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An old thread? Or you actually know me?
Squeak, did you look for me on onlysimchas?
Mazal tov!
Moq, there is absolutely a variety of feelings. But in general, its hard to love someone you’ve known for 2-3 months. Knowing your fiancee for longer (usually 9-12 months) means you are generally more likely to already love your spouse, not just like and admire them.
I don’t think I’ve ever heard a MO person say “I’ll grow to love him” but I have heard quite a few Yeshivish people say it. Note the “in general” – its not an ironclad rule.
At a bare minimum, your spouse should be your best friend. Shalom bayis is much easier when you love and respect the person you are with.
In general, MO people marry already loving their spouse. Yeshivish people grow to love their spouse. Neither is better, just different (although I could not have married someone I didn’t love).
I would rather my children have a cell phone that I can monitor than a prepaid one that I cannot control.
I am not of the opinion that cell phones are inherently dangerous, especially if you teach your children how to use them properly. Even better if you monitor them and ask them who’s numbers they are.
2morecents, you reference “kids” in their 20s – they are adults at that point. Often married with children of their own. You also reference chinuch – chinuch is not just about avoiding anything that possibly could become treif (otherwise, we wouldn’t eat cheese and hamburgers lest we combine them). Chinuch is about teaching your children the proper way to use communication tools.
Dr Pepper, I think the stigma is slowly eroding. My 27 year old cousin just married a 26 year old guy. I married a guy 31 days my junior 🙂
I agree with BP Totty.
Oh and Dr Pepper – how did you remember it was my anniversary? We celebrated by going to a mutual friend’s wedding and we reminisced while we were there.
It is a safety issue while driving.
Nowadays, I don’t stop if I see someone broken down on the side of the road, as I assume they have a cell phone and can make their own call. If cell phones weren’t common, I would stop. I feel the risk of stopping with little kids when the chance of the person NOT having a cell phone, is not worth it. Even if the people are frum.
When my tire blew out on my car, I was able to call AAA, my husband and my friend who I was driving to. If I hadn’t, I might have been stuck on the NJ Turnpike on Shabbos. You don’t think a woman alone, stuck on a highway, is a safety risk?
As to trusting your kids – monitor their usage! Disable internet if you would like (its disabled on my phone). Don’t allow texts or minimize amount and who they can send to. And most of all MONITOR them. Trust but verify.
AZ, it will change who meets which means men may marry older women. Isnt that what you are aiming for?
When I was in high school, cell phones were just coming in vogue. I many girls travelled to school (about an hour commute) and those that drove had cell phones. I think its important if your child is driving to have a way to call someone in case of emergency. Even at 16.
Yit, a man still has halachic obligations to his pilegesh, even if she doesn’t get a ketubah. Its still an attached relationship, just a lesser one.
Yit, a pilegesh is a sort of marriage. Today, pilegesh is not acceptable at all. At least, I haven’t heard it is.
If the age gap theory is right, then yes, there is a rush. As a girl gets older, her prospects diminsh because more and more men are married. So when she is 18-19 she can date up to 27 or so. When she is 22 she can also, but she most likely loses out on the 20-21 year olds.
So if I say that people should wait to get married to finish their education and have a stable job, no one would agree because where is the bitachon?
But its ok to say you don’t need to get married young if your older sibling hasn’t found anyone, limiting your own chances and prospects.
Women actually don’t NEED to get married at all. In fact, with the industrial revolution and as womens liberation has progressed, women need men less and less. Perhaps this should be a spinoff thread though.
Yes but I’m not sharing my husband.
Sensitivity does not mean NEEDS.
I started dating my husband before my sister had found anyone. We had talked about our engagement before she found anyone. She ended up meeting her ex husband, dating and getting married before we did, but I certainly didn’t ask her.
Make sure more girls go OTD to equal out the playing field. Conversely, make sure to be mekarev more boys than girls to equal out the playing field.
An older sibling needs to give her/his blessing and permission to a younger sibling to date and marry before them.
Are you saying that halchically, if so I would like a source.
Otherwise, I see NO reason that a younger sibling needs to ask permission. If the older sibling says no, then the younger one has to wait? It gives power to the older sibling that the older sibling should NOT have.
So guilty until proven innocent huh?
Maybe I’m just too cheap to pay for internet on my cell phone LOL.
I don’t think comparing a cell phone to a loaded gun is a fair statement. Leaving internet aside (its really easy to block internet on phones), in order to text or call someone, you need their number. So in order for someone to do something wrong with their phone, they need some way to figure out a persons number AND call AND have a willing accomplice.
I personally like having a cell phone in case of emergency. While I am at a desk most of the day, I do go out to various power plants. I want to be reachable if someone needs me.
I never said cell phones ar ethe greatest thing to give a teenager. I personally got on when I was 21 – long after all my friends had them.
But if you teach your kids to use tools properly, and take basic precautions (like disabling internet) then your kids should be fine. They can make the same phone call from a pay phone…
This has become a society of “restrict everything you can think possibly may cause someone at some point eventually to possible think about almost doing something that may slightly be inapprorpiate.” There is a limit – we need to balance chinuch with trust. Know your child.
My mother’s mantra – she always told us that she trusted us and we didn’t want to lose that. My mother had minimal, fair rules for us and we followed them. Obviously, this won’t work for all kids, but know your child. If they are the suspect for these types of problems, give them a different set of rules. But please, set them up to SUCCEED so that they gain confidence in themselves and know they can overcome challenges.
There are plenty of reasons for kids to have cell phones.
In fact, not everyone who has a cell phone uses it improperly.
Teach your kids to behave properly, teach them boundaries, establish a loving, trusting relationship with them and set them up to succeed.
In my opinion, no.
Each person finds their bashert at a different time and no one should be help up because of “order.”
However, if your sibling is really close in age, I think its a nice idea to give them a short while (like 6 months) before you start dating. Not necessary though.
Its like the kid doesnt even belong to you. It belongs to the government and if you “ruin” government property you go to jail.
The child is a human being. No one owns them. They are people. This attitude flabbergasts me. People aren’t property.
Sister Bear – “The check was in the mail”
I would imagine that in the times of the Gemara, a rebbi was different than today. Back then you had much smaller classes and they stuck with their teacher throughout the years. Yes, I am sure they came to love their students (although parents still generally love their children more than anyone!).
In today’s situation where teachers have new students every year and classes are 20+ students, I do not think they love their students as their parents do. Unless you have very low standards of love for your children.
And this thread makes me so sad that parents would allow their children to be struck by their teachers.
Wolf, depends if its actually endothermic or exothermic LOL
Don’t worry Wolf, I’ll join you 🙂
BP Totty, I think under NO circumstances should anyone threaten my child with violence nor actually carry it out. I slightly understand (though don’t agree) with a parent spanking their child, but no one loves your child like you do.
And Poppa, I wish we had a thumbs up emoticon!
CPS doesn’t usually whisk kids away unless there is abuse or serious neglect. They usually try to work with parents to give them child care classes to help family situations. CPS does not want to remove children from loving homes for no reason – they want to provide each child with a stable, solid home.
I would rather ensure a child’s physical safety and then worry about their spiritual safety. They can’t perform mitzvos if they are dead (and dying because your parent neglected to watch you in the street is not a kiddush hashem).
Bomb, you want me to pay you when I have free entertainment?
They know we dress a certain way and have a certain way we should act.
Like 18th century polish royalty?
mw13, are you married? If so, try that.
If not, pressure your parents to attempt only speaking as much as necessary.
Wolf, our good friend MosheRose would disagree with you 🙂
“60% of “frum” kids sleeping around”
There is no way this is true across the board. There are some schools that are known as “party schools” like Rutgers. But most schools – absolutely not.
I have many, many friends who went to coed colleges and they did not give in to temptations. In fact, aside from one who was looking to leave halacha behind from the moment she stepped onto campus, all stayed 100% frum.
(aside from the fact that dorming in college is a different story than coed functions)
Popa, I looked. But that’s because I knew it would be some thing of the sort 🙂
Wise people also realize that today, not talking to your wife unless its 100% tachlis will be detrimental to your marriage.
Squeak, the extra picture is of the two of them.
I can’t imagine a mother would leave her 4 year old to watch her 2 year old!
Moq, I don’t necessarily agree with seperating teenagers (especially if they are cousins), but I understand the point.
As to singles – the naive Bais Yaakov girl will start dating the guy and see that he has no intention of proposing. She will then break it off. The same thing could occur in the shidduch scene – guy dates but has no real plans to marry. I know many girls who started this way and ended up marrying as well (my friend came back from seminary and started dating because “thats what you do” and she had no desire to actually date, but she met a great guy and got married). I started dating my husband in college without thinking I was ever getting married, but we made it work.
IME, most people hitting thier early 20s at least are ready to date for tachlis. From MO to Chassidish (and of course some are ready at 18). At that age, meeting the right person may sway you from “not right now” to “lets get married.”
Agian, no need to totally abandon the research. Children should turn to their parents for advice as well. And they should have serious conversations up front no matter what. This is not unique to the shidduch system.
As to married people – those who want to cheat on thier spouses will find ways and reasons. I’ve never seen it BECAUSE of a mixed event. We host shabbos company all the time. We all socialize together. One day I called my friend and asked her to go to the park with her son – she couldn’t come so her husband and son came instead. Our kids played and I had a nice time with her husband. V’zehu. Conversations were 100% kosher. The only way to prevent these problems is 100% isolation to the extreme – women locked up at home never to leave. Men never to see another woman.
I understand not encouraging relationships between married men and women, but the same way you can host them for shabbos meals, you can seat them together at a wedding.
And mw13, its not the boy with the longer list, its the boy who actuall dates more people who is more exposed to the risk. If he has a long list, but marries the first one, that’s it.
And why do you call it a tayvah? They want to get married. Initial meeting point is often a moot point. Do you think MO people who meet on their own are just “in it for the tayvah”? Or do you think there is a chance they want to get married. Or is that just a yeshivish thing?
So a boy with lists of girls is therefore more likely to sin than a boy with less prospects? People don’t stand around at a wedding and say “Who do I sin with next?” They say “This seems like a nice person, let me get to know them better.” Like a date.
No one said to eliminate research. Doing research after you get started just means you have to weigh pros and cons of a person not of a paper.
Wolf, I agree except for the child at play. The world NEEDS 15,000,213 pictures of my children smiling.
Chazal prohibited the use of flammable material to wipe excrement off ones body. Today, we use toilet paper.
That’s really interesting. What was their logic? Can you provide a source?
Additionally, you can’t have a mixed wedding only for the 18 – 23 year olds whilst excluding the 13 – 16 year olds from mixing as well.
Why not?
I was just at a wedding where family was seperated, and only the couples friends were mixed.
And Helpful, yes, someone who is going to transgress halacha after meeting someone at a wedding will transgress halacha after meeting someone on a blind date.
Perhaps getting over some of our research and meeting the person may make for happy marriages that may or may not have happened anyway. I think all our research does more harm than good.
Edited
Is there ever a point where a parent doesn’t want to hug their child? That is awful in and of itself.
What, I love the alleyway picture! That is fantastic!
BP, I love shadow and reflection shots.Good job.
Thank you for the compliments. I think its a butterfly (but I don’t actually know the difference LOL). We have a butterfly bush in our backyard, so we get frequent butterflies. I don’t really take credit for the picture because G-d provided the nature and Canon provided the camera settings LOL. I use a nice Canon point and shoot as I am not responsible enough to handle a dSLR. I break electronics too easily.
Hopefully this weekend I’ll be able to put up some more. I have an amazing picture from the Great Barrier reef of the coral above the water. And some beautiful Iceland pictures and some other great ones.
This is a really great thread Wolf!
Bomb, for some reason I don’t like books on tape. I never have. I love reading though!
As to yichud – I am NOT suggesting doing away with halacha in any way shape or form. But is sitting at a table with someone who may be your bashert for 3 hours with 400 people in the room will not lead to licentiousness any more than being in a hotel lobby will.
Moq, I think you are missing my point. During coed functions with adults (we can debate teenage years as a different point), nothing happens in the open. If something happens, in private, it would have happened anyway. We are talking about people who are dating for marriage. Can you trust them on a date?
At the point where someone is of marriagable age and dating, if they meet someone and are committed to halacha, they will date properly. If they aren’t, they won’t date properly. That is whether or not they meet by shadchan.
If you want to argue about seperating teenagers during events (like weddings, speeches, concerts), I think its a much better argument than saying to seperate those of marriagable age who have the chance to meet.
As to research, there is nothing to say you can’t research someone once you meet them. Then you make the decision of “do this persons benefits outweigh their drawbacks.” I met my husband in college and we were on different spectrums. I am MO, he was much more RW. We decided to make it work. We found ways to make our relationship work despite our hashkafic differences (which when we drilled down to it, were not that different). We were also willing to do things for each other (like me being more machmir on certain things or him not doing things that were society based not halachically based)…we made that decision. No one would have ever set us up.
Now to college students on campus – you need to seperate the categories of college kids. There are groups who are looking for freedom from Judaism, those who are committed to Judaism and those who want their fun and then they will repent. If you take the group who wants to remain committed, I doubt that number is 60%.
Again, I’m not denying that there are occassions that encourage licentiousness. I am arguing that mixed seating at weddings, concerts, speeches etc are NOT going to encourage it.
I don’t really tabulate my hours. As I said, I watch TV while doing other things. I work during the day and do household chores at night. I am not neglecting my children nor my spouse.
I was visiting my sister and she was telling me how nice it was to have company while she folded laundry. Otherwise she finds it boring. I would rather not be bored while doing laundry – I don’t see the purpose in it. I’m not a big fan of music nor talk radio, nor do I want anything cerebral. So TV fits the bill.
I think notsooldguy hit the nail on the head. I’m not advocating others to watch TV. I understand why people choose to keep it out of their homes.
Where is Yoshi when you need her? LOL
Who said my son doesn’t listen to authority?
When I can’t deal with him at the moment I say “Mommy needs to do XYZ and you need to ABC.” He goes and does what I say. I rarely use this and he recognizes that he absolutely needs to listen. If he pauses, I point to where I want him to go and he does.
In the case of the cookies, I would ask the person to hold, tell my son no cookie right now and move them out of reach. He is welcome to carry on with a tantrum (without destroying things) and I will move to a different room. [Or I might move him out of the kitchen because our kitchen is hazardous and he can’t be in there alone, but that’s a seperate issue]
In general, if I was about to do something that would require my son to leave me alone for a while, I would make sure he was taken care of before starting. A lot of time, parents set their kids up for failure (not necessarily on purpose).
I doubt my son is an abberation – he is a normal, healthy child. He understands the limits we set for him. He tests them sure, but he realizes when we mean absolute business.
OK Squeak, I will trust you.
The reason for the halacha is that hair is erva. Period. [At least that’s the way I was taught] Otherwise, single women would not be allowed to wear hats ever as its a sign of being married. Or a woman could just wear a large sandwichboard sign that says “I’m married” (and sell advertising on it to make more money).