Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Then don’t expect people in a MO community to stop saying good shabbos to people on the street. Its disrespectful to come to a community and expect them to adhere to your preference.
Well, halacha doesn’t change but the application may.
In MO areas, its rude and makes people uncomfortable to be ignored. So if you think people should be respectful to chassidim, people should be respectful to MO. It *should* go both ways.
In my family shul, the Rabbi and many congregants wear techeilet (snail kind). I saw a really good writeup on it the other day and I’ll see if I can find it.
I didn’t say he is always calm and listening. We find a quiet corner and I sit with him. Or I’ll hold him in my lap. I talk until he is calm enough and ready to talk. If he is hysterical, I will often put him in an Ergo carrier and walk around with him until he calms down.
I do stern talking to my son and appropriate consequences. Consequences doesn’t mean a spank though.
I thought erva was a halachic status, not necessarily a visual thing. You can’t see “erva” itself, you see body parts or hair that IS erva.
I’m wonderinf if Daughters of Dignity is connected to R’ Falk.
OK, I’ll change it. Thanks!
“SJSinNYC – “I still don’t know what coed functions lead to because I’ve been to many and nothing improper happened.”
I’m going to adresss this one point at a time:
“I still don’t know what coed functions lead to”
Let me spell this out for you: Boys and girls, when they get together, tend to form relationships that rarely end in marriage, but almost without exception leads to issurim.
“I’ve been to many and nothing improper happened.”
Well people aren’t going to do anything improper right in the middle of a public simcha now, are they?”
Aren’t we talking about those of marriagable age? Boy and girl (both in the dating scene) meet at a wedding. Start talking and have stuff in common. Exchange phone numbers. Talk on the phone, set up a date. Date. Get engaged. Get married. Live happily ever after. OR date. Break up. Find their own basherts. Live happily ever after.
Seriously – you are talking about people who are dating. If they can’t control themselves to date properly through the shidduch system, they won’t date properly here.
The whole point of this thread is about mixed seating. As you agree, if there are hundreds of people around nothing improper will happen. When they go privately, it might. Same as any other date.
[As an aside, you would be surprised how many of my right wing friends were not shomer once they got engaged]
Your better argument would be to argue that they might meet someone they like very much who doesn’t meet their hashkafa requirements. Better argument.
I wish for you that you never are faced with a need to potch for any reason
Amen!
BTW one reason these strangers can control kids seemingly better is kids are often afraid of strangers. Not necessarily the potch. I would probably deck a person who threatened my child. [And that women wasn’t disciplining, she was just talking]
Was there something wrong with my link?
Yes, it has your name in it. Even the new link had your name on the page after you click it
PY, I don’t do traditional time outs. We go sit in the corner and talk about what happened and then talk about a solution. If he doesn’t want to sit in the corner he can sit on my lap. This works anywhere.
I also try to find the root cause. Is he bored? Tired? Hungry? Usually when we go out for shabbos meals, one of us plays with the kids after they’ve reached their time of “good” behavior. Kids can’t last that long.
Oomis, I know you gave a time where you use it, but its not necessarily needed. I question whether an 18 month old who doesn’t have the impulse control nor the proper understanding should be given the opportunity to run into the street. Its setting your child up for failure. I believe in age-appropriate expectations.
PY, that doesn’t need a spank, it needs a good time out. And a talk about respecting others property.
Usually spanking is used as a “quick fix” but I want my kids to understand that just like they wouldn’t want someone ruining their property, they shouldn’t ruin other peoples property.
That’s why I generally call spanking “lazy parenting” – its trying to take a shortcut without making your child understand.
Those actions are skillset actions – they need to acquire the right skillset before they can cut with a knife. Or touch the stove. And I should never go into the street wihtout looking, just as he shouldn’t. He understands (at least in his 2 year old mind) that as he gets older he will get more responsibility. With more responsibility, comes more freedom. I understand why you equate hitting in the same category, but I disagree that its something they should ever learn is acceptable.
Also, kids do get to be in positions of power where they are responsible for the discipline of other kids (think babysitting). Spanking will be a tool in their arsenal.
However, that is not the primary reason I am against spanking. I am against it because it doesn’t TEACH your child why the action was wrong or how to rectify it.
Can you name a situation where spanking is necessary and there are no ways around it? So far, no one has been able to.
Mod80, it would be nice to do away with the stigma of meeting someone on your own, especially if its through a kosher outlet (like a wedding or at events designed for people to meet).
Go on a Vegan diet.
Read The China Study. It explains it all.
It also depends how phone conversations go.
A friend had a few great phone conversations with a guy (long distance between them, so they wanted to see if there was a reason to go on a real date). He came in and it was disasterous. She hemmed and hawed and finally went out with him again. It worked wonders. They are happily married with 3 kids for almost 10 years now.
LAer, you are correct – I left out a vital word. Hitting a toddler teaches them that its ACCEPTABLE. Yes my son has hit the baby. Its absolutely a natural response when you don’t have verbal skills. We train ourselves to CONTROL certain responses and I am working to give my son the verbal skills and control through reasoning. He is much better. He does go to daycare and learns negative influences from other children. Right now, we are working on seeing others misbehave and not copying their behavior (specifically at the park and sliding head first down the slide).
Let me give a quick example of how toddlers learn. My son knows we don’t throw toys. This morning, I saw a toy and tossed it into the appropriate basket. I was far enough away from it, that it was a “throw.” One of the next things my son did was take a toy and toss it also. That is how toddlers learn – they imitate. He wasn’t being bad by any stretch of imagination, he was learning from me. Its why as a parent you need to be extra careful in what you say and do. Kids model behavior much faster than they listen to what you say.
A child needs a balance of positive and negative reinforcement, and a happy home life.
PY, I agree with that. But to me, that doesn’t include spanking.
That’s ok Wolf, I don’t expect an answer.
LOL @ squeaks new tag line
I didn’t know people were against them. Will do!
YU has seperate classes and then events that are specifically coed. These events yield many, many couples every year.
Mod-80, I think in the sanctuary itself there should be no talking/socializing.
We have an area in the basement specifically designed for kiddushim and youth rooms.
We are also looking into starting a youth minyan (Bar mitzvah age+). THey are very popular with young teenagers and help them get truly involved in being part of a minyan.
Mod-80, if all your child is doing at shul is playing, then yes that may be problematic.
However, I think shul is more than JUST about davening. Its about community building. Obviously not during services 🙂 But my son can’t sit through all of davening.
Being part of a Jewish community is extremely important – its often the glue that binds people to Judaism when times get tough. People are there for support, love, help and anything else.
That’s why my shul has a kiddush every week (usually small unless there is a simcha). It brings everyone together to build relationships within the community.
But if all your kids do is play and never see the inside of the sanctuary, that is a problem.
LOL I like your post 🙂
I bring the kids to shul and my older son plays downstairs in the playroom for a while. He goes in at the end of Musaf because he can sit quietly until the end. Plus he LOVES singing Adon Olam.
According to what maxwell posted, its ” the adult should hit the child with a small strap (Yorah Daya 245:10).” (emphasis mine)
Is that a poor translation? I don’t have the text in front of me.
Missme, perhaps my superior child rearing has my children behaving so well that I don’t need to spank them. BTW I love the attacks on my religious basis. Makes your argument so much clearer.
Missme, the SA also says to use a switch. Do you advocate using a swithc to spank your kids? So far no one has said they do.
PY, hitting a toddler teaches them to hit. Don’t believe me? I have a few friends that tried and it backfired majorly on them. If you are talking about an older child, maybe. But by then, if they can truly understand cause and effect, why would you spank?
Not spanking doesn’t mean not disciplining.
I turned out great and I wasn’t spanked.
My husband turned out great and he wasn’t spanked.
We’ll stick with discipline without violence.
I’m a woman and agree with Simcha – women walk around in a circle, at least the outer 95%. Its really hard to see on the inside of the circle, even when you are TRYING to.
I still don’t know what coed functions lead to because I’ve been to many and nothing improper happened.
Mod-80, I’m not 100% sure. I was once eating lunch in a nearby park and an Israeli guy came over and started talking to me (I look obviously Jewish LOL). Anyway, it took me a few minutes before I realized who he was. He still really identified with Judaism as well (at least from what he told me – I can only take him at face value).
Jews for J really bother me. At least pick a consistent side. Don’t waffle under “I’m a Jew and I believe in J.” [not that I’m advocating Christianity, but this just really bothers me]
Thank you for the warning 🙂
Those that won’t behave properly in a mixed setting once they reach marriagable age are clearly not ready to get married. So, lets at least let those mature enough to marry meet in a more relaxed setting.
Like Oomis said, most of the men dance. The mechitza doesn’t stop those who want to look. They will look no matter what.
Do you think Tu B’av dancing was wrong? That wasn’t a shidduch system.
There is nothing wrong with meeting your spouse on your own in a kosher outlet. Meeting at a bar is usually problematic. Meeting at a wedding can add another level of simcha to the simcha. Please find me a halachic basis for saying that meeting someone at a wedding is wrong.
So right, if the issue is men watching women dance, the mechitzah doesn’t do a thing. So is your contention that men and women shouldn’t sit at the same table?
Perhaps providing a kosher outlet for people to meet (and yes, a wedding is a kosher outlet), many people would not have to go through the stress of shidduchim. Plus, once you meet a person you have some sort of connection to, you can still do your research to make sure the person is a good person and doesn’t use a plastic tablecloth.
I really want to know what licentiousness occurs around a table of men and women. Perhaps the same licentiousness that would occur at a Shabbos table?
Let me rephrase that: at the mixed seating weddings I’ve been to vs the seperate seating weddings I’ve been to, there have been approximately an equal number of men on the womans side.
I’m not sure what aveiros would occur when you are surrounded by 400 people. But you may meet your bashert!
On Tu B’av women used to dance in the field and the men would pick them. So if you go to a wedding on Tu B’av there should be no reason to have the singles seperated right?
When I go to a simcha, I like to sit with my husband. We work all day and if we spend our precious evenings or sundays at a simcha, I want it to be with him. If we know the affair is seperate seating, often one of us stays home with the kids.
Sister Bear, at the seperate seating weddings I’ve been to, there are plenty of men on the womens side watching dancing too.
Wolf, you really have a great eye. Its impressive.
How did you get started?
My shul limits talking as much as possible. It is a young shul with lots of children, so its not always possible.
The Rabbi did kick out a few congregants for blatantly disrupting davening while talking.
ASF its called a toupee.
But bomb, its halacha! Are you going against the Rambam? And, did your grandfather hit you with a switch? Or his hand? SA says a switch.
As I’ve said, young children CAN be reasoned with. If they can’t, then they don’t really understand what a spank means. They just associate X behavior with pain. At what age do you think kids can be reasoned with? My son was able to handle basic logic at 18 months. He lacked impulse control (and still does sometimes) but that’s a different ballgame.
And I will sidestep the idea that non-Jews don’t know how to love or discipline their children properly purely because they aren’t Jewish. That’s a ridiculous notion that we can debate another time.
Thanks Squeak.
And no, no special reason. His logic is that like all leisure activities, it should be used wisely and correctly. He doesn’t tell me how many hours a week to play chess, nor does he specify limiting TV. He only mentions its necessary to maintain proper programming.
I can’t find the text online, but you quoted “the adult should hit the child with a small strap” – does anyone do this? That sounds really painful.
msseeker, there are poskim who allow you to use YOUR OWN HAIR as sheitels. This is because they rule that only hair ON YOUR HEAD, as in attached by the roots, is actually erva.
And, as I said above, I don’t wear sheitels.
When I asked if watching TV was a problem he said no, just to limit it to non-problematic television.
Max well, he is a talmud of a few well known major poskim in America. I do respect his privacy though. Take it for what its worth, but for me to stop watching TV would be a chumra.
Bomb,
People keep quoting that the SA allows hitting your kids. Halacha allows Beis Din hitting your wife. Would you go to Beis Din to ask them to beat your wife for an infraction? If anyone answers yes, I can pretty much guarantee that your marriage would not withstand that.
Since people wouldn’t do that to their wives, why would they to their children?
As to those studies – I would say that most people DO love their kids. Even the misguided ones. And if they don’t – all it says to me is that its harder to hit with love than you think.
Sure, spanking is quicker. But all the studies I’ve read (and there are a TON out there, its not just one isolated study) say the same thing “Spanking doesn’t teach your children to understand and can cause agression.” So every spanking parent is doing it wrong? Then how can anyone trust themselves?
As to the may or may not have worked – I have yet to come across a situation or child that needed to be spanked. My friends who were spanked have told me stories of why they were spanked. Spankers have told me of times they do spank. None of them seem necessary. Before I had kids I didn’t see what the big deal with spanking was – and then I gave birth to my own. I look at my 2.5 year old and he is so sweet and innocent. Why would I want to teach him that its ok to solve your problems with your hands? That is effectively what you are teaching, whether or not you want to.
And LOL GAW for telling someone to wear a “wife beater” to spank their kids.
There is a big difference between posting commentary from well known major halachic players than disclosing a local Rav’s comments, especially since my Rav is not a pulpit Rabbi. I respect his anonymity. I also understand that his psak may not be applicable to everyone.
A woman’s own hair on her head is erva. Hair off of a woman’s head is not necessarily erva according to poskim. So if hair off her head is not erva, why can’t she wear hair on her head?
A picture of a woman’s body is not halachically allowed, even off of a woman. A man is allowed to look at a wig (if its off a woman’s head).
Max well, wearing sandals worked for thousands of years, but now there are plenty of women who wouldn’t dream of wearing less than 70 denier stockings.
Also, I wasn’t aware that it was a requirement to spank your kids. I thought it was allowed. There is a difference. If I am wrong, please point out where in the SA it says you must spank as opposed to using other acceptable forms of discipline that work. I would like to make sure I am following halacha.
Meaning, a woman’s body is ALWAYS erva no matter what. A woman’s hair is NOT always erva (pre-marriage, post divorce with a heter, in her courtyard etc).
Helpful, hair is not objectively erva. A woman’s body is at all times. Hair is NOT. There are sources that state just a woman’s hair ATTACHED TO HER HEAD (as Dave Hirsch posted above). If its not attached to her head, its no longer erva.
Not everyone holds according to the same thing. To each their own.