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It’s all their fault!
What, no personal responsibility?
Do you eat at McDonalds because they are all over the place and they advertise so much and after all, the non Jews do it and its accepted by Jews?
No? You controls yourselves? Hmm…
I’m tired of Jews blaming their own personal failings on others. Own up to what YOU do wrong and figure out how to help YOURSELF. You can’t change others but you can change yourself. Others may provide an easier path to sin, but you do the sin.
What non-Jewish women do is really irrelevant to what Jewish women do. I wish we could concetrate on the Jews, rather than bashing non-Jews for no reason.
The designers? Fair game.
I think I’ve said more than enough on this matter. You can go ahead and have the last word.
LOL mod. I like that you wrote that after your statement. I basically agree with you, but its the designers who are working to attract the men, not really the frum women.
Not that it makes clothing more tzanua, but its an important part of philosophy.
He is likely picking up the negative behaviors from playgroup and acting out on them.
What we do (my son is 2, so I’m not expereinced with older kids, but the concept should work) is that when he hits his little brother (9 months and it happened twice) is we do a modified time out.
I put him in the corner, sit down on the floor and we talk. I talk about hitting and how it hurts and how he doesn’t want to get hit. How we have to treat each other nicely. Then I also figure out what triggered it by asking questions. Did the baby take a toy you wanted? If he says yes, I’ll give him suggestions on what to do next time like say “Can I please have the toy?” I also make sure to make him verbalize WHAT he did wrong and to repeat the solution.
About potty training – are you giving him liquids close to bed? Also, wake him up before going to sleep so he uses the bathroom. He will be much less likely to have an accident.
First, do you spank or potch? If so, the hitting could be a behavior he learnt from you (I’m not saying it is, just posing the question).
Also, its important to teach him to deal with his feelings. Start helping him label his feelings (“I get frustrated when older brother gets to do things first” or “I get upset when younger brother takes my toy” or things like that). The more he can verbalize his frustrations, the less he will tend towards non-verbal communication (which hitting is).
Don’t discount the playgroup – my friend’s son just switched and a lot of his negative behavior went away. Does he like to go to playgroup? Does he want to avoid it?
I definitely second the alone time. Its really important for your kids to feel like they can be heard as individuals. That goes for all your kids, but this one especially.
Mod-80, to the women, its not about attracting other men. Its about whats’ in style and whats sold. Why would a yeshiva bachur wear a Tommy Hilfiger white shirt? Why pay more for the logo? Becuase they are trying to impress other men. Its the same concept, though womens fashion is a bit more complex.
Remember, these same women will dress to impress this way for a womens only function just as much as a wedding where they will see men. Men really aren’t a factor at all.
And if this really bothered men, they wouldn’t be marrying these women. Or discussing this before marriage. “Hot Chanis” are marrying men who obviously want their wives to look like that.
Most men don’t want to believe this, but most frum adult women dress to impress WOMEN not MEN.
Mosherose, then you agree with his scientific views as well?
Kasha, yes there are. But your chances of getting a good job are much higher with a degree. And those jobs not requiring a degree are shrinking as more and more people get degrees.
Its sort of like MBAs – at one point they were gold! Now, they are just expected and no big deal (at least at my company and many others I’ve heard about).
I know about COPE. More need to be available AND encouraged.
Kasha, I know. Lets leave it at that and take it for what its worth.
Kasha, I work for a company that hires many non-college educated workers. So I understand that there are jobs out there. However, many of those positions are much less flexible (work starts at 7 am and you cannot be late – try getting a minyan during parts of the year thats early enough for that, its very hard). Also, many are encouraged to go to college (they even pay for it) for you to move up through the company. As of now, promotions from union to management will only be allowed with a college degree.
Also, if people don’t go to College, why don’t we as a community support trade schools? There are many necessary trades (plumbing, electricians etc) where you can work shorter hours.
My BIL went to a Yeshiva that partnered with a Technical college and worked out ways for the boys to go to evening classes and have their talmudical classes count for humanities credits. His technical associates degree got him a good job (he then went to college to finish his bachelors while married).
I’m laughing at the idea of the pickets. Someone start it and lets see!
Kasha, I know the Tendler family very well.
University today is like high school of the past 50 years – in order to get most decent jobs (aside from cashier at Target), you need a degree. Or you need a trade – so then trade school.
There are very limited jobs for non-educated people. Its even worse if you don’t graduate from high school with a basic secular education.
Rav Moshe also allowed his daughter to marry one of the biggest rabbonim at YU.
In Teaneck, the cutoff is September 30th. I had a son on September 17th.
In the younger grades, sometimes kids aren’t emotionally mature enough to start. A lot of people have told me that their 4 year old wasn’t ready for school so they kept him back. I’ve been told that girls generally stay in their grades but boys often get held back.
My philosophy is to examine it based on the child. My niece was pushed ahead (she was 2 weeks past the cutoff) because she was ready for school. Each kid is different.
Well a woman’s place is in the home and a man’s place is in the Beis Medrash. So no one will eat 🙂
As a parent, if my child wanted to learn and I didn’t want them to, I would explain that they have to figure out:
1) How to support themselves (including paying for Beis Medrash and living expensese)
2) If they plan to get married, how are they going to support a wife and family? I would go over serious numbers with them – rent, food, utilities, tuition etc.
3) Discuss a compromise – like half day learning, half day college and offer to pay for both (if I could afford to) so that we are sort of both getting our way.
As a parent, its important for me to look out for my childrens long term goals. But I also need to be cognisant of their personal needs. But I do not need to pay for them.
ICOT, I respectfully disagree with you.
There is a reason we say “I believe” not “I know.”
I’ve learnt through just about all logical proofs of Torah Judaism and not one can really hold water. There is always room for speculation and doubt – that’s why there is bechirah. We choose to believe as a nation.
So yes, I believe the information passed down from my ancestors is true. I don’t believe they had a reason to lie. But I cannot prove it.
The western world is primarily comprised of Abrahamic religions.
Have the Mayans ever confirmed it? The Incans? The Native Americans? For the most part, they never even knew Jews existed until a few hundred years ago.
I think its more important to show where they said they agreen with Matan Torah. Silence does NOT mean acceptance.
This conversation makes more sense now that all the posts were up, not just the mods.
I’ve never heard of Buddhism and other non-Abrahamic religions agreeing to Matan Torah either. Silence does NOT mean acceptance. Many religeons were secluded from Western religions for a long time.
Is there anywhere that they proclaim Matan Torah was true?
Rabbi Miller’s statement was not that every person that ever existed anywhere in the world believed in Har Sinai. It was that no one ever denied it. No, I am willing to bet that B**dha never declared that Matan Torah was true.
Mod-80, that’s essentially the same thing and don’t worry, I beleive the Torah is divine.
You can’t prove the Torah is divine without a devils advocate, which requires questions which may appear to be apikorsus. That’s fine, but then I probably won’t participate in the proofs.
Are we really having a “Is Torah Divine” conversation?
Can I to play devil’s advocate? (meaning, will it be allowed)
It is not vadei treif, but the hechsher is considered unreliable
I agree with that. But not treif per se. Its also more political than anything else.
No one I know (who calls themself observant) actually eats HN. It was just a topic of curiosity to me.
Mod-80,
All my research on the subject lately (including talking to some rabbonim) concludes that the shechita is technically kosher shechita but is definitely not glatt. Almost noone orthodox holds by that hechsher though for normal usage. I don’t think anyone defines it as 100% treif.
Glatt today is not really glatt. Its a misnomer. I think Beis Yosef is actually Glatt?
ch123, Hebrew National uses shechita and is kosher, but its not glatt . Basically, most people who keep strictly kosher/glatt kosher don’t eat it, but its not treif.
I like their ads, “No ifs, ands or butts”
Mod,
To extrapolate a bit, I was always told you could extend a timer (obviously mechanical) to keep the status quo, but couldn’t change it to lessen the status quo. That would make sense with what you are saying.
Klaz, my Rav said mixed swimming was mutar, but the clothing was not. See my post above.
In case anyone thinks this is just a MO thing, my moderately Yeshivish sister holds by this too.
I have no idea what the stats are, but I am not sure why you assume those numbers.
The way I understand it, is that a MO person who goes off the derech may be more likely to maintain some Jewish roots. A yeshivish or chassidish person who goes OTD usually chucks it all. Anecdotal of course.
In a year above me in another school, I know of 1 person who married a non Jew.
Mods,
I usually realize something will be deleted. But more because you err on the side of caution than I think my posts are disrespectful. I don’t think you are usually wrong.
Where did you get the 10% stat? 10% of the MO people I know didn’t go off the derech, far from it. I personally know more right wing people who went OTD than MO, but I realize that means nothing.
Both schools had approximately 80 girls per grade. My sisters year may have been closer to 100, but I’m pretty sure not over.
Also, I hear that boys go OTD at a higher frequency than girls, and these were all girls schools.
LOL Wolf.
I agree with Philosopher also.
A woman’s obligation to keep hilchos tznius is not dependant on what a man thinks/feels.
My school was MO. I’m not 100% sure about all the girls in the grade but I think one went OTD. One was never frum to begin wtih.
I know a few from my year at the local Bais Yaakov (Yeshivish) who went OTD.
My sisters year in Bais Yaakov (Yeshivish), I think 4 girls went OTD.
MR, according to my Rav, its not mixed swimming thats an issue its the bathing suits. So, if a woman can dress in a bathing suit around her husband (and I’m pretty sure she can), then swimming with him privately is a non-issue.
WIY, there certainly is a percentage of people looking to excuse breaking halacha. But primarily, the people I know who went OTD did so because they didn’t find the evidence sufficient to believe.
You are also neglecting the Orthopraxz movement where people stay outwardly religious because they have too much to lose (wife, family etc).
I think people like to say things like “OTD just want to fulfill taivos” but for a large percentage that just isn’t true. I think it makes us feel better because it removes doubt that the people who no longer believe (as opposed to those looking for excuses) are correct. I think its an insecurity thing.
I was a very mature 12 year old (my mother gave me a credit card in my name at age 9 LOL). As mature as I was, I did NOT fully grasp all the long term effects of what I was doing.
All it sounds is like you are blaming kids and not understanding where they are coming from. If a kid starts going OTD at age 9, does that make it any better?
I think the reason that kids start in their teenage years is that they are beginning to learn more in depth and develop their sense of self much more than at age 8.
Does it really matter if they are halachically obligated in mitzvos or not? An 11 year old breaking halacha on purpose is tragic IMO and worse than a 15 year old. Maybe not in the technical halachic sense, but a young child that rebels often has much more problems than a 14 year old who doesn’t see the logic and beauty of Torah.
In addition some OTD teens have led a pretty okay life. Of course, nobody has every single wish they want in life, but it was average. Then they go nitpicking on every little detail that wasn’t too their liking.
You call it details, they call it searching for truth. A friend of mine went OTD. She looked to find truth in Torah Judaism and didn’t. She disagreed with the proofs. Can you imagine keeping the details of things like borer if you don’t believe?
There is a whole group out there that call themselves “orthoprax” – they are generally married with kids and stuck. They love their spouses, families etc but they don’t believe. It makes a very resentful situtation.
You say nitpicking details, they call it the essence of truth.
Philosopher, I don’t know the last time you hung out with 12 year old girls or 13 year old boys, but they are not mature (as a general rule). The situation today is different from when boys and girls married much younger. People matured faster due to life experience.
I understand that someone past Bar/Bat mitzvah is responsible for their halachic obligations, but that doesn’t mean they are mature. It also doesn’t mean they have the ability to stand up to peer pressure or get the right answers to their questions.
I think you are simplifying this.
Max well, you think a Bar Mitzvah kid is an adult? So, you would have no problem with your 13 year old son getting married?
Rebbitzen, I understood their reasoning, but I found it funny. Especially because I went to a school where a lot of the girls were dating in 9-11 grades and were very much discouraged, but by 12th grade, weren’t.
We had a senior Kallah and another engagement right after HS ended. This is a MO school and we were ahead of my local Bais Yaakov HAHA!
Oomis, thats the problem – you were out taking a walk! Women should only be in the home and go out once or twice a month.
Philosopher, there are compelling arguments for the divinity of the Torah, but there are also compelling arguments against.
If you are talking about Eisav soneih yaakov, its actually Yishmael in this day and age.
I’m not sure what your #2 means – because we still follow laws they are applicable? There are other religions that still follow their laws and customs, many years later.
The amish have even lower rates.
To be honest, those are the weakest “logical” proofs I’ve ever heard.
Routine.
We do dinner, bath, teeth, shema/songs (we do shema, hamalach, adon olem), book(s) and then our final good night song.
I often nurse the baby while doing bedtime.
How is it weak?
Here is a small example. When talking about the divinity of TSBP he mentions that the Torah mentions “like I’ve told you” referencing another source. He makes a huge leap to say “well that proves TSBP is divine.”
While I agree it gives substance to the fact that there is another source given, it in no way shape or form proves that TSBP is divine.
There were plenty of examples in the book that made me think it weak.
Also, we rely on the unbroken mesorah chain to explain away a lot of potential problems. However, if you read Nechemiah, it does talk about a break in Mesorah and a new scroll being found. Yes, mefarshim explain this, but its also easy to say “well, the general population did not have 100% unbroken mesorah.”
I’ve never heard 100% proof of the Torah. I believe in the Torah and believe that it has been passed down from generation to generation and is divine. But that takes a leap of faith. I’m ok with that.
One reason I think it appears that more RW kids go OTD is that when they do wrong things, its harder to maintain a connection to the community. Wearing jeans is already considered an afront to RW society.
In MO society, its easier to relax on halacha without going completely OTD as you will still be able to stay within society without being ostracized.
It has its benefits and negatives on both sides. I prefer the latter.
Philosopher, people often have many redeeming qualities, even if they went OTD. You don’t have to respect THAT they went OTD, but just because someone doesn’t keep shabbos or kosher, doesn’t mean they aren’t makpid on chessed or something else.
I’ve read Beyond a Reasonable Doubt by Rabbi Shmeul Waldman and found it weak.
I was a very inquisitive child and I was always plagued with questions. I had a really tough 8th grade year where I had a teacher who made up halacha and denied things that were written in the gemara. It didn’t help that two of the girls in my class were the grandchildren of a prominent MO Rabbi that my teacher didn’t agree with (or rather, her husband didn’t agree with – she never had opinions of her own).
It took 4 years in my great MO high school to really straighten out my thoughts. She did a lot of damage.
I think people also neglect the group of people who just don’t believe. They look for logical proof of the Torah and don’t find it, even when questioning some of the right sources. There is an element of faith in Judaism (hence all the ani maamins) and you can’t logic away faith.
Here are some tips I picked up via experience :-/ (and some from others experiences)
1) Make sure to calm down.
2) When stopping at a stop sign, make sure to fully stop, not just a rolling stop. You should feel the car jerk back slightly to a complete stop.
3) On a street with no yellow lines, look at the directions of the cars parked to double check that its not a one way. Then make sure to slightly hug the correct side of the road.
4) Make sure your driving instructor is wearing his/her seatbelt before driving, but be careful how you ask them to put it on. They can be testy.
5) Don’t drive too slow or they will ask you to speed up LOL.
I took the test at Redhook if thats of any use to you.
Mosherose, mixed swimming with your spouse is assur? I don’t follow that logic. He mentioned he had a private pool.
Have you ever eaten an airline meal? Its sealed with hashgacha labels.
Mosherose, if that were true, please explain why we Jewish men don’t dress the way they did in the desert.