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There are bathing suits that are 100% tzanua, made from bathing suit material.
Would the front yard be considered “chatzer”? Then its totally normal (and permissible) for women to be out there.
If its for a first date, why not postpone it until after Tisha Bav?
In my MO shul, the men who have no reason to shave (the ones who don’t work in high powered law firms and such) don’t shave.
Sof, I’m aware of what the shulchan aruch says regarding dressing.
If the problem is the little boys, then little boys shouldn’t be allowed at the pool. Not that the woman should dress in more clothing at the pool.
Perhaps the problem is more about making everything assur. If its muttar, it should be up to the individual woman to decide. It shouldn’t be large groups of people screaming that it shouldn’t be done.
Unfortunately, this 100% affects young women. Everything is forbidden to them, even if its allowed. When everything is assur, nothing really matters.
Think I’m wrong? When I was younger, long skirts were assured, even though they are 100% muttar. So women started wearing shorter skirts. And now, women aren’t covering their knees. If people would stop concentrating on assuring the muttar, maybe people would follow basic halacha.
GAW, I’ve seen plenty of women tanning and I personally haven’t witnessed pritzus. But then again, I’m not 100% sure of the halachos regarding pisuk raglayim. Can you expand?
Listen, I understand you think its not “proper” but its not a violation of halacha. Lets learn to pick our battles.
Who are they required to cover for if its just women and little boys?
Many women cover their hair no matter who is around them. But women are not required to be tzanua in front of other women.
I don’t understand why the women would have to be covered.
What is wrong with tanning if there is a proper fence seperating the men from women?
Most housing in Philly is expensive. But beautiful. Bala Cynwyd has the most amazing old homes on nice size plots of land.
Wolf,
Why not sell the megillah case? Or Donate it to a shul?
If you want to feel like what you spend is excessive, there is a blog called pennilessparenting – its a woman in Israel who spends really, really little to survive. I find it fascinating.
Makes me feel really spoiled.
Wolf, if you help out at home, then you are SURELY not showing her enough kavod. It is undermining her obligations to cleaning. Make sure to never lift a finger and you’ll do fine 🙂
Teach your children to use devices like this properly (and I’m assuming the “kids” with these are more likely 18+ because who gives a 14 year old an ipod touch?), get a proper filter and constantly keep the lines of communication open.
Wolf, there are ways to make your house the most ostentacious even if the houses all look exactly alike. Unless you stipulate that all landscaping and exterior decorations have to be 100% the same.
Then people will claim which number is better LOL.
Someone has to have the most ostentatious house in the neighborhood.
I don’t think the discussion about “which is a more Torahdig home” is really applicable.
Men in Kollel fulfill different mitzvot than those who work. Their homes can be just as Toradig as each other, depending on how they and their wives establish their homes.
I do not agree that a full time worker has a chance to grow to a higher madreiga. The madreiga a person can reach is based on themselves and how they approach life.
Teaneck has a sort of Kehilla fund called NNJKIDS. This year it gave approximately $200/kid to each school.
I don’t have any kids in school yet, but all the local schools range from:
$14,000-$17,000 per student for grades K-8
Preschool is around $10,000+
MO Schools for boys and girls
Scholarships given on a need basis. Scholarships phase out if you earn $175,000 or more
Teaneck, NJ
I have never seen a demographic study done showing Jews pay higher taxes. If I had to guess, it would be white, single males that pay most taxes.
Actually, a short stop and being rearended is no fault to the front driver. The rear driver has the responsibility to avoid the accident and should be further back. Once hit, if the person has whiplash, why shouldn’t they sue? Its 100% legal.
We may not have to be extra vigilant with government services, but we do to avoid chillul hashem. And right now this system IS causing one. But lets forget about that for a moment – lets look at how its permeating the thought process within our communities. I was just talking to a woman who told me she was sending her kids to summer camp. They can’t afford it, but since they can’t pay full tuition for their kids anyway, why not send the kids to camp and just pay the school less? The school will allow it. Since when do we have to pay for our neighbors luxuries? Its a TERRIBLE attitude. This was a stay at home mom so its not like she needed her kids in camp.
Remember, there are also services (like section 8) that have limited allowances. Sometimes, you need to wait a long time to get them because others are utilizing them. You may be keeping a truly poor family out of housing because you WANT to take it. I would rather the services go to the truly poor, then someone who just wants it to support a certain type of lifestyle.
Welfare programs were designed to help people get back on their feet, not play the game as long as they can. If financial planners utilize these services to help people “plan” it may be legal, but still immoral.
As for tuition in Lakewood – what I heard is there are two rates. Kollel families get a modest break ($500/child or so). Working parents get the regular rate. I never asked my cousin with 11 kids what she pays, but considering her husband is learning in Kollel still and she is the sole breadwinner, I highly doubt she is paying $50,000/year in tuition.
myfriend, finding a situation abhorrant (choosing to rely on government services rather than getting a job) does not make someone an anti-semite. Especially since they don’t only hate this behavior in Jews – they hate it in all segments of society. Please do not call someone an anti-semite unless they exhibit anti-semitic behavior as it dilutes the real claims of anti-semitism. Think of the boy who cried wolf.
Please cite where you get that information. Please show me that the percentage of Jews on government services is less than the overall population. Please show me how we pay more taxes – we generally have more children and give to charitable organizations, hence we lower our tax rates.
Just because you are “entitled” to a service, doesn’t mean you should take it. Do you do that with Judaism also? You never look into the spirit of the law or try to go lefnim meshuras hadin? Do you never try to avoid a leniency, even though its technically ok?
They don’t support other people playing the system. They just don’t like the way Jews have systematically set up a system to allow this.
One person actually told me that they prefer many of the illegal immigrants to people who leech off of government services because many illegal immigrants work really hard and the leechers contribute very little.
I didn’t compare taking services to lying, cheating or stealing. I was referencing the point about “Well non Jews do it, so we can too.”
I am not holier than thou. I am trying to show people that living off government services is bad for society at large. What is bad for society at large is bad for the Jews.
And yes, I think its immoral to put yourself in position to need government services. You don’t have to agree, but that doesn’t make me holier than thou.
I wonder if you realize what a chillul hashem it is when non Jews discover that large percentages of Jews put themselves in situations to qualify for government services. I’ve had to defend this to non-Jews in the past. Its not pleasant.
Dr. Pepper – kol hakavod to your brother and sister in law. They are doing it the proper way and sacrificing for Torah. Do they have school aged children? Do they know how they are going to deal with that?
Speaktruth, we pay taxes for many things we don’t use. We also get lots of benefits for things we do use, disproportionately to what we pay. That’s the way a tax system works. Social security is a different ball of wax.
“besides, if you ask me, i would much rather give “charity” to kollel families than others. ”
I hate when people say this. Others take advatage of the system, so we should? When others lie, cheat and steal, shouldn’t we also? Is that the type of Judaism we are running nowadays? No wonder Moshiach isn’t here.
So you want someone to be the only fool and stop taking money from the goverment to reduce goverment spending?
Actually, the fools are those who stay on services. They are not helping out the overall country and just assisting in putting us further behind. Whatever happened to “Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country.” Learning Torah is a wonderful thing. It is not exclusive to Kollel society. Sacrificing for Torah is a wonderful thing. Getting government services is not really sacrificing for Torah.
I’m guessing those of you who are making comments about taxes and foodstamps, don’t really understand how our tax system works or what food stamps are.
There is no possible debate that foodstamps and other programs are charity. The American government established these systems to help feed and shelter people who cannot afford it. It is 100% charity!
If you are sacrificing to be in Kollel, but on these programs, you are not really sacrificing – you are relying on the tzedaka of the American public.
Philosopher, your comments are really ironic “Middle classes gets squeezed so lets keep people on social services.” Um, that’s backwards. REDUCE government spending (and social programs is just one area) and taxes will go down. The money has to come from somewhere.
I would really like to see a Kollel couple who can make it on a teachers salary while taking no government benefits. Without side jobs. At least when pushing Kollel teachers should be realistic.
…mine and the Rambam’s.
OK, this has been fun. I’m off to sleep!
And it still doesn’t prove its charitable. It just proves that some schools automatically assume parents can’t afford tuition above a certain amount.
I haven’t heard of automatic discounts for tuition. What schools offer this?
Places like Costco offer bulk discounts because they get a reduced rate from the manufacturer for guaranteeing larger sales.
With schools, The cost of tuition is calculated using the average cost per student. Its not incremenetal – its average out over the student body.
2 in full school on in preschool. I don’t know what preschool costs.
A break in tuition (for anyone) IS a form of charity. Who do you think pays the difference in cost to run the school vs what someone is paying? Either donors or the other parents in the school.
Lets assume the cheapest school is $3,000/child. At 6 kids that’s still $18,000. Unless you take a break – which is another form of charity.
How much does the least expensive school cost? (without tuition breaks)
She has 3. Remember, that’s almost $15,000 in AFTER TAX money.If you make $45,000/year, that’s 1/3 of your pre-tax salary.
Missme, my sister lives in Lakewood and pays $4800/child. I wish MO schools were $4,000 – try $15,000!
If they pay less, its because they get tuition breaks, which is another form of charity.
missme, I said with children. Please tell me how you can pay tuition while living on one teacher salary. See my numbers earlier in this thread.
sms, I was referencing the teacher who could make it on one salary. At least in the US, with children, its impossible to do without tzedaka. Food stamps is charity from the American public. Living in Kollel may mean sacrificing, but it also means relying on the charity of others (like gemachs, reduced tuition, medicaid, foodstamps). [HUD is charitable housing credits]
I for one could not live with my family taking charity when one of us has the means to go out and get a job to feed us.
outoftown, its not far to Deal and there are people who send their kids there.
You can also check out Cherry Hill – I know there is a small community there but I don’t know what houses cost.
Sms, utilizing food stamps, HUD and gemachs means living your life off the charity of others. That’s not supporting yourself off of one income. If you do side jobs, that’s additional work (hishtadlus) not just relying on Hashem. Hashem helps those who help themselves.
That is strange then.
I generally don’t shop in small stores because I don’t like their return policies. Except for my local knitting store. I go there because they are super helpful with my projects.
Outoftownjew – You would have to send your boys to Deal for that.
Oh I misread that smart. Wolfs answer is good 🙂
Smart, credit card companies take a cut of the amount charged. If the robe is on sale, they are getting less profit from it, and allowing credit card charges means that you are cutting into their small margin of profit.
Smart, thats more of a small business thing than anything else.
You can get a house in Lakewood for under $300,000.
Derech,
$30,000/year in Israel is a relatively well paying job.
Also, in Israel you don’t have to worry about tuition (for the most part) and there are plenty of social programs built into the tax base, so people with large families pay very little.
Does a teacher make $30,000/year in Israel?
GAW, I still don’t think it can be done. Lets ignore tuition for a moment.
How much does a stenographer earn part time? Lets say $40,000. After taxes, lets say $36,000. With six kids – still assume $100/pp/per month. That’s $800/month food. Health insurance (if they even qualify at part time) is at least $500/month. Housing for 8 people $1500/month.
That’s already $33,600 and you haven’t included so many other expenses. Is it really feasible with no tzedaka and no government services? I want to see the person who actually says yes. And I want to see their finances.
No one with older kids survives solely on a teachers salary without taking some form of charity or government benefits. Unless they starve their children and live in a hovel.
Also, once you have kids, its a lot harder to be in Kollel. If the mother is working, then you need daycare. If the kids are in real school, you pay tuition.
Anyone who says otherwise is lying. If they have side jobs, they are not living JUST on the teachers salary.
Assuming a low tuition rate of $4,000/child with six children (well below average) that is $24,000 in tuition in after tax money alone.
If you squeeze your six kids into a tiny apartment, it still is probably $1,000/month.
Food (even cheap food) is at least $800/month ($100 per person).
That’s $45,600 in after tax dollars and you haven’t even touched many other expenses.
I’m a fan of Doctor Sears. I look at his stuff online a lot http://www.askdrsears.com/
My grandparents gave me the gift of a college education, which I can use to help support my family, donate to tzedaka and do many other great things with. [They also gave me a great role model of what a loving, happy couple should be, since my father died at a young age]
Why not make sure to get along time with each of them?
So, sunday morning you take the older one to a lake and sit and talk a little bit. Sunday evening you take the younger one to a nearby park.
Or even just doing an errand together, going to the backyard, doing laundry. You can give them each a chore to do with you to help out (even if it ends up taking more time). DOn’t pick something noisy like vacuuming though.
Wolf, remember that MR is a young guy in his 20s who frummed out and is not married. Not a good dose for common sense.
LOL BPTotty. Thats more of a MR response!
TO answer, no you don’t. But all the “mixed” couples I’ve known over the years (including my own marriage) generally end up settling somewhere in the middle.