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Wolf, not to be haughty, but this thread is more about me 🙂
Hereorthere, you are clearly misunderstanding what I said.
Many aspects of society (both Jewish and non) influence our children. I want to start young making sure my sons NEVER view women as objects, not that they WILL. There is a big difference. Its like saying I want my kids to keep certain halacha before they are obligated because I don’t want them to think certain things are ok and then have to change. Its important to build a proper foundation – that is what chinuch is all about. I am not aiming to emasculate my sons, just for them to respect that they are no better than women because they were born male.
I also think you don’t understand feminism or the teaching profession. Feminism is about women having the same choices as men (especially as it relates to jobs, salaries etc). A woman CHOOSING to be the breadwinner and support her husband in Kollel is only fully possible because of feminism. Without it, a woman would never be paid a living wage like a breadwinning man is.
Why are so many women teachers? Its because the hours are shorter and they get summers off. They can spend more time with their children. I think they especially enjoy younger children more than most men. Are there competent men who are teachers? Sure. Are there competent women who are math/science people? Yes – you are talking to one of them.
I think your ideas of what feminism are are skewed.
I like Filenes Basement.
In the past I’ve had good results at the Gap.
I don’t shop much – I need a new long jean skirt. I’m willing to pay for it, because I wear mine ALL the time (even to work). I’ll probably hit Ruthies in Monsey.
I’m not asking to be judged, I’m saying its a part of who I am. I didn’t say its necessarily positive or negative, just an aspect of myself.
So how is any of this a ‘totally separate entity FROM being a wife and mother?
You don’t see how parts of me (for example being an engineer) are totally seperate from being a wife and mother? I was going for my engineering degree before I met my husband. I was working as an engineer well before I had children. Being an engineer is a big part of who I am – it encompasses my logical, math oriented personality. It is a big reflection of who I am. Am I saying being an engineer is more impportant than keeping halacha? No way, but I never made that claim. You seem to be extrapolating based on what you think my views are, not on what I am saying.
What kind of role model is my husband? He is a warm, kind, wonderful man. He is a logical, smart, dedicated person (both in halacha, learning, davening, as well as to people). He has a variety of interests that have nothing to do with being a father or son. He also has no problem doing housework, cooking and tending to the children. My husband shows his children love, warmth and understanding. He can also show them how to build, install, take apart and do various “manly” power tool kind of things. Basically, he has many different aspects to his personality that don’t have anything to do with being a husband and father. Those traits and thoughts and opinions CARRY OVER into being a husband and father. I never realized people believed that one aspect defines who you are.
No, I don’t believe women are better than men. I don’t “browbeat my boys as mysoginists who only see women as objects.” My sons are 2 and 8 months LOL. I am preemptively teaching them to respect women so that they DON’T end up viewing women as objects.
Thank you MDD and GAW. I’m going to look into that.
LOL Wolf!
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Squeak, the salary may be $50,000 but if you have 4 kids in school for free that’s AT LEAST another $20,000 non-taxable money.
Sure Squeak, what do you want? You realize it means you need to reveal yourself to me though.
hereorthere, Do you think women are JUST wives and mothers? Are men JUST husbands and fathers? I don’t know about you, but in addition to me being a wife and mother, I am also a daughter, grandaughter, aunt, neice, friend, engineer, shul committee member, knitter, reader, bargain shopper, have a thirst for learning random subjects, love hiking and traveling, happy person with many other traits and thoughts and opinions. And I make a really great cheesecake 🙂
Did I ever say my husband “obeys” me? He is also a unique individual with thoughts and feelings and we are married. I don’t know about you, but my idea of marriage is blended two peoples lives to build a cohesive unit, often requiring compromise from both sides. We love, support, help, care for each other. We don’t demand, obligate, force or coerce each other to do what the other one wants. [to clarify, all these things within the halachic framework – we follow our rav for halachic shailas]
I don’t believe women are better than men. I don’t believe men are better than women. I think we were created differently and those differences enhance our coexistance rather than detract if we let it. But yes, I must be a feminist because I think that women working the same job as men should get equal pay (insert eye roll here).
I’m not sure what I am saying that is against halacha or hashkafa. Wouldn’t you call a society where women are the breadwinners and have much more secular education a feminist society?
MDD, can you cite the Rama? I would like to learn it inside. I always thought that women are NOT obligated to get married because doing so would obligate them to have children, and that women are NOT obligated to have children because it puts them in a makom sakana. Anyway, I would love to look it up.
Oh and hereorthere, yes, ritalin is overused because schools cannot often handle overactive kids disrupting the classroom. They are understaffed. But your thoughts on it “pushing the liberal womens agenda” shows how little you really know about feminism.
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Ramat, who says I am not doing anything outside of YWN? And who says someone won’t read this post and think “that is a great way to instill tznius in my children without being too over the top.”
I’m starting with my sons. I am teaching them to respect women as people rather than objects. Respect that they have thoughts, feelings, ideas etc that are not related to being a wife and mother. I am trying to give them a strong role model as a woman, and DH is giving them a strong role model as a man.
I speak to my nieces about this topic. Some of them are struggling with their teenage years. Sometimes, its not about telling them to cover their body parts as it is to get them to start to respect their body and move towards tznius.
Having their own thoughts and feelings is one thing.
Being so ‘independent’ so as to not wnat to marry or in any other way start following the Radical feminist anti male anti cohesive family….Agenda, is a totally different thing.
Bolded mine. You equated not wanting to marry with the radical feminist agenda.
Its ok to thin that way, but at least be honest about it.
You did.
A woman is her own person. She should only marry if its what she wants to do. There is nothing radical about that.
So right, if you test out circumstances, why would you need a ruler?
I went with my friend to get her Bais Yaakov uniform. She is short. They measured 4″ below her knees and it was actually much longer than they wanted it. The lady measuring was not sure what to do. Eventually, she made the measurement shorter because 4″ just seemed absurd on my friend.
Emoticon, there are rabbonim who permit ascending the temple mount. When I was in high school, I had a Rabbi as a teacher who held that the fact we control Har Habayis, we should 100% be bringing karbanos.
I know some people who have had the pleasure of going on Har Habayis. The spoke about what an amazing, spiritual journey it was. They went to the mikvah before hand and prayed really well.
Perhaps this is the start of Moshiach. Showing Hashem we WANT it.
So right, that is 100% wrong. A ruler doesn’t tell you that. Moving around in the skirt does. Sitting down, standing up, leaning over.
I missed the edit window – my mother gave me an amazing amount of self worth and taught me how to be humble, modest and still value yourself.
I had a terrible school upbringing relating to this topic (both a right wing school and a MO school). Its why I’m extra passionate about this subject.
My sister and brother in law live in Lakewood. He is a working guy. They are very happy there at the moment.
However, my sister did say if she had sons she would not be happy with the education there. While they do an excellent job with limudei kodesh, they have extremely limited limudei chol. If that bothers you would have to bus your kids to Deal or Highland Park.
Hereorthere, I never heard of men not giving a get because all they heard about was the aguna issue.
One way to start teaching about tznius better, is to make it less a focus of every single lesson. Sounds counterproductive right? But when you do speak about it, your audience will listen.
The first thing to do is to stop teaching that women cover themselves to help men. Start teaching frum kids the way that BTs are taught – about a woman’s beauty and how she has to protect it FOR HERSELF. Show young girls that if a woman values herself as an individual, she will value maintaining her modesty. Its important to empower women with tznius not devalue them. Woman are not just around to wait until a man comes along to marry them so they can have lots and lots of children. Girls need to understand that they are people with thougths, feelings and purpose INDEPENDANT of men.
And for the love of pete, never take out a ruler to measure her skirt when fitting her for a uniform.
clearheaded, I have been married for over 5 years. Is that “new”?
I never said if I don’t dress tzanua I wouldn’t be partaking in a man’s sin that I may cause. But it doesn’t exempt him from shmiras eynayim. If I am 100% tzanua according to my shitta, and a man still has trouble and sins, that has nothing to do with me!
Squeak, the point about it being a mitzvah for women having nothing to do with men is this: I keep the halachos of tznius because its commanded to ME. I don’t keep it to help a man with shmiras eynayim. Its a great side effect, but its not the reason I keep the halacha.
So if a man comes up to me and says “I find bare legs (below the knee, halachically acceptable according to my rabbonim) too alluring, please cover them” then I am not going to. I am not keeping the halacha according to my shitta for HIS sake. I am keeping it to conform to my halachic standards. Otherwise, Orthodox Jewish women would end up in burqas.
I am only responsible to ensure that I keep halacha, I cannot control what others do. No matter how tzanua (or lack thereof) I dress, it does not exempt a man from his mitzvah of shmiras eynayim. Remember, side effect, not root cause.
[see my illness/antibiotics analogy posted back in this thread]
Hereorthere (take 2, although I don’t quite understand what was wrong with take 1):
You need to teach in an effective way. Not in volume. Volume means nothing if the message is NOT being recieved. Sometimes, the more you say the less you say. Why aren’t kids in school 12 hours a day? Because they can’t learn that long. After a while, nothing really sinks in. That’s why kids are in school for shorter hours – they can learn and absorb better that way (obviously, a balance on both ends).
When every speech is about tznius, people stop listening. People don’t take it seriously because its become the catch all of everything, rather than have people take their own personal responsibility.
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Tzippi, I personally think its the fact that tznius is so emphasized in schools that it becomes background noise. People start to ignore it and do what they want. A BT friend of mine told me that if she had learnt tznius the way her daughters were being taught, she would have run away from the religion. She was taught similiar to what clearheaded posted.
But I do want to reiterate, most frum women I know dress for women and not for men. Teenager years may be different (I still think more dress for women than men).
Yeshivaguy, sounds like its time to start working on “shmiras eynayim”!
Tznius is a woman’s mitzvah with set guidelines. That’s why we have halacha – to define what needs to be covered.
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and to cover them is considered provocative
That’s a new one to me.
I’ve always asked if people think that our ancestors wore socks in the desert and not sandals. The only answer people have given me in this regard is that:
1) people wore long robes so their ankles were covered
2) Its minhag hamakom
So then I pose this question back to you – if long clothing is NOT tzanua, did our ancestors wear sandals or socks? If you say socks, please provide some documentation that socks existed in the desert because I’ve never heard of it.
I think if you think a conversation about a woman’s erva can be discussed cross gender, the topic I mentioned (I don’t understand why you won’t say it, do you avoid saying avodah zara?) should be fair game as well.
Although I agree its better left between the same gender. Although I do think its appropriate for a Rabbi to teach as well.
I understand that Wolf. I heard the speakers were really great though. And really engaging.
A boring chavrusa can put you to sleep also.
Also, the speakers gave out source sheets so you were following along actively.
My shul does a learning program with different people speaking every 45 minutes, with a few minutes in between for drinks and snacks.
Although I couldn’t go, I heard everything was fascinating.
One speaker spoke about the origins of Lag B’Omer. Not as pashut as one might think!
BP Totty, I picked that example because while it is technically a men’s issue, it does ultimately affect women. Its an issue that affects boys from around Bar Mitzvah and upwards. It doesn’t start nor end with marriage, but does affect marriages. So it may not be as “visible” but it still impacts many, many people. I just thought this was an example that men would connect to.
Ultimate the “its practiced in public” line is one I hate. I’m not accusing you of this, but I think society has denegrated itself towards “what not nice we don’t show” but still allows the “whats not nice” – meaning things like tax fraud/evasion and the like. Just because you don’t see it directly doesn’t mean it doesn’t affect you.
TMB, actually, if you think you should ask a gadol about a move, it should be about any move because “meshana makom, meshana mazal.” At least be consistent.
Well TMB, do you agree with my definition?
LOL Wolf.
My common sense tells me “my vote, my choice.” I can ask my Rav for an eitzah, but why would I ask him for psak?
According to Charlie (I would love to see him point out where), Rav Soloveitchik, who was a gadol, disagreed.
This is something I struggle with, especially when it comes to limiting freedoms. Is it fair that I (as a minority – be it Jewish or female) ask for rights and then refuse them to others? I specifically have issues with this relating to toeva. I don’t agree with condoning it, but I would have trouble voting against it. I also understand why a Rabbi has to come out against it.
Technically though, if the shul is a non-profit, they are NOT allowed to tell you to vote one way or another otherwise they risk losing their non-profit status.
Hereorthere, the gossip you are discussing changes. The tznius doesn’t change much.
Charlie, that’s a very good point. When I was in elementary school, I had a teacher that really stressed that long skirts were absolutely under no circumstance tzanua. She refused to allow the thought that there were other shittas on this. She made us all feel so guilty about wearing long skirts, that I took to wearing short skirts (AKA above my knees) because she never stressed that and I felt less guilty (I didn’t wear short skirts for that long). It wasn’t until after 4 years of a good high school that I truly understand the full error of her ways and the guilt over long skirts (which my rav holds is 100% muttar) started to erode.
I thought about this during Chag and I thought of another thing.
Growing up, tznius is really shoved down girls throats (and I do mean that almost literally). Have a spare moment? Lets talk tznius. Mussar time? Almost exclusively tznius. Teacher allows an off topic day? Steers conversation towards tznius.
I think to a certain degree people stop listening when its just too often. There’s a saturation point where its INEFFECTIVE. I think this has only gotten worse since I’ve left school (after discussing this with my older neices). I think schools are overdoing it and concentrating too harshly on tznius. Perhaps if they stepped back a bit, girls might want to do more.
man is more necessary for the general survival of our culture/social standard than a women.
If I understand the halacha correctly, that’s not what its saying. Its saying that because men can do more mitzvos,you save them. Not because they are more necessary for survival, because you need more women than men for that.
[Now AZ should chime in that not in the current climate because there is a glut of older women so its EXTRA important to save a man for the age gap]
I don’t think its faulty. Halacha doesn’t give women the capacity to do as many mitzvos and then says “save men first because they have more mitzvos.” That’s like saying to my son “I’m not going to feed you because you didn’t earn any money to contribute” after refusing to allow him to get an after school job.
I realize its a quantity thing. But women are patur from time bound mitzvos because they are raising children. So halacha exempts them and then saves them last?
Eh, its ok. I’ve never been given a good answer to this from any rabbonim I’ve asked, so I don’t expect to get a great one from random people in the CR.
Art, you can’t always verify that.
Eh, that’s a weak reason IMO. You need women to fulfill the mitzvah of peru urevu. If there are ten men and one woman left in the world, the woman can only have one child (for the most part) at a time. One man and ten women could mean ten children born at a time.
TMB, that applies to all mitzvos. Hashem knows intention, level etc. If we are talking about why we consider it part of “the big three” that answer isn’t really an answer.
I always wondered why taharas hamishpacha is included. That’s not really something you can verify. You can sort of verify shabbos and kashrus.
TMB, so that only works for men? Otherwise, why would you be required to save a man over a woman?
TMB, I’m not sure that’s the halachic viewpoint. You don’t get credit for mitzvos you can’t do. All else being equal, you save a man over a woman because he can do more mitzvos.
Yitayn, zera livatala has the potential to create lots of shalom bayis issues. I obviously won’t extrapolate here.
Besides, you could argue that women talking to men about it might increase awareness to the struggles of men and make them WANT to be more tzanua.
I don’t know. I think there are some conversations that shouldn’t be discussed.
Wolf, have I ever told you how much I enjoy your posts? (your blog too, but you are way too quiet on that front)
TMB, there are certain topics that are better left between the affected genders.
Do you think it would be strange if women and men were having a detailed discussion about zera livatala? I’m not talking about a tachlis discussion with a rav, a man and his wife. I’m talking about a thread on YWN.
TMB, can you fulfill all 613? You would be a first 🙂
Says who, I don’t know anyone who can fulfill all 613.
Trying, but that’s in the beis medrash with a specific purpose. That doesn’t seem to be the point in the tznius threads I’ve seen on YWN.
Artchill, if that happens once or twice in the person life and they do the wrong thing, I wouldn’t call them not frum. I would only assume they aren’t frum if it happens habitually.
I love a good debate. And I don’t lack debate skills.
I don’t like tznius threads here because it seems like every other word out of everyones mouths nowadays is “tznius” and “women aren’t following tznius” and “womens tznius issues are causing all our problems”
I prefer to keep the tznius debates to the womens only forums that I am part of. It sort of feels wrong to me for men and women without halachic reason (such as a rav or someone learning halachos together) to be debating these things. For all the talk of keeping things tznius, doesn’t this lead men to think more about erva and shok than they should be?
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