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Helpful, if the husband and wife were swimming together in a private setting, why would that be a problem?
As an aside, the modest bathing suits that are sold (100% tzanua) do not get tight when wet due to the material they are made of.
When my Rav says muttar and someone says assur, its a chumra for me. So my statement stands.
And there are always people who want to pile chumras on others when their rabbonim say otherwise. It goes both ways.
basmelech, why should sheitels be assured? So that you can follow the “fashion” trend? If you feel that sheitels are wrong, don’t wear them. But for those that follow rabbonim who allow sheitels, let them be.
What I was always taught is that you cover hair because its erva. The hair has to be covered and can even be covered with a sheitel made of your own hair.
FWIW, I don’t own a sheitel.
OK Lets discuss a long term study done on children who were spanked. Here are some quotes from an article written on it (I would post a link but YWN generally doesn’t allow it):
“But in a new study published in Pediatrics, researchers at Tulane University provide the strongest evidence yet that children’s short-term response to spanking may make them act out more in the long run. Of the nearly 2,500 youngsters in the study, those who were spanked more frequently at age 3 were much more likely to be aggressive by age 5.”
and
“The association remained even after her team accounted for varying levels of natural aggression in children, suggesting, she says, that “it’s not just that children who are more aggressive are more likely to be spanked.” “
and
“Corporal punishment instills fear rather than understanding. Even if children stop tantrums when spanked, that doesn’t mean they get why they shouldn’t have been acting up in the first place. What’s more, spanking sets a bad example, teaching children that aggressive behavior is a solution to their parents’ problems. “
Bomb, I understand why the task was the wife’s task. But if the situation would occur, would you ask Beis Din to beat her? [and I am not sure why you wouldn’t call what Beis Din does a beating]
I want my children to learn to respect me out of love, not fear. I do not want them to resent me for hitting them. I can’t even wrap my head around the idea that a parent would hit their child out of “love.”
We are taught not to trust ourselves until we die. How do you know that at the moment you are spanking for the wrong reason? Sometimes, emotion clouds our judgements.
And you may not resent your grandfather. But I have a few friends that DO resent their parents and have very little to do with them. I want a relationship with my children as they grow up. I don’t understand why I would take that risk to possible alienate them, especially when studies show that spanking is not the ideal path. I am not trying to be thier friend, but I am trying to be a stellar role model on how they behave – and violence is something I want to teach them to abhor.
however i would wager that if oomis gave you an example you would tell her she was wrong and proceed to suggest another method that may or may not have worked.
That’s true. There is always another method. That’s why I don’t understand why someone would choose it. I have a lot of respect for Oomis and I am sure she did a fantastic job raising her kids. I am NOT suprised that her kids won’t hit their own kids though.
Parenting is rarely about short term goals. The goal of parenting is to help them become independant, productive members of society within a halachic framework. We want them to UNDERSTAND why thier behavior is wrong and stop themselves. Otherwise, the minute we leave the room, our influence becomes ineffective.
I am not sure what specifically makes my arguments “childish.” Corporeal punishment is not ideal in any way shape or form and should not be used if other methods will. And there are always other methods.
Helpful, would you ask Beis Din to beat your wife if she refused to wash your feet? I know there was one posek who said you were allowed to actually strike your wife yourself…I guess I’m confusing the Rambam with him.
What I don’t understand is why anyone would spank their kids if its not necessary. And no one has given me a case where it IS necessary. There are many effective methods that work. Why risk your child resenting you for spanking them?
Helpful, I don’t give out the name of my personal Rav on here. I don’t need to prove anything to you. I know it, and that’s fine with me.
LOL Mod80, I know the studies. However, that’s the average American. I would say the average frum person who has a TV in their house, watches less TV than 2 hours a day.
Mod-80, as opposed to all the brilliant studies quoted before in this thread?
Helpful, I see no reason to get rid of it. My Rav has no problem with me having a TV and watching proper programming.
Helpful,
The Rambam allows beating your wife under certain conditions. Would you beat your wife?
Oomis, it has to happen sometimes LOL.
Not if I don’t watch objectionable shows.
Bomb,
Discipline is about teaching your child how to behave properly. If my child makes a mess, they have to clean up (with my help, to the best of their ability at that age). That helps them learn that we keep things clean as best we can. And yes, I can reason with my 2.5 year old.
He also knows that if he wants certain priveleges (like swimming in the pool or watching Mickey Mouse) he needs to behave. And he does.
He was having some trouble with hitting the baby. We realized it happened when the baby was playing with a toy that he wanted. We taught him how to verbalize his feelings to us and how to distract the baby with another toy so that he can enjoy the toy he wants. We also taught him that the baby has the right to keep the toy if he chooses. Is my 2.5 year old perfect? No, but we reinforce this. AND IT WORKS.
As I’ve said, I’ve never used a harness. I would rather use a harness to help teach my son (especially if I lived in a place like Brooklyn where the streets are much busier and kidnapping is more likely). Its not that you are pulling your child around – you are helping them develop boudnaries. Its an extra safety precaution. I would much rather do that then hit my child. As for dogs – people don’t hit dogs either. It always causes the dog negative behavior, not positive.
And the black room sounds awful too. I don’t endorse that.
I was never spanked. I’ve spoken to plenty of my friends who were and most were traumatized in some way. Most, not all. Is that a risk I want to take? No, especially when there are so many other options.
No one has given me an example where hitting was the only option.
[For those who are interested, the most successful thing we’ve done with my son is modified time outs. We go to the corner with him and talk about what he did wrong, what he should do in the future etc. I make him verbalize what he did wrong to his ability, so at 20 months or so he could just say “hit” and at 30 months now he can say “I hit the baby” or whatever it is. We also teach him words like “upset” and “mad” and “frustrated” and “sad” so he can talk about his feelings. This has minimized outbursts.]
I should ammend that – when I do a lot of housework (like folding laundry, sewing, dusting in the bedroom stuff like that), I do watch 2 hours. While going about my work. It entertains me.
I know a lot of people with TVs in their house and most do NOT watch 2 hours a night. At least once they have kids.
Maybe 2 hours on a sunday afternoon or something. Or a sick day. Or a season finale.
I watched quite a few episodes of House Hunters about first time homebuyers before we bought our house. It was very informative.
And who watches 2 hours of TV a night?
Our current schedule:
Up at 5, everyone ready for the day at 7. Leave – husband drops kids at daycare and goes to work, I go to the bus to work. Husband picks the kids up and we all meet back at the house at 6 pm. Make dinner, eat dinner, bath, bedtime. Its 8:30. Clean up from dinner, do some household chores, shower. Its almost 10 pm. Most nights no TV, some nights TV.
Seriously, who has 2 hours a day to watch TV?
Bomb, I just saw your post.
Of course I discipline my child. And I teach him right from wrong. I let him experiment with his boundaries in safe situations to see if he can handle it. Then we continue on to more complex situations and see if he listens. My son has no problem running into the street at 2.5. He also understands when we get to busy streets he has to hold my hand. And that crossing the street he must hold hands.
People equate not hitting your child with not disciplining your child which is patently false. I discipline, I just don’t hit.
You need to teach your children responsibility within their means. As a parent you need to help them grow. If they aren’t ready for certain tasks, why would you force them into those situations and then hit them for it?
If a child is misbehaving, its more important to look at WHY they are misbehaving and what triggered it. You can usually figure out a reason (tired/hungry/testing limits) and act accordingly.
Please give me an example of a time you need to hit where other methods of discipline wouldn’t work.
OK GAW, so big party for girls at 12.5! (I forgot about that – is slavery at 12 or 12.5?)
According to my rav, a man and woman may be in the same body of water together, provided they are both dressed appropriately.
Since a husband is allowed to see his wife dressed in non-tzanua clothing, wouldn’t it follow that he is allowed to swim with her?
Oomis, you may have chose that method, but it doesn’t NEED that method. There are plenty of other ways around that.
Maxwell, poskim also allow hitting your wife (or having Beis Din do it). Are you saying we should be doing that as well?
I think its pretty significant for a girl that at her Bat Mitzvah her father can no longer sell her into slavery or marry her off without her consent.
I don’t know about anyone else here, but I don’t pasken halacha. I don’t look for heterim. I ask my Rav. As to if he shops around? I don’t think so, but I haven’t ask him how he comes to his conclusions.
Philosopher, the minute you move the Bar Mitzvah away from a shul setting, you are saying “This is not only about the mitzvah.” The symbol of Bar Mitzvah is laining, something that happens in a shul setting.
A wedding can be anywhere – there is no typical location for a wedding (at least, of real significance). So you need a location. And you need a seudah. And you need to be sameach chatan vkallah. Plenty of good reasons to have it in a hall where your family and friends can join you in this mitzvah. Please tell me how that compares to a Bar Mitzvah.
If you want to play the tznius aspect, then any event which focuses on women (including graduations) would be banned.
And you can’t control your daughters feelings. You may try to raise them a certain way and they may be jealous anyway. I didn’t grow up with brothers, so it didn’t really affect me.
Says who, if I don’t approve of anything for my son to watch, he won’t watch. Its that simple.
I can’t think of a single situation that cannot be dealt with and that needs a spank. Can someone name me one?
Says who, my son watches “The Mickey Mouse Clubhouse” and I challenge you to find me one thing that is wrong with it.
Chayala, you don’t have to strike your child to discipline them. If you withold discipline you are harming your child.
Thanks Mod.
Says who, if you are going to quote me, please indicate that you added the quotation marks for your own emphasis.
fixed
Each parent decides what risks to take with their children. I am not sure what you are referencing, so please come out and say it.
Its not about becoming boys – I think boys would not want to be girls and girls would not want to be boys if they really understood what it meant to each of them.
It about making a statement to girls that their coming of age isn’t significant when you throw a big bash for the boys that is not connected to the mitzvah. Their coming of age is just as significant as boys, but they have different obligations.
If you are going to throw a large party for a boy, especially when its not relating to the mitzvah you ARE sending the message to her that she is less significant.
🙂
Mod-80, I want my kids to respect my authority, not fear my authority. I was raised with the same principle.
Chutzpah doesn’t need a spank. Its often the kids who get spanked the most who shouldn’t be.
I’ve heard many people who say “Oh I wait to calm down until I spank” which means that if the child is old enough to understand delayed consequences, there is no reason to spank as there are many other forms of discipline that will work. And if you wait but they can’t understand delayed discipline, then there is surely no reason to spank. If you spank right away, its often more a temper tantrum on the parents part than anything else.
Mod-80, for a boy its more visible in terms of participating in a minyan and such. Thats why it should be a shul focused celebration, not a hall celebration. There is no need to have a fancy hall celebration for a bar mitzvah and THAT sends the wrong message IMO.
Mod-80, its true each relationship is different. But what it does teach them is that whoever is “in charge” can hit those below him. So when they take care of their siblings, they are the authority figure. Or when a teacher hits them its ok because the teacher is the authority figure. It doesn’t actually teach the kids how to behave properly.
Why does a boy need a lavish party? I’m not talking about celebrating a boys bar mitzvah – celebrate him getting called to the Torah and taking on his Torah obligations.
But a party in a hall? With music and dancing? Whats different between a girl and a boy with that? Neither are necessary. Neither are actually a celebration of the mitzvah aspect. They are both JUST parties.
Which is why I think neither should have a catered party in a hall. I think it sends the wrong message to everyone.
Philosopher, the problem with celebrating boys bar mitzvahs much more lavishly than girls is it makes many girls feel like second class citizens. At a time when girls are reaching an age of becoming who they are (as are boys), its hard to see fact from fiction.
Why does a bar mitzvah boy need a nice hall and a girl gets a meal in her house? Why does the boy get to invite all his friends and family and the girl doesn’t? Why does it feel like Judaism is all about men and women have to stay at home?
Teenage girls are searching for meaning in life and making a lavish affair for your sons and not for your daughters will send them the message they aren’t important. I’ve spoken to enough struggling teenage girls to know this is true.
When I make Bar Mitzvahs (I have no daughters yet so I don’t know what I would do with them), I want to concetrate on the shul setting and the mitzvah. Not on the party. I want to send the right message to my sons that its the mitzvah they should be celebrating not the party.
BP Totty, I don’t plan to spank them then either. I will definitely find ways to teach them and discipline them, but not at the risk of abusing them.
What happens when they hit their younger siblings? Why is it ok for you to hit them, but not for them to hit you?
My sister doesn’t hit her kids either and they are 3, 6 and 8.
Shlomoe, I don’t personally use a harness for my son because he listens. I would prefer to harness my child to help ensure their safety while giving them freedom to explore than to hit them.
My oldest is 2.5 and I have never hit him.
Discipline is NOT about “punishment” – its about teaching your children how to behave and giving them the skills to succeed. Age appropriately.
There is NEVER a reason to strike a child.
Groan squeak, groan.
Most of the Bat Mitzvah’s I’ve attended in the last 10-15 years have been all girls and women. No men allowed.
LOL Telegrok.
LOL Wolf.
What did the potch teach him? That its ok to hit others to get them to do what you want. That is not a lesson I want my sons (or daughters if I have them) to ever learn.
If a child cannot walk safely in the street, they shouldn’t be walking in the street without being safely held in some manner.
Would you use this same advice for a husband to use on his wife?
I never think its ok to hit your child in any way shape or form. That is a form of child abuse.
With a child who can’t understand not to go run into the street, you don’t allow them a chance to run in the street. Either they stay in a stroller or get worn in a carrier or wear a harness. Its not a punishment, its an affect. If they can’t listen, they can’t be placed in a situation where you are setting them up to fail.
And soap in the mouth is DANGEROUS. I can’t imagine anyone subjecting thier poor child to soap.
philosopher, I didn’t catch that tone, so its fine 🙂
I’m not sure I agree with you. After all, for a bar mitzvah, you get a new pair of tefillin! That’s uber expensive. And a kiddush in shul (at least our shul – there are a lot of people) is not cheap.
My preference is to take the family to Israel and celebrate there. I think there is something truly meaningful about celebrating your acceptance of mitzvos in Israel. That isn’t cheap either.
Also, I don’t think kids have a true concept of money. They have a concept of fancy and flashy vs plain and simple. I think my mother instilled proper values in me from the time I was little and it stuck. (My bat mitzvah was lavish but that’s really for a different reason)
True, if you spend lavishly on everything else and serve 2 crackers and a piece of herring at shul for a bar mitzvah, it sends mixed messages. But if you take family vacations for the purpose of uniting the family and express that to your kids all along and then make them a nice, simple Bar Mitzvah, they will understand.
I think if you have a name that is unpronouncable in the local culture (for the most part, that means any CH sounds), you should provide an easier to pronounce nickname or alternative.
Yerachmiel could go by Yera.
I have plenty coworkers (mainly Indian) who choose an easier to pronounce name because theirs are really difficult.
OK Philosopher, I hear what you are saying. I need to think on whether or not I agree.
We are redoing our kitchen soon. My plan is to do it with solid wood cabinets, granite counters, 2 dishwashers etc. We can afford to do it and it will be a major quality of life change for us. Every day I spend about 30-45 minutes doing dishes (we don’t use disposable much). Our kitchen is hard to cook in, hard to keep kosher in and really dangerous. I want to get granite so my sister will be willing to join us on Pesach (they don’t kasher laminate). Its a worthwhile investment to me because day in and day out the kitchen will make a major change.
Upgrading a Bar Mitzvah to having a fancy feast? Fleeting. As in, right then.
Its important to stress the importance of the Bar Mitzvah (and even Bat Mitzvah) to your kids properly. Its a coming of age event for all kids – whether or not you celebrate it. The point is that as parents you have to teach your kids what that birthday means, what it means practically, spiritually etc.
Philosopher, I disagree.
What does a fancier meal mean? More money. It doesn’t mean more respectful. We should be focusing on the MITZVAH aspect (which is what I think R’ Moshe was talking about). What’s the mitzvah? Being part of a minyan, reading from the Torah etc.
I don’t think its wise to spend money on a one time affair. I think it makes more sense to invest in more lasting things – a nicer house that you use all the time, music lessons (that can help with parnassa!) etc is more worth while than a fancy meal.
I have a bunch of bonds from my Bas Mitzvah. Eventually…
I’m half Yekke!
Logan was one of the few names my husband and I could agree on. We debated on Michael but there are too many Michaels where we live.
LOL its a joke. I don’t have an english name and people pronounce it correctly.
However, I always hated having one name, so I made sure my kids have two hebrew AND two english names so they have choices.
If you are interested they are:
Meir Pinchas = Logan Paul
Akiva Dan = Cody Daniel
We call them Logan and Cody.
GAW, peoples priorities are screwed up.
When my sons turn 13, they will lain (if they can) and the we will sponsor a kiddush for the shul. V’ze hu – and that’s a large expense too! If we can afford it, we may do the laining in Israel.
People have to take their own personal responsibility. the community should not be funding it.
People are very wasteful nowadays – not just simchas. Also with electricity, food abundance/type, cars, jewelry etc.
Don’t get me wrong – I love jewelry. I love to travel. I love good food. But not at my neighbors expense.
Shira to Shira Princess of Power
GAW, that’s a persons own problem and I really hope he doesn’t turn to tzedaka organizations.
Part of the tuition problem is that scholarship committees don’t look at whats causing the massive expenses, just that they are there.
If I take R’ Millers words at face value, there is no reason for me to keep any mitzvot AT ALL. After all, I have no chelek in olam haba. And I’m not planning on getting rid of my TV.
I don’t think you realize how many people have some version of a TV in their house. If you have internet access and don’t filter EVERY website that has a tv show posted, you essentially have a TV. I know plenty of people that “don’t have a tv” and keep up with the latest shows in the internet.
I generally watch TV while folding laundry. Or knitting. Or sewing. Or washing dishes. It takes me through boring household chores when my husband is at minyan, learning, doing other household chores and the kids are sleeping.