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really cool idea, unfortunately i’m perfect in every way
Maybe lets start with humility 🙂
but they lie to themselves and cling with every ounce of strength to what they know to be lies, BECAUSE THEY DO NOT WANT A BOSS.
Very smart Rav! This is probably true for most people, but there are some true athiests. What I never understood is when Atheists talk about wanting a moral society without religion – how do you decide what is moral then? Its very arbritrary and many people end up using basic societal laws (like most of the Sheva Mitzvot Bnei Noach). Sorry, thats leeching off religion and God :-/
I agree with this completely. I think Hashem wants open lines of communication – its ok to say things like “I am angry because…” We are not like Christians who have to go through an intermediary to talk to Hashem – we pray directly. Tefila doesnt have to be about only praising Hashem if thats not what you are up for.*
* This is my personal opinion and to be honest, I don’t know how it fits into halacha, so maybe one of the more learned people can tell me if this is apikorsus or not.
Are women allowed to join? If yes, I’ll bite. [Doubt I really have time to join though]
Squeak, I was just pointing out that regarding advice, we were both sort of saying the same thing.
So, we have to deal realisticaly. As the shadchanim and parents know they are pushing for direct and immediate answers, they should stop because the girls are to weak and they are being harmed by those responsible for their welfare.
I agree with you about having the pressure stopped, but I also think we need to teach young women how to stand up for themselves. This is one of the most important decisions they are going to make in life, and if they cannot stand up for themselves at this junction, how are they going to do it for other important things?
As for your point about rabbonim – I don’t know where you get this idea that rabbonim are infallible. That is NOT a Jewish concept. Even Moshe Rabbenu made mistakes. We are all human, and while our rabbonim may be closer to truth than we are, they still can make mistakes.
As for rabbonim being against Shabtai Tzvi – many rabbonim were against Chassidus originally! Does that mean Chassidus is anti-halacha? NO. You cannot just use that statement to say well no one is against my Rabbi…
You are 100% correct that I don’t know who your rabbonim are – I never said I did. And to be honest, my rabbonim have NEVER put me in a situation where I thought they were doing anything that was against halacha or answering a question that they were not qualified for. BUT! That doesn’t mean its not my responsibility to make sure that when they give ADVICE to me, that I think about it and decide if its actually best for me. I am the one who has to live with it.
I think you need to seperate your responsibilities (ie making sure that you Rav is not slowly veering off the derech or giving you bad advice or overstepping his bounds in an area he has no knowledge…) from your Rav’s responsibility of making sure he is giving you good, solid advice that is within the bounds of halacha and that he has knowledge for. Now, usually both sides do what they should, but I think its naive to say “Just because my Rav gave me some advice means I should take it.”
My mother was close to her Rav from growing up. She and I had a problem at some point and she consulted him. He gave her advice that would have been absolutely disasterous for us. She did NOT take his advice and everything worked out. Had she taken his advice, it very possibly could have splintered our relationship. So who was right? In this case, not the Rav. This is a rare occurance, and the Rav thought he was acting according to the best interest of all parties involved, but was still WRONG.
Please understand that I am not talking about getting a halachic psak, which is binding (unless its proven to be against halacha).
of course this all took millions of years to develop since it was the result of random totally unrelated, unplanned, accidents (birth defects really) these beetles kept blowing themselves up in the course of the many million year experiment, but thankfully they finally got it right.
I always marvel at how many people there are that dont believe in God. How can this kind of system be a accident? These things are amazing. Many scientists try to explain away God, but just because the world has the most amazing programmer (who made it so that nature runs its course without direct divine intervention neccesary at every moment), they think there is no God. I was once talking about this with someone who told me “intellegent design” does not mean God exists. That opened a can of worms!
mazal, but that leads us to the next question: why the wasp? 🙂
Nature is very cool. I love Hashem programmed the world to run.
I would love to know all TRUTH. Although, I think if I really got that, it would also have a lot of negatives associated with it.
Squeak, but take out would cost a TON of money for 6 months. Plus, I have a baby – he needs to eat real, nutritious food 🙂
***EDITED***** is a legal term on YWN?
NO. and thank you for catching it. YW Moderator-72
PS Can’t believe there are 44 or so posts to a thread of pistacio nuts.
Thats because we are all nuts and can relate to the topic. I wouldn’t be surprised if this was the longest thread 🙂
Incidentally, peanuts are not really NUTS.
GAW, there is a lot of demo that needs to be done in the kitchen – there is an odd wall that really needs to come down to make it functional. The labor/permits cost is about $25k WITHOUT materials.
I know where to get cheaper couches – I’ve looked at them. I’ve sat on them. But ultimately, they are not as comfortable and don’t look as nice. I always shop for the best deals around, but I also don’t like to compromise.
I think Hashem has proven He doesn’t want the Mets to win LOL.
Moish, I struggle with organized prayer a lot. I find saying someone else’s words really does not convey anything. I say certain things as they are written and then ad lib most of my tefilot. Its much more meaningful when I do. Be careful of when you do it though because there are places during davening that you are not allowed to interupt. I am not an expert on it though – I usually say my tefilot seperate from organized ones. Its important to have an open communication with Hashem.
I have a big problem with materialism. Its a struggle for me. I don’t need nice clothing or shoes or fancy cars, but I really love jewelry and nice furniture! Luckily (or unluckily), I don’t have the funds to be able to afford what I want. I am the kind of person that would rather go without, than get a temporary or not so nice solution. So, my living room doesnt have a couch.
I really want to redo my kitchen, which was last done in the 1950s. Its kind of dangerous (the cabinets are falling apart) so my son is not allowed in. I don’t want to do a lower end version for $25-30,000 because I will have to redo it in 10 years. I’m waiting until I can afford to spend $50,000 and make a good, kosher kitchen. I’m really plotzing for dishwashers.
I try to work on this and its very hard. But, at least my drive for gashmius is tapered by my “cheap” gene, so ultimately it balances out.
Never doubt a work spoken by a talmid chacham you have choosen as your rav or else you have not placed all your confidences in him and aseh licha rav has not been completed. And those that don’t properly trust rabanim cannot properly trust Hashem.
Tal, this is false. You have to be on the lookout to make sure that your Rav is always true to Torah. Shabtai Tzvi led many people astray. Yes, he was a rare case, but ultimately YOU are responsible for yourself. If you find that your Rav is possibly veering away from halacha (and lets say in an extreme example says shrimp is kosher), you have to find out whats going on. Rabbonim are human – most of them are absolutely wonderful and follow halacha, but some can go astray. Trusting Hashem implicitely is very different from trusting a human being (albeit one on a higher spiritual madrega).
Rabbanim don’t speak when they are not certain. The problem is we do and therefore believe the rabbanim are like us. We speak divrei leitzanut while they speak emet and that is just the way it is though they’d never agree.
I don’t think this statement is accurate. It would be hard to verify though. While they might be much better at this than most of us, they are still human and have faults the way the rest of us do. And, if we transmit the information poorly, they won’t neccesarily understand the situation properly and give bad information. Its not that they are wrong, but ultimately, you would have followed their advice which could have been disasterous.
there are different ways to ask a Rov. One way is, as you said, to ask for an Eitzah. When you do that, you are not bound to follow what the Rov says.
You say EITZAH, I said ADVICE. I never said don’t ask, but I did say that YOU have to make the decision and that YOU are the one who lives with it. Is your Rav looking out for what’s best? YES. Does this mean he cannot be wrong? NO.
Also, my childhood Rav happens to be a doctor as well. So in that case, I could trust him if I asked him about antibiotics. But I wouldn’t ask the Rav of my shul right now because other than being a parent himself (and thus presumably having lots of ear infection experience), he is not an expert in the field. If I had a halachic medical question, then of course I would turn to my Rav. There is a great distinction.
I think GAW also had some great points.
Pardon my returning to the original question. It is mutar to throw them away, and I am a LOR although not necessarily yours.
This reminds me of a time when someone asked me something and I gave them an answer (it wasn’t a halachic issue) and I followed it up by saying “Says Rabbi <insert my last name here>” – it took them a moment to catch on 🙂
Tal, I am a woman.
However, I met my husband at 19 and never had to go through the process. I am also a lot more strong-minded than many other women though.
Perhaps if more women stood up and said “Stop the pressure” the the shadchanim would understand that many times, people need a little bit more time.
but SJS, b”h you sound happy and thats what counts now but like we said it doesnt work like that for all.
There is no one formula that works for all and makes everyone happy. I am just sharing my experience and hopefully people will realize that they have to decide on that path. Dating for 2 weeks or dating for years – do what is right for YOU, not the shadchan, your parents, your neighbors, your Rabbi…you have to live in the marriage and they do not.
oomis, you missed his point. Your “opinion” on a halachic matter is of zero value. There is nothing to be embarrased about. Both notpashut and my own “opinion” on a halachic matter is also worthless.
Is Oomis following a valid psak? Yes. So there is nothing wrong with stating her opinion. We all do it in every thread. If we didn’t, it would just be a list of:
Source A
Rabbi A
Source B
Rabbi B
etc.
And yes, I value Oomis’ opinion because from what I’ve seen so far, she is smart, stable and has opinions that fall in line with halacha.
Joseph, it was hard but yes. I know plenty who werent able to though.
It helped that most of the time we hung out at our college, where there were plenty of people around.
I trust rabbonim implicitely with halachic issues, but with non-halachic issues, you should turn to them for advice but understand its ADVICE and not a psak.
My husband’s family’s Rav was not crazy about me and wasn’t very excited that we were getting married. Had my husband listed to him, we would not have gotten married and had the beautiful marriage we have to day. His Rav gave him advice, but my husband had to make a decision.
Rabbonim are NOT experts in everything. They are experts in TORAH. Would you ask them what antibiotics to take for an ear infection? I wouldnt, because that is not their area of expertise.
only a ben-torah who will not walk in the street without a hat and jacket is permitted to miss tefillah btzibur otherwise you must daven.
If you wouldnt leave the house without a hat and jacket, when would you be somewhere that you didnt have your hat and jacket?
I met my husband in College. Neither of us had planned to start dating that young (we met at 19 and started dating at 20, got engaged at 21 and married at 22. It worked out very well for us, but for others it may have been a disaster.
You are not meant to become best friends the guy u r dating. Dont forget that the guy u r dating is halachicly a “srange” man and Halachos of Yichud apply as do other halachos. Dont fool yourself into it, ask yourself are all of my dates chaneled to marriage, am I dating for fun or am I just not in the mood of commiting myself etc… The more seriously u take the dating the shorter the process should take u…
Mrs. Beautiful, just because you didn’t need the person you were dating to be really close with you, doesnt make it the only way. I needed my husband (or rather at that time my boyfriend) to be my best friend. I couldn’t marry someone that wasn’t- how could I marry someone but be closer to someone else? Dating him for that long didn’t mean that we transgressed any halacha – it just meant that we needed to be more careful. And yes, the longer we dated the harder it was. We also were restricted to when we could get married because we were both in college and neither of our families could support us.
Oomis, as usual I agree with you 🙂
Poshut, if two weeks in “encouraged” it will turn into pressure. There is no reason to put any “normal” time limit – people who are ready quickly will get engaged quickly, those who arent, won’t.
As for dating more people- maybe there people should date multiple people at a time until deciding one is really worth pursuing.
Tal, what I advise you tell your friends is that they should tell the shadchan that they need more dates to decide and if the guy has a problem with that, then she will move on to a different guy. Pressuring people is so terrible.
Joseph, thank you for the link! I missed a fun conversation!
it’s a matter as well of protocol, and convention
Protocol and convention change based on the minhag hamakom, correct?
you cant stand before the Ribbono Shel Olam in bluejeans, sandals, a t-shirt and baseball cap the same way you stand before him in a dark suit white shirt tie, and formal hat, especially as it conforms to the conventions of the local Yeshiva community {because of how YOU feel}, the Yiddin who understand the need to set ourselves apart from the nations, externally as well as internally, as is expressed throughout Tanach and Oral Law.
someone maybe isnt on that madrega, fine, but dont say that is not the madrega we should all aspire to.
I disagree that the clothing you wear makes for a better or worse davening. I understand that we try to dress better for kavod Hashem, but I don’t think the clothing makes the tefila any better. You can be dressed to the nines and still have zero kavana, or dressed in jeans and daven very well.
Now we should all be striving to get closer to Hashem in ALL aspects of our lives. But I disagree that the yeshivish dress code is the only way to go.
labochur – so why do people make such a big deal about a hat vs any other type of head covering?
Charlie Brown, why are you afraid of the way you think? Are you afraid of other’s disapproval?
While I can understand that its easier to admit certain things anonymously, you really shouldnt be saying anything that would bother you if someone figured out who you were.
And I agree with Will Hill…
Wait – do you need a hat or a head covering? There is a big difference in the two.
Charlie, I don’t say anything here that I don’t mean. I am not afraid of being ousted and I don’t have any problem giving bits of personal information. If people want to figure out who I am, go ahead.
Squeak thought he had me figure out but was wrong 🙂
Why is a hat required for davening? I’m really not well versed on this subject. Once, someone told me it was a matter of requiring a double layer (and thats why married men use their talis instead of a hat). If thats the case, couldn’t you just add a second kippah?
I don’t know first hand how its made, but the burger is over yad soledet bo and will cook the cheese once placed on the hamburger. The cheese melts (at least according to the commercials because it slightly drips down).
Why can’t you eat dairy after aged cheese? Are you talking about camembert or brie or others like that?
Do you include Katz in the Cohen category (Katz = Kohen Tzedek)?
Oomis, that story is amazing. Sometimes, its hard to remember on a day to day basis that Hashem controls everything. Thank you for sharing that. I am sorry you had to lose your parents in such a short span of time though.
poshut, why pressure people into the two week time frame? If you implement it as “normal” then people might feel pressured to decide within that regular time frame to make sure they are “normal.” My brother in law’s RY pressured him to break up with my sister after two months – can you imagine the pressure after 2 weeks? Either you would have many less marriages, or many more failed attempts because people were pressured to adhere to the norm. I honestly don’t think time is the problem with shidduchim.
KeepinEntertained, yes I am from a MO background and I realize 1.5 years is a long time for many people. My point in showing those three examples was to illustrate three happily married couples (I am the shortest married at 4.5 years) who needed different spans of time. There is no magic number and there should be no pressure to decide within a time frame. Each person needs to decide that time frame on their own.
I grew up in a community where everyone said good shabbos to each other. Granted, its a MO community so the men have no trouble saying good shabbos to women and vice versa. As more charedi people moved into the neighborhood, they were the odd ones out who would not say good shabbos. It can sometimes be rather embarrasing if you say GS to someone and they obviously don’t answer back.
Unfortunately, most of the neighborhood had changed to unfriendly and many people did not adopt the “minhag hamakom” to be courteous to their neighbors. Now, very few people say good shabbos to each other, except for people from one shul who still say good shabbos to everyone. Its a shame.
I almost went to the BY convention when I was in HS. My school isn’t a Bais Yaakov, but they participate anyway.
I think many people will agree with me that it makes sense NOWADAYS that some yeshivos do not allow children with a television in their home into their school. I have personally seen how a child with no television is adversely affected by the classmates who do have one. But that is because the stance on television is pretty well understood. The stance on internet has not yet reached that level of “black-and-white”ness, and therefore I feel it is not appropriate to be so aggressive about it yet.
Squeak, I think its time to pull out a bottle of your favorite schnapps. We agree. I have no problem with schools forbidding entrance to children with TVs in their household (so long as there is another orthodox school in the area that takes children with TVs – but I think out of town yeshivas don’t make restrictions like this because they understand that the kids will have nowhere to go).
I have a problem with parents who agree to a schools rules to send them, but then don’t follow them. You agreed that you wouldn’t have a TV, so why is there a “microwave” in your closet that you let the kids watch? Or that you yourself watch? It sends such a mixed message to kids, unless you approach it properly. My sister is probably moving out of Lakewood in the next few years (my bro-in-law’s job is moving), so my sister has to be extra vigilent in explaining to her kids that some things are just school rules and not halacha. This way, when they move to a place that is not as stringent as Lakewood on a community wide basis, the kids won’t think that everything everyone else is doing is assur, rather a different community rule. She handles it very well IMO.
The internet will never be “black and white” in either direction. IMHO, its a tool and there are ways to use it properly and improperly. Perhaps guidelines would be better than a blanket ban.
Joseph, in today’s day and age, it is especially important to do acts of kindness for non-Jews. We are no longer isolated in shtetls so we have so much more interaction with them. People generally can spot orthodox Jews a mile away. Any chesed is a huge kiddush hashem, but a lack of chesed is more often a huge chilul hashem. In cases like this, I would aim to be extra careful to make a kiddush hashem, rather than the other way around.
Poshut, I disagree with the two week deadline. There should be NO deadlines. People should take things as fast or as slow as they need to.
My stepsister dated her husband for 8 days, had an intense dating experience and got married 3 months later. She is happily married for 14 years now with 5 kids. I once asked her if she regretted dating so short and she said that looking back, she would have liked to date for longer, but is so happy in her life that she is happy things worked out as they did.
My sister was dating someone for about 2 months. He was ready to committ, but she told him she needed more time. His RY told him if she isn’t ready by now, she will never be and told him to break up with her. He dated some other people, found himself missing my sister more and more, and when she called him back two months later to see if he wanted to try again, he was ecstatic. He didn’t pressure her at all that time, and after another 2 months of dating, they got engaged. Some people just need to process.
I met my husband at 19 while in college. We started dating 9 months after we met. We dated for 1.5 years before getting engaged and got married 9 months later. To me, that was kind of quick. I don’t like to make any big decisions quickly. I can’t even committ to a couch for my living room (so its empty). I knew I loved my husband while we were dating, but I also know how serious marriage is and I wanted to make sure that everything could work out. We talked about a lot of things over the course of our relationship and there is no way I would have felt comfortable discussing certain things in the first FEW WEEKS of dating. Add to the fact that we were both still in college, we had to wait no matter what. Neither of us come from rich families who can support us.
Point being, everyone has to take things at their own pace and do what is right for them.
To answer the question: YES, the school has the right to make its own rules.
As to whether its the right thing to do? NO
Remember, just because you have the RIGHT to do something, doesnt make it the RIGHT thing to do..
Torahis1, I agree 100% with this statement.
My sister needs the internet because she is deaf – its her primary form of communication with most people (and much easier than using TTY/VCO). It opened a new world to her when she could communicate with others in the same way as everyone else was doing. She got a “heter” from the Lakewood rabbonim – she had to have a lock on the door to the room and a lock on the computer and not let the kids use the internet.
What I laugh about though, is that if the internet is so treif, there should be no kosher people on it that she needs to communicate with. Also, email is technically enough for her, but no one said “just email.” I personally think the rabbonim have banned things like internet is inconsistent. It would make sense if the rabbonim came out and said “If you need the internet for work, then you are allowed to use it for work and nothing else.” However, that would generally put places like YWN out because most of their clientele cannot visit. I really don’t understand the attitude of if you need the internet for work, its ok to use it for other things. The people I know who use internet “for work only” also surf plenty of other sites.
Joseph, in response to Oomis’s “But I could be wrong” you said That’s right!
– are you trying to imply that she is wrong? I would much more likely take a woman’s point of view on what young women are comfortable with over a man’s. And I cannot imagine most women talking to their rabbonim about what to do about the lack of attractiveness of their prospective husband. There are some things that are women only conversation.
As for consulting daas torah – that term is thrown around way too much sometimes. Its one thing to ask a Rav his opinion on the prospective mates haskafa or halacha or rabbonim – or even ask his opinion. But to assume that because he is a rabbi he knows whether or not you will have a happy marriage? Just because someone is perfect on paper, doesnt mean the person is right in real life. The Rabbi cannot answer that question for you – only YOU can say yes or no. And then YOU have to live with that decision (good or bad). Consulting people you trust for opinions is a great idea but
advice is only that – no Rabbi (or parent or friend or teacher) should tell you who or who not to marry (unless their reasons are halacha/hashkafa based). No Rabbi/Parent/Friend/Teacher will be living in your marriage for you – thats YOU.
As for the age – there is no magic age where everyone is ready to get married. I know some girls who are ready at 18 – I know some guys who are really never ready. I know girls who get married just to leave their parents house – one girl like that just got divorced and has 4 kids under 6.
I think its a shame that most Jewish kids never really get a chance to live on thier own. I moved out of my house at 19 because commuting to college was too hard (schedule wise). I loved living at home (had a great situation, I get along well with my family etc), but living on my own opened my eyes to who I am, rather than who I am with respect to my family. No, it did NOT mean I broke any halacha of any sort, just that you get more familiar with who you are. This isn’t for everyone (not everyone can withstand the pressures of the outside world if they arent supervised by their parents).
What amazes me most is that parents are so strict with their “adult” children, but then have no problem with them getting married. IMHO, if they arent mature enough to be trusted, they arent mature enough to get married. I don’t think this is something I will ever understand.
Curious, I love driving and hiking and seeing nature. Australia was one of my favorite trips ever because of the unbelievable nature that you can see.
OK anon! I just like spreading brussel sprout love. Its ok if you (or the kids) don’t like them.
My 11 month old son loves them.
I have never met a “left leaning Rabbi” that aren’t makpid about mixed swimming, tznius, etc. This is just right wing foolishness that doesnt understand the difference between halacha and how one practices halacha.
Anyway, why was my response about satmar deleted? I don’t think it was offensive at all. I’ll try rewording it, so here goes:
Satmar women do not learn tanach directly – they learn summaries in yiddish IIRC. So, they wouldn’t know a direct quote from Tanach.
Anyone here ever been to Banff/Calgary/Jasper/LakeLouise area?
My husband and I are looking at where to go in spring. Our choices are between Ireland, Panama, Calgary/Banff, Iceland or Seattle area.
syrian, my immediate family starts events on time – my extended family stars 30-60 minutes late on the non-yekke side and on time on the yekke side.
Wow, 2 hours. Sheesh! I could never handle that. I hate when you got a wedding and the chupah starts an hour late – 2 hours would drive me bonkers.
Anon, did you ever try brussel sprouts?