrase? I am not quite sure I understand it.
The first time I saw these cars was in Athens – they are fantastic for places like Europe where the roads are tiny and cars have trouble getting through. These are also great for single people who don’t need much passenger/cargo room.
In the US, the land of bigger is better, you would be crushed by an SUV without much trouble.
I have a job and no longer get “winter vacation.”
However, with the fall yom tovim falling out mainly on shabbos/sunday this year, I will have spare days!
I am planning to go either to Panama, Iceland, Peru or Ireland. It depends on time/budget!
anon, unfortunately I didnt get any A&H, but I did get almost everything else! I made a lot of money on sunday and monday! (I think I ended up with $40 more ECBs than I started with) I am also doing the coke deal this week for bottles for my son’s 1st birthday party. I love not having to pay for things (yes, I am blowing some bucks, but its still coming out to $6ECB for 12 bottles of soda so thats ok)
Here is a trick – save 1 manufacturer coupon for last because the MFQ can pay for tax. ECBs take away the taxable amount of the amount used (so if you use a $5 ECB, its really $5 plus tax). The mfq I use is usually a 50 cents one or $1, so its easy enough for me to calculate. This is a trick I learnt recently.
Oh and I break up my transactions so I can use many $4/20 coupons. If you need one, there is one on iheartcvs.com that expires 12/31/08. My CVS takes expired CVS coupons for one month so it still has a lot of life for me.
BTW, I started doing WAGs. So far so good!! I got 5 containers of OJ the other week for $2.97. My husband loves the stuff so it saved a fortune. One of my best transactions was paying 43 cents for 2 5 lb bags of sugar (which I was desperate for), 2 bottles of A&H detergent and 3 bottles of robitussin!!!!
asdf – I think I paid about $60 to have my hair done for MY wedding 🙂
I am so glad I never had to be set up on a date. I never would have done the whole manicure/hair/makeup thing. I’m glad my husband knew what I looked like on a normal day before we even started dating!
Its not just shadchanim who are misguided – its friends and relatives too. For example, two of my family members came over yesterday and a single friend of mine came over to drop something off. He is older (40), MO and a great catch. The two family members asked me afterwards about setting him up with this lovely women in her mid 30s – the problem – she is somewhat yeshivish and at one point wanted a kollel husband!!!!! Now, she doesnt really want that anymore (or maybe has just given up on a man who is 35+, single and still learning) but she is not right at all for a MO guy. Sheesh!! Just because they are both single does NOT mean they should date.
I dont believe in lying or pressuring people either. I set up my cousin with a fantastic guy who was short (5’5). She is 5’2″. She went out with him, but turned him down after the first date because he was short and she just wasnt 100% sure. He really liked her and wanted to go out with her again. I didnt pressure her at all when she told me no, because I believe its her decision to make, not mine.
My friend was set up with someone and the shadchan totally lied to the guy about her. He told her she was in graduate school (still in undergrad), lied about her age etc…it worked out in the end (they are happily married with 2 kids), but if that were me I would be livid. It should be MY decision to set parameters on who I date, NOT YOURS. I know this story ended happy but it really bothers me that people think lying is ok. Its not.
Notpashut,
I took a poll amongst my friends about having a Rav. Everyone told me that they do to some extent. Some are in temporary areas and use their childhood rabbonim. Others are in a permanent place and use the rav of their shul. A third category have a rav that they are using right now and are searching for a new one (for whatever reasons) but still ask the first rav their questions until they find a “permanent solution.” I only had one friend who doesnt have a Rav, but honestly, I am not sure she cares to follow halacha very well so it wouldnt matter much. I would call her on the cusp of practicing/non-practicing.
About the vilifying the black hat/charedi communities – I think the vilification goes both ways between MO and black hat /charedi. In my experience, it is also more likely to happen from the black hat community to the MO community than vice versa. I think this is because many MO kids are becoming black hat / charedi and their parents still love them and accept them. The families I know where the kids went from black hat to MO (in general) have a much harder time accepting their children for who they are.
Just remember, you admitted that you don’t think MO is halachically sound. Why are you asking the MO community to respect your halachic path when you don’t respect theirs? Isn’t that a double standard?
As for maikel/machmir – I think its a circular debate because the terms are sort of dependant on each other. 10 is greater than 9, but 11 is greater than 10. Its a reference point, rather than an absolute.
One more thing about TV: if you can accept that it wasnt damaging (and was beneficial) to me, why cant you accept that for some people it can be beneficial? I think that people who cannot handle TV should absolutely NOT use it but that its a personal decision. Thats it 🙂
Intellegent, I don’t think notpashut has had trouble saying what he thinks. We have had plenty of spirited debates on this site before where he has been involved. I just think we will have to disagree on wheter or not notpashut is the only one speaking “truth,” which is what your post seems to imply.
You didnt really flesh out your statement that you think yeshivish people are more “frum” than modern orthdox. Can you give some sort of explanation?
Sammy, can you expand on what you mean please? This is certainly a debate I want to be a part of, but I want to know if there is anything specific.
I often wonder if I could stand up to a guy with a gun who is trying to get me to sin. I’m not sure I have the strength of character to die for Hashem, but hopefully I will never have to find out.
oomis, I see we hold by the same shitta!
myshadow, It would make me happy. Thats like 10 transactions at CVS for me(or even more!)
rolling on the floor laughing
Brooklyn, ROTFL conotes a much funnier line than LOL.
Wolf you havent been around much of late! Welcome back! I enjoy your logical, sane approach amidst all the chaos 🙂
Brooklyn, I was also told not to give my husband his ring in the yichud room because then it would still be like us bartering for marriage, rather than him giving me the ring (especially because his is worth more than my wedding band).
Kiruvwife, when you are ready, I am more than willing to debate that point if you disagree (I know not everyone does). I hear both sides of the statement, but lean more towards kollel being a luxury.
intellegent, its one of the reasons I know that I can control myself. Its because I’ve “recovered” from being an adict, to just following mildly. I know I can do it with baseball, and I know I can do it with other things. I am much more vigilant about watching myself now to make sure that I dont climb down the slipperly slope with other things (yes I am human, but I do a good job of keeping watch – and I have my husband who helps me also).
Kiruv, thats probably because this topic has been discussed ad nauseum so it veered off 🙂
As to my thoughts – perhaps when the people who need the money stop looking down on those who earn the money, Kollel might be more viable.
With the current economic climate, many big baalei tzedaka can no longer give any money or have to give much more limited funds. Its going to be tough to get funding for Kollel when there are little children that are starving. My husband and I are both working in professional jobs (we both have degrees and decent paying jobs), but it takes both of us to pay the mortgage, bills, daycare…we have very few luxuries (the only thing I really consider a luxury at this point is our TV/internet/phone package of $100/month and our gardener) – I never have cleaning help, we cook 99% of our meals, we barely buy new clothing (my husband needed some new suits recently because he hadnt bought any in 4 years), I havent bought any new clothing (except maternity clothing) in about 3 years. I coupon shop to save a ton of money. We basically make ends meet and have a little left over in case anything goes wrong. How can I even begin to think about supporting a Kollel couple? Yes, I give maaser, but that primarily goes to my shul or to people who need food right now. Soon, it will go towards yeshiva tuition.
Kollel is a luxury and the branch of society that pushes it so hard needs to understand that. Every man is required to learn and most of the working men I know learn a lot. There is no exemption to stop learning just because you are working.
I havent had any sufganiyot :-/
Chuck, I tried to convince my husband to wear a sign like that LOL (just kidding)
Many times when married men dont wear rings people think that the marriage is in trouble or that the couple is seperated, making the man “free game.” I trust my husband 100%, but I would prefer a sign for other people so he doesnt get into uncomfortable situations.
My husband works for a company thats 80% male – I wonder how I would feel if there were more women at his company!!
Brooklyn, I agree with you. My husband knew just about everything about me before we got married. I don’t believe in hiding things. I would have been really POed if he hid anything important from me before we were married or even engaged.
Feivel,
I do agree with you. At point, I was following baseball like crazy. I knew every statistic, every player (major and minor leagues)…my mood would change depending on how the Yankees did (I was in a bad mood when they lost an important game). I was really hooked. At a certain point, I weaned myself off of baseball because I was just getting too obsessed.
So, I still generally keep up with the Yankees, but I dont obsess. I like to know how they are approximately doing. I kind of like that they arent good right now, because I am afraid that during the good years, I’ll get hooked again. I enjoy going to a game every once in a while, but I refuse to let myself back in completely. If I find myself really being sucked back in, I will stop being involved with them AT ALL. It was like a drug to me; I have since learnt to control myself but don’t trust myself completely.
I never thought of it as a mashal to avodah zarah, but I think I agree with that.
(Hey, is this history??? I agree with Feivel???)
Notpashut, first of all, I am sorry you feel misquoted. What I said was really tongue in cheek! I thought it came out that way but sometimes tone doesnt really show through.
Lets put R’ Miller’s statement aside for a moment….Now, I agree that for most people TV is destructive in many ways. However, that doesnt mean TV is bad, it just means if you cannot handle it, don’t use it. Also, there are plenty of ways to use TV for good – imagine if we had a kosher channel, with shiurim playing night and day! People who couldnt attend a shiur for certain reasons can see the shiur in action. Sometimes seeing how someone said something is very important! Imagine how well we could spread Torah. Yes, there are Torah tape libraries, but this is another way to spread Torah. You can have a TV service that just plays kosher things, the same way you have kosher filters on the internet. IMHO, the internet is more dangerous than TV because when you watch TV you can tell right away whats wrong, but with the internet, something thats basically kosher can turn into something unkosher. [The reason I said to take Rav Avigdor Miller’s statement out, is because I am not sure I hold by it AND I am not sure what constitutes a TV. I asked my Rav for some clarification on all this and am awaiting his response]
Now, as to having a Rav – are you sure it is the exception to have a Rav rather than the other way around? All the people I know (MO, yeshivish, chasidish) all have a Rav. Now, some people change rabbonim in their lives, but not on a constant basis! If they choose to pick the meikel or machmir side, at least they are choosing within halachic grounds. IIRC, there is some chazal that says something to the effect of “Dont live your life only machir or only meikel.”
Now about chumras: First, neither of us should have to be on the defense about the halachically acceptable path we follow. We just hold different shitas. Maikel and machmir or sort of relative terms, but being maikel doesnt mean “less frum” and being machmir doesnt mean “more frum.”
I guess sometimes its hard to define what is clearly a chumra and what is just a more machmir approach. I dont have a problem with saying “I rely on some kulos (per my rav).” That is fine with me – but I dont think you being more machmir in your approach makes you a halachically better Jew.
As for the bottle cap approach – if I didnt have one Rav, I would pick one to ask this question, and follow what he says. Yes, its better to have one Rav and be consistent, but at least you are getting a DIRECT answer, rather than what someone said one of the gedolim said. I always heard it was better to ask a Rav even if it means asking a different one a different question each time than to discern yourself what halacha to follow. [This doesnt mean to ask different rabbonim the SAME question, just that it is technically OK to ask different rabbonim different questions, even if you just want to rely on what each Rav is maikel on. Obviously not ideal, but still OK]
Lets look at my tuna fish example – I only eat dagim per my Rav. Its a more machmir approach. Does that mean people who eat Bumblebee tuna are following a halachically unacceptable path? No. Does it mean I am a better Jew for only eating Dagim? No. But its a more machmir approach. So, if I ate it, it wouldnt be kosherfor me, but for you its fine.
As for Mesilat Yesharim – I actually never learnt it. I just skimmed through it a bit (an english version) to get a bit of an understanding. I want to read it a little closer (which will take me some time), so I dont actually want to comment on the content. I do want to add that the mussar movement was sort of radical in its time – all changes are usually considered radical until fully accepted.
Now, I don’t think everyone who keeps a more machmir approach in life is silly, fanatical or incorrect, but I do think for ME, its not a good approach. I think I would wallow in details that arent neccesary to follow halacha. I think chumras are more of a personal thing and each person (with the help of their Rav) should decide what to take on.
ROB wrote a lot of great information. Thank you for what you added to the discussion!
As for what chazal say about watching yourself: I agree. And I do watch myself carefully. If I thought I was sliding (or someone pointed out to me that I was treading a thin line), I would put up gates. But right now, I don’t need them. I prefer to work on following all halacha, rather than working on chumras. In addition, there are plenty of gedarim already built in to halacha that I follow.
Pashuteh Yid, I try not to sin 🙂
Your wife’s story made me laugh.
I had some great friends who would, for about 5 minutes before the exam, tell me almost everything I needed to know to pass. The rest I would fabricate into a B+ average. I even got plenty of As. [Mostly math and russian – math comes naturally and russian was just a lot of fun]
Intellegent, I thought it was a regional type thing. Remember the sibolet/shibolet thing in Tanach? (I forgot where it is exactly)One side used that word as a password because the others said it differently. [OK, I realize this is barely information, maybe someone else can point you to the source?]
intellegent, you would make look studious.
I was always able to do no work and get by just fine. .
One year, I was reading a book in class, when my friend turned around and asked if I was ready for the chemistry test we were taking in 15 minutess. I looked at her confused and said “I’m not taking chemistry this year.” She was rolling on the floor laughing because yes, indeed I was.
Lets see if this works