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I prefer to judge women and men on an individual basis, not on the basis of gender. Some women are less intellectual, some more.
Kasha, the point is still that Devorah was a leader. She had the mental capabilities to lead the Jewish nation. It would be nice if men who think women can’t lead would acknowledge that yes, there are women who can.
Squeak, while I agree with that, these statements were also mentioned:
Girls do not have the intellectual stability and are, therefore, unable to make profound inquries with a sharp mind…
Most women’s minds are not geared toward being taught…
Women are lightheaded.
Most women I know do not fall into any of these categories. Most women I know are bright, intelligent, deep thinkers who learn very well and have a serious approach to learning.
Saying they don’t have the intellectual acumen men do is a way of saying stupid.
Kasha, can you answer my question about Devorah?
No you didn’t. Union salaries are non-negotiable. What I want to know is if you think the paygrade for a specific union job should be different based on gender.
You also didn’t answer my question about Devorah.
I would say my sample size is at least across a broad range of spectrum from women all across America. I don’t claim to be statistically accurate, but I know more than “I was shocked to hear and see one woman after another interviewed or speaking as a ‘news reporter” taking about how they all seemed to go for Clinton and just about all of them gaves as the reason that “oh he is so good looking, I just HAD to vote for him”. Especially since you don’t specify a quantity, I’ll assume less than ten. I know more than ten women.
Kasha, you still didn’t answer my Union question or my Devorah question.
I am probably more familiar with women’s voting choices then you are. I am part of plenty of Jewish and non Jewish womens only boards where politics come up frequently.
Hereorthere, there are plenty of stupid people out there and many of them are uninformed voters. They vote for race, religion, gender, quality of looks…I bet you can find a lot of black males who voted for Obama because he is black. That doesn’t mean all black men who voted for Obama were uninformed in their choice. It just means SOME are.
I personally don’t know any woman who voted for Clinton because he was good looking.
Kasha, you didn’t answer. You skirted the issue by saying “no two people and no two jobs are the same.” I pointed to union work where the jobs are the same and each person is expected to perform the same amount of work. Should a woman and man in the same function and performing the same amount of work be given the same salary or should the woman automatically get less because of her gender?
You also didn’t answer the question about Devorah leading the Jews if she was inferior.
Kasha, you still aren’t answering my questions. If you don’t want to answer, please just say so.
Smartcookie – you can also do a date night at home (this works when your kids are little).
Also, try trading babysitting hours with a friend – you’ll come to her place once a week and she’ll come to yours.
Mosherose, clearly not if there is more than one person who says yes. I know of at least 2 rabbonim who say its ok.
When literacy rates were extremely low, and women were even less educated than men, yes they couldn’t learn. I can’t imagine anyone would call Nechama Leibowitz immoral.
Kasha, you still haven’t answered my union question – do you think that women should automatically be given a lower wage for the same job (including same tasks, qualifications etc) JUST because she is a woman and not a man?
Also, why was Devorah allowed to lead the nation if women are stupid?
Oomis – 🙂
Mosherose, why was Devorah allowed to lead? Was she intellectually inferior to the men she was leading?
There are many stupid, bad, harmful leaders in this world who were men.
Anyone else find this post so sad that it turned funny?
Squeak, I have no brothers 🙂
Wolf, I’m surprised no one tried to play the yichud card with that LOL.
Kasha, you haven’t answered my Union question.
A father doesn’t babysit his kids – he watches his kids.
And Wolf, I’m laughing at the “stupider” comment – was that intentional?
Kasha, my father died when I was a young child. So I had neither a husband nor father when I turned 18. Who was my voice then if I didn’t have the right to vote?
Kasha, we are not talking about making someone do backbreaking labor or sewing. We are talking about people VOLUNTARILY choosing careers. If a man has talent at something, isn’t that where he should be focusing his skills?
Why is it ok for both men and women to be teachers? Both involve caring for children.
So a non-Jewish woman who has no connection to Judaism whatsoever should be barred from being a firefighter (assuming she can fulfill the requirements) because its unbecoming? Remember, we are talking about secular society rules, not Jewish ones here.
And I work for a union based company – should a union member who is female get an automatic lower pay rate because she is female? Everyone who joins at a certain position gets the exact same wage. Should they lower womens salaries?
Kasha, I for one do not agree with lowering requirements. If a woman CAN meet the more stringent requirements, should she be barred?
OK Kasha, now I see where you are coming from. You don’t think women should be able to vote at all. Yes, I think that is 100% wrong. As a legal adult in society, I think my voice is just as important as anyone elses.
As to “no two employees are the same” – you are hiding behind a screen. Sure, a better employee should be rewarded better, but not based on gender – based on job performance. And yes, some jobs are exactly the same – I work for a union based company and many people have the exact same task responsibilities.
What jobs are better suited to men? If a woman wants to be a firefighter and can meet all the qualifications (weight lifting and other performance based things that I don’t know of), should she be chosen after a man who can’t fulfill those requirements?
There is good and bad in every movement (just about) and feminism has its benefits and drawbacks. I don’t think you can blame the lack of family values on feminism. A woman who doesn’t want a family for “feminist” reasons is not breaking apart families.
Kasha, I know a lot of hardcore feminists. They don’t want to destroy the family unit – they want choices.
Do you believe that a woman should be allowed to vote in secular society? Own land? Have equal pay for the same job? Have access to the same jobs men have assuming they have the same qualifications?
I go on during work.
I don’t usually take a lunch break, so instead I surf randomly through the day.
Hereorthere, I have never heard of a man pressuring a woman into going to a specific career. All the career driven women I know (that you claim are feminists) wanted to do so themselves.
Gitgezungt, there are consequences – there is a black mark on your record.
Some problems that you can’t see on a few dates are verbal and emotional abuse. A friend of mine was dating a guy who seemed awesome for the first 2 months. After that, thigns slowly started to unravel and she broke up with him.
Most people I know look at marriage as forever unless there are problems. I think its somewhat easier to work on your problems when you are married because you are already committed and divorce is an expensive prospect, especially with children. But some things are better not to be entered lightly.
Wolf, I did on page 2:
“Yes, I do think secular society should be about men and women being equal. Women SHOULD (and thankfully are) allowed to vote, own property, have no men enforcing rules on them.”
And then I added that halachically its different.
But I agree with your expanded post.
Kasha,
Aside from the fact that I think hotels are perfectly fine, keep in mind that many people’s apartments are not ready the night of their wedding. I had quite a few friends who stayed by parents or temporary places for the first few weeks of their marriage.
And no, I would not want to spend the night of my Chasuna in my family’s house.
Initial poll results in: 11 women said they don’t wash their husbands feet (many were grossed out at the thought) and none said they did.
Yit, you verbalized my point nicely 🙂
Which poster said their wife washes their feet or they wash their husbands feet?
I’m going to do a poll on a frum women’s website and get an answer.
GAW, yes but its not something that’s forbidden for any real reason. That’s not enough to make me stop wearing denim.
Mod, Sofdavar made a point that royalt doesn’t wear denim but is wrong. I pointed out that EDITED (a member of a modern royal family) did wear denim. Is there a reason this isn’t allowed to be posted?
GAW, he specifically wanted me to nurse for the health benefits of the baby. Formula is an adequate substitute, but not really the same thing. I’m not sure what halacha would require.
Kasha, there are plenty of issues that are not really halachic and just about every day life. And then there are halachic things – do you require your wife to wash your feet? You are allowed to technically. Would you beat her (or have beis din beat her) until she washed your feet if she didn’t want to?
It would take a lot to convince me that denim is not appropriate.
GAW is that serious question? Denim material is what jeans and jean skirts are made of. They are hardy, very washable, very forgiving and comfortable.
EDITED
I was always told that if someone tells you thier food is kosher and they are knowledgable in halacha, you can trust them.
If you have specific requirements (like CY or Bais Yosef) you can ask the person before hand.
My sister and BIL are more machmir than I am, so when they come I either don’t serve them certain things or preprare it the way they want. There are certain items they don’t eat at other people unless they know the people eat it a certain way. They just don’t make a big deal about it.
Pesach is definately different as there are so many different minhagim and chumras.
Thank you GAW, I knew I wasn’t crazy 🙂
Hereorthere, it would make sense that woman no longer has to wash her husbands feet as its not done today and the Ramabam quoted those things as “what women do” – it would make sense for the “what women do” list to be updated.
Now, I’m very machmir so I follow that list. I didn’t want to nurse my kids, but my husband asked me to and I did. I also knit – does that count as spinning?
People often reveal secrets after they are engaged. Sometimes its enough to break up an engagement.
Chesed, that story says nothing. It says a husband and wife disagreed so they got divorced. Actually, I think it says that they clearly didn’t have a strong marriage to begin with.
And I can’t think of a certain item that my husband and I would disagree on so vehemently that we couldn’t agree or compromise on.
Wolf, well the Rambam says “These are the things women do for their husbands so all women have to do them.” That changes with time. I wouldn’t say so much that the halacha changes, but the details may.
Actually, a lot of halacha is based on what is done with society. That is why I wonder if the concept of the Rambam applies but not the details. Is a woman really obligated to wash her husband’s feet nowadays when its not done? Perhaps not. Are there other obligations she has? Probably. I haven’t had time to ask my Rabbi this yet.
I’m scratching my head because I could have sworn in school I learnt that if one spouse wants to make aliyah the other is obligated. Otherwise, they couldn’t obligate their spouse to move.
And he didn’t obligate his wife. He forced her to take a get. That’s a huge difference.
Since my husband can’t veto it, I’m painting his man cave bright pink!
Chesed, I can’t imagine a situation where my husband and I are so at odds and neither is willing to compromise. Maybe we just have a really great marriage.
HAHA! I’ll look him up. I’ve heard the exothermic/endothermic example but “yours” was a new one.
Squeak, you are awesome!
Trolling squeak? I was explaining a real life situation. Sure, most people here are probably outraged at the thought of a coed school (although boys do learn better in coed schools so this could be an anti feminist move on my part LOL), its a relevant example.
Chesedname, a marraige of 50%-50% doesn’t mean that literally. It means neither is the boss.
In my marriage, the person who is most passionate about the subject generally wins. We love in each other and want the best for our family, so we don’t overuse this.
For example, we are looking at schools. DH really wants a gender specific school for our children. The only school like that near us is a school I won’t send my kids to because IMHO the administration doesn’t care about the children from what I’ve seen. I am more passionate about that, so we are probably going with a coed school. My husband has no problem with this, even though his preference is to not send our kids to coed schools.
Oh and I would keep bothering them. If they wont’ refund your money (they won’t) badger them for a big discount. Its worth your time and effort to hound them. At the very least they should fix the problem.
When I was single, I bought a twin bed. Two years later, I called the same store to get a bed for my husband. I told them I was coming back so that the beds would match.
Lo and behold, the box springs didn’t match. So I called. I was constantly put on hold, told they would call me back etc. This went on for almost 2 years. Yes, I was a new kallah living with two different height beds.
Finally, my mother called up someone influential (a local mayor) who was connected to the store and they replaced the box spring.
Moral of the story? Always pay by credit card.
Kollel families may be the minority of general working people, but this is Yeshiva World right? Isn’t it the ideal in most parts of the community to support your husband working?
And what I said was tongue in cheek – its virtually impossible to make women stay home nowadays, and not just for the obvious things Anon brought about. Culture and lifestyle have totally changed, that’s why that statement from the Rambam doesn’t quite apply today.
Sofdavar, I agree with you.
Actually, you called me a “they” in your first paragraph and then misquoted what I was saying.
And there is NOT a rampant and obvious imposition of anti male feminist agenda in public schools, unless you count the idea that girls can excel at math at science as well as boys can anti-male.
Yes, I do think secular society should be about men and women being equal. Women SHOULD (and thankfully are) allowed to vote, own property, have no men enforcing rules on them.
When it comes to halacha, that’s what we follow. If a woman wants some more responsibility within halacha (like davening 3 times a day), as long as its within the halachic framework, why not?
Hereorthere, I think girls should be trained to believe that men are people. They are not just there to earn money and father children. They are individuals with thoughts, feelings, want, needs etc. I believe its important to teach both boys AND girls that neither gender is greater than the other and that aside for a limited scope of halachic rulings, both women and men can accomplish whatever they want.
And actually, you did call me out based on what I wrote “in two threads.” Its ok to criticise me and call me out, but please at least own up to what you are doing. Even if this thread isn’t about me, when you comment about what I am saying, don’t backtrack and say “but the statement isn’t about you.” Yes it is. This is something you’ve done multiple times on the few threads I’ve been involved with you.
Anon I like the steam reference 🙂
Mosherose, if you want women to stay home, how do you propose that happens? Does that mean Kollel has to shut down?
Hereorthere, I didn’t say all about me, I said MORE. And I put a smiley…I was joking.
The reason I mentioned boys is because I HAVE TWO SONS AND NO DAUGHTERS. It has nothing to do with feminism. You are reading into it. And no, I am not angry at being called a feminist. I think a lot of good has come out of the feminist movement.
Mosherose, if you are who I think you are, what happened to the sweet boy who would spend hours watching sportscenter? Your posts make me laugh!
Cooking is not a task only done by women. It is also done by men (especially bachelors). It is ASSUR for a man to dye his hair. I’ve never heard anyone say its assur for a man to cook.
I actually wonder how the Rambam and Rama manifest itself in today’s day and age. After all, those were tasks that women did in those days and NOT doing them was considered rebellion. But nowadays those are not the tasks everyone does. I mean, do you know anyone (barring a disabled spouse) who washes her husband’s feet? I’m going to ask my Rav about this.
Now there are halachic things that a woman cannot do – like never be part of a minyan. But other than that? The sky is the limit for her.
Kasha, that’s changing his question.
My husband puts up dinner many nights because he comes home earlier than I do. He also picks up the kids from daycare because he drives to work and I take the bus. My schedule is such that I can’t do drop-off and pick-up and he can.