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MO generally means ascribing to the concept of Torah U’Mada.
GAW,
I absolutely would have supported Rosa Parks. She was also protesting an unjust law – how is the law protecting people’s property from vandalism unjust?
My comparisons are fair, even if abhorrant. But do you like the Mohammed example better? We can’t ask for protection and freedom and then deny it to others. H&M’s sign was a lot less problematic than a swastika, but no one has the right to vandelize other people. Unless you think PETA is correct when they do it?
There is absolute right and wrong. However, I don’t think tznius is in ANY way (especially a sign posted high up, so high that they needed to stand on a vending machine to even reach it) the type of problem that these men were making it out to be.
I tested out walking looking down today – the only time I needed to look up was when my coworker called out to me as we passed in the subway and when I needed to cross city streets. Since these signs are high up, they are not in the line of sight of people, unless people are looking. We should be training men to walk looking down and then these signs wouldn’t be an issue. I didn’t see any advertisements while doing this experiment and I walked on a few city blocks and went into the subway. I also have no idea what people were wearing.
Its kind of like when people throw dirty diapers. Its hard to take their cause seriously. Can you imagine R’ Elyashiv doing this? I doubt it.
GAW, them feeling justified doesn’t make it right. In fact, all something like that causes in anti-muslim sentiment.
And they posted on the sign that pictures of “women” were problematic, not “scantily-clad” women, right?
This just seems to me to be a part of the ever growing radicalism on Orthodox Jewry that has very little to do with Torah. A true Torah Jew would have been so absorped in saying Tehillim while he was walking that he wouldn’t have noticed the sign 🙂
Eclipse,
I didn’t mean to insult you. I just meant that venting here (and even getting advice) is very limited.
All things being equal, women get to keep all their body parts after birth 🙂
Eclipse,
Please find a support system outside of the internet. You need people who can be there for you in your life.
Also, google imamother – its a frum woman’s website and there are (unfortunately) plenty of women on there who can help you. Its much less moderated then here and you can send private messages so you can probably get even better advice.
Just sending some hugs.
Popa,
There is a difference between outlawing something that directly affects us vs something that has the possibility to affect us.
We have to actively do bris mila. We aren’t actively required to look at signs. Since there are so many women dressed inappropriately on the street, men should be walking by looking down at the ground wtih the occasional glance forward to make sure the path is safe. He has no reason to look above doorways at signs.
Well, the next time anti-semites spray paint swastikas on a shul, I should have no sympathy right?
I don’t expect non-Jews to respect our sensibilities. Why should I? Do you respect Christian rights? Would you support a Christian who vandalized something that they felt was inappropriate?
I saw those signs and they weren’t terrible at all. Women walk through Boro Park in much less. I’ve seen them personally.
Its that attitude that allows men to throw acid on a woman dressed inappropriately.
I don’t understand how anyone can support this. We live in a country that grants us tremendous freedoms with the stipulation that we grant others those same freedoms.
I still don’t understand how someone can be following their code of conduct (7 mitzvos bnei noach) and we have the right to say “Too bad. I don’t like what you are doing.” Hashem said that’s enough for them!
Just by being MO, I’m naturally offensive 🙂
If H&M did not break any of their prohibitions, why would Torah allow a Jew to vandalize their property? We can’t expect non-Jews to live by OUR ideals.
I don’t follow this logic.
Men who can’t walk in the street without a problem should not be on the street. That billboard is not the most offensive thing on the streets.
Can someone please tell me which of the 7 mitzvos bnei noach H&M violated by posting that sign?
If there is no violation, how can we punish them by defacing their property?
DY,
The schools near me cost around $15,000 or more per kid.
But lets use Lakewood values – around $5,000. Average family size is what, 8? That’s $40,000 in tuition, after tax. You are probably in the 25% tax bracket at that point so $53,000 salary. Are you telling me in Lakewood the average 2nd salary is $53,000? I find that doubtful.
As to incremental costs – that’s true if you are talking about 1 child. If a family can afford to put 3 kids in the local Yeshiva, but have 6 kids or they have a 7th, the family cannot pay more for the 7th child at all. At a certain point, there needs to be an additional class to host the increasing population.
Yes, I believe many parents have the ability to homeschool their kids. I think most don’t want to, so they choose to live off of tzedaka instead.
DY,
I have no issue with the parents giving willingly, provided the parents are taking care of their own responsibilities (so they shouldn’t be asking for a scholarship for other kids in Yeshiva to pay for their children sitting and learning.
Mod-80,
This isn’t about disparaging talmidei chachomim, because no true talmid chachom would EVER demand a down payment. In fact, most talmidei chachomim would probably reject the offer of a large sum of money for a down payment and ask for the money instead so they could extend their time learning! [OK, slightly a true scotsman argument LOL]
But I think its about establishing a system of dependancy. So you help your kids in Kollel for a few years. They get used to taking. Then they ask for a bit more (help with some tuition) or with a down payment. This generation is becoming very dependant on the (ever decreasing) wealth of the previous generations.
My company is generally relaxed. If I come a bit late, I stay late.
Today I came late because of an accident at the exit of the Lincoln Tunnel. I’ll make up the time next week.
I wanted to have a small wedding in a shul in Venice but I was turned down.
Popa, what about parents who can’t afford either?
In Monsey, they do very frequent garbage pickup around Pesach time.
Is there a large Jewish population in your area? If not, it may be too expensive for your town to arrange.
Is the garbage dump open for drop-off?
The best thing to do is call the sanitation department and the mayors office.
PBA,
The difference with graduate students is that they are working towards a way to be self sufficient. Kollel doesn’t get you closer to that, so after Kollel you still have years of struggling.
Flyer, Understand etc….many young families in Lakewood are being supported by taxpayers. Maybe not you (neither specified), but that’s still a form of support. Lakewood in general is a town that takes in money from others.
GAW,
Living in a free country doesn’t mean they have the right to deface property of others. Imagine if someone tampered with your mezuzah!
The tarp is a better idea than the defacement, but there are better ways to go about removing the sign without causing such a chillul hashem.
So no one would have a problem is an atheist spray painted over an add for a frum organization? It’s their belief that we are spreading lies.
Part of living in a wonderful country like the USA is that we are given freedoms. If we don’t respect the freedom of others, others will not care if our freedoms get restricted.
Ofcourse,
You are being placed in a really tough situation. I am sorry for you and your friends.
Likely with the economy, your savings/portfolio has dipped so its even harder for you to part with money.
Its time to cut the cord though. Obviously, your generous nature has gotten to the point of being abused. Now is the time for tough love.
Creating a system of self dependency snowballs…
DY,
If you have 5 children in a school that costs $15,000 that’s $75,000 in AFTER TAX money. Assuming your spouse works, you are in the 28%+ tax bracket, that means you need to earn over $100,000 to pay just for Yeshiva. If you homeschool, chances are you will come out WAY ahead unless you are a high paid lawyer, businessman or doctor.
My husband and I have actually considered homeschooling because Yeshiva is so expensive.
My husband is also in danger of being laid off at the moment (his company announced layoffs but not specifics yet) and we have an austerity budget. It includes rice and beans and beans and rice for most meals.
Is it ideal to have to eat that way? No. But you can’t claim that its so expensive to be frum. Its very expensive to be frum and maintain an upper middle class lifestyle.
Aries,
I think its unfair to expect someone younger to move, solely because another seat is someway less desirable unless there is a reason the woman needed the seat. Estherhamalka has said that the seat was just as comfortable.
Did Estherhamalka react correctly? Eh, it was juvenile. But she shouldn’t have been placed in that situation in the first place.
Of course I would give up my seat to an elderly woman who needed it (even while pregnant). I did that the other day on the bus because an elderly man came on and the front seats were full. I was in a lot of pain from overexertion at my job and having painful braxton hicks contractions but he needed the seat more than me.
But if the seat next to me was available? He would have sat down on that one.
Part of the problem is that you lump all those things with being observant, but they aren’t really.
A Yeshiva education is a luxury. Homeschooling is very cheap and you can hire someone for a few hours a week to supplement what you can’t.
With rare exception, you don’t NEED meat and chicken. You can have a small piece l’kavod shabbos and that’s it.
You can live further out from the Jewish community as long as its walkable. Its not convenient and hard to live outside an eruv, but its doable.
The problem is frum Jews today want it all and haven’t figured out how they are going to pay for it. Instead they just rely on the rich Jews to cover the balance.
There are other (legal) ways to get the ad removed.
I’m wondering how “bad” the ad is. I’ve seen plenty of improperly dressed women in places like BP, so its not like this ad is the only offensive thing out there.
brotherofurs,
When you are young and single, living at home, there is little need to carry.
But if you move out on your own, or get married and have kids, its a lot harder not to use the eruv.
If your family Rav says mutar, there is no need to assur the eruv for you. You can choose not to carry normally within the eruv without great need (which in your stage is rare).
But its a lot harder to go back.
brotherofurs,
Assuming your father’s Rav allows the eruv, I recommend not discounting the eruv, even if you choose not to use it. There may be a time in your life where you want to use it and if you denounce it, you won’t be able to.
I found this as a quote from the Ben Ish Hai:
anon1mous,
do you have a source that says a woman should not breastfeed in public?
Lets review a few things about breastfeeding:
1) Many babies will NOT take bottles
2) If the baby will take a bottle, a woman has to pump instead of the feeding. If that’s the case, she needs a sanitary location to pump (including access to an outlet), a sanitary place to wash pump parts and bottles and to store any leftover milk.
3) If the mother has trouble pumping (many women cannot pump adequately to feed their child) they would have to supplement with formula. Formula is full of garbage ingredients and should be avoided.
4) Some children (especially during growth spurts) nurse very frequently. As in, every 30 minutes some times. Should women who have children like this be chained to their homes?
I certainly would rather my child be exposed to a woman discreetly nursing a baby than what many women wear on the street. I’ve seen inappropriately dressed women in every Jewish enclave I’ve ever visited (Boro Park, New Square etc) so you can’t even claim a haven there. If you want to remove all outside “negative” influences, then keep your children locked up at home. Stop trying to force your “sensitivities” on others.
It seems like whenever people talk about “sensitivities” its all about things to restrict women. Maybe that’s just my perception.
As to leaving kids at home – my kids slept much better in their wraps/carriers than they ever did in their cribs. They were snuggled up with me most of the day while I was out and about. Since when does having a child mean being locked into your home????
edited
OK Popa 🙂
Popa,
You are not alone in your discomfort. In fact, a large portion of American society agrees with your – women should nurse in private. I think this message is obscene coming from a society that has little problem with bikinis.
Breastfeeding is normal and natural. Unless you believe that women should stay home (and you can find halachic sources for this, but then be consistent and say that men should be out of Kollel to support their wives so the women don’t have to go out in public much), then women need to breastfeed in public.
So long as women are covered, I don’t understand the objection. I truly don’t. I can nurse and no one even realizes it (I did this on line at disney world – my son was in my Ergo carrier and I wore a shirt that would cover me on the sides while he was nursing).
So is your problem only if someone notices it?
I’m not sure the issue – is it that you now have your coworkers contact information?
Truth be told, I’m 28. I didn’t claim that 90% of all MO women are married by 23. I said 90% of my graduating class.
There is a trend for RW MO kids who go to RWMO/Charedi-lite institutions in Israel to go RW/Yeshivish. But IME, the older the Yeshivish oriented women get and remain unmarried, the more likely they are to become MO and move to the UWS. My sister is in her early 30s and all the girls from her HS BY class who are still single live on the UWS and are no longer Yeshivish. I think this has to do with the fact that the older a non-married Yeshivish girl gets, the more educated/worldly she gets, whereas a non-married Yeshivish boy stays in Yeshiva. So she starts relating more and more towards the MO crowd whereas he is just likely to marry someone much younger, much to the disdain of AZ.
Again, just my experience.
I like the cards. My cousins in Israel sent one to us and it created a nice, warm feeling. I really appreciated knowing that I am now involved in an additional mitzvah, rather than accepting junk food I don’t want.
Yes GAW. That sums it up well.
But apparently you are wrong about people believing in the infallibility of chazal.
the shidduch situation is worse in the MO community? I’ve never heard that before. In my MO hs, we had a senior kallah and another girl married by November. The rest were in seminary (mostly).
By 23, I would estimate about 90% of my class was married. There are a few stragglers of course…
I think the difference is that often, MO kids choose to get married later and are not part of the “shidduch” crisis. I also know that sometimes, formerly RW people become MO as they stay single. So they move from pot to pot.
I enjoyed my 9 month engagement. I spend plenty of time with my husband (then fiance). I don’t understand the point of limited contact.
If you are worried about inappropriate conduct within the engagement time period, the better questions is why the engaged couple is engaging in yichud to begin with.
Doesn’t tzedaka for the rich have other stipulations? I thought it was only while his situation wasn’t known?
DH,
Its how I’ve been taught. It may be hard for me to be explicit on YWN about it, but basically, I don’t believe in the infallibility of chazal. I don’t believe that they never made any mistakes.
For example, I don’t believe the sun goes “behind” the rakiah at night. But that’s irrelevant to following halacha.
Not that it changes halacha. I also believe in the halachic process – I think you need a living process in order to make a viable way to follow Torah Judaism. Contemporary rabbonim pasken based on historical context and extrapolate to the contempary needs of the people. There is a reason Torah lo bashamayim he is so important.
I have never been taught that everything chazal and the great leaders of the past said is 100% true. Even in my RW elementary school.
I close my eyes.
DH, its easy for me to believe because I believe in the premise of G-d. I also believe that not every meforash is 100% correct and there is information we don’t understand. And I have emunah.
mw13, there are plenty of questions which don’t have excellent answers or answers that truly go beyond a reasonable doubt.
DH,
I respect your opinion, but my experience with some who went OTD or are Orthoprax leads me to beleive otherwise. There are some unanswerable questions, some things that look like paradoxes and some things that seem historically inaccurate. It does take emunah.
Health,
I’m sorry you don’t see the connection between OTD and Orthoprax. Most Orthoprax people that I know don’t go OTD because they are married and have children and they don’t think sacrificing their family is worth it, even if they don’t believe. They are OTD but they just don’t look it.
In addition, there is a myth that in order to go OTD you have to be screwed up in some way (see earlier posts on this thread). There is a growing trend for people to go OTD/Orthoprax because of belief, not because of any major issues in their life.
mw13, Judaism doesn’t claim to have all the answers in current form. They are all hidden within Torah. But to say that we know all the answers from Judaism is wrong.
DH, I disagree with you. All you have to do is look at pshat in Nechemia to know our legacy is not cut and dried. But that’s really besides the point.
There is a certain amount of emunah needed to believe in Judaism.
Neglecting that means you think there really is no bechira – if there weren’t a seemingly legitimate alternative, there would be no real bechira.
guy-ocho, since when? I’m a mechanical engineer and I’ve never heard plumbers referred to as mechanical engineers.
when you say licensed mechanical engineer, are you talking about obtaining your PE license? That’s very different from being a plumber.
2morecents,
I both agree and disagree with what you are saying.
I vehemently disagree if the wife is giving up rights in her ketubah (like support) for her learning husband who isn’t learning.
Willie Randolph
Derech Hamelech,
No, I don’t have a Rishon to back me up. But I have spoken to quite a few Orthoprax people who have nothing to gain and only to lose from not believing. Most of them are married with a few kids and would not break up their family for their disbelief. They don’t think anything in the outside world is worth giving up their family, even if it means being orthodox in practice without belief (why would they give up their family for a cheeseburger?).
I quickly flipped through the link you posted. Its a nice kuzari-like explanations but there are logical ways around that.
The Orthoprax people I know are VERY learned. They probably know more Torah than most people. They kept studying and learning and looking to believe and couldn’t find it. Without any motivation to not believe.
So maybe Rambam was talking about in general. But there are always exceptions to the rule.
The number of OTD young adults (late teens, early 20s) who go OTD because they don’t believe is on the rise. You no longer have to be from a dysfunctional family, on drugs or anything like that.
At a certain point, you can’t prove Torah. There is emunah involved.
If you don’t believe me, just do a search about the “Orthoprax” movement (Orthodox in practice, not in philosophy). Its growing in all branches of Judaism.
For some reason, Orthodox Judaism likes to perpetuate this stereotype that to go OTD you must be crazy or on drugs.
How about planting a tree? It will give you permanent “roots” in Israel. Perhaps you can even do the planting together.