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As I general rule, if someone tells me they are frum, I believe them. Unless they are blantantly disregarding halacha in all aspects of their lives.
Its not for me to judge if someone is truly observant or not. Plenty of people look the part and don’t act the part.
laguy, my high school (Bruriah) did that. We had a mix of limudei kodesh and chol throughout the day.
The dean of the school also pitched in to teach Calculus (Rabbi Teitz). And it was a great way for us to interact with him.
bozo, engineering is generally a safe bet.
Hereorthere, I can’t speak for Oomis so I won’t attempt to. But I don’t think that’s what she meant.
Hereorthere, everyone is saying “men have taavos” and I’m explaining women have them too. I didn’t say that its OK to dress in an untzniusdig (there you go Oomis!) way, but the same way people are trying to get women to understand men struggle, women struggle too…
Where did I say its ok to dress in a way that isn’t consistent with what your Rav allows? All I said was there is a debate within halacha.
And we don’t call someone who speaks lashon hara “not frum.”
A friend gave me this recipe and she said its amazing. I’m trying it tonight:
White Chocolate Cheesecake
Crust:
5 oz graham crackers OR Nilla Wafers
1/2 cup roasted hazelnuts (optional)
1/4 c unsalted butter
1/2 teaspoon cinnamon
Filling:
12 oz white chocolate chopped in small pieces
1/2 c heavy cream
3 8 oz packages cream cheese
1/4 c sugar
4 eggs
1 tablespoon vanilla
Topping:
1 3/4 c sour cream
1/3 c sugar
1 teaspoon vanilla
Preheat oven to 350
Grease a 9″ springform. Melt butter. Crush crumbs, mix with butter and cinnamon, press into springform. Bake for 5-7 minutes. Cool pan on a wire rack.
Lower oven temp to 300
Melt the white chocolate and cream together until smooth. Set aside to cool slightly.
Beat cream cheese and sugar until smooth. Add eggs one at a time. Slowly beat in white chocolate mixture and vanilla. Pour into the crust and bake for 45-55 minutes, being careful not to brown the top.
Increase oven to 400.
Prepare topping by mixing sour cream, sugar, and vanilla in a bowl. Pour over the cheesecake and bake for only 5-7 minutes more. Turn off the oven and let the cake sit inside for 1 more hour. Decorate with white chocolate curls if desired, and dust lightly with cocoa powder.
Mazal, I always was taught that more tragic things happen in the summer because of the three weeks and Tisha Bav. The beis hamikdash must have been destroyed for tznius issues huh?
One reason I don’t like when this topic comes up is becuase people are so vocal against tznius, but then don’t say a thing when it comes to business ethics. Or lashon hara. Or many other mitzvos.
If kol kavodah bas melech penima was so important, why would women go out into the workforce? If it were really paramount and you wanted to protect the sanctity and tznius of a woman, making sure she was able to stay at home and raise her children would be top on the list. That certainly doesn’t happen in the yeshiva world where women are often the breadwinners.
I don’t claim to understand mens taavos, but from conversations I have had with men about this topic this is what they told me:
No matter where you walk, there is always someone dressed really inappropriately (Ie shorts, tank top etc) so a Jewish woman with a skirt at her knee is NOT going to attract their attention, unless they are looking.
Now the mitzvah of tznius is a woman’s mitzvah. The side effect is that it helps men, but its not the prime reason. For example: if I have an infection and don’t feel well, I take antibiotics to clear the infection. The side effect is that I feel better, but its NOT the reason I took the antibiotics. I took it to clear the infection.
On a Jewish woman’s website, someone had asked why people wear skirts at or above their knees. The main answers were:
1) My rav allows skirts at the knee/mid knee
2) I gained some weight and my skirts don’t fit me 100% properly
3) Its really hard to find skirts that cover 100%
4) I know its wrong, but I struggle with it
So right, that is true. Many poskim hold that way. But don’t expect people who DON’T hold that way to conform.
So right, Rav Falk may hold that way but not all rabbonim do.
Yes, Shok is erva. But there are large debates on what shok is and exactly where the line is. Most poskim say the knee. Most, not all.
4″, wearing stockins, a whole different ball game.
A woman’s mitzvah has nothing to do with men. Helping men is a side affect, not the cause. I doubt the inch on the knee is why a man is having taavos. Usually, it has to be something more extreme.
Men have their own mitzvos to worry about. Women have theirs.
What if a woman is following her halachic psak and a man has taavos anyway? What if her psak allows a skirt mid knee?
Thank you 🙂
If you edit my post, please note that it has been edited.
As to the halacha, shok is NOT clearly defined and people showing parts of their knees may have Rabbinic tradition backing them up. I say may because not all communities hold by this.
As to comparing tznius with murder – tznius is between a person and Hashem. Murder is between a person and another person. I would compare murder more closely with tax evasion than tznius.
We should really question why women are getting close enough to notice the difference between the few inches on the knees.
EDITED
If you are female, you should understand that each person struggles with halacha differently.
EDITED
Squeak, I could live with that.
But I can’t imagine running a school with that little money.
Do you charge extra for extracurriculars then? Like your child wants to take an extra AP class – you pay extra and those who don’t want it or can’t afford it can’t take it?
GAW – no one (across the board) was really interested. Certainly not enough people to establish an entire school.
Squeak, according to my cousin, 30% of families are on scholarship. You would have to make it so that 90% could afford the school in order for it to really work.
FWIW, I think homeschooling (with a possible Talmud Torah setting) might be the best answer.
GAW, the choice was to start a Teaneck school for $7-8000 per student. That’s half of the cost of most Teaneck schools.
Oh it wasn’t me who lacked interest. I would definitely consider a school where the education was good but not stellar.
My only problem is that I went to a decent elementary school. I was bored stiff. I was always ahead of what the class was doing and I would do other things in class (like reading books under my desk). I don’t want my kids trapped that way. It gave me very lazy habits in life – I put so little effort in because I learnt it didn’t really matter. It helped promote my lazy side which I really struggle with to this day.
Squeak, what you are advocating means only the rich can either have kids or send their kids to yeshiva.
GAW, a couple of years ago, a group got together to talk about that and gauge interest. It never moved forward because people didn’t want to send their kids to an inferior school. [tuition was going to be around $7-8,000 per child, a bargain in NNJ]
Who is he? Joseph?
EJ, I have no problem with K-12. I think NNJ Kids is just taking the same money realistically and spreading it around. The people who are willing to donate ALREADY DO. If my husband wasn’t against homeschooling, I would totally get on board. (Although, I’m not 100% sure K-12 is certified in NJ?)
I don’t know about the school in LA – what are they doing?
Wolf, maybe. But you think its driving the cost up 100%? So tuition without that would be clsoer to $10,000? I find that a little hard to believe, but I could be wrong.
EJ my point about public school was that Yeshivas are not necessarily spending excessively. Is there waste? I am sure of it. But not in the $10,000 range per student.
Yes our communities have started spending excessively. Tuition is NOT mandatory – neither is buying fancy sheitels and clothing, owning a new car etc etc etc. You can homeschool your kids. Or send them to a cheaper school. There ARE places out there if you want to find it. I’m not sure what “righteous quid pro quos” I’m spewing. If each family could come up with a few thousand more a year, wouldn’t that help the school? Tuition would be lowered because less people would be on scholarship. According to my cousin 40-50% of the kids in school are on scholarship (roughly 30% of the families). The more EACH FAMILY can contribute, the better economic health of the school. I don’t think its unfair for me to say “I’m cutting out XYZ luxuries to avoid a scholarship” and expect others to do as well.
Squeak, Lakewood schools have very minimal general studies education (at least in boy schools). Girls schools also have a more balanced general studies curriculum but lack facilities, labs and other resources.
When I was in school, there was no air-conditioning. Is that standard nowadays?
So we’ve established that community wide tuition is a problem. Many families cannot afford it.
So, how do we establish a system where families can afford it? Money has to come from somewhere.
Squeak, you think schools in Lakewood charging $5,000 a child is a “rich man’s school”?
If there were a better option for me, that didn’t require busing my 3 year old 45 minutes away then I would look into it. I haven’t seen that.
My kids won’t be attending Frisch (HS) because I can’t afford $25,000 a year.
EJ, maybe the question should be “What is a Yeshiva education worth to you?” I understand your point, and I stress out about paying for tuition even though my family tells me not to. I am NOT rolling in dough. Of course families are more important than Yeshiva – we need good, solid stable families. Would you be willing to send your children to a Lakewood type school if it were 1/3 of the price and affordable?
and by the way, I think if every family really scrimped it could come out closer to $8-10,000 a year for an average family.
I don’t have cleaning help. Most of my friends do. That’s a few thousand right there. Yes, my house is not as clean, but I am saving up for tuition costs. My son is starting a year from September.
EJ, public schools are funded around $18-19,000 per child. Is $15,000 too much? Sure public schools have lots of extracurricular activities but Yeshivas have a dual curriculum.
Yes its too much of our take home pay. Schools can’t cut back THAT much.
People have a right to spend their money however they want. If you value a yeshiva education, you will cut back on all necessary expenses unless someone else is willing to foot the bill.
I also think a problem is that tuition has built in scholarship. Lets say cost per student is really $12,000/child but the school knows that at that price point, 20% of the student body will ask for scholarships. So they raise the price to $15,000/child and now 23% ask for scholarships. The school has still come out ahead! If you have 4 kids, that $3,000/child is a large factor.
BTW I think both schools AND parents need to learn to live with less.
BP Totty, I must have missed that. Don’t worry, I rarely take things too personal. I recognize that all schools have DIFFERENT strengths and weaknesses and we choose according to what is best for our children and families overall.
EJ, we are sort of in the same boat. And its tough. BUT! If people would actively try to reduce their expenses, its amazing what can be cut. Meat and chicken most nights of the week? Cut out a lot of that and switch to beans for your protein – you’ll save a fortune. Cut out cleaning help? A few thousand a year. Turn off and unplug things when not in use – a few hundred a year. These “pennies” add up. I follow a blog called pennilessparenting about a woman in Israel with two little kids and how she lives below the poverty line debt free. Its amazing what she can do to save money. Sure its a lot harder working full time and not taking shortcuts, but we have to decide – is a Yeshiva education worth it to you? There are barebones schools out there for a lot less if you want to bus your kids. I don’t want to do that to them, so I pay the price.
Dr. P – I’m not so sure that would work well. Perhaps though, if parents thought of scholarships as a loan instead of a smaller bill that would work. Repayment would start when your kids are out of high school. People would pay what they could afford every month once their kids are done until their bill was paid. This would also allow the schools to know that some extra money is coming in, even if it turns out to be $50/month or something. Perhaps it should even be tied into inheritence – if you have $100,000 to leave to your kids and owe $50,000 to the school, upon your death that should be paid first, followed by splitting it amongst your kids.
What school are you refrencing?
YNJ is slightly cheaper at $12,000 but there are personal reasons I wouldn’t send my child there.
LOL @ squeak
Squeak, for one, they person who gets a good education is less likely to need to rely on others (wether scholarships, medical assitance, food stamps, section 8, gmachs etc).
And technically, I could bus my kids to Staten Island to recieve a decent education (far better than schools in Lakewood IMHO) and dave about 50% of tuition costs. I just don’t want to bus my kids.
A person with little secular education has less choices. In order to command the type of salary to put 9 kids through school, you need a strong background and a good job. The percentage of those in the yeshivish community is smaller than in MO circles. I would say they are probably relying on breaks to come out to zero.
Volvie, are you Jewish Philosopher?
Actually, I’ve often found that in school kids ridiculed lashon hara hours and didn’t gain a thing from them other than to choose “4-5 am” so they would technically be LH free.
Mother’s Day may remind people who aren’t so makpid on Kibbud Am that its important to respect your parents. It may be a stepping stone. Don’t be so quick to dismiss it. If nothing else, it means a person is striving for Kibbud Am once a year, rather than never right?
Volvie, the point is that the Torah CLEARLY does not mind stressing one aspect of Judaism on a particular day. Its a message that its great to work on one special mitzvah on a specific day so long as you are not transgressing another one.
Schools have “lashon hara free” hours all the time for their students – a time where they try extra hard to be lashon hara free. Now, there is no hour mandated by the Torah right? So is that the same as mother’s day?
The Torah gives us 354 days of teshuva, not *just* Yom Kippur.
…and the Torah obviously has no problem focusing on a particular aspect of Judaism for one day a year! Kibbud Am IS Jewish.
For people with degrees: Check on coned.com for career postings.
They aren’t fast about getting back to people, but if you get a job here, its pretty stable.
As a warning, they don’t pay as much as other industry jobs.
There is also a website for consulting work, I have to go dig it up.
Volvie that’s precisely the point! No one limits teshuva to just Yom Kippur, but people *in general* focus more about teshuva on Yom Kippur than a random tuesday.
Same thing with mother’s day – you can honor your mother all year long and just focus a little better on Mother’s day. It takes nothing away from the rest of the year.
The differnence between losing your stock value as oppposed to losing your home value is this: If your stock goes to nil, its a paper loss. If your home goes the same way and gets forclosed your’re out on the sidwalk or forced to move in with your kids (not sure which I would dread more, if C’V I ever came to that).
That’s false. I know plenty of people under water (meaning their mortgage is higher than their house value). All it means is that if you can’t afford your house payment you may be foreclosed. As long as you can afford that, you won’t be kicked out.
If your stock goes to zero, you lost out on money. Its not a paper loss. You put money INTO the stocks, the same way you put money into your house.
If I have equity, I should tap into before making someone else pay. That goes for schooling and any other bills that are MY responsibility.
As to the commute – its 90 minutes PLUS travel within NYC. I don’t work right near port authority. Sure I knew about tuition and COLA in NNJ when I moved – I’m just pointing out the struggle is similiar across the board.
Lets say we cap spending. Certain costs are NOT fixed. And certain costs rise much faster than the rate of salary increases (that’s really what’s been happening in the last 10 years). Just to give an example: when my parents bought a house, a middle class house cost 1 year of my fathers’s salary (they bought in Monsey, but in Teaneck houses were comparable in price). In Teaneck now, it costs 4 years worth of both me and my husband’s salaries. Costs have risen greatly, but salaries have not kept up. That’s one of the big problems facing schools today.
As to the secular education: the kids coming out of the cheaper schools (like the ones in Lakewood that have very limited limudei chol) are not being properly prepared for college. They will have a much harder time getting in and making it through a program. They will have worse job prospects and worse salaries (as a general rule), making it hard for the next generation.
So yes, I would rather pay more and have my child well educated. Its still expensive though.
And we are back to…why do you limit teshuva to Yom Kippur? You are missing out on repentance 353 other days.
Unless Volvie uses a secular calendar 🙂
It teaches your kids that there are different piskei halacha out there. If its chalav stam, in an unideal situation (according to that Rav) its permissible.
I was always told that if someone is competent in halacha, I am allowed to trust them, even if I would do soemthing different (like checking for bugs). Perhaps this is somewhat like the same principle.
puppydog, less people can afford tuition now. They need more scholarships and need people to pay more.
If they up your tuition by 15% and settle on a 10% increase, you’ll be happier than if they said 10% increase no questions.
Costs have gone up somewhat but there are less people to pay for it.
When someone produces organic chalav yisroel milk, then we’ll talk.
Goody, there are some things that are mutually exclusive.
For example, R’ Hillel said in the gemara that Moshiach already came and will not be coming in the future(Sanhedrin 98b). But we don’t believe that. Its one of the 13 ikkrei emunah that Moshiach is coming in the future.
Either Moshiach came already and is done or he is coming in the future. How do you reconsile that?
And messing with the equity in your house is nuts, plain and simple. Its the untouchable. Its what most folks retire on, and seeing as how life expectancy is getting longer and longer, that money will need to be there for you.
So what you are saying is that you are putting your retirement over the value of a Jewish education. Because SOMEONE has to pay for it. Is there waste? Sure. But if tuition is being charged at $5,000 a student, you can bet the waste may be closer to $500/student than $4,000/student. Why should you be able to save for retirement while others are footing your tuition bill? Please explain how the equity in your home is different from having lots of stocks for retirement.
BP, so I should pick up and move to Lakewood? So for starters, my 1 hour commute (each way) would turn into a 2-2.5 hour commute (yes, I’ve done that when visiting my sister). So instead of 2 hours commuting, I am now at 4.5. I wake up at 5 am right now, so I would have to wake up at 4 am. Now I get home at 6 pm, I wouldn’t get home until 7:30 pm. My husband would also be home later. So not only did I add time to my day, I added more commuting costs (its like $35/round trip from Lakewood, from teaneck its $8.50) and I added 2.5 hours and I now have to pay for later childcare. How many places do you know that are open 6 am to 7:30 pm?
OK so my mortgage is cheaper. Assume an interest rate of 5%, thats $500/month per $100,000 savings (roughly). Houses in my sisters area are around $300,000 which is $200,000 less than Teaneck (modest house). So I save $1,000, but need to add in an extra $27/day in commuting expenses for me, 1.5 hours of childcare (assume $15 for the extra time) and extra gas and tolls for my husband to drive. If you assume 21 business days a month, that’s $1,000 right there.
So my savings would be only for tuition and some property taxes. Because I wouldn’t be seeing my kids at all. For that, I might as well bus my children to Staten Island.
What’s the point? Moving is not always the solution.
Want to take away the benefit of teachers getting free tuition? They will demand more money. After all, they aren’t stupid – they know its the best reason to be a teacher in a Jewish school. So tuition costs still go up to cover the increase in teachers salaries.
Capping tuition costs does nothing because it doesn’t guarantee paying the bills. If no one in Lakewood is paying $45,000 for 9 kids (according to my sister tuition waws $5,000 a year per child so I’m using that), then either the school doesn’t really cost $5,000 a child so base tuitions builds lots of scholarships in OR someone is privately footing the bill. Money doesn’t grow on trees.
BPTotty, if you bought your home for $200k and its now worth $400k, that’s $200k in equity sitting there. If you have “spare” $200k shouldn’t you give SOME to tuition? Your house is an INVESTMENT. It is comparable to stocks in terms of equity.
Think of it this way:
Family A has a house that has $200k in equity but doesn’t use it. They have 3 kids and instead of paying $30,000 a year for tuition pays $15,000. Family B rents instead of buying because they can’t afford tuition if they buy and pay $30,000 in tuition. School has to fundraise $15,000/year for family A. When all kids are out of school, Family A ends up with a nice nest egg because someone else donated money to the school. Family B has nothing because they paid full tuition.
My cousin never said they asked people to bankrupt themselves. The committee has limited scholarships to give out and if someone has an investment to tap into, they should. They aren’t asking people to mortgage up ot the hilt, but to contribute fairly.
Schools are not looking to make profits, they are looking to pay their bills. If you can’t pay your portion, it has to come from somewhere.
I’m not sure what your knowledge of Northern NJ is. I live in Teaneck – in a middle class neighborhood (with some rich people). Clothing is much more simple than in Brooklyn or Lakewood (for example, many boys wear nice pants and a button down shirt for Shabbos instead of a full suit – so savings right there. Women rarely wear suits.) Cars are more of a necessity in Teaneck than in Brooklyn, but most people don’t drive fancy cars. People don’t walk around dripping in diamonds. Few people I know do Winter and Summer vacations and don’t go away for Pesach.
Cost of living is higher here sure. But most people I know living in Brooklyn live on a much higher reference than those in Teaneck. Especially when it comes to clothing.
As to the number of children – I’m not commenting on how many children to have or not. I’m just saying that a family in Teaneck with 3 kids in school has a $45,000 obligation for tuition. A family in Lakewood with 9 children ALSO has a $45,000 tuition obligation.
And tuition IS optional. You can homeschool your kids or you can hire a rebbe for a talmud torah type environment. Most things in life are optional, with the exception of basic shelter, basic clothing and food.
Squeak, we agree!
Although I don’t feel that its really the communal obligation – that’s really the parents obligation, unless the parents are unable to. And unable to doesn’t mean not wanting to send to a lower quality school or not wanting to cut down on the car you drive. It means an orphan, a widow without means etc.
BPTotty, most schools tell you that you can’t put ANY money into savings if you want a scholarship. Does your mortgage company allow you to forgo paying your mortgage so you can sock some money away?
And yes, they did tell some people to draw money from their home. If someone has a house that they paid little for and has a lot of equity in it, why should someone else foot their tuition bill? That’s like saying “I have a bunch of stocks but I don’t want to sell them. Can I get a scholarship?”
You have to understand – whatever reduction you want in tuition has to come from somewhere. Money does NOT grow on trees. Teacher salaries have to paid, utilities have to paid, supplies/books bought etc. If it costs $5,000/child and you only pay $4,000, then $1,000 has to come from somewhere. Its nice to say “Oh 5% of your salary” but that won’t pay the bills!
NNJ is in no way a “glam” lifestyle. And since average family size is 3-5, and in lakewood is 8-10, when you factor in people in NNJ generally have 2 working parents with higher paying jobs, I think the struggle to put 3-5 kids through Yeshiva balances with the struggle to put 8-10.
Squeak, providing a no frills schools is not really the answer. People in Northern NJ want the better education the schools have to offer, they just can’t afford it. If they wanted to, there is a school in Staten Island that with busing is around $8,000. That’s about half a tuition! People want the top notch education and don’t want to pay the price. It doesn’t work that way…you can only have top notch if you can afford it. I am willing to forgo most things (including eating rice and beans if I can get my husband on board LOL) to ensure my kids have a great education.