SJSinNYC

What did artchill say that was false?

Yes I think he is a voice a reason to tell people if you are in an abusive relationship, get out. If you see abusive tendencies in your fiance, leave so you don’t have to find out.

If you are self proclaiming yourself a voice of reason that’s fine. I don’t agree but you can call yourself whatever you want.

Why do they need less dates? They have a different concept of the base of a marriage.

I needed to marry someone I loved and knew very well. I couldn’t marry a stranger.

They want to marry someone who fits their criteria that they get along with. Then they build their base.

Neither is better or worse, just different.

I just read an interesting article in the New York Times. In Sweden, giving men paternity leave (and 80% of them taking it) has lowered their divorce rate.

Please cite a place where we can find that feminists are “admit they are frusterated with equality because they really want superiority and always have.”

If someone claims or tries to imply that feminists never try and abuse the court system or act like

all divorce cases in the frum community are some kind of abuse.

Who claimed or implied that feminists never tried to abuse the court system? You make it sound like every case is run according to radical feminists who are evil.

The Torah allows divorce. The Torah doesn’t say “treat your marriage like its disposable” but it does recognize that there are times when divorce is needed. Why is there Gittin??? I’m glad the Torah is run according to Hashem, and not Hereorthere.

EDITED

BTW Teaneck is a very Jewish area. But nice try.

Physical/emotional abuse should be worked through? Often it can’t.

Substance abuse – a friend of mine was in a marriage where her husband was addicted to painkillers. After a year of therapy, she realized his life wasn’t going to change. He was on and off his meds througout that year, trying and ultimately telling her he couldn’t give up drugs for her. That should be worked through?

Lying about anything major in my book is AUTOMATIC ground for divorce in my humble opinion. You take away peoples options when you lie. People have a right to make decisions based on facts, not based on what you want others to percieve. Marriage is not a garment to be tried on and discarded. But you need a foundation of trust and honesty to have a good marriage.

And when people do get divorced, we should support them. There is no need to treat others poorly because you disagree with thier (halachically valid) divorce. We aren’t Catholic.

Kasha, that’s what I got from talking to chassidish women.

Divorce is a stigma across all of Orthodox Judaism, but more so in the chassidish world.

From what I understand, divorce is a great stigma in the chassidish world than in the rest of Judaism. So people are more likely to stay in bad marriages.

Hereorthere, in my experience, parents who want to ignore their kids will find a way no matter what the situation. Parents who want to spend time with their kids will find a way (generally).

I live in Bergen County where life is expensive. You need $200,000 to break even with 4 kids in Yeshiva (don’t believe me? There is a blog called 200kchump that talks all about it). Most families cannot sustain that salary with one parent working. So yes, both parents generally need to work. I would rather help support my family than have to take any form of tzedaka (including food stamps, tomchei shabbos, section 8, welfare, yeshiva tuition scholarships etc). There are plenty of people who NEED tzedaka but I don’t. Why? Because feminism allowed to break into a field that was primarily male dominated and obtain a comparbale salary for comparable work. So in my case, “feminism” is support a Torah education for my kids. (and no, we don’t earn $200,000 LOL)

BTW Hereorthere, I don’t generally assume hostility/anger, so I’m not 100% sure why I read it that way. Thank you for accepting my apology. Good luck learning to italicize, bold etc.

About battered women:

From Domestic Violence Resource Center: Studies show that access to shelter services leads to a 60-70% reduction in incidence

From Commision on Domestic Violence: More than half of female victims of intimate violence live in households with children under age 12.

From ABA on why women stay:

If the batterer holds a prominent position in the community, the victim may doubt her ability to make herself heard or believed.

If the batterer is the primary wage earner,the victim may question her ability to provide for herself and her children.

The victim may still love the batterer; if she has children, she may have concerns about separating them from their father and raising them alone.

The batterer may blame the abuse on substance abuse issues or job stress, leading the victim to believe that if these problems can be solved, the domestic violence will end.

father requested some form of custody, he was successful.

The victim may be without financial resources if she leaves, and may not have marketable job skills.

charm or charisma.

Religious beliefs may lead victims to think they must tolerate the abuse to adhere to their faith.

Cultural defenses may be cited by batterers,victims, or other community members; similarly, the victim may feel torn

between reporting the abuse and participating in a justice system she feels is biased against her ethnic or racial group.

Giving women access to shelters and resources resulted in a 60-70% reduction. So sure, loving a spouse even when they beat you is illogical (never mind the logic that goes into beating your spouse), but there are many more reasons why women stay. Given teh 60-70% reduction, if you teach a woman that she is a human being and give her the resources to stand on her own two feet (which is what feminism does with regards to giving women access to jobs that can support families), she will leave the horrific situation. Feminism helps solve that problem.

Never mind that before feminism (at least in secular society), women were the possesion of men. Abuse? You must have deserved it. Spousal rape? No such thing.

I wouldn’t say men and women are equally illogical, just differently illogical. Men are more likely to destroy their marriages by seeking happiness outside the home. Women are more likely to stay in a bad marriage longer. Both are destructive in different ways.

(I’ll continue in another post)

Missme, I am MO. I lived in Brooklyn as a single girl. I asked my local Rabbi about using the eruv and was told it was halachically OK.

My husband grew up in Brooklyn and his family held the eruv was not ok. We discussed this with our Rav before getting married. I also didn’t necessarily adopt my husband’s leniencies in certain areas.

We all recieve different piskei halacha. I follow mine, you follow yours.

I also have friends that did not take on Chalav Yisrael when they got married to men who did.

Not everything is so cut and dried.

Hereorthere, clearly a career minded woman needs to marry someone who agrees with that philosophy. But you specified For example Feminism is infiltrating the Jewish communitry and often unless the man is going to push the women into becomming a doctor or lawyer or business executive or some other “high powered” career some of them think these days that he will “think of her only as an object”

I’ve never heard of a man PUSHING the woman into a high powered position.

Hereorthere, I apologize for reading your tone wrong. It sounded angry but its hard to read tone over the internet.

I’ll be back later to answer your questions/statements.

in order to make your claim that they never stayed in the relationship just because they believe that “he still lobves me”.

Please show me where I made that claim.

Unfortunately YWN won’t let me post a few recent examples of politicians who threw their careers away on illogical decisions.

Please point me to evidence that feminism caused MORE abuse and not less.

Before feminism, women stayed in abusive marriages because they had no way out. They were beaten, the kids were beaten and everything stayed behind closed doors.

A cop who has a gun and is a sharpshooter can use it. You are also claiming that I said a 5’2″ 100 lb woman would make an excellent beat cop. I didn’t – I referenced being a detective, a job that requires critical thinking skills more than brawn.

I never said having brawn means you don’t have brains. I referenced one vs the other.

No more then you seem to be getting worked up over that fact that radical feminism is at odds with a Torah lifestyle such as putting the premium on motherhood and rasing the kids and not just paying some babysitter or “nanny” to do it.

Actually, I would love nothing more than to be a stay at home mother. Unfortunately, I cannot afford to. I’m just thankful for “radical feminism” that allows me a comparable salary to my male counterparts based on ability, not by gender.

Sure some women are promoted because they want a woman (or minority of some sort) promoted. But many competent, deserving women get promoted as well.

Neither Sarah Palin nor Hillary Clinton are great leaders in my mind. I can’t really point to a great male leader at this moment either. Sadly, I think we have no great secular leaders at this time.

GAW, thanks. I don’t have a problem with dissenting opinions, but appartently Kasha thinks they can all occur simultaneously.

BTW, I fully acknowledge my husband’s leadership when it comes to halchic rulings*. When it comes to things that aren’t halacha, we are equal.

(except for tuna fish – it makes me feel like I’m eating treif to eat Starkist so we only buy dagim, but he can eat tuna fish outside of the house whereas I would not)

I opted for the pain so I could avoid the sorrow.

GAW, I’ll look a little later. You always respond, so thank you 🙂 Does Rashi explain how its not a contradiction? I thought R’ Hillel’s opinion was rejected by everyone else.

Hereorthere, I think you are really stretching if you say I am illogical for using the term marriage vs relationship. What is especially ironic is that womens liberation is THE BEST ANTIDOTE to abusive marriages as it teaches women to stand up for themselves and gives them the proper tools to be able to leave an abusive marriage.

Both men and women do illogical things for love.

I didn’t say those who stayed because of love were logical. I don’t claim that all women are logical. Nor do I claim all men are logical.

I’m not ignoring facts and you seem to be getting worked up over this. I wonder if you are threatened by the idea that women can be great secular leaders?

I never claimed that a male police officer is doing the exact same thing as a female police officer. What I did say was that IF they are both doing the same tasks, then they should be paid the same. The truth is, pure strength is not always the best way to guage the effectiveness of a cop or firefighter. If you have all brawn, but no brains, its often useless and can get a cop or firefighter in trouble. If you have all brain and no brawn, in certain positions you are fine. I think a balance of both is best. Just because a man is 6’2″ and 250 lbs doesn’t mean he is a good cop. A woman can be an excellent detective and be short and not that strong.

Do you know any cops? My cousin is one. A friend of mine was a detective. My friend’s husband is a cop.

I love how you quantify the level of illogical. There are women who think “handsome southern gentleman” (AKA Bill Clinton) would make a great president because handsome southern gentlemen are generally upstanding, moral citizens. You can explain any illogical idea to make it sound more logical, but unless you are judging the persons actions and personality, you are making an illogical choice.

I didn’t say our union employees are well paid – I said they get EQUAL pay. And they should. There are many job functions where men and women are doing the exact same thing and expected to produce the same amount. Gender should NOT play a role.

I’ve been on construction jobs where someone came over and complained that only one of the crew was working. I always had a logical reason – one was a fire guard, one was waiting for a permit for different work, it was unsafe for multiple people to be working at the same time at that function etc. From the outside, it always looks like “the big bad utility/transit/road crews etc” is taking advantage of the little people. Con Ed negotiates with their union just as the MTA does.

As to lower the height requirements – a good cop will you tell you that using strength is a LAST resort, not a first resort. Cops are given tools to contain situations and each person needs to tailor it to the right situation. Sometimes, that means pairing up a smaller person with a larger one and having a great combination of brain and brawn. Do you think cops go around roughhandling people all the time?

EDITED

So Kasha, are you going to review Sanhedrin 98b to look at the varying opinions on Moshiach? Did Moshiach come already and is not coming in the future? R’ Hillel says so. Everyone else disagrees. So…

Kasha, please see Sanhedrin 98b regarding Moshiach.

Kasha, if its indisputable, please explain the gemora I quoted above. R’ Hillel said that Moshiach ALREADY came and is not coming in the future.

OK, so why don’t men have women beaten by Beis Din if they refuse to wash their feet?

So when they conflict they actually agree?

Do you agree that lice does not come from eggs?

Wolf, I personally think that at the time Chazal said it, it was true. The general population was rather uneducated and illiterate, very few had decent educations. Women NEEDED to be with their children because there werent alternatives to nursing them. Women also married much younger and even during childhood had to work much harder. Sure, when a woman is only focused on birthing/raising/feeding her children with all the hardships that were around in those days, they didn’t have the time/energy/capacity to learn.

Nowadays, reality is different.